Creating a New World

Laura said:
So it is still reward. They dominate to GET something. It's a hunger that needs to be filled not just dominating for the sake of dominating and they will always be "hungry" for the suffering of others. That IS what gives them happiness and satisfaction.

Psychopaths (and other related pathological types) actually enjoy the suffering of others. Just as seeing other people happy makes normal people happy for them, these creatures get their pleasure from seeing others suffer. It's not a "drive" that doesn't have a "stoplight," it's a "reward" thing.

<<snipped>>

The bottom line is this: how do you deal with a creature who is just as entitled to "happiness" as anyone else is, but whose idea of happiness is the suffering of others?

I was thinking about this and the ideas of "reward" and "hunger" seems to me to be a bit different. You could have the "biological need" that is hunger yet not "feel rewarded".

Thinking about "hunger" a bit more, how different would the psychopath's "hunger" be to say, the hunger of a lion?
I could imagine that removing a lion from its habitat would disturb the ecological balance of the area... by how much I have no idea. Would it be "good" or "bad" for that specific area?
If people were in the area and the lion(s) were preying on humans, it would be good (subjective perception from human point of view).
If there were no people and other animals were the prey, the other animals would have an increased rate of reproduction. They could evolve into being fatter (because of no more predators) and when a predator is introduced in the distant future, the cycle begins again...

I was toying with the idea that Bluestar brought up with the 1994 movie "No Escape". Then I thought about the Matrix (having watched it again recently)... would it be just as "bad" to lock up the psychopaths in a virtual experience similar to the matrix? And then the victims of their "hunger for hurting" would be virtual constructs?

Going another direction, if we (the non-psychopaths) had the means to turn the psychopath into a non-psychopath (via chemical, surgery, etc), if we had the technology to "grow a conscience", how different would it be from what the psychopaths are doing right now?
(trying to turn the non-psychopaths into sheep / into being more submissive, and easily duped)
How would you feel if someone tried to change your BEing (or at least the layman's definition of BEing)?

But then again, this is just fantasizing and not giving a reasonable "real world" solution to the "real world" problem.

Rounding up and locking up psychopaths (assuming we have a 100% rate of identification) seems to me to ignore the psychopath's "hunger" aspect because the psychopath would probably need to feed off a non-psychopath individual. If the psychopaths could feed off other "lower tier" psychopaths, by the "pyramidal structure" of their feeding, there would always be victims at the bottom that don't feed (or don't adequately feed)...


Tackling the subject again, this time from the "reward" perspective, I remember a very general structure of stages of the development of morality in a person from my psych 101 class back in college. I tried looking it up and found this:

_http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/genpsymoraldev.html
Moral Development

Dr. C. George Boeree

Kohlberg's Theory

Traditionally, psychology has avoided studying anything that is loaded with value judgements. There is a degree of difficulty involved in trying to be unbiased about things that involve terms like "good" and "bad!" So, one of the most significant aspects of human life - morality - has had to wait quite a while before anyone in psychology dared to touch it! But Lawrence Kohlberg wanted to study morality, and did so using a most interesting (if controversial) technique. Basically, he would ask children and adults to try to solve moral dilemmas contained in little stories, and to do so outloud so he could follow their reasoning. It wasn't the specific answers to the dilemmas that interested him, but rather how the person got to his or her answer.

One of the most famous of these stories concerned a man named Heinz. His wife was dying of a disease that could be cured if he could get a certain medicine. When he asked the pharmacist, he was told that he could get the medicine, but only at a very high price - one that Heinz could not possibly afford. So the next evening, Heinz broke into the pharmacy and stole the drug to save his wife's life. Was Heinz right or wrong to steal the drug?

There are simple reasons why Heinz should or should not have stolen the drug, and there are very sophisticated reasons, and reasons in between. After looking at hundreds of interviews using this and several other stories, Kohlberg outlined three broad levels and six more specific stages of moral development.

Level I: Pre-conventional morality. While infants are essentially amoral, very young children are moral in a rather primitive way, as described by the two preconventional stages.

Stage 1. We can call this the reward and punishment stage. Good or bad depends on the physical consequences: Does the action lead to punishment or reward? This stage is based simply on one's own pain and pleasure, and doesn't take others into account.

Stage 2. This we can call the exchange stage. In this stage, there is increased recognition that others have their own interests and should be taken into account. Those interests are still understood in a very concrete fashion, and the child deals with others in terms of simple exchange or reciprocity: "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine." Children in this stage are very concerned with what's "fair" (one of their favorite words), but are not concerned with real justice.

Level II: Conventional morality. By the time children enter elementary school, they are usually capable of conventional morality, although they may often slip back into preconventional morality on occasion. But this level is called conventional for a very good reason: It is also the level that most adults find themselves in most of the time!

Stage 3. This stage is often called the good boy/good girl stage. The child tries to live up to the expectations of others, and to seek their approval. Now they become interested motives or intentions, and concepts such as loyalty, trust, and gratitude are understood. Children in this stage often adhere to a concrete version of the Golden Rule, although it is limited to the people they actually deal with on a day-to-day basis.

Stage 4. This is called the law-and-order stage. Children now take the point of view that includes the social system as a whole. The rules of the society are the bases for right and wrong, and doing one's duty and showing respect for authority are important.

Level III: Post-conventional morality. Some adolescents and adults go a step further and rise above moralities based on authority to ones based on reason.

Stage 5. The social contract stage means being aware of the degree to which much of so-called morality is relative to the individual and to the social group they belong to, and that only a very few fundamental values are universal. The person at this level sees morality as a matter of entering into a rational contract with one's fellow human beings to be kind to each other, respect authority, and follow laws to the extent that they respect and promote those universal values. Social contract morality often involves a utilitarian approach, where the relative value of an act is determined by "the greatest good for the greatest number."

Stage 6. This stage is referred to as the stage of universal principles. At this point, the person makes a personal commitment to universal principles of equal rights and respect, and social contract takes a clear back-seat: If there is a conflict between a social law or custom and universal principles, the universal principles take precedence.

Kohlberg's original work was done with boys. When the research began to include girls, they found the girls to be less morally "developed" than the boys! Psychologist Carol Gilligan, involved in that research, began to notice that it wasn't so easy to distinguish "good boy/good girl" from "universal principles", especially in the girls. Since then, psychologists have readjusted their work to take into account for the fact that girls often express their morality in terms that emphasize personal caring more than abstract principles.

Bronfenbrenner's Theory

Another psychologist unafraid to tackle morallity was Urie Bronfenbrenner. He is famous for his studies of children and schools in different cultures. He outlines five moral orientations:

1. Self-oriented morality. This is analogous to Kohlberg's pre-conventional morality. Basically, the child is only interested in self-gratification and only considers others to the extent that they can help him get what he wants, or hinder him.

The next three orientations are all forms of what Kohlberg called conventional morality:

2. Authority-oriented morality. Here, the child, or adult, basically accepts the decrees of authority figures, from parents up to heads of state and religion, as defining good and bad.

3. Peer-oriented morality. This is basically a morality of conformity, where right and wrong is determined not by authority but by one's peers. In western society, this kind of morality is frequently found among adolescents, as well as many adults.

4. Collective-oriented morality. In this orientation, the standing goals of the group to which the child or adult belongs over-ride individual interests. Duty to one's group or society is paramount.

The last orientation is analogous to Kohlberg's post-conventional level:

5. Objectively oriented morality. By objectively, Bronfenbrenner means universal principles that are objective in the sense that they do not depend on the whims of individuals or social groups, but have a reality all their own.

Bronfenbrenner noted that while 1 is found among children (and some adults) in all cultures, 6 is found in relatively few people in any culture. The differences between 2, 3, and 4 are more a matter of culture than of development. Many cultures promote strict obedience to authority figures. One can see this in very conservative cultures, where the word of the religious authorities is law. In many modern cultures, conformity to one's peers is a powerful force. And in others still, the welfare of the collective group is considered far more important than that of the individual.

Bronfenbrenner also talks about how we get movement from one orientation to another. The movement from 1 to 2, 3, or 4 involves participation in the family and other social structures, where concern for others begins to take precedent over concern for oneself.

Movement from 2, 3, or 4 to 5 occurs when a person is exposed to a number of different moral systems which at least partially conflict with each other, a situation he calls moral pluralism. This forces the person to begin to think about what might lie beneath all the variation, and lead him or her to consider ultimate moral principles. Gaining a broader experience of the variety of people in the world, for example, tends to advance one's moral thinking.

On the other hand, sometimes people slide back down to the lowest orientation when they suffer from the disintegration of social structures, as in war and other social disasters. This can force a person's attentions back onto their own needs, and cause them to begin ignoring the welfare of larger social groupings.

© Copyright 2003, 2009, C. George Boeree

I won't pretend to know a lot about psychology. And I still haven't finished the Ponerology book. But from the quoted link above, would psychopaths be something like children who didn't grow up? I could imagine a parent who had a child that had a learning disability (with no hope of learning because of physiological makeup) could be patient with her child even with the knowledge that her child could not fit into normal everyday life...
(Of course, I'm imagining that a parent could still be patient with your child without the usual "pity programs" and other programs that a parent has and a child learns to use to their advantage...)

Right now, I'm of the opinion that a "No Escape" prison (far away from the non-psychopath populace) with a non-psychopath and very well "psychopathy/ponerology"-informed jail warden and similarly informed guards could be a solution.

The "moral lines" have started to blur on this topic. At least for me.
Mmm, that's a really tough question, Laura. I'll try think about it some more...
 
[quote author=Laura]The bottom line is this: how do you deal with a creature who is just as entitled to "happiness" as anyone else is, but whose idea of happiness is the suffering of others?[/quote]
IMO, you should never live with such a person; your idea of hapiness is just contradictory to his! But of course this does not say what actions should be taken if you find one such person in your household.
I think for now, the best solution is total isolation of each person who will be proved to be a psychopath, until a better solution is found.
 
Michael Martin said:
Laura said:
So it is still reward. They dominate to GET something. It's a hunger that needs to be filled not just dominating for the sake of dominating and they will always be "hungry" for the suffering of others. That IS what gives them happiness and satisfaction.

Psychopaths (and other related pathological types) actually enjoy the suffering of others. Just as seeing other people happy makes normal people happy for them, these creatures get their pleasure from seeing others suffer. It's not a "drive" that doesn't have a "stoplight," it's a "reward" thing.

<<snipped>>

The bottom line is this: how do you deal with a creature who is just as entitled to "happiness" as anyone else is, but whose idea of happiness is the suffering of others?
<snip>
I won't pretend to know a lot about psychology. And I still haven't finished the Ponerology book. But from the quoted link above, would psychopaths be something like children who didn't grow up?

Michael, since you are trying to answer Laura's question above, with this question of yours are you implying that children's "idea of happiness is the suffering of others"? :O ;)

Back to Laura's question, i had a thought which is more on the theoretical plane so, fwiw:

Psychopaths are a part of creation, so they have the right to be as they are and behave as they are. And if all in life is lessons and when one learns a lesson they move on to different lesson, then i think that if as a community we learn to distinguish the psychopaths among us and put in action the knowledge and stop "feeding" them in all ways, they will move on to where food is available. And they will become those people's lesson, and perhaps after we help educate those people too, or they figure things out on their own, at one point far into the future, the psychopaths will become extinct if by then everybody recognizes them and refuses to mate with them. And perhaps our next lesson will involve dealing with 4D STS beings... :jawdrop:

2 cents...
 
Smaragde said:
Michael, since you are trying to answer Laura's question above, with this question of yours are you implying that children's "idea of happiness is the suffering of others"? :O ;)

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. Thanks for catching that.
Yes, now that you've pointed it out, "feeding off the suffering of others" is a world of difference from "no external consideration".
 
Cleckley raised the point of an apparent juvenile nature of psychopathy but admitted that it didn't really answer the question of what was wrong with them.
 
The main question:

how do you deal with a creature who is just as entitled to "happiness" as anyone else is, but whose idea of happiness is the suffering of others?

So I searched and found some interesting info. From Robert Hares website (highly recommend reading the full transcript from this programme:
The Equinox program:Mind of a Murderer [urlhttp://www.hare.org/links/equinox.html][/url]

Narrator:Current therapy programmes for psychopaths in prison are not proving very successful. Indeed, the extraordinary fact is that there is a higher incidence of reoffending among those who have received treatment than those who've not. Not only does the treatment not work; it seems to exacerbate the condition.

Narrator: The fact that attentions are turning to new methods of treatment when the cause of psychopathy is yet to be firmly pinpointed, suggests that its discovery may not be far away. When it happens. The question is whether we will be prepared to administer a treatment as radical as that which Adrian Rain predicts.

Adrian Rain: We're not too far away in the future when what we will be able to do is replace dysfunctional brain mechanisms with microchips. This sounds like science fiction, and clearly it's not here yet, but within the next 10 years we will have the first microchip brain implant.

And it raises an important moral and ethical question in society. Do we intervene with psychopathic offenders who we can't currently treat and change them completely, reshape them entirely, change their brains, make them a new person? Is it really right of society to go into the holy of holies, go into a person's brain, their essence and change the neural wiring and structure of their brain?

Now I think there are two ways of looking at that. At one level we can say: no, we must not change the cell, it's the one thing that's God-given, we mustn't interfere with that. Biological research, biological manipulations of people are out, we mustn't change the nature and essence of what is God-given. Another approach is to say: look, psychopaths are creating major problems in society and we have to do something about that no matter how radical it may be.

We have to do something about reducing the rate of crime, violence and murder in society. Psychopaths are exponentially responsible for the horrific things that happen to people, innocent people, in society. Treatment approaches have simply failed to alter psychopathic behaviour and we can't wait much longer.

Narrator: It's certainly true that until a concerted effort is made to eradicate psychopathy, one of the most dangerous forces of our times will continue to plague society. The solution must lie in effective treatment. If surgical intervention in the brain proves to be the best option, it will surely polarise public opinion but it is a decision we cannot put off. The cost of evasion is far too high.

Voice: There will always be moral difficulties in deciding whether to treat criminals or not and that is really an issue for society as a whole and politicians and people who have expertise in ethics and so forth. I think the scientists have to provide the evidence, which other people can then use.

How far are we willing to go to protect society on the whole?
Found this on psychopaths in the workplace:
http://careereq.com/articles/career-management/workplace-psychopaths-how-to-deal-with-them/ By Dr. Alicia Karwat
So, how to deal with workplace psychopaths?

Some suggest to document every incident and take it to someone higher than your boss, but to be prepared for consequences such as being managed out or forced out with redundancy. However, based on experiences of others, I would advise to get out of the situation as quickly as you can before it gets out of control. Apply for another job either within the organisation or outside.

I had a discussion recently about workplace psychopaths with an HR manager from a large corporation in Europe. He said that workplace psychopaths do not have emotional intelligence. However, many of them could be utilised in a very effective way. In his organisation, once workplace psychopath character traits are spotted in an individual, he/she is not placed in a leadership position to manage a regular team. He/she is assigned to work and lead on a project basis.

Because of their drive, intelligence, ambition to achieve and ability to get things done, the workplace psychopaths can be very effective in strategic and high impact projects. The people on these projects do not stay usually long enough to become victims of the workplace psychopath’s tactics. Most importantly, the workplace psychopaths want to achieve within very tight deadlines, therefore do not have much incentive to victimise people who work with them. Even more, many people said that they learned a lot from them. The danger is that some might adopt some of the destructive behaviours, believing that that will ensure progress within the organisation.

Seems logical for this type of situation. But I wanted to see a moral perspective and searched futher.

So, finding this http://www.thedailyphilosopher.org/daily/000015.php

Excerpt: Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov and Notes From The Underground
Ivan speaking to his brother Alyosha, in The Brothers Karamazov:
Tell me straight out, I call on you—answer me: imagine that you yourself are building the edifice of human destiny with the object of making people happy in the finale, of giving them peace and rest at last, but for that you must inevitably and unavoidably torture just one tiny creature, [one child], and raise your edifice on the foundation of her unrequited tears—would you agree to be the architect on such conditions?. . . And can you admit the idea that the people for whom you are building would agree to accept their happiness on the unjustified blood of a tortured child, and having accepted it, to remain forever happy?

The Underground Man speaking to Lisa, in Notes From The Underground:
The thing I must have at any cost is peace of mind. To get that peace of mind, to make sure that no one worried me, I’d sell the whole world for a farthing. Is the world to go to rack and ruin or am I to have my cup of tea? Well, so far as I’m concerned, blow the world so long as I can have my cup of tea.
Response:
The novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky draws two impossible scenarios that together highlight the everyday reality of the potential conflicts between one's own happiness and the happiness of others. First imagine a world that is a utopia except that it is built upon the suffering of a single child. Then imagine a person who is willing to sacrifice the rest of the world in order to secure his own well-being. The question, one we face on a daily basis whether we contemplate it or not, is how we experience and value our own happiness in relation to the happiness of others.

Dostoevsky indicates, through the tone of these passages, that any person willing to sacrifice others for his own benefit must be in the wrong--be it everyone in the world sacrificing one person, or one person sacrificing everyone else in the world. But more importantly, Dostoevsky implies that something must be wrong with any person who could accept such a sacrifice—it’s not so much a matter of moral judgment against the people who could accept that a child be tortured for their sake, or against the Underground Man for choosing his own peace of mind over the welfare of the rest of the world. Dostoevsky clearly disapproves of these acts, but the novels from which these passages are taken invite us to pity these people and to try to understand how they came to be so cruel, and therein lies Dostoevsky’s deeper meaning. How, indeed, could anyone “accept their happiness on the unjustified blood of a tortured child” and how could the Underground Man stomach his cup of tea bought at such a dear price?

A critical element that would make this cruelty possible for some people but impossible for others is whether one could actually be happy under such circumstances. As the character Ivan wonders, having accepted such a sacrifice, how could anyone “remain forever happy?” In order to enjoy the benefits, one would have to block out, or somehow defuse, the knowledge of the suffering child--her tears must be "unrequited." For if one were not numb to it, the knowledge of that suffering would interfere with one's own happiness. A person who could not help but feel the suffering of others as real and significant would never accept such stark sacrifices for his own happiness--in fact would not be able to be happy anyway, under such conditions. For a person who feels the suffering of others as at least partly his own suffering, there could be no simple conflict between his own happiness and the happiness of others.

But whether one condones it or not, the fact is that many of us have benefited in some significant way from the unwilling sacrifices of others. Consider, for example, how a society that became wealthy through exploitations such as slavery or the plunder of war would pass on untold advantages to its descendants. These advantages include not only material wealth, but also less tangible goods such as education, or even psychological benefits such as self-confidence. Or consider a man or woman who is pressured by their spouse or parents into giving up their dream job in order to be able to support the family at a higher standard of living. From individual, personal acts of selfishness to political injustices on a social scale, we may be entangled in some way or other with unfairly gained rewards. Though these benefits may not have been sought by us, and we may have had no direct role in the sacrifices that brought them about, still it seems incumbent on us to consider Dostoevsky’s poignant question—how much should we feel the pain of others, particularly those whose suffering somehow became our advantage?

Could not sacrifice another person for my own happiness. Nor clean the world of all that "I" believe is wrong with it just for my own happiness.
Most of us I believe want to do the right thing for any form of psychopathy or other pathological issues. Being clear with the knowledge of who we are dealing with using Robert Hares "test" determining the type of actions a psychopath has taken, some can be intergrated into a functioning position in "creating our new world", while others must be seperated from mainstream society.

Not sure how I feel about microchips in peoples brains. Is this an aspect of STO? One would have to ask for the chip to be placed in his/her brain for it to be truly STO otherwise is it serving the self (society as a whole)? Psychopaths would undoubtedly refuse to do such a thing cause they do not believe that they have a problem. How many atrocities have been done in history under the guise of for "the good of all?" Would we have the capability in our new world?

One more reference point and I am done for now:
http://www.aftermath-surviving-psychopathy.org/
Will be surfing through this website further to look for some more clues.
 
So far, I think Smaragde's solution is the best: education and exclusion/control by refusing the manipulations of the psychopath and making it possible that they could be bred out of existence. Of course, that doesn't mean that a new batch won't come along, mutating out of the human gene pool. And how to really breed them out of existence by refusal to mate with them if their genes are scattered all through the human population?

Very tricky issue.

Possible combined solution:

1) Put the violent ones in a high security facility for the rest of their lives. Doesn't seem to be any other solution that is humane.
2) Non-violent, but emotionally destructive: if they can do jobs that their natures' support, fine, but only with everyone knowing their nature and constantly networking so that they can't create problems.
3) I can't see manipulating their brains electronically - sets a bad precedent - and they really aren't to blame for being born the way they are, so no need to take vengeance on them.
4) All of them probably ought to be "neutered." One could imagine that if they DID have what they don't have genetically - conscience - they would opt to not pass on their genes, so helping them by lending them some conscience isn't such a bad idea, IMO.

Any other ideas?
 
Laura said:
Possible combined solution:

1) Put the violent ones in a high security facility for the rest of their lives. Doesn't seem to be any other solution that is humane.
2) Non-violent, but emotionally destructive: if they can do jobs that their natures' support, fine, but only with everyone knowing their nature and constantly networking so that they can't create problems.
3) I can't see manipulating their brains electronically - sets a bad precedent - and they really aren't to blame for being born the way they are, so no need to take vengeance on them.
4) All of them probably ought to be "neutered." One could imagine that if they DID have what they don't have genetically - conscience - they would opt to not pass on their genes, so helping them by lending them some conscience isn't such a bad idea, IMO.

Any other ideas?

That sounds to me like the best solution. I couldn't think of anything that covers all the bases as well as the above. I think their would be some opposition to the neutering concept by non-psychopaths, due to projection of their own inner states onto others. That's where education on pathology comes in. People will have to be totally educated on what is truly going on in psychopaths' minds and their destructiveness.
 
Laura said:
4) All of them probably ought to be "neutered." One could imagine that if they DID have what they don't have genetically - conscience - they would opt to not pass on their genes, so helping them by lending them some conscience isn't such a bad idea, IMO.

This one, i found very fascinating idea, and it got me thinking along the lines of how fertile ground for psychopaths to fully manifest themselves the society we now live in is. And wondering how would it be if the society was the exact opposite.

Let's hypothesize that we create this community wherein everyone is as truthful, conscience-bound as possible, driven by the rules and values of universal morality, no one steals, cheats, manipulates, kills, tries to harm the others. All work as a network, collaborate and help each other, all have their place, and if minor disturbances are experienced, they are dealt with mirroring and networking again. And in this society, a child is born, who is psychopathic. Of course, noone knows. And the child grows up in said society. From all we know, it is probable that this child will know that s/he is different from the rest. But would s/he know that s/he enjoys when others suffer? And if s/he somehow knows, would s/he grow up to express it in said society? Would such society be able to condition the child to grow up following their moral values and act accordingly?
 
Heimdallr said:
That sounds to me like the best solution. I couldn't think of anything that covers all the bases as well as the above. I think their would be some opposition to the neutering concept by non-psychopaths, due to projection of their own inner states onto others. That's where education on pathology comes in. People will have to be totally educated on what is truly going on in psychopaths' minds and their destructiveness.

The thing is, there are actually a lot of people who are not psychopathological who ought to give up ideas of reproducing at all, particularly if they carry genes for certain defects that cause suffering. The only exceptions I can think of is if those genetics also often come with other heightened abilities that are valuable to society. Additionally, populations ought to be controlled, preferably by the personal choice of the individuals who make up the group and not imposed from "above." A person ought to look at themselves and their partner realistically, have good knowledge of their genetics, good counseling, consider their society, and make intelligent decisions about whether or not to have a child. Remember, it was the Fascist god who said "be fruitful and multiply..." and he was talking to his psychopathic followers. They have only been interested in producing more cannon fodder.
 
Laura said:
Heimdallr said:
That sounds to me like the best solution. I couldn't think of anything that covers all the bases as well as the above. I think their would be some opposition to the neutering concept by non-psychopaths, due to projection of their own inner states onto others. That's where education on pathology comes in. People will have to be totally educated on what is truly going on in psychopaths' minds and their destructiveness.

Additionally, populations ought to be controlled, preferably by the personal choice of the individuals who make up the group and not imposed from "above." A person ought to look at themselves and their partner realistically, have good knowledge of their genetics, good counseling, consider their society, and make intelligent decisions about whether or not to have a child. Remember, it was the Fascist god who said "be fruitful and multiply..." and he was talking to his psychopathic followers. They have only been interested in producing more cannon fodder.
This word "controlled" gives me the shivers. I wouldn't want to live in a "new world" where anything is controlled!
The individual is sovereign. The group serves as mirror and "school". Being part of the group is choice and exclusion is also an individual choice. i. e. living the life of a hermit. I see too much structuring in these messages. Should we not trust in inner guidance? In nature a plant knows how to grow. Who decides? We have the problem of authority again with all it's possible deviations.
Many of the above suggestions are only acceptable as very temporary crutches. The choice to defend one's own destiny should always be a priority. Of course I could be missing the point.
 
Leo40 said:
Laura said:
Additionally, populations ought to be controlled, preferably by the personal choice of the individuals who make up the group and not imposed from "above." A person ought to look at themselves and their partner realistically, have good knowledge of their genetics, good counseling, consider their society, and make intelligent decisions about whether or not to have a child. Remember, it was the Fascist god who said "be fruitful and multiply..." and he was talking to his psychopathic followers. They have only been interested in producing more cannon fodder.
This word "controlled" gives me the shivers.

"Population control" is a common phrase. As it is, there are too many people on this planet. That's a simple fact. To maintain a healthy population it must be "controlled" just as a size of community must be "controlled". You're projecting your own false sense of freedom here. It's amazing how people are so offended by having to follow rules for the benefit of everyone else, and yet take no offense to the fact that they are already completely controlled in every thought, feeling, and action. And if you would read what Laura actually wrote, she was saying that it would be ideal if everyone CHOSE to contribute to keeping the population at a safe, low limit. There are no guns to people's heads here forcing them to have abortions.

I wouldn't want to live in a "new world" where anything is controlled! The individual is sovereign.

Have you read Ouspensky?

The group serves as mirror and "school". Being part of the group is choice and exclusion is also an individual choice. i. e. living the life of a hermit. I see too much structuring in these messages. Should we not trust in inner guidance?

Why should anyone trust in inner guidance if inner guidance can be so miscalibrated? Trusting in inner guidance when one is asleep is called egotism.

In nature a plant knows how to grow. Who decides? We have the problem of authority again with all it's possible deviations.

And yet in humanity people don't know up from down, right from wrong, or truth from lies. They must LEARN. That requires GUIDANCE. In some cases, because people are essentially children (i.e. their emotional centers) they need RULES.

Many of the above suggestions are only acceptable as very temporary crutches. The choice to defend one's own destiny should always be a priority. Of course I could be missing the point.

And what if the destiny of another is to torture you, or do the same to your family? If we want to fulfill our own destiny, that means controlling our environment: detoxing our mind, body, and spirit. This can only be done in a healthy environment, e.g. in small communities and with a small global population. No one here is advocating violent population reduction, merely that people should be aware of themselves and the fact that, most likely, they're not parent material and there ARE too many people on this planet.
 
------Sorry for incoherency, the post may be a waste of your time, but i did want to contribute maybe selfishly.
-------Also don't correct my ideas... I can probably find answers reading this thread myself which I haven't done. This post is inconsiderate because I really have not read much of what this thread is about, but I already wrote my post, so i will post it. :/


About psychopathy and how to deal with it:

I read a few of the lasts posts. I don't have any things to quote or any points to make at the moment. I just want to think this through and say my thoughts.

containing or controlling organic portals is not the issue correct? They are a natural part of the world, it is the defective ones, the ones who exhibit psychopathy that we want to eliminate. But WHY are they defective?? STS genetic altering waves (do these have a name?)

Being a defective OP has to do with genetics so I believe there could be a genetic-modifying solution?

also the influence of 4D STS onto the organic portals is a problem? So, as a community someway to block this influence.

It is tough for me to imagine a 3D STO-aligned population on earth in our past singling out or identifying the psychopathic individuals. It seems like a never ending process to control the breeding of individuals. like trying to achieve perfection that is impossible.

If psychopathy must be 'singled-out' and can be done effectively I would think that rather then containing a psychopathic person in a high security place, murder would be a better option. ofcourse pain-free, thats why I suggest. imprisonment seems bad for society; it creates negative emotions... There are degrees of emotion, I would think most psychopaths have some emotions, sadness etc. EVEN IF there are fake/copied feelings because of being OP's

My last comment I would like how OP's can be detected if anyone suggests they can be. right now on earth probably very few people have this ability, and it wouldn't seem right that a few elite condemn a person... Even mutated OP's hide well in our society currently I would think.

genetically can you tell if psychopathic? that might be an answer.
 
Hi Leo40,

Leo40 said:
The individual is sovereign. The group serves as mirror and "school".
What about the group as your family, as a family growing, learning and taking care of each other, where each individual unite the group because that's its freely decision.

The question is, Do you realy want to form part of this family? Are you ready to stop thinking in yourself only, and start to see your own evolution united to the evolution of the group? Are you ready to give instead of just taking?


Leo40 said:
Being part of the group is choice and exclusion is also an individual choice. i. e. living the life of a hermit.
And who is saying the contrary? You decide, it's your choice.

Leo40 said:
I see too much structuring in these messages. Should we not trust in inner guidance?
I agree with AI here "Trusting in inner guidance when one is asleep is called egotism",

Leo40 said:
In nature a plant knows how to grow. Who decides?
Yes, and 2nd density beings are consumed by third density beings, even if they don't "know how" they are experiencing it.
The fact that you accept nature and the beauty of each density in creation as it is, is not in conflict with acknowledge the limitations of each stage of evolution, or do you want to experience 2nd density again? Would you change your currently awareness by the awareness of a second density being?.

Leo40 said:
We have the problem of authority again with all it's possible deviations.
We don't have a problem Leo40, it is you who is reacting, you are the one seeing authority and supresion, and what is even more surprising is that we are talking of rules and solutions for pathology.., so what are you fearing?
 
[quote author=realitybugll]-----Sorry for incoherency, the post may be a waste of your time, but i did want to contribute maybe selfishly.
-------Also don't correct my ideas... I can probably find answers reading this thread myself which I haven't done. This post is inconsiderate because I really have not read much of what this thread is about, [/quote]

Why then should we read your post? I am assuming you are aware of the forum on which you are posting.

but I already wrote my post, so i will post it.

Sorry, this doesn't fly.

Why not just express your ideas? What have you to lose by some critical responses?
 
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