Creating a New World

[Laura]

I've been unable to get online for a couple of days (our bandwidth is a real problem!) and ya'll sure have been thinking!

You seem to be getting a real good handle on the problems that we face in just dealing with 200 people and how to create a small society. When you think about this in terms of billions of people and the infrastructure in place, you see something of the HUGE problem of trying to exist in an STO state in an STS world.

There are a few principles that were mentioned in passing that deserve more thought:

"An STO being is one who gives ALL when ASKED."

and:

"You don't have to act "against" - you act IN FAVOR OF YOUR DESTINY."

Of course, sometimes, to an outsider, it would be hard to distinguish the motivation in this last item.

Then there is:

Always expect attack
Know the modes of same
Learn how to head it off.

That, of course, goes back to acting in favor of your destiny.

Then, there was the discussion of social pathogens - what to do? Do you isolate a deadly germ or what? If you see a cancer cell, and know what it will do to the body, what do you do?

Then, there was the suggestion to try to structure the STO society like a body, decide who is going to be the brain, the heart, the arms, the legs, etc.

The problem most people have is that they have no ability to imagine things different from what they know (or think they know). It's like archaeologists and historians who interpret the past in terms of the present. Reminds me of the "Motel of the Mysteries." (If you haven't read this little story, it's well worth finding and reading.)

I'll tell you something that came to me not too long ago: any technology that does not require human interface to make it work is entropic. That is, any machine that you can set to work by turning on a switch (and loading it up first), that does not require matching actions by a human being, or numbers of them, is entropic to humanity. It increases the mechanization of society and takes it on a downward spiral.

Ya'll have a look at this: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skara_Brae

and this: http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/skarabrae/

and consider the length of time this village was inhabited.

Apparently, there have been societies on this planet that have existed for hundreds - or even thousands - of years without defensive fortifications or signs of war.

 

[Breton]

... I'll tell you something that came to me not too long ago: any technology that does not require human interface to make it work is entropic. That is, any machine that you can set to work by turning on a switch (and loading it up first), that does not require matching actions by a human being, or numbers of them, is entropic to humanity. It increases the mechanization of society and takes it on a downward spiral. ...

And I have too wondered about the society I live in. Sometimes I have heard it described as a society with a "death wish". Is that because the world I live in, the society, is so much like a machine? It has been mechanized? An unthinking, unfeeling machine. A machine that tries to govern itself with inhuman programming and things like "game theory" even.

Somehow Gurdjieff's words as recorded by Ouspensky came to my mind:

"People are machines. Machines have to be blind and unconscious, they cannot be otherwise, and all their actions have to correspond to their nature. Everything happens. No one does anything. 'Progress' and 'civilization,' in the real meaning of these words, can appear only as the result of conscious efforts. They cannot appear as the result of unconscious mechanical actions. And what conscious effort can there be in machines? And if one machine is unconscious, then a hundred machines are unconscious, and so are a thousand machines, or a hundred thousand, or a million. And the unconscious activity of a million machines must necessarily result in destruction and extermination. It is precisely in unconscious involuntary manifestations that all evil lies. You do not yet understand and cannot imagine all the results of this evil. But the time will come when you will understand."

Hmmm... unconscious, involuntary, manifestation...
Something here to ponder.

 

[Nienna]

So as not to hijack this thread with a very long posting, I've created a new thread in 'What's on your mind', called Creating communication and community. It relates to the interpersonal dynamics, etc, that typically take place in community/team/small group building, it may be helpful to this thread, or not.

If possible, I'd appreciate feedback on this new thread from either go2 or Jeremy F Kreuz, in terms of its practicability in real life from their experiences. Thank you in advance.

Hello Trevrizent,
No offense but I would like to know what is your real motivations here.

I got a 'warning' sign because I think what easily can happen in a 200 people society is to start forming 'sects' through mechanical likes and dislikes. So a great challenge will be how to keep 'whole body' being 'united' OSIT.

I just don't know what was motivating in your deep psychology so I would like to hear your self-observations, if it is possible. I saw the thread you created and yes, it is long and understand your external consideration point but the BOLD sentence above made me wonder (sensed a kind of 'fishing'). I will read the thread though. ;)


Edit: clarification

I agree with you on this Gotogo. It may be an entirely unconsious act, but it does seem like Trevrizent is herding people to view his ideas separately. I think what really caught my eye was the fact that he asked for feedback from only two people on this forum. Why? Does he think that these two people are the only ones that think like he does and that only their feedback are worth anything to him?

One has to ask oneself if this is what he would do in a group situation? Would he be bringing certain individuals to meet with separately to talk about his point of view away from all of the others? And if so, why? Does he think that only these special people would be able to appreciate what he has to say, that the rest of us are not worthy of any input? Or is there another reason?

I know that this is all just speculation on my part, but it certainly raises a couple of red flags for me. And I certainly could be way off target, and hope that I am.

fwiw

 

[Nem]

Apparently, there have been societies on this planet that have existed for hundreds - or even thousands - of years without defensive fortifications or signs of war.

If we are thinking in terms of a "perfect" society, wars and the importance of having armed forces should be excluded IMO. It's understandable that war unables or obstructs development and puts in place lust for conquer, territory etc. War depends on the behaviour and decisions of the people, so STS people trying to build an STO society without conflicts will eventually fail, because of their inner nature, of their inner slavery. OSIT
As Gurdjieff said:
[quote author=ISOTM]
"There was a question about war. How to stop wars? Wars cannot be stopped. War is the result of the slavery in which men live. Strictly speaking men are not to blame for war. War is due to cosmic forces, to planetary influences. But in men there is no resistance whatever against these influences, and there cannot be any, because men are slaves. If they were men and were capable of 'doing,' they would be able to resist these influences and refrain from killing one another."
"But surely those who realize this can do something?" said the man who had asked the question about war. "If a sufficient number of men came to a definite conclusion that there should be no war, could they not influence others?"
"Those who dislike war have been trying to do so almost since the creation of the world," said G. "And yet there has never been such a war as the present. Wars are not decreasing, they are increasing and war cannot be stopped by ordinary means. All these theories about universal peace, about peace conferences, and so on, are again simply laziness and hypocrisy. Men do not want to think about themselves, do not want to work on themselves, but think of how to make other people do what they want. If a sufficient number of people who wanted to stop war really did gather together they would first of all begin by making war upon those who disagreed with them. And it is still more certain that they would make war on people who also want to stop wars but in another way. And so they would fight. Men are what they are and they cannot be different. War has many causes that are unknown to us. Some causes are in men themselves, others are outside them. One must begin with the causes that are in man himself. How can he be independent of the external influences of great cosmic forces when he is the slave of everything that surrounds him? He is controlled by everything around him. If he becomes free from things, he may then become free from planetary influences. [/quote]

So maybe 200 people, who are really "free", have a chance. But if they would be free, will they need to construct a society for themselves? What do you think?

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

If we are thinking in terms of a "perfect" society, wars and the importance of having armed forces should be excluded IMO.

I don't think lack of war has anything to do with "perfect", I think what Cindy Sheehan said is right, it is an ultimate failure - I don't think war is what happens just one step below "perfect" by any means.

It's understandable that war unables or obstructs development and puts in place lust for conquer, territory etc.

Or maybe it's the other way around - the lust to conquer combined with lies to the people who readily believe those lies is what creates the possibility of war.

War depends on the behaviour and decisions of the people, so STS people trying to build an STO society without conflicts will eventually fail, because of their inner nature, of their inner slavery. OSIT

But there is a reason for this inner slavery, it is not our default state from birth. By default we are STS and have a susceptibility to be programmed and enslaved and fooled. However, we also have the potential not to be, and a lot depends on the kind of environment we've been exposed to all our lives, what kind of influences surround us. Psychopaths have an iron grip on this planet and all the media and education and pretty much every aspect of it. This is why people become "enslaved" - because they grow up in a world ruled by pathocracy, so the negative/ignorant/mechanical potential of each person is what is encouraged and promoted and cultivated.

Changing something like this globally would mean we'd have to get through to the majority of the population about the nature of their world and who runs it, and this is very very difficult. But what if we were given the chance to build up our world from the ground up - starting small scale and working up? Then there is a chance to cultivate the positive potential in humans because those among them that have a clue will have more ability to reach people before the system is taken over by psychopaths and all people become unreachable again.

It makes no sense to suggest that the way things are is the only way things can be - this forum is already proof that that argument doesn't hold water. Everyone on this forum is an STS human, and yet, look at how different it is from how things typically work on this planet? Look at the dynamics here, look at the love and cooperation, look at the Knowledge of all its members that is exponentially increasing daily - together with the love in our hearts for one another and humanity itself. This is proof that humans have potential to become something other than what is "typical", and therefore it is not human nature alone that creates the world we're in - other factors are definitely involved. And those factors are the overwhelming influence of psychopaths on the development of every human since birth.

So it is indeed possible for STS people like you and me and others to structure their society differently. Some of us just need more help than others because we're all different in this respect. Some, like Laura, are trailblazers and were able to change and develop themselves with the entire system coming down on their heads. Some need a little bit of a "push" from others, and I don't mean violation of free will but simply being exposed to the material, people, ideas, and reality that is different from the soul-crushing reality they've only been able to see all their lives.

I hope that makes sense, and I hope you can find some faith in yourself and humanity, because if we have no faith, then there really is no hope.

[quote author=ISOTM]
"There was a question about war. How to stop wars? Wars cannot be stopped. War is the result of the slavery in which men live. Strictly speaking men are not to blame for war. War is due to cosmic forces, to planetary influences.
[/quote]
G doesn't say human nature is responsible - he says that it is the influences that have control over human nature and manipulate it to their will that is the real reason for war.

But in men there is no resistance whatever against these influences, and there cannot be any, because men are slaves. If they were men and were capable of 'doing,' they would be able to resist these influences and refrain from killing one another."

Consider that the capability to "do" can be "helped" by being exposed to positive influences and role models and "leaders". If there was no possibility to develop this resistance, G would never have developed it either and he would not have "written" ISOTM!

"But surely those who realize this can do something?" said the man who had asked the question about war. "If a sufficient number of men came to a definite conclusion that there should be no war, could they not influence others?"
"Those who dislike war have been trying to do so almost since the creation of the world," said G. "And yet there has never been such a war as the present. Wars are not decreasing, they are increasing and war cannot be stopped by ordinary means.

Again, the "negative influences" are overwhelming and for a "normal man" it is impossible to fight against them under the circumstances. But sometimes things happen, like cataclysms, that change the circumstances. And sometimes there are people who aren't just running around yelling "let's all just get along" but have developed an objective understanding of reality that is higher than a typical person who is simply against war, like again, this group. This understanding greatly assists in helping others understand their own machine and why they are so easily controlled and what can be done to change that.

All these theories about universal peace, about peace conferences, and so on, are again simply laziness and hypocrisy. Men do not want to think about themselves, do not want to work on themselves, but think of how to make other people do what they want.

Exactly! Running around with peace signs will never achieve anything - only Knowledge and Work can do so. And if someone has a clue about what this means, they can teach others and help others in a REAL way, not by telling them to "get along" but by addressing the mechanical aspects of them that make it impossible to have any lasting "peace". It is not conscience that is lacking per se, it is the inability of the people to See just how influenced/controlled/programmed they are, and also how enslaved they are by their own predator, etc. Having "good intentions" is not enough, and that's how war can be created with both sides convinced that their own intentions are "good". People need Knowledge, and this is what the pathocracy is working so hard to prevent.

Also consider this - if there was no potential for humans to exist differently, why would the pathocracy work so hard to deceive and hide knowledge? Because they know that there is real potential for humanity, if they had the understanding, to change their world. I don't hide knowledge from my vacuum cleaner because it has no potential to be anything else - but psychopaths do everything in their power to keep their control because they know that if they don't, they will lose it.

One must begin with the causes that are in man himself. How can he be independent of the external influences of great cosmic forces when he is the slave of everything that surrounds him? He is controlled by everything around him. If he becomes free from things, he may then become free from planetary influences.

The scenario in this thread "eases" cosmic influences and gives us a chance to structure things differently before those influences return in full force, on a global dominion kind of scale. The playing field is temporarily leveled - and this DOES offer an opportunity for change, and I see nothing that G said that contradicts this.

 

[Ollie]

Hi GotoGo (and Nienna Eluch)

No offence taken.

I agree with your ‘warning‘ sign, and that was part of the motivation for starting the thread, to highlight the possible/probable interpersonal and group dynamics that may arise in forming a group. Certainly from experience, ‘cliques’ form in the early stages and often that is as far as the team/group/community building gets to. I have worked in many of these environments, I’m currently in one now. I agree with your use of the word ‘sects’; a word that may be interchangeable with ‘cliques’ in the text. My experience shows that only a very few groups successfully go through all of these stages. I’ve only done it as part of a very small group of people.

The text you have highlighted was made on the basis that:

Whilst I have worked on team building with small groups in a ‘management setting’, which I consider to be ‘semi-artificial’, I do not know how these events relate to a ‘real-life’ scenario in similar conditions to those given in the task given by Laura. These team building events fail to capture what I anticipate will be real stresses in practice, or that is my perception, I may be wrong.

I have attended many different forms of ‘consensus building’ courses (eg Open space, Big Foot), and again, for the situation we are confronted with, I also consider these to be ‘semi-artificial’.

The text/notes presented comes from many sources, again, mainly in a ‘management setting’ and whilst they are reported as working, I was looking for reassurance on how they relate to a ‘real-life’ situation with all its attendant stressors.

And, I also lack experience of Scott-Peck’s form of community building (he stopped doing them just as I got interested), which I believe is based on ‘T’ group practice. So, whilst I have quoted, and based the framework partly around his writings, I cannot relate to its validity in a practical, experiential sense. The project I started was to see if the ‘T’ group effects could be softened using a combination of other approaches.

Putting all this together now; from the posts of both go2 and Jeremy F Kreuz (the only ones to speak of practical experience), I consider that they could fill in some of the practical gaps; relate theory to practice; to update what I have written; etc, for all of us to use in this exercise – which may be a real life event in the future. That was the ‘intent’ of what you have termed ‘fishing’. I understand your concern. I take it as a good observation on the likely dynamics that may take place. The intent was more to do with ‘putting things in order’; something I have recently discovered is a driver. A big one too!

I trust that I have answered your question to your satisfaction, if otherwise, please press me further, and thank you for reading the new thread.

 

[Buddy]

The problem most people have is that they have no ability to imagine things different from what they know (or think they know). It's like archaeologists and historians who interpret the past in terms of the present. Reminds me of the "Motel of the Mysteries." (If you haven't read this little story, it's well worth finding and reading.)

I looked up "Motel of the Mysteries" to find out what it is about and I see the connection to the discovery of the village: Skara Brae.

Are there any clues to help develop the ability to "imagine things different from what they know (or think they know)"?

The only thing I know to do is to start with a blank mind, so to speak, imagining the scene in it's own setting, as it is, as it seems to have existed in it's own time period and to try and imagine what the environmental and cosmic elements of the setting were, at that time. I think that coming up with some clues to the environmental and cosmic context would explain the functions of the various parts of the "motel of the past" and the Skara Brae.

 

[Ollie]

Hi Niemma Eluch

I only had time to note your post, rather than digest it fully, when I posted a reply to GotoGo (and included you in the reply).

Your comments are pertinent, and open. This is accepted and would, in my opinion be part of the 'group situation'. Also, what you suggest, is also likely to happen; I have seen it happen. Feedback from anyone is welcome, and I think I explained my reasoning for only naming two people in my reply to GotoGo.

I accept that we (all, well most of us) as members of the forum do not know each other and it is important to understand the meaning behind the words written; to break down barriers and to 'get in tune' with one another.

Let me expand on a quote that I made to GotoGo on the other thread, the quote (my words - I was 'living them' at the time in my small organisation) is from my MBA dissertation and is repeated here to enable you to understand where i was/am coming from (back in 2001).

'... To function effectively, it is recommended that the knowledge society needs community rather than culture, where individual freedom, active involvement and responsibility is directly accessible. Social integration and community is accomplished through trust, collaboration and open communication between people engaged in organisations. ... Furthermore, community provides the vehicle for influencing the larger system of society, the 'butterfly effect' providing the catalyst for change through people, both individually and collectively, at choice in their response to external influences.'

 

[John G]

The problem most people have is that they have no ability to imagine things different from what they know (or think they know). It's like archaeologists and historians who interpret the past in terms of the present.

 

[Laurentien2]

Reading your post this morning gave me food for the thought Laura. After reading it, I went for my daily walk in the forest and with your words still echoing in me. Here is what came out.

First I remembered Mouravieff words:

"What then is the meaning of human life in the cosmos as we know it? Man's existence has two main purpose: As an element of the universal organism, it serve the aims of the latter; - as an isolated individual, he can pursue his own aims.
The position of man in the universe is analogous to that of a cell in the human body. Each cell is part of a organ which, in turn, is a element of a group of organs that assures proper accomplishment of some definite function of the organism.

He goes on an explain that each cell is subject to two categories of law, the general law an the law of exception. The first keep the cell in place, the second leaves a certain liberty of action for the cell. The general law obliges the cells that compose organs to fulfill the roles given to them, remain in there place, complete their work, and dedicated their lives to it. If this law fail, the organs will fail to accomplish their function and would not be able to exist. He goes on to say that the complete remove of certain organs (group of cells) leads to no serious functional inconvenience for the body. Cells that escape from this law enter the domain of the law of exception.

This escape of a few cells is a phenomenon which occurs constantly. All our cells from the epidermic to the nervous are constantly renewed according to different and variable rhythms. In addition to this renewal from within, there are also disappearance, compensated or not compensated for by new units.
Up to this point, the analogy whit what happens to man because of the General Law and the Law of exception could be taken as complete.

For man the General law act through A influence (negative) in a sts world. A world that as lost is true leader, who as adopted and accepted the leadership of an usurper, a cancer, that slowly but surely conquered the whole body. He is call the devil, the Crafty one and as achieved is design by putting boundaries around us but still left place for some "free movement" within these boundaries. quote:

" Within these boundaries, which are very limited objectively although subjectively they appear vast, man can give free rein to is fantasies and his ambitions."

But again, under certain influence, B or positive, man can escape the General Law and work to be free of it if he persist to pursue the goal of the B influence. Where the cells of the body who escaped the General law went we don't know but where individual man goes is know. They start on a quest and their goal is to find the source, the heart of these influence but many are the obstacle and one must chose wisely is path.

To a individual man under the law of Exception but still part of the organic world, he can now see that he is part of a diseased world, that the organism (organ) to whom he was attach is sick and that the sickness come from it leadership or heart. He as quested recognized and join a new organism where truth and knowledge is shared and as started to communicate with the different cells constituting that new body (society). Every cells (individual) bring their own specification, every cell as developed to a different degree is physical, intellectual and emotional an as developed specialization. Their role, in this new society, is to assume their natural function once more but cleanse from the old influence, The General Law that was operating under A influence in the old society will be operating under B influence to progress to C, to D etc.

From reading Laura post specifically this part;

Then, there was the suggestion to try to structure the STO society like a body, decide who is going to be the brain, the heart, the arms, the legs, etc.

The problem most people have is that they have no ability to imagine things different from what they know (or think they know). It's like archaeologists and historians who interpret the past in terms of the present. Reminds me of the "Motel of the Mysteries." (If you haven't read this little story, it's well worth finding and reading.) this part;

I can see now that a cell of a STO organism is to accomplish what it do best, and to give all when asked, it will do what is natural for it to do and give all at every stage of is evolution. To start "doing" what is not natural for it to do, is to not serve the society in is full potential. If a cell from the liver start doing function of the brain or heart without the knowledge, it result in a society like we live today, a diseased and cancerous one.

 

[Nienna]

Hi Niemma Eluch

I only had time to note your post, rather than digest it fully, when I posted a reply to GotoGo (and included you in the reply).

Your comments are pertinent, and open. This is accepted and would, in my opinion be part of the 'group situation'. Also, what you suggest, is also likely to happen; I have seen it happen. Feedback from anyone is welcome, and I think I explained my reasoning for only naming two people in my reply to GotoGo.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Trevrizent. It is appreciated.

 

[Yossarian]

SAO Wrote:

Quote from: ISOTM
One must begin with the causes that are in man himself. How can he be independent of the external influences of great cosmic forces when he is the slave of everything that surrounds him? He is controlled by everything around him. If he becomes free from things, he may then become free from planetary influences.
The scenario in this thread "eases" cosmic influences and gives us a chance to structure things differently before those influences return in full force, on a global dominion kind of scale. The playing field is temporarily leveled - and this DOES offer an opportunity for change, and I see nothing that G said that contradicts this.

Please forgive me if I am incorrect, but I did a search of this topic and can't find mention of O.P.'s. We know something about the nature of O.P.'s and we know that as long as O.P.'s are present, they are a direct pathway for "cosmic influences."

Whatever is done has to take into account not only pathology, but the presence and nature of O.P.'s and their extreme usefulness to 4D controllers. It's a very sticky problem, I think.

 

[Joan]

I have had fascination with Skara Brae in recent years and have often pondered about this society and wondered how it fuctioned, in it's simplicity it also appears very sophisticated in its structure and layout I will post links, below there was also a short programme on Radio 4 recently but have been unable to find it. I thought I had it saved.
Anyway the links are belohttp://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/skara_brae_gallery_07.shtmlw

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/media_museum/media_museum_index1_sections_1to3.shtml
on the right sidebar you can take a virtual tour of the structure.
Will search some more.

 

[Beau]

Whatever is done has to take into account not only pathology, but the presence and nature of O.P.'s and their extreme usefulness to 4D controllers. It's a very sticky problem, I think.

On the other hand, OPs are not evil, per se, so my guess would be that a lot of them would useful in such a situation, considering that many have become good obyvatels and would have some skill or expertise to give to the group. So I think that their usefulness would equal, or perhaps even outweigh, their potential problems.

 

[Joan]

Here is a video from You Tube from Skara Brae. It tours the sight. The music is a little distracting but I thought the the radio carbon dating interesting if its true. I have never noticed the domed structure in other images of Skara Brae before and to me was reminiscent of the Anasazi dwellings in New Mexico.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naBsARZ3DSg&NR=1