Creating a New World

mkrnhr said:
Oxajil said:
Another possibility is, that if psychopaths team up and start a community themselves, they might end up killing/fighting each other..
They will also end up killing/fighting you...

Well I meant that if the group would ban the psycho's and it was just a possibility that I was saying. I certainly hope not that they would try to kill or fight me, otherwise I'll be kicking some sensitive spots :P and kind of hope for that they are Sam Vaknin types of psychos (if he really isn't physically agressive),, : P
But I get your point though, I think, danger can be just around the corner. Have to keep our eyes open.
 
Citation DE Smallwood:

Then again, a psychopath does have mind directed towards one purpose only - destruction of order.

And let not forget reproduce.

Post par:
Cit er Ce message
One lesson from the past, and from the fall, is not to underestimate the psychopaths and the entropy masters. We are not necessarily smarter then our Staling "ancestors" (we, Lucifer..).

Yes we are smarter, would you fall for the same reason, are we not connecting the dot and seeing the mosaic appear true the web. But true, the master of entropy may have other glittering object is his pot and for that we must always be aware.

Cit er Ce message
Citation DE: Oxtail
Another possibility is, that if psychopaths team up and start a community themselves, they might end up killing/fighting each other..

Yes that a possibility, division and deceive is there main tool and they will end up killing each other for power but they are greedy and if they discover another society, what do you thing they will do.
 
shijing said:
Deedlet said:
Let’s say, after “observing” we find out someone or few people are essential psychopaths. We can’t really ‘ban’ him/her/them from this community can we? They will go and make their own community of psychopaths somewhere else and come back and wage war on us, having been found out. And we can’t really kill them, because that’s extreme STS, osit.

I agree this is a tough problem -- for now, I tend to think that exile may be the best alternative for the following reasons. First, I agree with you and GotoGo (earlier in this thread) that taking a life should be a last resort at best, if not absolutely prohibited. If sent into exile, its true that we wouldn't know what alleged psychopaths were up to, but there is no reason to believe they would automatically return to attack us. They might -- and if so, we would presumably defend ourselves on the principle that we would 'not be fighting against them, but for our own destiny'. Such a confrontation may be the one acceptable place to kill, if it was in self-defense and not punitive. The prospects of fending off a physical attack from the outside seem a bit better than trying to contain the poison on the inside. This is a difficult problem, though, and the above is merely where I stand for now.

Personally, I really don't like the idea of exile, because of the reasons already stated. Them banning togehter and coming to get us- they'l want revenge for being kicked out. But another thing to think about is, if this group is allowed to ban together and make their own society based on entropy. They are bound to atterct 4D STS attention just as if the 200 people decide to make an STO society, and attrackt the 4D STO attention. Having said that, 4D STS will always be "helping" the psychopaths, and if both societys share the same planet, well they are bound to inter-minggle sooner or later. And lets not forget that STS might not use "violence" to get to us, but "temptation" as it was done before.
Just speculation ofcourse!
Also, another thought that just came to me is... would the STO "frequency fense" work against psychopaths also? If it does.. maybe we dont have to use violence :P
 
fwiw (sorry for the long post)

Maybe, an important thing to think about now is how this group can spot these psychopaths - if there are any - the best? I agree, Deedlet, difficult to think about!
What if there is a psychopath in the group, who is basically imitating the group's/other people's behavior so that s/he won't stand out much, and this psycho is abusing one of the members and maybe threats that member that if someone finds out s/he will be very angry and that s/he will go after him or his loved ones (if there are any) = one possibility i think. Could this group think of some kind of system that when a member is abused, that member will be able to tell someone (preferably an ''elder'' one, let's say) and there would be no one finding out?
Maybe someone could be a trust person? But then the psycho would be suspicious when s/he sees the abused member near the trust person. So what kind of system would be best... I guess, the best thing to do for the victim would be to find a sneaky moment to go and tell it to someone who knows what to do.

But, how does the group confront this psycho the best and how exactly can the group ban such a person..? Maybe tell him/her some kind of lies which he might believe and leave us? Just some thoughts and questions I ask myself..

There is this, which might help with recognizing and/or dealing with a psychopath:

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath_2.htm

How To Deal With Psychopaths

If you leave the psychopath, you can expect that he will either be the type who doesn't make any "noise" but ruins your reputation by spreading lies, or you can expect a lot of open manipulation (a final attempt to gain power and control).

For example, I left a psychopath, and to this day, if given the opportunity, he will tell friends to warn me that I am nothing but a "bug" on his windshield and that he has the ability to destroy me like an insect. Meanwhile, he has also spread false stories about me to anyone who'll listen.

Why does he do this?

After dealing with this annoying behaviour for nearly two years, I've come to a conclusion: Even though they cannot really love another person, and lack real deep-seated emotions, psychopaths relate to others through power and control. If someone should actually attempt to "demean" (in his eyes, this is very real) his power and control, he will react to some extent. The psychopath also made himself appear in control by stating that he "kicked" me out, even though he lived in his mother's house. Later on, he also told my friend that I was nothing but an "experiment" to him, after I had lost money, time, and suffered immensely because of his lying and manipulation. By suffering, I also count extreme depression which lasted nearly two years, as he did not stop attacking me in the two years after (even to this day) that I left him.

I believe that some individuals are strong enough to stand up to the psychopath; unfortunately, not all people are, and most psychopaths succeed in permanently damaging their victims. This is why we clearly need more support groups for people who have been in relationships with psychopaths.

In sum, the experience of dealing with a psychopath can be very troubling for most people, not to mention, when he is through with you, you can be sure that you will be vilified falsely, no doubt about it. I recently asked Field about what one can do when faced with the lies of a psychopath (Field refers to them as sociopaths) and the apparent absence of justice when it comes to their behaviour - - Field's response was:

"The main lesson I have learnt is that when dealing with a sociopath, the normal rules of etiquette do not apply. You are dealing with someone who has no empathy, no conscience, no remorse, and no guilt...It is a completely different mindset. Words like 'predator' and 'evil' are often used."

If you try to deal with psychopaths in an ethical manner, you will be in for a shock. Dr. William Higgins claims that you "can't negotiate or bargain with psychopaths."

Psychopaths will not only deny the past and trivialize it, but will avoid answering your questions directly, and even if they seem to answer them -- you can be sure that it's not the answer you were looking for. It has been said that even when they do give you a straight answer, the real issue will never be addressed by them, although they may even claim to be honourable when it suits them. But don't be fooled, for this is where the psychopath wants his victim -- he wants to shame you while at the same time fitting you into his plans; this is because "psychopaths show a stunning lack of concern for the devastating effects their actions have on others. Often they are completely forthright about the matter, calmly stating that they no have no sense of guilt, are not sorry for the pain and destruction they have caused, and that there is no reason for them to be concerned." [Hare, 41].

On the other hand, "psychopaths sometimes verbalize remorse but then contradict themselves in words or actions." [Hare, 41]. Psychopaths may apologize or show remorse only to get away with something, but in the end you will be stabbed in the back and realize how very shallow their words were.


The psychopath appears not to be able to remember what they had said or committed to for very long. They seem to always be living in the present. That is why they are usually guilty of being big "promise- makers" who cannot live up to their word. Once again, it will be the victim who must deal with the aftermath of all the psychopath's twists and turns, and when he gets you angry enough, you will be discredited as "defective" by him, and the psychopath will often make himself out to be the real victim. As John Wayne Gacy once said, "I was the victim, I was cheated out of my childhood."

What often happens in the aftermath, as Field has stated, is that the victim may repress his or her anger for a quite a while, but then, often many months later, a sudden realization of the truth may come over the individual, and the victim will finally realize that all along he/she has been bullied by the psychopath. This is when the victim suddenly becomes very angry and is motivated to have some sort of justice. But when trying to obtain justice with a psychopath, be aware that you will be the one to pay if you don't take a firm stand; the experience will have you more confused and bewildered, and you may even feel tempted to fight fire with fire.

In some cases, our society allows psychopathy because we do not really fight back against cheating and lying behaviours (one good example: Bill Clinton). They are also good at tricking their own psychiatrists. For instance, two individuals I (Wendy Koenigsmann) knew bragged that they liked to play mind-games with psychiatrists.

"I was the case-study; they could never figure out what was wrong with me, so I would just play mind-games with them" commented one of them. He also learned, from reading about psychiatry and having therapy, that he could just "blame someone else" to get away with things. "I just blame someone else" he said, nonchalantly.

When asked, in particular, why he hated his mother so much, (he claimed she physically/mentally/emotionally abused him), he replied, "Because my mother projects all of the assholes she's ever been dumped by on me."

That is why Hare believes that therapy makes psychopaths worse; most of them learn about human emotions through psychiatry, and they are "eager to attribute their faults and problems to childhood abuse." [Hare, 50]. Also, "antisocials (psychopaths) themselves can be uncooperative or unpleasant, complicating efforts to study and treat them." [Black, 12].

As for recovery from the psychopath, despite the pain that may be left (some people never recover, according to Field), you will learn how very uncomplicated yet cowardly the psychopath's means of keeping cool is. It's just the way the psychopath must function to maintain their rather fragile (but set in stone for life) self-image.

While few psychopaths commit violent crimes, the callousness of the average psychopath usually ranges through subtle, but still devastating misdeeds:

"Parasitically bleeding other people of their possessions, savings, and dignity; aggressively doing and taking what they want; shamefully neglecting the physical and emotional welfare of their families; engaging in an unending series of casual, impersonal, and trivial sexual relationships; and so forth."
[Hare, 45].

This is a main feature of their lack of empathy.Also, be forewarned that the psychopath will expend much effort (at the victim's cost), in setting up plans, expectations, etc., but they give very little, or nothing, in return. When he knows he's done something to you which you may not comply with, he'll have an escape route ready. Most normal people do the same thing, in a general sense, but the psychopath does it out of pure selfishness, greed, and callousness. He won't care whether it hurts your feelings or not, whatever treachery he enacts will not be disguised once the show is over with him.

I (Wendy Koenigsmann) would like to recount the experience of a friend of mine from Japan. She had been communicating with a man who lived in San Diego for over a year, and during the time of their correspondences and phone calls, he seemed so "sweet, caring, and kind." She mentioned how beautifully written his emails were, and so on.

It came to pass that this man asked my friend to marry him, and, to top it off, he promised her that he had a job ready for her in the city where he lived, he even sent her a letter from the company with all the information.

Well, my friend believed him and came to the United States to marry him.

On their first meeting, she mentioned how it was already the beginning of the end, and how she should have seen it coming. She told him, after they met at the airport, that she needed to make a phone call, and instead of letting her use his cell-phone, he told her to use the pay-phone. My friend, albeit naive, mentioned that this contradicted his persona on the phone and through emails. She said she was a bit shocked, but nevertheless she married him.

As the weeks went by, things got worse. She found out that there was no job, and that the letter he had sent her was actually just the letterhead from the company copied onto another paper. In other words, her new husband had committed forgery in order to trick her.

Next, she began to receive phone calls from women in the Philippines and Canada who told her that her new husband had been inviting them (via online) to come and live with him. My friend was so distraught that she told these women over and over that he was lying to all of them while playing the biggest trick of all on her. The women didn't believe it (why do women tend to disbelieve another woman when they are trying to warn them?), but eventually, my friend told them "If you want to see the proof that I am married to him, then come here and I will prove it."

Eventually, she learned from friends and family that Mr. Wonderful was a pathological liar who had a long history of using women and having his mother cover his tracks for him, and, sad to say, this wasn't the only one she ran into. I can say the same, that is why I've written this website, (Wendy Koenigsmann) because I can tell you that these people are out there, and I don't want anything to happen to anyone else or go through what my friend or myself have experienced. It is my goal that through my website, more people, not only women, but men, will become informed and not become victims themselves, because it is truly a painful experience to deal with.

So, what is the lowdown on dealing with psychopaths?

Either avoid them, or, once you know or suspect what they are, avoid them.


Any further contact with a psychopath will be truly damaging. Once you have been involved with a few of them, like many people I know, you also learn to watch for the "red flags." This doesn't mean you should be paranoid about people, just careful.

The fact is, regardless of all studies and new therapies, psychopaths are "hard-wired" for life-long bad behaviour. Leland M. Heller, M.D., writes that people who have this disorder have symptoms which include lying, cheating, cruelty, criminal behaviour, irresponsibility, lack of remorse, poor relationships, exploitation, manipulation, destructiveness, irritability, aggressiveness, and job failures. Many do not exhibit criminal behaviour, but act antisocially in socially acceptable professions.

Alcohol makes the disorder worse, and psychopaths are very prone to substance abuse. The causes are often "poor parental discipline, association with "bad" kids, and poor bonding with parents..." [Heller, 75]. But the causes can also be mostly biological.

Another characteristic is their unusual word usage, because they can't distinguish between neutral and emotional words. One psychopathic individual told me that he was "deftly afraid of needles" once, but the word deftly implies "skill." Instead of saying "deathly afraid," he said "deftly," and never noticed it was wrong. (See Hare's book for more interesting examples of this).

Strangely enough, many find the psychopath's verbal deftness quite charming, and psychopaths do tend to talk a lot, especially when they're pouring on the charm.

The question is, can you spot one before they get to you?

That is why it's important to study whether or not you may be the type who falls for them, who, in essence, becomes prey to believing in them. Some people may find concern over psychopathy irrelevant, but it's not. Psychopathy causes tremendous damage in our society, and affects all levels of our lives. It causes illnesses and disorders such as PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). Money is also lost by innocent victims to psychopaths, and these social predators also do much economic damage to our society.

Everyone, especially women, should learn to identify psychopathy and watch for red flags. This doesn't mean diagnosing every man you date, but preferably just being aware of the disorder can help out a lot! After my own experiences, I truly believe in the saying "better safe than sorry."

I will emphasize once more that I do believe most women transfer what they want to believe onto the psychopath, to the extent that he is painted in an unrealistic light, so psychopaths can also "play with your mind" in this regard. Most victims of the psychopath only see what they want to see, initially.
That is why Field says, "Naivete is the great enemy."Many also "cling to the belief that their loved one (the psychopath) simply has a few problems just like anyone else, not the symptoms of a personality disorder." [Black, 59].

In the book When Your Lover Is a Liar the issue of psychopathy and how psychopaths manipulate women is also pointed out. The author believes that a psychopath's greatest thrill is just being able to "pull the wool" over a woman's eyes. For people who are emotionally normal, we cannot understand what kind of thrill this is or why some of them would go to such lengths in order to trick someone. But as Dr. Heller states, "psychopaths feel no remorse, and actually enjoy their antisocial behavior." (Heller, 76).

Also, what I believe makes them most dangerous, is that they can be quite charming and persuasive, and "they have remarkably good insight into the needs and weaknesses of other people" as recounted in the text, Psychology In Action: "Even when they are indifferent to the rights of their associates, they are often able to inspire feelings of trust and confidence." This is best exemplified by a psychopath who professes that "everything is fine" while lying point-blank to your face with seeming honesty and candor, and then, as soon as you turn away for a second, he will stab you in the back.

In the end, you will know them "by their fruits" so to speak. They will be sure to let you know who's boss. As one female victim recounted in Hare's book Without Conscience... she couldn't understand how someone (the psychopath she had known) could have wormed his way into her life and then just disappeared so easily. This is how they operate. They just don't give a damn about anyone. Except themselves.

Another very strong characteristic to look for (or listen for) is what Dr. Hare refers to as "duping delight." It is as if the psychopath has no need to lie or purpose in lying, the pleasure is attained through merely pulling one over on somebody.

As for addictions and so forth, "among the clearest of these links is the one between ASP (psychopathy) and the abuse of alcohol and other drugs," [Black, 91], although most psychopaths would never admit they have a drinking problem, even when it's obvious. As one psychopath put it, "I know how to drink. Drinking is a responsibility, I've been doing it since I was 12."

So, once again: Can psychopaths change? Can you change them?

No, they choose to behave as they do, even though, to some extent they do have a personality disorder. Dr. Black, however, believes that even those patients who "show the greatest change seem unable to comprehend the degree to which their actions affected those around them. They may continue to live in emotional isolation. Self-interest is a natural component of the human makeup, but it is especially strong in antisocials and leaves many of them unable to develop full compassion, conscience, and other attributes that make for successful social relations." [Black, 144].

Maybe the group can do little tests like; ''who wants to lead this part of the group'' and see if there is anyone reacting a bit differently than expected or something...
Since psychopaths are quite the talk types, maybe those who have some knowledge about psychopaths could listen carefully when someone talks and tries to see if there are any ''glitches'' in the way the person talks. There are more points that can help spotting a psychopath.

I guess, it's not as easy as it sounds. Maybe the group should decide that if anyone has some important information about anything (or anyone!) that person should tell it to a particular person. If we are talking about this group here, this forum, I guess these ''contact people or trust people'' could maybe be one of the supermoderators or Laura/Ark.

So how to confront or ''ban'' such a person?

The author says that we should avoid psychopaths, well how are you gonna avoid them in such a society? Maybe everyone should ignore the person? If the person (the psychopath) sees that no one is paying attention to his lies or whatever, he might either go really agressive or maybe... leave and try to find another place where there are people who might fall for his lies and manipulation? Ah I don't know. Really difficult!
 
Having only now read the whole thread, I would like to return in this post on the initial situation where 200 persons find themselves in a survival situation. For many years I have been working as a humanitarian aidworker and in this line of work I have been in some tight situations. I have not been in this specific situation but with these experiences in mind I would like to make some comments on what could be the possible situations that such a group of 200 could face. As this envisioning for me is also returning to some traumatic events in my life I apologize if this gets too emotional or of track. If this is the case, please point that out to me.

As trizivent pointed out in one of his/her posts, a chronological approach is a efficient way to approach the situation. What is important in the first hour?

Priority number one is security. Without it the 200 will be dead before the first hour is over. So guaranteeing security needs to be done first. As such there are three different situations possible. There is no threat, there is possibility of treat and there is a clear and dire treat. Of these scenarios only the last one is certain. The others cannot be certain and must be dealt with as such.

In case of dire treat several, it is very unlikely that fleeing will be possible. Unless it is certain that staying put is certain death, fleeing increases the danger. Looking at the other two basic instincts, fighting and freezing, these will depend on how these 200 where structured before the violence started. If they were already a group, it is likely that there is some leadership in place and that this leadership can take some decision: like we will not fight back but stay put and wait for a lull to assess the situation so that we might flee. If the group was not a group before the violence started it is very likely that some people will start fighting and put everybody in danger. If possible the others that don't want to fight should try to distance themselves as much as possible (in meters) from the fighters. This might mean again fleeing, but that might be a better option then having the change to be killed with the fighters. The good side of this situation is that it separates already the people inclined to violence from those not inclined. It is possible that there already some psychopaths will naturally separated from the group. They might want to fight, not taken into consideration the life's of the others from the group. Also other pathological types might be inclined to fighting. If it is not possible to distance the group from the fighters, this situation will create a violent leadership and this will have to be dealt with later on.

When the group has come to a decision not to fight, some basic rule can be agreed upon that will enhance the coherence of the group and the faith in the leadership, lower the level of fear and restore a feeling of hope. Leadership should express that nobody will be left behind. Some people might oppose this rule, These are the people to watch in the coming hours and days. They might start soon to plot against the leadership and try to overthrow it for their own purposes. Genuine people will support such a decision and this decision will catalyse spontaneous volunteering for all kind of tasks. This will be done in a very natural way. The three different types of being of G will be more aware of their nature and behave accordingly. The physical type will take up physical tasks, the emotional emotional task, the intellectual intellectual task. So protecting, caring and planning will be done.

Shelter from the violence should be organised. As the group has decided not the fight, camouflage becomes now the most important thing to do. The whole group should be become as invisible as possible: in sight, sound, smell. This goes in line with what G said about the three inputs a men needs for its survival: food, air and impressions. Impressions is the most critical (we cannot survive without impression for one second). Therefor the group should hide its presence from the impression of the source of violence, without loosing its impression from the source of violence. This means that a few people will have to look at the violence, without being seen while the group is in total coverage. A line of communication between the ones watching and the group should be maintained. At the same time the leadership should try to prevent the group from having to many traumatic impressions. Wounded should be separated (only) visible and audible from the group.

Air is second priority, within minutes. Water becomes important within a few hours. Food only after days.

Sheltering is pretty safe. As long as no one moves and/or starts to panic. In case this happens that person should be silenced with gentle force in order not inform the source of violence of the position of the group.

As soon as the direct treat stops (maybe only temporary) a assessment can be done for the different aspects of the situation. What is the internal and external situation? External has to do with the choice to remain, to flee and to find out if there are other similar groups in the same or similar situation. Is there a way out? In order to find this out, scouts should be send out. As the communication will be broken between them and the group, clear agreements should be made between the group and the scouts (if I am not back in 12 hours then don't wait for me). It is also important to thank the person and say goodbye. The group needs to realize that they might see them not back again.

In the meantime the group can do an internal assessment of the emotional state of each individual, find out which professional qualities each has and what belongings each of them brought. The leadership should with that assessment focus on the next priority: what have we not that is important for our survival. The things the group has should be dealt with by delegated responsibility. Groups around certain task can be formed. If a critical item is lacking the risk should be discussed to expose one or more people of the group to obtain it. If there is no doctor and there are wounded, it might be necessary to send people out to try to find one. If there is no water, this will soon become a problem. Only absolute critical items should require of the group the danger of possible exposure.


As it is now 1 am in the morning for me, I will continue this tomorrow.
 
A small group like a 200-person community in a survival activity are supposed to have a collective activity to survive. Before building individual houses the psychopath will not focus on a particular prey. He/she will do it only when the opportunity to isolate its prey from the group. However, its "energetic" activity could be sensed in the group, especially if they are trained to this issue. Maybe the psychologist/shaman/elder would sense it much easier, but an open group where people mirror sincerely others, it should be detectable IMHO. Depends on the education level on this issue of course.
Now the ban or exile solution is a difficult decision. Imagine two members of the group who have a OP or psychopathic child? Would the group ban a five yrs old child in the wilderness? Will the parents accept this sacrifice to the group? Seems to me that the Knowledge of the group on how to deal with such individuals, by protecting the group and all the members from energy-stealing/manipulation/harassment and all that we know about psychopaths will be useful. If I had to be asked in this moment on what to do with them... I would say make them myrmidon warriors to defend the city, à la Platon. I am harsh, but if they are warriors (2D) prevented artificially to reproduce and to access to the community and to whom the physical needs are provided, maybe they could be useful as long as the psychopathy reality is known. :-[ very harsh...
 
Oxajil said:
Maybe the group can do little tests like; ''who wants to lead this part of the group'' and see if there is anyone reacting a bit differently than expected or something...
Since psychopaths are quite the talk types, maybe those who have some knowledge about psychopaths could listen carefully when someone talks and tries to see if there are any ''glitches'' in the way the person talks. There are more points that can help spotting a psychopath.


Speaking of 'tests', I think some kinds of informal tests could possibly be developed, and probably already have.

If anyone hasn't read from the below links, I think it would be worthwhile. These articles are all linked from the Special Research Project of the Quantum Future School site that Oxajil provided.

Speech patterns offer window into psychiatric disorders
http://record.wustl.edu/archive/1997/10-09-97/5200.html

Ten minute test could spot killers
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2943160.stm

Eight Ways to Spot Emotional Manipulation:
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/emotional_manipulation.htm

Psychopaths find faces a mystery
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/926662.stm


[quote author=http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath_2.htm]
In short, if you want to learn about psychopathy, don't read Black. The only kind he had to study were the failures, the ones who ended up in jail or psychiatric hospitals.[/quote]

Another way I interpret this is to not just study the diagnosed cases (the confirmed psychopaths), but to keep up with all the related information that's being published.
 
My my how this thread has grown. I'm just gonna toss in my two cents before reading the entire thing, had a lot of ideas along these lines for awhile and mayhap they can apply here.

Government.
Assuming identification and removal of psychopaths from power centers, governments purpose is really to protect and ensure equality. To this end its responsibilities would mostly include road building, facilitation of networking, and giving a forum for redress and problem solving. On a local scale this would mostly act like a library or a really big yellow pages. Letting people know what was available and where to go to get it. Food/housing/medical care/employment, etc. People could let the 'government' know what they can do, or what they have to offer, and then others can search it for what they're requesting.

On a larger scale it would be more involved in infrastructure then anything else, and could also pair up individuals seeking training in a particular field with masters so they could learn from them. So for instance, say you'd acquired your basic education and wanted to learn how to build cars. You'd query the 'government' and they'd have a list of master's in the field who were willing to take on trainees and they'd hook you up.

Education/Commerce
Difficult topic, assuming an STO dynamic there's a lot of basic information - Diet/Exercise/How to properly maintain your body. Psychological knowledge is also clutch as is 'The Universe 101' - STO vs STS dynamics, the densities, how soul's grow, etc. Basic math, reading/writing. Maybe a language - say whatever is in your families background. Ideally most of this would be taught in the home from a young age, hopefully the individual would acquire all basic knowledge by their early teens. Anything that a parent might not be well versed in they could swap their kids out with some others from the neigborhood, teach them specifics they know and then have their kids learn a different set of specifics from another parent.

For instance, my mom may know how to cook really awesome healthy food, and your dad may know how to repair/build/maintain a heating/cooling system or how to farm food/hunt/fish whatever. So we learn how to cook/prep food from my mom on one day and then your dad teaches us home maintainence/farming/hunting on another. Mutual exchange, useful skills. Maybe another single individual or couple that doesn't have kids know how to teach reading/writing/math and so they teach all the neighborhood kids their schtick (special skill) and get free food in exchange.

The big ideal being that mutual exchange is what's important, not necessarily what is exchanged. It's like a barter system where no value is assigned, only mutual happiness comfort, and if that's not achieved the local forum or 'government' can be addressed and the elder's would decide if there's some imbalance.

How do you pick the elders? Well that's easy. They're the old people. ;-) They've been around the longest, had the most experience, been through it all and so they share their collective insights and experiences with everyone else. This allows them to 'retire' while still contributing to the group dynamic.

On a larger scale there could be a lottery and they get assigned for a short term on the council until the next lottery. You could divide the council up into small groups that focus on particular issues, and they could use the lottery to select individuals in the field who are more youthful/up to speed on the current situation to advise them.

Everyone gets fed, everyone gets education, everyone contributes depending on his or her particular skills and knowledge.

Now how we would get there from here is an much more interesting question, but I believe Laura asked what it would look like and that's the idea I've had about 'how the world should work' for quite some time, fwiw.
 
The rate of information exchange in this thread is just amazing.

The initial stage of survival seems mainly focused on providing resources for those most in need and then to provide for the group. Next comes how the group will approach survival: as a family, as a body with cells, as a community of different types. Along with the approach of types is the consideration of pathologicals and psychopaths (should these be separate issues?).

If we go back to where we left off with the nuts and bolts of building the new world, I think we figured out the order in which more permanent homes were built. We'll also want to decide if the clearing is the best spot or if we need to move (are we near water? If not we should probably move). So lets say we have our permanent spot. I think as the housing order is being planned, we should also look at locations and functions. If we approach it like a living organism, there's probably ideal places for different functions of the group. For example, the hunters, security, trackers and scouts (potentially future traders) could be on the outer perimeters as their function is largely based in the external world for the internal; then the skinners, clothing makers, tool makers, soap makers (and any other production functions) should be in the middle as their function processes external goods for the internal; and then the center should probably be composed of those functions central to the community as their function utilizes the internal for the internal - the healers, the elderly, a school/day care, community meeting place, etc.

I think our community should be set up to waste nothing / utilize everything. Every part of a killed animal can serve a purpose: meat for food, hide for clothing, fat for soap, bones for tools, and so on. And this should be a principle that would work for functions and people as well. We all provide for each other and are dependent on each other like a living organism.

Given our natural group dynamic, we may likely have specific strengths of knowledge in certain areas while we are weak in other areas. The strengths could be taught to others to make it a specialty. If fostered, and if and when our scouts come in contact with other groups, we can exchange specialties to fill in gaps.

Edit: this is sooo fun!
 
Buddy said:
Laura said:
Exactly. That's why I say it is so interesting that most people - even the usually very advanced and creative members of this forum - are still projecting their own wants/needs onto such a situation and not really using their minds as they were designed to be used: to imagine and figure out situations in advance, in a mentally reflective way that has some basis in a reality construct that is accurately mapped.

Being able to do this might be a crucial skill at some point.

I am grateful for the opportunity to learn this lesson before it's actually needed. I am only a little way into the 1st video but I'm already sick from the underlying vision of the game theory. I see why the crap is going to collapse.

Those nobel-prize winning equations only quarantee a balance as long as EVERYONE is selfish. There's no room for true co-operation in the psychopath's 'games' - not if you want a 'successful' outcome. That's a useful achille's heel, no?
Hi Buddy,

I'm no expert, but I don't think that the optimal strategies for all games are necessarily competitive. In mathematics, a game is any situation in which an agent (an entity possessing preferences) can maximize its utility (i.e. the degree to which preferences are obtained) by anticipating the actions of other agents- it does not have any connotations of unimportance that are usually associated with the word "game" in everyday language. "Game theoretic rationality" does not imply selfishness- sometimes cooperation is the optimal strategy. I think the point of "The Trap" was that Nash projected his own paranoia onto other people and incorrectly decided that the kind of game theory that applies to poker applies to all situations, and that this assumption crept into economics, politics, and psychology as a founding assumption. IOW, its not game theory that is bad, but Nash's interpretation of game theory, osit.

If you think about it, SOTT is in a kind of a game against psychopaths. We have to maximize our limited resources of time, attention, creativity, money etc. against their superior material resources, but also against their liabilities such as wishful thinking, lack of creativity, unstable power structure, etc. in an attempt to spread information to the maximum number of nonpsychopaths. Maybe its important to remember that its a mathematical certainty that cooperation is the only winning strategy? The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a really good entry on game theory btw :cool2:!

On the original question of the thread, the problem seems pretty intractable since there are way too many variables. The future is not predictable with complete accuracy, so its good to remember that we're dealing with probabilities, and therefore do what is most probable to not result in the same problems current society faces, and to anticipate possible problems before they come up. IOW,

Albert Einstein said:
The world we have made, as a result of the level of thinking we have done thus far, creates problems we cannot solve at the same level of thinking at which we created them.

So here are some of my observations:

1) I think that rationality should be a virtue instilled early in addition to the ones already listed. Metacognition, or awareness of one's own thoughts and feelings is obviously a good thing to instill as well. Education should be built around real-world, pragmatic, imperfect-information problems, and we should encourage questioning of our own thoughts and feelings as well as awareness of our cognitive biases. This is the only way for democracy to really work.

2) How do we deal with the "problem" of OP/ moral-exoskeleton people? Is Lobacezewski's idea to replace the "complete certainty" of the religious codes with a "scientific legal system" based on the "instinctive substrtum" the answer? That's the only answer I can think of (that is, replacing a religious authority with scientific moral authority).

3) We need to be aware of the bias of considering only the short-term possibilities instead of the long-term possibilities.

4) How do we deal with the "telephone problem" in which information and original intent are distorted with each successive generation? In addition to creating an "inner circle", I think we also need a "conscious source" like the C's. There is simply no way we can foresee all possible future problems in nonlinear universe, and as the C's say "you can't stand up to a level of density higher than your own by yourself". Maybe we can think of this as the "higher centers" of humanity (continuing with the humanity as single body metaphor). It would be like the oracle of the ancient Greeks, except this Oracle would have the requisite knowledge and being to form a genuine connection.

5) Some people are suggesting exiling psychopaths, but could psychopaths have a valid role in society? For example, in Snakes in Suits, Hare writes how psychopaths actually succeed in vocations that require fearlessness (he lists as an example bomb diffusion). An example that might apply in this society is gathering dangerous substances (venom, etc.) for medicinal purposes. But could a psychopath fit into society with predatory instincts? I'm not sure.
On the other hand, suppose two nonpsychopath parents that carry psychopath-genes produce a psychopath offspring. How would they feel if their kid is forcibly exiled? Should they be exiled too if they refuse? So, if we could fit psychopaths into society that would probably be easier, but again, I have no idea if its possible.
 
I agree with the post of Jeremy F Kreuz that safety and security of the group would be of paramount importance initially also maintaining a supply of water, and knowledge of how to decontaminate. The group may have to keep moving until they find an area of safety that could support the community. Following a river or stream would be a good idea OSIT.

The post by Oxajil was very informative about some of the manipulative behaviours of psychopaths. I think IMHO that secrecy should be avoided, all challenging behaviours that develop in the group must be openly discussed in the group. The individual causing the disruption should be confronted and questioned, the individual should have a fair hearing and be allowed to give justification for there actions, some other acts or manipulations make come to light that other group members may have experienced. This may give some indication of the type of person the group is dealing with. Openness and honesty I think has to be really important to build trust and integrity to the group. Anything that is causing disruption to the group should be openly identified and dealt by the group however small and inconsequential it may seem (mole hills develop into mountains).

Some members may decide to leave the group because it is not the right fit for them and form there own group. When members leave the group there should be discussion about why some have left the group. This could provide more insight into the group dynamics.

As for acts of violence I don't think that this would be a true indicator of psychopathic behaviour, It may just be a noble act to maintain the safety and security of the group or individual. This may also involve the taking of another's life. Which is such an abhorrent thought for me but it could be a reality.

I also think that we have been given a unique opportunity to plan and organize a group and community to develop it in new and imaginative ways. I find it puzzling
when reading some of the posts that old 3D model is used which is not working and is one of the reasons that members have been drawn to the forum OSIT

Just some thoughts Joan
 
Kesdjan, thanks for taking the time to compose that post.

Kesdjan said:
I think the point of "The Trap" was that Nash projected his own paranoia onto other people and incorrectly decided that the kind of game theory that applies to poker applies to all situations, and that this assumption crept into economics, politics, and psychology as a founding assumption. IOW, its not game theory that is bad, but Nash's interpretation of game theory, osit.

I agree. By the time I finished the video, I realized my observation was undeveloped and mis-communicated. I understand and agree with what you're saying. I also think I need to work on recognizing more of my own cognitive biases, including "short-term possibilities instead of the long-term possibilities."

Kesdjan said:
How do we deal with the "telephone problem" in which information and original intent are distorted with each successive generation? In addition to creating an "inner circle", I think we also need a "conscious source" like the C's. There is simply no way we can foresee all possible future problems in nonlinear universe, and as the C's say "you can't stand up to a level of density higher than your own by yourself". Maybe we can think of this as the "higher centers" of humanity (continuing with the humanity as single body metaphor). It would be like the oracle of the ancient Greeks, except this Oracle would have the requisite knowledge and being to form a genuine connection.

This inspires a sense of excitement. I see possibilities of ways of living as a community and having ways to protect ourselves from threats coming from many different possible sources.

Kesdjan said:
Some people are suggesting exiling psychopaths, but could psychopaths have a valid role in society? For example, in Snakes in Suits, Hare writes how psychopaths actually succeed in vocations that require fearlessness (he lists as an example bomb diffusion). An example that might apply in this society is gathering dangerous substances (venom, etc.) for medicinal purposes. But could a psychopath fit into society with predatory instincts? I'm not sure.
On the other hand, suppose two nonpsychopath parents that carry psychopath-genes produce a psychopath offspring. How would they feel if their kid is forcibly exiled? Should they be exiled too if they refuse? So, if we could fit psychopaths into society that would probably be easier, but again, I have no idea if its possible.

I tend to think there may be psychopaths who will need to be ostrascized (perhaps those with uncontrollable predatory instincts?) and those who could probably fit in, motivated by their own decision and continued effort to do so.

I was reminded of an article I read concerning a young boy whose mother or someone had to explain to him all the customary rules of cooperation with others, because he simply could not grasp that there was anything wrong with certain behaviors.

I can't find the article, but the part I remember best was in the boy's own words. He was describing how he was having to memorize or remember certain things about how to behave with other people because he was different from others. He described himself as not having any bad feelings about doing certain bad things; for example, something like bullying another child or maybe it was about stealing or taking something away from someone. I don't remember exactly, but I remember the boy was simply describing himself as different in a matter-of-fact way.

Was that a SOTT article? I can't find it now, but I used to have it bookmarked.

At any rate, I refrained from commenting on the exile possibility because I don't know if it's possible or not, to train psychopathic children, youth or adults. That seems like one of those things we'll have to learn as we go, guided by what is known at this point.
 
Just a side note before going to breath...
Defense does not necessarily mean killing people around! And protection of the group doesn't mean using the game theory stuff. In game theory, you sacrifice the weak to preserve the group! This is completely ponerization. And you choose a leader to lead and a pyramidal chain of command and everything. Exactly what we want to avoid IMHO. If we want an STO world we have to act for safety and not react to fear. With fear comes everything : individualism, survival a la "survivor", energy stealing, food stealing, lies, etc.
Care must be taken to what Being as a group is and as individuals. A solid group with intelligent people, healthy people, imaginative people, creative people, and nice people, who are trusting each other have nothing to fear but to fall. This group have to have faith, faith in being.
One must be ingenious also, learn from the past experiences, and adapt to the situation. Ok, what is there is no river? I saw people extracting fresh underground water in the saharian desert, they just use whatever they have, so this group can. Do you expect hordes of psychopathic slave merchants traveling along rivers? Try underground and well camouflaged canalisation's to a safer place. When you cook you use fire and it can attract them? Well, if you have sun you can maybe build solar heaters or closed cookers with absorbing material or canalise smoke to a place it could be invisible. I don't say these are the best solutions but there are always solutions if we use our brains, especially if we use them together.
 
Biomiast said:
Hi Ana,

You were doing great, you caught the resemblance. To increase the depth of discussion we can talk about 6 hallmarks of a cancer cell, I think they are really food for thought about pathology.

-Growing uncontrollably: Cancer cells do not respond to signals that usually regulate cell growth and division. These cells grow unchecked, producing more and more cancer cells. Meaning you don't have any conscience to bound you from doing dangerous things for organism.

-Evading death: Just as signals regulate cell growth and division, signals control cell death. Cancers can result from cells that do not die when they should. This is about apoptosis, programmed cell death. When a cell realizes it accumulated too much mutation it destroys itself, I think it resembles how psychopaths never admit they made a mistake and try to fix it.

-Angiogenesis: To grow beyond a certain size, tumors need a system to bring in nutrients and take out wastes. The cancer cells that make up a tumor attract blood vessels to grow into the tumor mass. The blood vessels then nourish the tumor just like any organ in the body. I think this resembles how psychopaths try to extend their influence and infect as many people as possible, this is the source of their power, their nourishment, and protecting humans from such infections are the answer to immunize the society, osit.

-Becoming immortal: Cells have a lifespan. The age of a cell and its ability to divide is related to structures – telomeres – found at the ends of chromosomes. In each cell division a cell loses a little of its telomeres, and when the telomeres are finished it starts to lose its functional genes and this cause eventual death. Cancer cells secrete an ezyme called telomerase which generates more and more telomeres and make the cancer cells immortal. Like psycopaths, their influence lives with the power of the individuals they have infected, and they in a sense become immortal.

-Invading tissues: Something you mentioned, many cells are anchorage-dependent, meaning they are tied to their environment and should stay ther in order to live but cancer cells aren't bound to anything, they can go wherever they want without any problem and so is psychopaths. They seek systems which they can ponerize and grab the power easily. And when they do, they spread.

-Promoting mutations: Every cell has tumor suppressor genes, they detect the formation of the cancer and protect the organism in normal conditions, but in cancer cells, some of them are probably damaged so they don't have the ability to correct or supress, so cancer cells are encouraged to mutate within themselves. Mutation always occurs, but when there is no control, the cell become more and more cancerous. I guess that also fits conscience, you can make whatever mistakes you want because there is nothing in you to stop it.

These are my thoughts, but I think forumites can be much more creative than me. Funny that a year ago this month, I was writing about the same topic I am writing today, but in the past, it was for purely selfish reasons, I hope this isn't the case now. If I acted emotionally to the subject(it is kind of emotional for me), please point out.

Now, the big question is how to prevent it. For cancer cell analogy, detect mutations quickly, stop uncontrollable growth, prevent angiogenesis to stop the nourishment of cancer cells and don't let them invade other places, keep them in place. So it seems, to prevent a psychopath: Recognize, prevent his/her infection of other people, don't let people feed him/her and keep him/her in a certain place. On a large scale, it sounds like a quarantine to me, if not sending him/her away from group.

I was going to write something about immune response, but it is a little complicated. I am going to explain it with some skipping. I think in a society, there should be groups for handling the pathology each has its specific function, as in immune system there are various cells. I am just going to mention what happens in a body, I don't have any suggestion on how it should be in specific, but I think it should be done in groups with different purposes.

In immune system there are macrophages who take in pathogens and destroy them, but sometimes they too become infected. For this reason they present a part of their pathogen to other cells on their surface. "Helper T cells" recognize this pathogen part(antigen) and with the knowledge of this antigen they proliferate and some become TH1, some become TH2 for different purposes.

TH1 cells release some chemicals called cytokine(means cell activator). This cytokines stimulate the macrophage to destroy the pathogens inside. If macrophages can't destroy the pathogen by themselves, Helper T cells send cytokines to "Killer T-cells". This time macrophage present its antigen on some place else, this replacement means: "I couldn't kill the pathogen by myself, so come and kill me for the sake of the organism". This replacement enables Killer T cells to recognize infected macrophages and as their name implies, they kill the infected macrophages. This process done with the TH1 cells are called cell-mediated immune response, because it is on a cellular level, not affecting the whole body.

TH2 cells go to the "B cells" and activate them by their cytokines, B cells produce an antibody for the antigen and they keep proliferating, and they produce more and more antibodies by proliferation. Then, they release those antibodies to whole body, the antibodies while circulating in the blood, find and mark antigens in the body, so that other cells can recognize and destroy antigens more easily. B cells who produced that specific antibody are stored in the blood and in the future, if the same antigen comes into body, they proliferate and give their immune response more quickly. And this is called humoral immune response.

I hope it didn't confuse you. It seems too much complicated for a society, but I think it may have some lessons for us, in the case of pathology's effect on us and how are we going to counteract it. Just my two cents, fwiw.



Wow!! :wow:

So you did think about that time ago..



Well, the info related to the immune system response is difficult to understand for me so I am not able to find the analogies.. :-[
But it seems clear that cancer and psychopaths share similar behaviors and we can put into practice this four steps you noted to deal with both.

Biomiast said:
1.detect mutations quickly
2.stop uncontrollable growth
3.prevent angiogenesis to stop the nourishment of cancer cells and don't let them invade other places
4.keep them in place



I Just wonder, as there are bodies that do not develop cancer and also some are able to heal , maybe there could be a society/world with no psychopaths...?


Thank you so much Biomiast. :)
 
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