Creating a New World

[cindyj]

I have been following this thread with great interest-- it has been hard to keep up! So many interesting observations and ideas :)

For inspiration, here is one example of community:

_http://www.brithdirmawr.co.uk/
Brithdir Mawr Community - A community of people living and working together in a sustainable way

In thinking about how this new society might choose to govern itself, I was also checking back through some older postings for any mention of Celtic Law, or Brehan Law, as it has also been called, and noticed in Laura's posting from August '08-- "...And I am proposing to bring back practices that were part of a great culture." This may be taken out of context, as she is really formulating a defense around the use of the Ouji board, but perhaps it also presents a clue for us.

It seems worthwhile for our community of 200 to have some knowledge about what has worked in the past (such as in Celtic society). Having studied earlier societies' ways of governing, housing themselves, caring for the sick, plant gathering and food production/storage could all prove useful in providing guidance in such a scenario.

Ana also said it very well in her recent statement: "I think a community that seeks integration and freedom for the evolution of its individuals should also be totally conected to the enviroment, always look for a balanced use of natural resources and constantly observe the environment in which they live as a faithful guide of their own evolution."

All helpful considerations...

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Ok I need some hard evidence not only "forum talk"
When we can make this Community ? together
WHERE ? France ? Poland ? other EU country ?

We are running of out time ( in about 12-24 month ) we will lost internet connection.

FWIW I agree with Kris. I think you may be getting off track in this form of thinking.

Why do you say, "We are running of out time ( in about 12-24 month ) we will lost internet connection." with so much conviction? Do you know something we don't?

 

[sankara]

Sorry guys,
This is just to give the address where you can find the spirulina handbook written by Gil Planchon et Charito Fuentes.
It can be ordrered at this beautiful address:

UNI-VERS LA VIE
9 ch; Notre Dame du Val d'Amour
09 300 Belesta

It is definitely the best handbook for whoever is seeking to produce homegrown spirulina. The cost is 20 Euros.
Respect

 

[Ollie]

Laura originally posed the question: Can society be structured like a family? Like macroscopic human body?

Then, in a later post, to consider what we must face in defending ourselves from pathology (and gave a list of areas to consider and include in a framework).

I came across the following quote in Women Who Run With the Wolves, pp299-300:

When a river is tainted, everything begins to die off because, as we know from environmental biology, every life form is dependent on every other life form. If, in an actual river, the sedge at water’s edge turns brown starving from oxygen, then the pollens can find nothing vibrant enough to fertilize, water plantain falls over leaving no cribs among its roots for water lilies, willows will not grow catkins, newts find no mates, and fireflies will not hatch. Therefore the fish will not jump, birds will not dive down, and the wolves and other creatures that come to refresh themselves move on or else die from drinking bad water or from eating prey that has eaten the dying plants near the water.

This, ‘every life form is dependent on every other life form.’ got me thinking about the question: how/could the areas in the framework be organised in such a way that each area of the framework is mutually dependent on the rest of the areas Laura proposed, ie, one fed into the other for activation and sustenance, fully interlinked, as in nature (above quote) so in the macroscopic (human) (societal) body.

That’s as far as I’ve got in my thinking, on how it could work, posing the question – just an idea.

 

[Alana]

Trevrizent, your post reminded me of this:

While much psychology emphasizes the familial causes of angst in humans, the cultural component carries as much weight, for culture is the family of the family. If the family of the family has various sicknesses, then all families within that culture will have to struggle with the same malaises. In my heritage, there is a saying "cultura cura", culture cures. If the culture is a healer, the families learn how to heal; they will struggle less, be more reparative, far less wounding, far more graceful and loving. In a culture where the predator rules, all new life needing to be born, all old life needing to be gone, is unable to move and the soul-lives of its citizenry are paralyzed with both fear and spiritual famine. (p. 70)

By creating a culture that holds, sustains and cures the families within, then, it seems to me, that the individuals within the families will be able to find their place/role in the community system and be able to offer their services to the rest, while at the same time accept the services of others, thus creating a balanced energetic environment of give-and-take. Like the environment within a healthy human body mentioned previously by others, where the majority works towards the growth and sustenance of the body, but also keeping an eye on the trouble-maker cells and creatures not to take matters in their own little deviant hands.

 

[ana]

By creating a culture that holds, sustains and cures the families within, then, it seems to me, that the individuals within the families will be able to find their place/role in the community system and be able to offer their services to the rest, while at the same time accept the services of others, thus creating a balanced energetic environment of give-and-take. Like the environment within a healthy human body mentioned previously by others, where the majority works towards the growth and sustenance of the body, but also keeping an eye on the trouble-maker cells and creatures not to take matters in their own little deviant hands.

I love it, Thank you Smaragde

 

[Ollie]

Thank you Smaragde for the quote, I did recall reading it earlier, but could not find its location. Putting the two quotes together with your comments amplifies what I was wanting to get across, that the work of one person, or area of the framework, interacts from/into another area, or person.

 

[Oxajil]

If a society has developed a group awareness that psychopaths can harm and 'destroy' a society, make it collapse, then what can they do with the psychopaths once they have been discovered? Is it an STO act to lock them up? I read this in the Wave (bolded by me):

In fact, the idea that "evil/darkness" is a rebellion, a fault, a thing to be done away with, is the "twist" in all the teachings of history that have laid the groundwork for domination and absorption by the forces of Service to Self. In terms of monotheism, this idea of "saving the world" has manifested the fruits of the many slaughters that have been instituted in the name of Unity, and Love. Because of this perceived need to "fix" or "change" or "transform" other people or situations, those whose inner inclination is actually STO are induced to damp their own STO frequency. If, in the act of giving or sending love, or any act whatsoever you deny the Free Will of another, you are "damping" your STO FRV. And remember, we are not talking about Free Will in the simplistic terms of being able to "do as one chooses" without restriction." So we aren't talking about not putting criminals in jail for breaking the law! In fact, putting a criminal in jail so that he can fully enter into his freely chosen lesson can be PURE STO! It's the old "don't do the crime if you can't do the time" cliche. By doing the crime, the individual has CHOSEN the consequences at some level.

Or is this more about 'souled' individuals (criminals)?

 

[Bluestar]

From Principles of The Fellowship of the Cosmic Mind:

5.7. On the Exclusion of Psychopathy
We recognize that psychopaths and other disordered individuals, who embody the Forces of Destruction, must be excluded from our social milieu. We are in agreement with the various experts like Andrew Lobaczewski, Kazimierz Dabrowski, Hervey Cleckley, Robert Hare, Sandra Brown, Martha Stout, Anna Salter, and others, that psychopaths have a harmful, toxic effect on the lives of others (see Sources). As such, following the Law of Exclusion (6.1. On the Law of Exclusion) and our alignment with the Forces of Creation (see 2.5. On Cosmic Conflict), we recognize that in the larger social sphere, psychopaths must be banned from access to any and all positions of authority. Just as a blind man cannot be accepted for a job requiring sight, a psychopath cannot be accepted in a position that requires social responsibility and consideration. And just as a fox is prevented from entering a hen-house, psychopaths must be barred from any position offering power and influence over other human beings. As members of the Fellowship of Cosmic Mind, we must exert efforts to minimize social interactions with individuals embodying the Forces of Destruction. Within our own PaleoChristian institutions, psychopaths and other disordered individuals are barred access entirely and expelled upon discovery in order to maintain the psychic and psychological hygiene of others, and to protect them from predation and emotional manipulation. This responsibility for the protection of group members falls upon the leadership of each group. Since we have clearly stated our position regarding Free Will and non-violence, this exclusion in no way implies destruction, but rather that extensive research needs to be conducted in order to understand and contain the influence of psychopathology.

And from session 970503

A: Not correct concept. You do not need to "act against them," you need to act in favor of your destiny.

So I believe we have to protect society from psychopaths, but that doesn't mean to throw them all into a dungeon and only feed them bread & water. Or to utilize "eye for an eye" like you murder someone then it's the death penalty for them. On the contrary, by providing a place for true assistance, protection from society & themselves in a safe environment. Psychological therapy, productive work to aid in the overall growth of society, and excluding punishment as a means of control. As explained in the quote from the Wave.

Quote from: The Wave

In fact, putting a criminal in jail so that he can fully enter into his freely chosen lesson can be PURE STO! It's the old "don't do the crime if you can't do the time" cliche. By doing the crime, the individual has CHOSEN the consequences at some level.

Also by not enabling free rides for criminals or psychopaths. They must repay society by doing tasks & such limited to each individuals skills. Supporting themselves the basic needs of food, shelter & clothing. But limited to the crime or injustice. Growing food, making clothing, honest work so as to not further "tax" society as a whole, osit.

 

[Oxajil]

Thanks Bluestar!

Also by not enabling free rides for criminals or psychopaths. They must repay society by doing tasks & such limited to each individuals skills. Supporting themselves the basic needs of food, shelter & clothing. But limited to the crime or injustice. Growing food, making clothing, honest work so as to not further "tax" society as a whole, osit.

I see, I just have that feeling that they will gain 'strength' again by lying and manipulating those who 'have a weak heart' and might feel for them, but I think a strong network would notice that.
It sounds good if they do such work (growing food etc.) for themselves.

It was just something I was wondering, thanks for the input.

 

[Bluestar]

I see, I just have that feeling that they will gain 'strength' again by lying and manipulating those who 'have a weak heart' and might feel for them, but I think a strong network would notice that.

Contemplating this concern, I'm thinking that maybe psychopaths can not change. They do not know how, or they don't have it within them. Therefore, they may not be able to rejoin society at large. Petty criminals may have potential to rejoin society, because they may not be psychopathic. There has to be some form of delination, an outline of characteristics, psychology & methods of handling such cases on individual bases. Because I don't think that we can just lump all types of psychopaths or criminals or psychologically impaired people into one system like we presently do in mainstream.

In the states we have several names for the penal system. Depends on which state your in or if it is a federal crime.
1-corrections complex or institution
2-jails or prison camps
3-rehabilitation institutions
4-detention centers
5-Penitentiaries
6-medical centers
And then they are further broken down by security, these are federal examples:

Maximum and High Security inmates are sent to U.S. Penitentiaries (USP).
Medium and Low Security inmates are sent to Federal Correctional Institutions (FCI).
Minimum Security inmates are sent to Federal Prison Camps (FPC).
Inmates requiring special medical or psychiatric care are sent to Federal Medical Centers (FMC)

So my point is that though the penal system has names as such, they are basically the same system of "punishment" Though I do know that help is available, it is just what kind of help are prisoners given. Most local jails are just a breeding ground for a lesser criminal to learn to be a better criminal. And this is proved by the number of repeat crimes in this country. This is but one example of one of the U.S. cities in California and how their crime rate has risen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland,_California#Crime

I am not a psychologist, nor a doctor, but from my perspective this task of dealing with psychopaths & crime is a huge undertaking. Just know that it is a system that needs fixing. If it can come from a non-ponerological perspective maybe it would work somehow? Like I stated before making the criminal pay back society and have to support themselves with working. This might make someone think twice about committing a crime.

 

[Nienna]

I am not a psychologist, nor a doctor, but from my perspective this task of dealing with psychopaths & crime is a huge undertaking. Just know that it is a system that needs fixing. If it can come from a non-ponerological perspective maybe it would work somehow? Like I stated before making the criminal pay back society and have to support themselves with working. This might make someone think twice about committing a crime.

That might be the case with non-psychopathic criminals, but from my understanding of psychopathy, psychopaths do not care about consequences. Whether it be because they don't care, have no fear of them or it just plain doesn't compute for them. So telling them that they will have to pay back society and have to support themselves will more than likely not work with them. They would find a way around it.

I don't know what the answer would be other than to keep them out of the society or locked up forever. I seem to recall that some aboriginal groups would kick the person who was pathological out of the group entirely and that person would have to fend for him/herself. They would be shunned and ignored and not let back into that group of people.

As I said, this is just something I recall reading years ago so take it for what it's worth.

This issue is a bit of a sticky wicket, at least for me.

 

[Laura]

The problem with psychopaths and therapy is that it has been demonstrated over and over again that they use therapy to learn how to better con people. Those who participate in therapy actually have a higher recidivism rate than those who don't.

 

[Bluestar]

From Nienna Eluch

So telling them that they will have to pay back society and have to support themselves will more than likely not work with them. They would find a way around it.

Yes. Imagine though that the facility that is in charge of handling these issues is knowledgeable about psychopaths and that they can't be fooled with the antics of psychopaths. Mandatory work programs within the system, not outside in society.

Also a form of excommunication I do not think would work, cause it would give the opportunity for retribution or reformulating any psychopathic behavior. And yes after reading The Masks of Sanity, it was so clear how psychopaths repeat their actions. They seem to be unable to reform. How are they handled then?

1994 brought us a movie called "No Escape" with Ray Liota. The premise was an island where criminals were taken and they had to live out their lives there. The island had two communities the people that lived peacefully together and those psychopaths that wanted to control everything. It was very Hollywood, but it got me thinking about how to handle this all. Was it moral to put these people on the island? It did take them away from society, but there was no escaping or reforming, once there you were there till you died. Now of course Ray Liota's the protagonist and eventually helps to disband the psychopaths. And the warden is definitely wrapped in a ponerologic system. It was not a very good movie, and had some violent scenes but like I said it got me thinking.

Is this the answer to the problem? It could be if it was monitored and came from a non-ponerological system. And what happens when there is a divide between psychopaths & the other criminals on the island and have a war between themselves, does the system then seperate even further? This is a tough topic.

 

[Laura]

I think the main thing to think about would be making absolutely certain that the individual in question is a psychopath - whether the violent or the ambulatory type - which would mean not only is there no hope for change, but such an individual preys on others one way or another.

The apparent "need to dominate" of the psychopath is really just hunger for power over others which is a means to an end: feeding. Keep in mind that dominating doesn't have to be overt. Remember George Simon's "In Sheep's Clothing. " Also, notice in Martha Stout's book how she talks about some psychopaths who dominate covertly. The seek power over others but, because they have learned that overt domination doesn't work for them (for whatever reason), they have a different strategy. It's still all about dominance, GETTING power or control over others. And if they have to act meek and pathetic to do it, it's all the same to them.

So it is still reward. They dominate to GET something. It's a hunger that needs to be filled not just dominating for the sake of dominating and they will always be "hungry" for the suffering of others. That IS what gives them happiness and satisfaction.

Psychopaths (and other related pathological types) actually enjoy the suffering of others. Just as seeing other people happy makes normal people happy for them, these creatures get their pleasure from seeing others suffer. It's not a "drive" that doesn't have a "stoplight," it's a "reward" thing.

Bullies may enjoy seeing others in pain: Brain scans show disruption in natural empathetic response
http://news.uchicago.edu/news.php?asset_id=1477
November 7, 2008

Unusually aggressive youth may actually enjoy inflicting pain on others, research using brain scans at the University of Chicago shows.

Scans of the aggressive youth's brains showed that an area that is associated with rewards was highlighted when the youth watched a video clip of someone inflicting pain on another person. Youth without the unusually aggressive behavior did not have that response, the study showed.

"This is the first time that fMRI scans have been used to study situations that could otherwise provoke empathy," said Jean Decety, Professor in Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Chicago. "This work will help us better understand ways to work with juveniles inclined to aggression and violence."

Decety is an internationally recognized expert on empathy and social neuroscience. The new research shows that some aggressive youths' natural empathetic impulse may be disrupted in ways that increase aggression.

The results are reported in the paper "Atypical Empathetic Responses in Adolescents with Aggressive Conduct Disorder: A functional MRI Investigation" in the current issue of the journal Biological Psychology. Benjamin Lahey, the Irving B. Harris Professor of Epidemiology and Psychiatry at the University, co-authored the paper, along with University students Kalina Michalska and Yuko Akitsuki. The National Science Foundation supported the work.

In the study, researchers compared eight 16- to 18-year-old boys with aggressive conduct disorder to a control group of adolescent boys with no unusual signs of aggression. The boys with the conduct disorder had exhibited disruptive behavior such as starting a fight, using a weapon and stealing after confronting a victim.

The youth were tested with fMRI while looking at video clips in which people endured pain accidentally, such as when a heavy bowl was dropped on their hands, and intentionally, such as when a person stepped on another's foot.

"The aggressive youth activated the neural circuits underpinning pain processing to the same extent, and in some cases, even more so than the control participants without conduct disorder," Decety said.

"Aggressive adolescents showed a specific and very strong activation of the amygdala and ventral striatum (an area that responds to feeling rewarded) when watching pain inflicted on others, which suggested that they enjoyed watching pain," he said.

Unlike the control group, the youth with conduct disorder did not activate the area of the brain involved in self-regulation (the medial prefrontal cortex and the temporoparietal junction).

The control group acted similarly to youth in a study released earlier this year, in which Decety and his colleagues used fMRI scans to show 7- to 12-year-olds are naturally empathetic toward people in pain.

The scans showed that when the children saw animations of someone hurt accidentally, the same portion of the brain that registered pain when they are hurt also was highlighted upon seeing someone else hurt. When they saw someone intentionally hurt, the portion of the brain associated with understanding social interaction and moral reasoning was highlighted.

The bottom line is this: how do you deal with a creature who is just as entitled to "happiness" as anyone else is, but whose idea of happiness is the suffering of others?