SlipNet
The Living Force
Sorry about that, it's been a busy Sunday visiting friends and family, should have checked back on the thread.
Coronavirus Pandemic: Apocalypse Now! Or exaggerated scare story?
- Thread starter wanderingthomas
- Start date
Sorry about that, it's been a busy Sunday visiting friends and family, should have checked back on the thread.
Nearly all information from China - in English anyway - comes from decidedly Chinese UN-friendly sources, especially Hong Kong and Taiwanese outlets.
They have a vested interest in spinning their reporting on this for political gain.
Similarly, when you see a video of a 'Wuhan resident desperately trying to speak out' and she name-drops her 'support for the people of Hong Kong', that's a clue as to its inherent unreliability.
The thing that bothers me about all of this, is that if one believes the official story then the virus is much ado about nothing, however this then highlights the curiously disproportionate response from Chinese government. The mercantilist Chinese, who still have large swaths of their economy working in basically sweatshop conditions, are going to cost their economy hundreds of billions of dollars with this quarantine just because of a nasty case of the common cold, or because they care so much? I don't think so. The concept of "face," appearing to have status and competency, i.e. looking good over actually being good, is a deeply ingrained trait of the Chinese bureaucracy. These people have to maintain the mask that they are nearly omniscient Confucian Communist sages, otherwise the populace will lose their faith in them, begin to question and criticize, and really have no reason to follow them and be obedient any longer. Their "mandate of heaven" will be lost and Xi is just another emperor whose position has been modified for modern times. It has long been suspected that Chinese economic statistics are exaggerated, because they don't match up with other indicators, such as electricity consumption, or money is being poured into nonproductive investments, substandard buildings, and marginal infrastructure buildouts which really don't have much rate of return. But for the moment, the economy appears to be booming and everyone looks good. European cultures have come to rely increasingly on this type of activity to conceal the fact that there is nothing "real" in their economies and they are in fact collapsing. So in a way the East and the West are learning the worst behavior from each other. European bureaucrats that engage in this type of behavior usually have some kind of "golden parachute" lined up where they can jump into wealth and obscurity behind a wall of litigious protections when they're caught, whereas in China causing a significant loss of face to the top brass is liable to make them to say "off with their heads." These people have every incentive to cover up the true extent of any crisis to avoid being crucified from both above and below. I doubt that Xi himself had a clear picture of what was going on until fairly recently. Now Xi is in the position of figuring out how to "manage" the situation without losing his head. It's entirely possible that he had a huge mess dumped in his lap and has joined the brigade of liars as a calculated move to hide the severity of the situation and preserve his regime. China's totalitarian leanings, even if they've been restrained in the last couple of decades, coupled with the social credit panopticon, make it much easier to cover up the truth if the elites decide that is in the best interest of the collective. Therefore, the idea that the Chinese are covering up a sub-apocalyptic pandemic (I think the real pandemic will be more like Ebola) has a lot of credence with me, however there are other possibilities I've considered.
It is possible that the numbers being reported are accurate, and the source of the epidemic is an accidental release from the Wuhan biolab. All of the above comments from the previous scenario apply, but this would be a much better situation for Xi and basically a non-event for the rest of the world. The "overreaction" could be justified as intervention by Xi where he had to make amends for a problem caused by some incompetent underlings with lax regulatory standards. Xi can make of point of trying the best that he could to prevent loss of life, publicly dispose of the underlings in question, and use the experience to enforce some better regulations to prevent it from happening again. Xi comes out looking like a hero which makes his position stronger.
It is also possible the virus is natural and is being used as a pretense to eliminate a lot of CIA sponsored fifth columnists as well as clamp down on separatist groups and refine the social credit system. The Chinese are tired of the US trying to inflict a death by a thousand cuts and have finally decided that enough is enough. The threat of global supply chain disruptions may also provide some leverage with the US. There is still enough confidence in the Chinese central bank to provide stimulus to idle Chinese businesses and keep the economy from locking up. What will the Americans do when they can no longer clothe themselves? All of the Fed's cleverness and financial sleight of hand cannot print the finished goods required to keep the lights on in the US. Americans will have to accept the fact that they cannot dictate terms, and will have to institute some serious reforms to the way the country is run, or content themselves to watching the US implode from a self-inflicted wound.
I also find it quite possible that the virus is a very specially prepared bioweapon, engineered by the US deep state (specifically Faction B), and designed to be released in a very specific manner by fifth columnists. The reason the virus has such a low death rate for a bioweapon, is that the purpose is not to completely decimate and occupy China (a very costly and uncertain proposition) but to institute a state of controlled chaos, weakening China enough that it will bend the knee to the US empire. The virus is surreptitiously and intentionally spread to keep the Chinese authorities busy playing whack-a-mole while confidence in their economy steadily crumbles. Global manufacturing conglomerates suddenly consider China to be a risk-adverse environment and there is massive capital flight out of China as production capacity is relocated. China goes into a depression, more than their central bank can print them out of, and survives, but in a weakened state. The message to those in the know would be that the US empire can make any country, like China was made in the last 30 years, and it can also unmake any country, even the mightiest. This is the reason for the totally disproportionate lockdown in China, a covert war is being fought in their country and they're trying to get a handle on it. They suspect the US is behind it, which is why they won't let any US based agencies in, but they can't prove it yet. I lean toward this fourth scenario personally, but I find the other three to be perfectly plausible. Some of the manufacturing is repatriated, giving Trump a boost at home, in exchange for some quid pro quo at some deep and obscure level with him.
Karl Denninger seems to believe that the transmissibility of the virus seemingly exclusively in mainland China is due to poor sanitation standards, presumably in regards to fecal matter. China is arguably the most polluted country in the world and there has been little regard for environmental conditions, economic growth has been prioritized at all costs. It became so bad that it was causing widespread discontent across China. While the government has made some gestures toward fixing the problem, reducing pollution cuts into profits and raises the cost of living, and is hard to get a handle on even if the government is serious. Also, Chinese toilets have a reputation for being a bit dirty, outside of the upscale areas there is often no soap in the bathrooms and you bring your own toilet paper. I've never been to mainland China, but have been to other rural parts of SE Asia where this was the case. While I did keep a little bit of toilet paper on my person just in case, I didn't make a habit of carrying soap around. On the odd occasion I had to use a public restroom, whatever was on my hands stayed on my hands until I got back to my room. So it is another factor to consider with these scenarios.
It is possible that the numbers being reported are accurate, and the source of the epidemic is an accidental release from the Wuhan biolab. All of the above comments from the previous scenario apply, but this would be a much better situation for Xi and basically a non-event for the rest of the world. The "overreaction" could be justified as intervention by Xi where he had to make amends for a problem caused by some incompetent underlings with lax regulatory standards. Xi can make of point of trying the best that he could to prevent loss of life, publicly dispose of the underlings in question, and use the experience to enforce some better regulations to prevent it from happening again. Xi comes out looking like a hero which makes his position stronger.
It is also possible the virus is natural and is being used as a pretense to eliminate a lot of CIA sponsored fifth columnists as well as clamp down on separatist groups and refine the social credit system. The Chinese are tired of the US trying to inflict a death by a thousand cuts and have finally decided that enough is enough. The threat of global supply chain disruptions may also provide some leverage with the US. There is still enough confidence in the Chinese central bank to provide stimulus to idle Chinese businesses and keep the economy from locking up. What will the Americans do when they can no longer clothe themselves? All of the Fed's cleverness and financial sleight of hand cannot print the finished goods required to keep the lights on in the US. Americans will have to accept the fact that they cannot dictate terms, and will have to institute some serious reforms to the way the country is run, or content themselves to watching the US implode from a self-inflicted wound.
I also find it quite possible that the virus is a very specially prepared bioweapon, engineered by the US deep state (specifically Faction B), and designed to be released in a very specific manner by fifth columnists. The reason the virus has such a low death rate for a bioweapon, is that the purpose is not to completely decimate and occupy China (a very costly and uncertain proposition) but to institute a state of controlled chaos, weakening China enough that it will bend the knee to the US empire. The virus is surreptitiously and intentionally spread to keep the Chinese authorities busy playing whack-a-mole while confidence in their economy steadily crumbles. Global manufacturing conglomerates suddenly consider China to be a risk-adverse environment and there is massive capital flight out of China as production capacity is relocated. China goes into a depression, more than their central bank can print them out of, and survives, but in a weakened state. The message to those in the know would be that the US empire can make any country, like China was made in the last 30 years, and it can also unmake any country, even the mightiest. This is the reason for the totally disproportionate lockdown in China, a covert war is being fought in their country and they're trying to get a handle on it. They suspect the US is behind it, which is why they won't let any US based agencies in, but they can't prove it yet. I lean toward this fourth scenario personally, but I find the other three to be perfectly plausible. Some of the manufacturing is repatriated, giving Trump a boost at home, in exchange for some quid pro quo at some deep and obscure level with him.
Karl Denninger seems to believe that the transmissibility of the virus seemingly exclusively in mainland China is due to poor sanitation standards, presumably in regards to fecal matter. China is arguably the most polluted country in the world and there has been little regard for environmental conditions, economic growth has been prioritized at all costs. It became so bad that it was causing widespread discontent across China. While the government has made some gestures toward fixing the problem, reducing pollution cuts into profits and raises the cost of living, and is hard to get a handle on even if the government is serious. Also, Chinese toilets have a reputation for being a bit dirty, outside of the upscale areas there is often no soap in the bathrooms and you bring your own toilet paper. I've never been to mainland China, but have been to other rural parts of SE Asia where this was the case. While I did keep a little bit of toilet paper on my person just in case, I didn't make a habit of carrying soap around. On the odd occasion I had to use a public restroom, whatever was on my hands stayed on my hands until I got back to my room. So it is another factor to consider with these scenarios.
There are lot Western video's that is blaming the Chinese Govt. for all this. I guess their logic is "since we don't know the facts, we can assume the worst and blame the Govt. for every thing".
There are some you tube channel ( run by people who lived before and had privileged inside information there) who has consistently get 100,000's views very vocal in saying "Don't praise the Chinese" because they are corrupt, WHO was bought by the Chinese Govt. etc. Their logic start with seriousness of situation and some how they twist it on Govt. control to blame for every thing on them.
If this type of things happen in any other country , it would have much disastrous due to so called "liberties".
Most western video's tend to limit the Silk road project to the Fear of Changes ( to their existing life style and local Govt.'s inability to pay back etc.) comes with it. Any way, some of the documentaries related to DW's " New Silk Road" posted on this thread led me to some other video's.
Here is one called " The New Silk Road" made by Singapore website called CNA(Channel New Asia). It has 5 seasons with each season 4 to 6 episodes. It goes very detailed in to the project. I only watched first episode of the first season(2015) that shows the grand projects of 2 provinces next to the Hubei province and it made me say "WOW" about their plans and how much World depends on them. Of course, we know the dependency, but watching it is different. This also made me think, if Chinese doesn't control the epidemic, the World will go down along with them big time.
Season 1 Episode 1 - China's plan to change the world: This episode covers 2 cities neighboring Hubei province - ChongQing and Xi'an
Obviously none of this makes it to the Western Media, who wants make a point of how bad china Govt. is , due to lack of political expression and Corona Virus.
There are some you tube channel ( run by people who lived before and had privileged inside information there) who has consistently get 100,000's views very vocal in saying "Don't praise the Chinese" because they are corrupt, WHO was bought by the Chinese Govt. etc. Their logic start with seriousness of situation and some how they twist it on Govt. control to blame for every thing on them.
If this type of things happen in any other country , it would have much disastrous due to so called "liberties".
Most western video's tend to limit the Silk road project to the Fear of Changes ( to their existing life style and local Govt.'s inability to pay back etc.) comes with it. Any way, some of the documentaries related to DW's " New Silk Road" posted on this thread led me to some other video's.
Here is one called " The New Silk Road" made by Singapore website called CNA(Channel New Asia). It has 5 seasons with each season 4 to 6 episodes. It goes very detailed in to the project. I only watched first episode of the first season(2015) that shows the grand projects of 2 provinces next to the Hubei province and it made me say "WOW" about their plans and how much World depends on them. Of course, we know the dependency, but watching it is different. This also made me think, if Chinese doesn't control the epidemic, the World will go down along with them big time.
Season 1 Episode 1 - China's plan to change the world: This episode covers 2 cities neighboring Hubei province - ChongQing and Xi'an
Obviously none of this makes it to the Western Media, who wants make a point of how bad china Govt. is , due to lack of political expression and Corona Virus.
SOTTREADER
The Living Force
Just documenting this here - IT COULD BE FAKE NEWS
The caller sounds like the husband of a lady who works in a hospital in New York state.
He says that 6 patients have been tested positive for the Corona virus at that hospital but the CDC has kept it hidden. It sounds like the patients themselves haven't even been told about it. These patients only have mild symptoms.
He also says the hospitals round where he is don't have the necessary things in place to handle an outbreak.
Anyways, if what he says is true, then it'll become self evident soon enough - multiple cases will start cropping up round that area and soon enough it'll be in the media.
Let's wait and see what transpires.
The caller sounds like the husband of a lady who works in a hospital in New York state.
He says that 6 patients have been tested positive for the Corona virus at that hospital but the CDC has kept it hidden. It sounds like the patients themselves haven't even been told about it. These patients only have mild symptoms.
He also says the hospitals round where he is don't have the necessary things in place to handle an outbreak.
Anyways, if what he says is true, then it'll become self evident soon enough - multiple cases will start cropping up round that area and soon enough it'll be in the media.
Let's wait and see what transpires.
Nević Nenad
The Living Force
So, coronavirus is actually just a flu, plus exercise in panic and disinformation in the West, and exercise in organisation and discipline in China . . . .
United Gnosis
Jedi Council Member
Yeah, but no. You don't quarantine a tenth of the human population and threaten global supply chains just for the hell of it. India had reason to believe it was weaponized, I'd tend towards using the explanation that it was a research virus for hypervaccine research as a default hypothesis. What's for sure is that India had legitimate reason (previous biological attack by china) to be on the watch, and despite the university study was retracted, they opened a wider investigation that seems to be taken seriously by multiple countries. The US is preparing military readiness, China too, the coronacruise boat went from about 60 cases to 300+ in nearly a week. Many had jumped on the bandwagon, equating the lack of ethnic epidemiological data as evidence that the virus specifically targeted the chinese. Well, we might not have had enough data, but I do believe we'll have it soon enough.
Sure, even some here on this forum scoff at the 'low' 1-2% death rate, but remember - that is the best case scenario. The virus sends 20% to the hospital, nearly 10% to the ICU - once hospitals are well and truly impacted, from the supply lines to ill staff, overburdened quarantine and ICU spaces, then you'll see - because if these 20% do _not_ receive appropriate medical care, then the death rate might easily rise to 5-10%.
Not that I'm intending to dramatize, but I think it's very important to stay open-minded. I see easy dismissals in the same way I was seeing easy panic a week or two ago. I don't think the data is in to make a call yet.
Some of it sounds sketchy, but might be because it is hearsay. For example, I can't imagine a medical office having only 20 masks on hand. They come in boxes of 50 and most offices (even small ones) order by the case of many boxes. Time will tell.
It could well be that suspect cases are asked to self quarantine, but he would not know that. I also cannot imagine that patients would not be notified of test results, once available. And he would have no way of knowing about that either.
The first confirmed case of a Russian national getting coronavirus:
www.rferl.org
While they don't say her ethnicity, this could be one of the first cases of a non-East Asian getting the virus. Guess we'll have to wait and see though.
Woman On Cruise Ship Becomes First Russian Infected With Coronavirus
A Russian woman on board the Diamond Princess cruise ship quarantined off the coast of Japan has tested positive for the coronavirus, Russia's Embassy in Tokyo said on February 17.
www.rferl.org
While they don't say her ethnicity, this could be one of the first cases of a non-East Asian getting the virus. Guess we'll have to wait and see though.
Zerohedge
ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
www.zerohedge.com
The World Health Organization has held talks with tech giants to stop the spread of coronavirus “misinformation,” despite the fact that some things once labeled “misinformation” have since turned out to be true.
The meeting was organized by the WHO but hosted by Facebook at its Menlo Park campus in California. Attendees included representatives from Amazon, Twilio, Dropbox, Google, Verizon, Salesforce, Twitter, YouTube, Airbnb, Kinsa and Mapbox.
According to the WHO’s Andy Pattison, an “infodemic” of misinformation has accompanied the coronavirus outbreak and big tech giants need to respond by censoring “fake news” content.
Both Facebook and Twitter already announced that they would remove content deemed to be misinformation regarding the virus, a dangerous new lurch to mass censorship given that what is considered “misinformation” is totally subjective and beholden to partisan bias.
Two clear examples of “misinformation” surrounding the coronavirus subsequently turned out to be true.
Once again, the media defamed anyone who even talked about the bio-lab in Wuhan as a fake news conspiracy theorist.
Now biological scientists from the prestigious South China University of Technology have concluded that coronavirus came from a bio-lab in Wuhan.
latest news from WHO
www.theguardian.com
Covid-19, the new coronavirus that has killed nearly 1,800 people in China, causes only mild disease in four out of five people who get it, the World Health Organization has said.
“It appears that Covid-19 is not as deadly as other coronaviruses, including Sars and Mers,” said the WHO director general, Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, adding that officials were “starting to get a clearer picture of the outbreak”.
The conclusion comes from analysis of data from Chinese authorities relating to 44,000 cases of Covid-19 in Hubei province, where the coronavirus was first recorded.
“More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover, 14% have severe disease including pneumonia and shortness of breath, 5% have critical disease including respiratory failure, septic shock and multi-organ failure, and 2% of cases are fatal,” Tedros said in Geneva. “The risk of death increases the older you are.”
Coronavirus causes mild disease in four in five patients, says WHO
Covid-19 not as deadly as Sars, figures show, and children not affected in same way as adults
Covid-19, the new coronavirus that has killed nearly 1,800 people in China, causes only mild disease in four out of five people who get it, the World Health Organization has said.
“It appears that Covid-19 is not as deadly as other coronaviruses, including Sars and Mers,” said the WHO director general, Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, adding that officials were “starting to get a clearer picture of the outbreak”.
The conclusion comes from analysis of data from Chinese authorities relating to 44,000 cases of Covid-19 in Hubei province, where the coronavirus was first recorded.
“More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover, 14% have severe disease including pneumonia and shortness of breath, 5% have critical disease including respiratory failure, septic shock and multi-organ failure, and 2% of cases are fatal,” Tedros said in Geneva. “The risk of death increases the older you are.”
CDC body language on the subject:
bombardsbodylanguage.com
Body Language – CDC Coronavirus Warning
Note: All comments in my videos are strictly my opinion. [cryptothanks]
bombardsbodylanguage.com
Sol Logos
The Living Force
Anyone seen the movie Cassandra Crossing? It's on YouTube:
It's a pandemic movie, a manufacturered strain of the pneumonic plague gets released because of an attempted theft. Terrorists tried to steal the biological weapons and in the process got infected while trying to escape the scene. One of the escapees gets on a long distance train. The rest of the story is about how the WHO and the US military attempt to contain the whole thing. The train became a quarantined while destined for a major cover up via a train "accident". Was done in 1976. Reminds me a bit of this caronavirus situation.
nature
Dagobah Resident
I ordered some goods in batches (like silk fabrics, lasertherapy, etc) 2-3 weeks ago from China but nothing have been sent. One of the employees said that she goes to vacations and will deal with my order later without giving the date of her return. I first believed, then realized that the real reason is quarantine. Another said they will give the quotations later, without saying why. Usually the order is quick, made in the second. Another one said he will give it when he'll be back in his office, I wait since 2 weeks. So, it's sure there are at home for quarantine. Chinese people are discret and don't say more, and they are here for business, not for telling about their life. Some of my goods have been sent before quarantine but are held at the shipper's.
So, exports seem to be stopped.
The question is why the quarantine when the propagation nearly stopped? Why not only people's trips outside the country are stopped but also products'? Thus, I came to the idea developped by Neil above: to show the West that we are dependent on them, that santionning someone who nourishes and dresses you is ridiculous.
Not only clothes and materials, but also medicaments. Imagine an epidemic here, how will we treat population? We no more produce raw materials, there are no more pharmaceuticals factories in Europe producing raw pharmaceutical drugs. Pharmaceutical laboratories here buy all raw powders from China, at low price, and assemble them here in tablets and capsules and sell them to us at a very high and indecent price. So, the message to the West leaders is (just my feeling): if you devastate us by a bioweapon or by ridiculous sanctions, you penalize your own population; no dressed, no comfort, no treatments if you are ill ... But our leaders don't mind our living and health. They, they will not be touched, they always have what they want.
Bioweapon is just a speculation, we'll never know. It's also possible that it is a virus from space brought by a meteor landing in chinese skies. As nCov19 has not been so severe, maybe it has brought a certain protection against a real futur bioweapon ? A natural vaccine without mercury
Yeah wishful thinking I know, but I like the idea of the Univers' gift to protect a kind and hard-working population against jealous foreign elite.
So, exports seem to be stopped.
The question is why the quarantine when the propagation nearly stopped? Why not only people's trips outside the country are stopped but also products'? Thus, I came to the idea developped by Neil above: to show the West that we are dependent on them, that santionning someone who nourishes and dresses you is ridiculous.
Not only clothes and materials, but also medicaments. Imagine an epidemic here, how will we treat population? We no more produce raw materials, there are no more pharmaceuticals factories in Europe producing raw pharmaceutical drugs. Pharmaceutical laboratories here buy all raw powders from China, at low price, and assemble them here in tablets and capsules and sell them to us at a very high and indecent price. So, the message to the West leaders is (just my feeling): if you devastate us by a bioweapon or by ridiculous sanctions, you penalize your own population; no dressed, no comfort, no treatments if you are ill ... But our leaders don't mind our living and health. They, they will not be touched, they always have what they want.
Bioweapon is just a speculation, we'll never know. It's also possible that it is a virus from space brought by a meteor landing in chinese skies. As nCov19 has not been so severe, maybe it has brought a certain protection against a real futur bioweapon ? A natural vaccine without mercury
Yeah wishful thinking I know, but I like the idea of the Univers' gift to protect a kind and hard-working population against jealous foreign elite.
I managed and manufacturing plant in China for some years, and can attest to the non-productive month during the new year celebrations. We shut the plant down for two weeks, and it was common for employees to tag a weeks’ vacation on to the two weeks shut down period. Of course, I split it up, half could take their vacation time the week before the holidays and half the week after, so I could keep everything running. Yet, you can say that a soft, or not very productive month in china as normal.
So, if in March, everything starts coming back up, we may be able to get back to something resembling normal. If not, we are looking at a very large worldwide impact. That’s not to say we don’t already have an impact of everything with the container shipping being disrupted, but he first week of March should be telling.
I received an e-mail this morning from a business group in China, that apparently, I’m still on the mailing list of, which suggest being prepared for months, not weeks of challenges ahead.
If this situation is going to turn ugly, well uglier, then we in the west are being given plenty of time to prepare, the Chinese didn’t get that. My heart goes out to them.
So, if in March, everything starts coming back up, we may be able to get back to something resembling normal. If not, we are looking at a very large worldwide impact. That’s not to say we don’t already have an impact of everything with the container shipping being disrupted, but he first week of March should be telling.
I received an e-mail this morning from a business group in China, that apparently, I’m still on the mailing list of, which suggest being prepared for months, not weeks of challenges ahead.
If this situation is going to turn ugly, well uglier, then we in the west are being given plenty of time to prepare, the Chinese didn’t get that. My heart goes out to them.