Creating a New World

[Bluestar]

In nature a plant knows how to grow. Who decides?

Yes and there are very invasive plants that take over where another plant once occupied. Then all the critters that survived on the invaded plant, that does not live off this new invasive plant, will either have to readjust if they can or die because their lifesource has been killed.

The thing is, there are actually a lot of people who are not psychopathological who ought to give up ideas of reproducing at all, particularly if they carry genes for certain defects that cause suffering. The only exceptions I can think of is if those genetics also often come with other heightened abilities that are valuable to society. Additionally, populations ought to be controlled, preferably by the personal choice of the individuals who make up the group and not imposed from "above." A person ought to look at themselves and their partner realistically, have good knowledge of their genetics, good counseling, consider their society, and make intelligent decisions about whether or not to have a child. Remember, it was the Fascist god who said "be fruitful and multiply..." and he was talking to his psychopathic followers. They have only been interested in producing more cannon fodder.

I could not agree more. Just watch the Jerry Springer show! And from my perspective this is not a prejudice, postjudice or anything of that elk. It is pure observation & discernment.

Thinking that the word controlled has also been ponerized in various ways.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/control

control definition con·trol (kən trōl′)

transitive verb controlled -·trolled′, controlling -·trol′·ling

1.Obsolete to check or verify (payments, accounts, etc.) by comparison with a duplicate register
2.to regulate (financial affairs)
3.to verify (an experiment) by comparison with a standard or by other experiments
4.to exercise authority over; direct; command
5.to operate or regulate this knob controls the volume of sound
6.to hold back; curb; restrain control your grief
Etymology: ME countrollen < Anglo-Fr contreroller < Fr contrerole
< ML contrarotulus, a counter, register < L contra, against + rotulus: see roll

There has to be a reasonable, educated & practical application of controlling things as to make sure that things in general survive. Controlling our population on the BBM is the most logical approach to human & all the beings living successfully on the planet. How we go about this has to be from a non-poneroloical direction.

Agreeing with Laura here

So far, I think Smaragde's solution is the best: education and exclusion/control by refusing the manipulations of the psychopath and making it possible that they could be bred out of existence. Of course, that doesn't mean that a new batch won't come along, mutating out of the human gene pool. And how to really breed them out of existence by refusal to mate with them if their genes are scattered all through the human population?

Very tricky issue.

Possible combined solution:

1) Put the violent ones in a high security facility for the rest of their lives. Doesn't seem to be any other solution that is humane.
2) Non-violent, but emotionally destructive: if they can do jobs that their natures' support, fine, but only with everyone knowing their nature and constantly networking so that they can't create problems.
3) I can't see manipulating their brains electronically - sets a bad precedent - and they really aren't to blame for being born the way they are, so no need to take vengeance on them.
4) All of them probably ought to be "neutered." One could imagine that if they DID have what they don't have genetically - conscience - they would opt to not pass on their genes, so helping them by lending them some conscience isn't such a bad idea, IMO.

My husband, an ex-deputy sheriff, was watching a TV show last night called "Cook County Jail" on the Discovery channel.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=7128192

Walking into the room I sat down to see what he was watching. My mouth was in an open position, for I watched awhile being mesmerized by what I saw. It was amazing to see what the prison guards go through each and everyday. The prisoners were in a maximum security facility, separate from the general population. Somehow, even while in their separated cells, they managed to create weapons, start fights and start fires. One wonders how they even got something to start a fire with. My thoughts kept coming back to this discussion. There are some pretty bad people out there. They consistently cause others harm, even when incarcerated. There was one man, that ever time he was caught doing something illegal, like creating a weapon , he blamed someone else. It was never his fault. He blamed the guards for setting him up by planting the weapon on him. Or leaving a shard of metal around so of course naturally he would create a weapon with it. He even blamed the guards for starting the fire in his cell when he was in there alone. Now the guards and psychologist knew his antics and just gave him the opportunity to tell his side of the story. Then they told him he was going to be further charge with additional crimes that he committed. So, hoping that he will wind up living out the rest of his life inside some penitentiary system. The Cook County jail is just for those awaiting trial. This TV show was watching psychopaths in action.

 

[Leo40]

Thank you AI and Ana for your responses. My posting needs some clarification and I want to start
with a brief summary of my albeit limited understanding so far of what the Cassiopaean Experiment
is all about.
We all need Knowledge about the 3D world we find ourselves in after thousands of years of lies and
manipulation. The Cass. and Laura's work gave us direction and tools to clear our machines in all aspects,
physical, emotional and psychological.
This work has to be done by every sincere seeker after truth individually.
Only after that can a colinear group consciousness develop. Once this group is established it's purpose then
becomes the anchoring of the incoming energy/information. This in turn will help and ameliorate the transition
to 4D both for those ready and for the earth as a whole.
Based on that, the entire thread puzzled me, because we are not supposed to create a new world in 3D
but prepare ourselves for 4D.
All the suggestions and thoughts developed in this thread really apply to the Fellowship imo.,which exists in 3D.
The wording "inner guidance" refers to the awareness of a developed consciousness not to the sleeping ego,
Perhaps I should have used 6D influences, meaning connections to one's greater soul consciousness since we
are all part of something larger.
Please let me know if these ideas are off track or somewhat close.

 

[MichaelM]

I think I have an idea of where Leo40 could be coming from.

From the present day lay person's perspective, talking about segregation, population control, eugenics (in terms of re-considering reproduction if you carry the "psychopathic gene") would seem very disturbing. And without a proper background of psychopathology and ponerology, the suggestions put up for controlling/weeding out the psychopaths from the human gene pool does not seem much different from what the current and previous governments in human history have been doing.
While some individuals are at that point of their development that a "shock" like this would be beneficial for their further development, most other people would merely use this as a reason for sinking further into their sleep/mechanical-ness.

So it really would be difficult to effectively and beneficially participate in such a discussion if you're not "up to speed" with the information/background of the subject being discussed.

Also, opening this topic up for discussion in such a public forum, where a significant number of people not familiar with the subject of psychopathology could be an opening for attack...
But then again, it does have to be brought up in the "public space" sometime...

Anyway, back to the currently proposed solutions. After some thought, I think I'm on the same page as what Laura's suggested.

So far, I think Smaragde's solution is the best: education and exclusion/control by refusing the manipulations of the psychopath and making it possible that they could be bred out of existence. Of course, that doesn't mean that a new batch won't come along, mutating out of the human gene pool. And how to really breed them out of existence by refusal to mate with them if their genes are scattered all through the human population?

Very tricky issue.

Possible combined solution:

1) Put the violent ones in a high security facility for the rest of their lives. Doesn't seem to be any other solution that is humane.
2) Non-violent, but emotionally destructive: if they can do jobs that their natures' support, fine, but only with everyone knowing their nature and constantly networking so that they can't create problems.
3) I can't see manipulating their brains electronically - sets a bad precedent - and they really aren't to blame for being born the way they are, so no need to take vengeance on them.
4) All of them probably ought to be "neutered." One could imagine that if they DID have what they don't have genetically - conscience - they would opt to not pass on their genes, so helping them by lending them some conscience isn't such a bad idea, IMO.

For #2, I thought about having separate areas of non-psychopaths only and areas with mixed psychopaths and non-psychopaths. With the mixed areas being something like a "school"/"training ground" of sorts. Non-psychopaths entering this area would be fully informed what they're getting themselves into. (After thinking about it... it's not unlike STO's entering 3D Earth. :O Except for being cognizant about it while residing here on 3D Earth... Like entering a planet and losing your Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.)

If ever they're weeded out, I could imagine that there would come a time in the far future that psychopaths would be merely myths and legends, people would forget and then be open to attack again. I could imagine children taking a trip to the museum and looking at a "psychopath display" much like a "hominid display" and not getting the idea or only getting it superficially.


Going a little off tangent here...

I think that, even with an effective solution for keeping the psychopaths in check and eventually weeding them out, the most difficult part of the solution is still the education of the public about psychopaths. Imho, unless one has personally encountered a psychopath and has had a traumatic experience from their interaction with them, it would be very difficult to introduce the idea of the psychopath (as an individual that looks human but has absolutely no capacity for empathy). And even then it still is a bit difficult for their individual to wrap their head around that idea.

So would part of the solution to the problem of "educating the public" be to allow the oppressive conditions to continue and worsen? Or to actively seek the people who are more receptive to learning about psychopaths (i.e. who have been traumatized be them)?

 

[MichaelM]

Apologies for going a bit off tangent (with musings about how to tackle the problem of "education of the public about psychopaths") in my previous post. I was reading through the thread again and the idea was already brought up in earlier.

The first thing I think that would need to happen is for some individuals to want to Create a New World. There would need to be some kind of 'Bankruptcy' on the part of many - on a macro level - that would help bring them to the point of seeing how things truly are. This seems to be happening of course, and this thread is some evidence of it. With a desire to grow and change, with awareness of the fact that the stage is rigged against us, many will be hungry to find a new way. People will, unwittingly even, become a part of what is working simply because they see how they benefit from it (being sts, still, of course) but, also, maybe, because it resonates to something internal that is seeking an sto way of being.

And it seems (I'm at page 5 of 31 of this thread as of this writing) that the topic of education was already covered. I'll do a full read through again of the thread to refresh and catch up on the current discussion. There's so much going on on so many aspects (education, "political/governmental" structure, economics, etc.) it's hard to keep it all in the brain while addressing the last topic of the thread.
But I guess it is good exercise to expand the short term memory capacity.

*going back to re-reading the thread*

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Based on that, the entire thread puzzled me, because we are not supposed to create a new world in 3D
but prepare ourselves for 4D.
All the suggestions and thoughts developed in this thread really apply to the Fellowship imo.,which exists in 3D.

Preparing for 4D means learning the lessons of 3D. This includes knowledge of how to interact with all beings in 3D, which leads to the below:

The wording "inner guidance" refers to the awareness of a developed consciousness not to the sleeping ego,
Perhaps I should have used 6D influences, meaning connections to one's greater soul consciousness since we
are all part of something larger.

This clears up the confusion, but begs the question: What about those who cannot develop such consciousness? Or who can, but have not yet? Individuals who cannot see the "high road" (because they lack the developed centers with which to do the seeing) need guidance. These would be level I and II individuals in Dabrowski's system. Each person requires a different program of development, depending on their personality, potential, abilities, etc. It's just like in a school setting. Some children need more discipline and more rules than others. Some are fairly self-sufficient and only need a push here or there. It all comes down to external considering, giving each what he or she is asking for. Some kids don't understand that hitting other kids is wrong and must be told so. Positive behavior must be reinforced and it must be made clear that some behaviors are off limits.

 

[anart]

Thank you AI and Ana for your responses. My posting needs some clarification and I want to start
with a brief summary of my albeit limited understanding so far of what the Cassiopaean Experiment
is all about.
We all need Knowledge about the 3D world we find ourselves in after thousands of years of lies and
manipulation. The Cass. and Laura's work gave us direction and tools to clear our machines in all aspects,
physical, emotional and psychological.

This is true, thus far, if you add that the knowledge we need is not just about this 3D existence, but, more importantly, about ourselves.

This work has to be done by every sincere seeker after truth individually.
Only after that can a colinear group consciousness develop.

This is where you veer off target. The Work must be done by each person, but they cannot do it on their own - individually. It is impossible. It MUST be done with the robust feedback mechanism of a network. That network is the 'collinear group' - and it is essential to the individual, to be able to do the Work. If others had not gone before us, we would not be able to move forward because no one can do this alone, individually.

Once this group is established it's purpose then
becomes the anchoring of the incoming energy/information.

No, the group is already established - in this case 'the group' is the Esoteric Circle, ala Gurdjieff. As a person progresses in the Work, they become more able to receive the incoming energy/information - their receivership capability increases and they, in turn, become more aligned to the Esoteric Circle.

This in turn will help and ameliorate the transition
to 4D both for those ready and for the earth as a whole.

Perhaps. The current working hypothesis is that this Work, and those who partake in it, may very well define where we, and this realm, go from here - but the details of that are beyond my current understanding.

Based on that, the entire thread puzzled me, because we are not supposed to create a new world in 3D
but prepare ourselves for 4D.

Nope - you're skipping a step. You are basically suggesting that we live for the 'afterlife' much like any fundamental christian might do. That's not the point. The point is to use the present to understand the past and prepare for the future. This 3D existence is our school - it is here we must learn how to Create. We do not know what result this will have and if we are to seed a new world, or enter a new reality, or do any of those things that are hypothetically upcoming, we MUST understand enough about ourselves and how to live well, in True Existence - how to Truly Live - not only in our own lives, but on a societal level.

All the suggestions and thoughts developed in this thread really apply to the Fellowship imo.,which exists in 3D.

As they should, for now. We can't know what will grow from that, so we must deal with 'now', as it were.

Hopefully that helps clarify, or at least doesn't confuse further.

 

[Leo40]

Thank you anart. Your response is most helpful.
There still remains the old saying: You can lead the horse to water....

 

[Buddy]

The recent discussion on 'population control' got me thinking about numbers, because I figured it wasn't meant in the conventionally understood context.

In 1996, the world population was estimated at 5.8 billion. If 2 out of every 100 people were mind-programmed, that's about 120 million, of which over 14 million of those were programmed by human means. If 4% of the population were psychopaths that would be about 240 million.

In July, 2002, the C's stated that a "souled" individual encounters half as many organic portals as souled, in his/her/lifetime, and that if the person is engaged in Work that 'grows' and strengthens the soul, the Control System seeks to inject even more into a person's life.

If we consider the size of our group as only 200, or even 2000, and even if we were not distributed around the globe, we are still surrounded by a huge number of efficient machines, a great deal of which are defective, and a Control System wanting to inject more and more.

That's enough to encourage some pause and consideration to just about any idea, I think. :)


ref:
Session 020713, 960525
_http://www.census.gov/ipc/prod/ib96_03.pdf

 

[thevenusian]

Expanding further upon Buddy’s last post, that Control System has been fine-tuned and worked on with extraordinary patience and long-term planning for thousands of years, likely allowing for the accumulation of wealth and power which is unmatched by any counter force which might balance it. It has also selected the most capable & ruthless to wield that power and refined this selection process again over thousands of years.

There have been hints from the C’s that a small number acting as a colinear group may have more power than might be thought in affecting a balance, but if that is the case it would be something we are still in the process of learning about, and not at all certain, at least to very limited old me. I would prefer that something like this is how we are able to affect this change, but at present I don’t see how this can be without engaging in a little wishful thinking.

I must confess that I have always viewed the topic in this thread along ‘after the Apocalypse’ lines in actual practice, because in the face of these overwhelming odds it does not seem possible to affect these kinds of changes without having the playing field leveled, like through a huge population and infrastructure reduction and an opportunity to ‘start over’. It seems absolutely important to go through the thinking and imagining process in order to develop understanding and knowledge about the issues being discussed here though, because it is the principles and truth are what we are after.

This thread has been very thought-provoking. I agree with all the ideas about keeping psychopaths separate and in prison, etc, but this scenario seems more in keeping with an advanced society which has already developed with wisdom and clarity over a long period of time. How would such a situation be possible to come about here on planet Earth as we know it now, in our lifetimes? Our group vs the Secret Team? And who makes the decisions to put psychopaths in their own world or prison even before any crimes have been committed? We all see how giving this sort of power to any group has worked out so far around here.

I keep returning to the idea of the Inuit, who when a young person without conscience is identified, take him out hunting one day and see that he falls into the sea and never returns. I myself do not the moral clarity or wherewithall to ever make a decision like that, much less carry it out, but perhaps in a simpler world with a more urgent imperative to survive it could become clear. That is an extreme example, but is it really more of an abrogation of a person’s free will than shutting them up in a prison for their whole life? The decision is being made that they have no place with the primary society in each case. Perhaps the Inuit choice is the more compassionate one in this realm, especially if the mutation allows for no opportunity to grow or change. I don’t know. Very difficult ideas. Obviously the Inuit solution has no place in our current existence and modern cultures and I am not proposing it as a viable solution, I’m just using it to provoke further thought because I’m not sure we have really gotten to the center of these ideas yet.

 

[Buddy]

I must confess that I have always viewed the topic in this thread along ‘after the Apocalypse’ lines in actual practice, because in the face of these overwhelming odds it does not seem possible to affect these kinds of changes without having the playing field leveled, like through a huge population and infrastructure reduction and an opportunity to ‘start over’.

If I'm understanding you correctly, even if some kind of catastrophe leads to a 'starting over', I don't see how that would help with the issues of dealing with psychopaths, ponerization and transpersonification. As long as the old structures of thought, ignorance, vunerability and obedience are still in place, in people's minds, a new psychopath rule will rise up from the ashes of the previous pathocracy to take its place because the psychos will 'suggest it' and the authoritarians (followers) will demand it.

This thread has been very thought-provoking. I agree with all the ideas about keeping psychopaths separate and in prison, etc, but this scenario seems more in keeping with an advanced society which has already developed with wisdom and clarity over a long period of time. How would such a situation be possible to come about here on planet Earth as we know it now, in our lifetimes? Our group vs the Secret Team? And who makes the decisions to put psychopaths in their own world or prison even before any crimes have been committed? We all see how giving this sort of power to any group has worked out so far around here.

I agree. The answer is not clear to me either. The way I'm seeing it, if the issue of 'what to do with the psychopaths' doesn't seem clear it's just because I don't have sufficient BEing yet. I have a framework of knowledge that has grown quite a bit and is still being filled in, and I'm using my observational ability to discover the relationships and patterns that were previously blind spots, but I still have a ways to go.

 

[realitybugll]

[quote author=realitybugll]-----Sorry for incoherency, the post may be a waste of your time, but i did want to contribute maybe selfishly.
-------Also don't correct my ideas... I can probably find answers reading this thread myself which I haven't done. This post is inconsiderate because I really have not read much of what this thread is about,

Why then should we read your post? I am assuming you are aware of the forum on which you are posting.

[quote author=realitybugll]but I already wrote my post, so i will post it.[/quote]

Sorry, this doesn't fly.

Why not just express your ideas? What have you to lose by some critical responses?
[/quote]

I don't think I explained well what I meant, but I understand some of things your saying. I think it's strange that you comment on the way I phrased my ideas rather then the ideas themselves. What you said is helpful though, so thank you.

 

[thevenusian]

If I'm understanding you correctly, even if some kind of catastrophe leads to a 'starting over', I don't see how that would help with the issues of dealing with psychopaths, ponerization and transpersonification. As long as the old structures of thought, ignorance, vunerability and obedience are still in place, in people's minds, a new psychopath rule will rise up from the ashes of the previous pathocracy to take its place because the psychos will 'suggest it' and the authoritarians (followers) will demand it.

I agree. The answer is not clear to me either. The way I'm seeing it, if the issue of 'what to do with the psychopaths' doesn't seem clear it's just because I don't have sufficient BEing yet. I have a framework of knowledge that has grown quite a bit and is still being filled in, and I'm using my observational ability to discover the relationships and patterns that were previously blind spots, but I still have a ways to go.

I quite agree that 'starting over' does nothing to address the fundamentals of psychopaths in the mix. But in terms of us vs them it might simplify and equalize the huge advantages they enjoy currently and at least allow for non-psychopaths to make a few moves on the playing field toward their own right to their destiny. Right now it seems 'they' (meaning the most successful psychopaths- at the top) enjoy practically every advantage.

I also think where you are going with the second part of your response is actually the heart of the matter, for whatever strategy is to be successfully employed would absolutely need to be coming from 3D humans in complete alignment with Divine Cosmic Mind. Those with conscience would never seek to raise a hand against their fellow humans. But if among us dwell predators who seek to subvert and enslave/use/kill, isn't it is incumbent upon us to preserve our own ability to continue to exist and grow? If that is not true, then why don't we all just lay down and allow ourselves to be killed by the psychopaths? I am just prodding the definitions we commonly use and trying to look deeper, not trying to get creepy. If someone intends to end my existence to further their aim, is it wrong to consider that my response might be then to return to them exactly what they intended? I don't know the answer either, but I also don't feel satisfied with anything anyone has come up with yet on this subject. Still trying to understand, and thank you, Buddy, for your response.

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=realitybugll]I don't think I explained well what I meant[/quote]

OK, fair enough. It's not always easy to do, I know.

I think it's strange that you comment on the way I phrased my ideas. . .

Actually I addressed the opening of your post which was in the form of a disclaimer.

rather then the ideas themselves.

Because this:

-------Also don't correct my ideas... I can probably find answers reading this thread myself which I haven't done

reads as you didn't want anyone to comment, that maybe you wanted to avoid feeling intimidation.

 

[neema]

As I have been reading this thread, I have developed a thought and would like to share it. It has been touched on already but to me it seems like a possible solution to the problems of psychopathy. In my opinion the key factor in the discussion is numbers. When I look at the human experience whether now or 1000 years ago, it seems to me the problems arise when we as humans band together in large numbers or groups. Thereby creating the possible condition where we facilitate the infrastructure necessary for positions of power that are highly attractive to deviants. When you look at everything, from health to food to housing, tyranny is possible in large groups of concentrated people.

What do I mean?

Well this is what I imagine when I hear the word “utopia". A global network of high-tech villages (200 people max per village) spread in a cascading format. All in contact with each other locally, through local trade, and globally through technological means. The said 200 people would be in charge of providing for the groups survival needs, housing, food, and health, etc…

To me, when you start to think too big you start to run into problems. Because even deviants come in variety they will be dealt with in verity. I think it's much more manageable for 200 people to take care of 12 deviants among them, than say 100,000 trying to contain 6000 individuals. Of curse ponorology must be taught in a way that it becomes a biological fact where everyone even children at a very early stage understand the basic mechanisms, like digestion. It has been mentioned in this thread that perhaps reducing psychopathy to the close point of elimination, after a long time one tends to forget about it. Well just because we know about digestion and its workings doesn't mean we have forgotten its role over time. The importance is the ideology being engraved into our psyche.

If numbers are kept down, there just won't be positions that can create great harm to large numbers. This way a larger project that will require the participation of more people, say building a bridge, the villages in the immediate area will group together for the project complete it and disband to their local areas. This way many problems can be solved according to individual and local needs.

Think about it, disasters, disease, and general problems of all sorts can be easily and efficiently tackled. If one village is in trouble, the surrounding villages come to the rescue locally with an access to a global information network for support. Even if that problem might be a psychopathic takeover of a certain village. If psychopathy is seen as a disease it will be dealt with as a disease. And since it’s local it can be dealt with easier, and the results shared globally.

Of course we should be connected globally in some sort of a virtual environment, something similar to the internet where ideas can be shared and refined then utilized according to the local need. No global production of any sort.

Technology should be done the way Laura has described it. As an enhancement of the natural abilities of the human being. There should be no technology that you just press a button and it goes to work. Think Wilhelm Reich. In fact to take it further, the focus should be on the development of super natural human abilities as the ultimate technology.

Just imagine connecting to the "network,” the said individual must meditate and establish a certain vibrational frequency to reach the virtual forum. We can have technology that can enhance this ability at the beginning, even help us structure it for consistency. But ultimately its function depends on interaction of humans with higher FRV.

This method of connection will create the need for spiritual work, if one wants to "connect". It will automatically stop individuals that are not ready and eliminate deviants as they cannot attain the proper frequency. No Isps, no government control, no spam. The infrastructure of said technology would be the universe itself.

Possible combined solution:

1) Put the violent ones in a high security facility for the rest of their lives. Doesn't seem to be any other solution that is humane.
2) Non-violent, but emotionally destructive: if they can do jobs that their natures' support, fine, but only with everyone knowing their nature and constantly networking so that they can't create problems.
3) I can't see manipulating their brains electronically - sets a bad precedent - and they really aren't to blame for being born the way they are, so no need to take vengeance on them.
4) All of them probably ought to be "neutered." One could imagine that if they DID have what they don't have genetically - conscience - they would opt to not pass on their genes, so helping them by lending them some conscience isn't such a bad idea, IMO.

Any other ideas?

I think if the numbers are kept low, all the ideas on what to do will be much easier to implement, and flexible enough to flow into individual local needs. Also, since there is flexibility in implementation at a vast variety, this would be fertile ground for maximum creativity of solutions to problems. If certain ideas and practices fail, the damage is limited and there would be plenty of support to help things back on track with the understanding of the failure shared into the network. And of course if an idea is a success it will be utilized and refined multifold and shared back into the network in a continues feedback loop.

In short, think universal, connect global, and act local.

Then again maybe I am in fantasy land today. ;D

 

[SeekinTruth]

This issue of what to do about psychopaths (and related psychopathologies) is a REALLY complex one. There's the whole problem of educating non-psychopaths about the problem. There's the problem that the obviously violent / anti-social ones are easier to identify and figure out what to do with than the really clever, well disguised ones. The more intelligent and successful psychopaths are much more dangerous generally to humanity than the low level violent criminals. (And there's also all sorts of variations in between). The really clever, tricky ones commit crimes on a very large scale.

Whereas a serial killer, let's say, commits 10 murders with whatever horrible details and particularities of this specific one, it seems to uneducated non-psychopaths that this is the most heinous, terrifying thing imaginable. But as terrible as it is, the chance of such a psychopath being caught and imprisoned is relatively high, and as terrible as it is, the damage caused by such a serial killer is also relatively limited. On the other hand, the kinds of psychopaths (and characteropaths, etc.) that are responsible for say 10 million murders are much more likely never to be held to account, and on the contrary, are quite likely to have streets or cities named after them. This is the reality we are coming from when we try to "create a new world."

As I have been reading this thread, I have developed a thought and would like to share it. It has been touched on already but to me it seems like a possible solution to the problems of psychopathy. In my opinion the key factor in the discussion is numbers. When I look at the human experience whether now or 1000 years ago, it seems to me the problems arise when we as humans band together in large numbers or groups. Thereby creating the possible condition where we facilitate the infrastructure necessary for positions of power that are highly attractive to deviants. When you look at everything, from health to food to housing, tyranny is possible in large groups of concentrated people.

Yes, I think that the size of communities being kept to a couple of hundred, say 200 to 400, will right away eliminate the infrastructure of the current kind of pathological rule to a considerable degree, and make relationships that are much healthier possible.

So far, I think Smaragde's solution is the best: education and exclusion/control by refusing the manipulations of the psychopath and making it possible that they could be bred out of existence. Of course, that doesn't mean that a new batch won't come along, mutating out of the human gene pool. And how to really breed them out of existence by refusal to mate with them if their genes are scattered all through the human population?

Very tricky issue.

Possible combined solution:

1) Put the violent ones in a high security facility for the rest of their lives. Doesn't seem to be any other solution that is humane.
2) Non-violent, but emotionally destructive: if they can do jobs that their natures' support, fine, but only with everyone knowing their nature and constantly networking so that they can't create problems.
3) I can't see manipulating their brains electronically - sets a bad precedent - and they really aren't to blame for being born the way they are, so no need to take vengeance on them.
4) All of them probably ought to be "neutered." One could imagine that if they DID have what they don't have genetically - conscience - they would opt to not pass on their genes, so helping them by lending them some conscience isn't such a bad idea, IMO.

Definitely education and exclusion / refusal of their manipulations are key. And much easier to achieve in small groups of a few hundred. I can't see manipulating their brains electronically either. That seems like a really bad idea and getting on the wrong and slippery slope. The "neutered" issue is a sticky situation too, but it may be something that needs further thinking and see if it can be appropriate at least as a transition phase. That's what this thread is for: to think things through.

These are complex problems and it will take a lot of careful thinking with a network to come to some good solutions. And ultimately these would have to be tried out and adjusted in practice. Some of the major aspects of these problems being so complex and difficult to solve is our lack of knowledge. We really don't know enough about genetics and so many other things. The good news is that we've learned a good deal about psychopathy and related disorders; now we need to increase our understanding to how to solve the problems created by them and continue learning about accurately diagnosing and dealing with essential psychopaths.

What also comes to mind is that there are many things that would change and possibilities open up as the initial changes are made to the types of communities we create and live in that are not very clear now. Also, if really good solutions are found in how to deal with genetic psychopaths, will it become more obvious that different, varying solutions will be needed for functional psychopaths who are not born that way but have adapted psychopathic characteristics as a survival and success strategy in a pathocractic world? There's just so much that would probably become clearer as more data and more experience accumulates with experimenting with such communities.

The thing is, there are actually a lot of people who are not psychopathological who ought to give up ideas of reproducing at all, particularly if they carry genes for certain defects that cause suffering. The only exceptions I can think of is if those genetics also often come with other heightened abilities that are valuable to society. Additionally, populations ought to be controlled, preferably by the personal choice of the individuals who make up the group and not imposed from "above." A person ought to look at themselves and their partner realistically, have good knowledge of their genetics, good counseling, consider their society, and make intelligent decisions about whether or not to have a child. Remember, it was the Fascist god who said "be fruitful and multiply..." and he was talking to his psychopathic followers. They have only been interested in producing more cannon fodder.

{...}If we want to fulfill our own destiny, that means controlling our environment: detoxing our mind, body, and spirit. This can only be done in a healthy environment, e.g. in small communities and with a small global population. No one here is advocating violent population reduction, merely that people should be aware of themselves and the fact that, most likely, they're not parent material and there ARE too many people on this planet.

Well, I definitely agree about the problem of overpopulation AND my personal decision to reproduce being questioned. And no, nobody here is advocating violent population reduction, we are clearly against it. Back around 1990, I decided that I will NOT bring any children into this world. It was more of a feeling than a really thoroughly well-thought-out decision. There was some thinking, but more feeling that it would be a mistake to have children. From having learned so much more since then, I think it was a good decision. Besides the problems of the world in general, I'm glad I did not unthinkingly (or wishfully thinking) and automatically fall into the flow of propogating narcissistically wounding new children because I am not free and well enough from my own narcissistic wounding to avoid continuing the cycle.