Depression As A Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth)

[Pierre]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Actually i find it difficult because I started again anticipating things

You can anticipate the fact that you'll sooner or later experience negative emotions and be prepared to refine / transfer it. IMO it's a loss of time to try to anticipate all the specific situation that will generate negative emotions.

and furthermore, I do not still realize what's the difference between negative emotions that are useful to express to receive feedback

If you express intellectually those emotions (words, analysis, thougts) then you mix up centers and break the virtous energetic circle. You have to identifiy the negative emotion (as soon as possible so it's not too overhelming) and refine it in the higher emotional center (consciousness of the negative emotion, high emotional center activation . Being centered, breathing can help)

to being able to give mirrors to othersand negative emotions to be kept where they originate to let the lower emotional center vibrates together with the higher emotional center.

You don't have to mirror anyone or anything . Just be who you are and focus on this energetic process. It doesn't mean you have to remain numb. You can interact through the controlled craziness mode, thus you don't mix up intellectual centers activities (what you may think and what you possibly say) and emotional centers activity.

It is a relatively long process so it's normal that in the beginning it doesn't always work. Step by step you should manage to make it more permanent even when facing strong negative emotions /stimuli.

I hope it can be helpful. Maybe Art can give some more details about those processes.

 

[Art]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I have added the next lines to the first post on this thread:

I have received expressions of appreciation because of this thread, and I thank each of them: I am very glad my participation has been of some use, and to think I might help to change something, warms my heart.

I would like to beg you all to include Laura on your expressions.

I want to take all those expressions and hand them all to Laura, the one who really deserves them all, and the one who gived all this, and so much more, to anyone interested on hearing what she has to say.

I thank you, Maam, for your generosity and for your guidance: Your spirit is a example for me, and for thousands of others, of what it means to be deeply, deeply human -and how to get our alive!

My gratitude for your efforts are my every day efforts to be a better man every day.

***

I have habit repeatedly telling my self let it GO... I am still not in habit of self observe

What do you mean when you say to your self "Let it GO"? It seems to me that, folowing this behavour, you loose the chance to observe both your self and the origin of the negative emotions. On the other hand, it is not about carrying with the negative emtoions and it's implications for ever. It is the Understanding, and not the "letting go", the which shed light on the inner world.

You cannot arrive to the habit of self-observation: Such a thing is not an habit. It is an effort. A conscious effort. It lasts as long as you are able to maintain self-concentration: 2 minutes, the most.

how long to keep observing this emotion to keep it to its location.

As long as its localization and understanding takes place. This should be happening without "questioning" the negative emotion as in "What is this? Where is this coming from?". Question it, but with your eyes, not with your mental voice: It is about to feel it.

If the emotion disappear does it means it is not a -ve emotion at all ?

Why would this be?

Since I didn't resolve the cause of it, I will remember it later and remaind my self of -ve emotion, the pain involved in it.

If you resolve the cause of it, cannot you remember it latter anyway?

When a negative emotion "disappears" (I understand you are trying to say here: "when it is over"), it leaves it's influence behind. This can last a few minutes, a few years... or a few lives! Unless...

Unless one can manage to transform it.

Manitoban: Another point I have noticed is that even the small things that used to frustrate me and annoy me don't anymore.

Art: What was it that you did, as for the things that used to frustrate you, don't frustrate you anymore? How did you stopped that effect?

Manitoban: I remember thinking "I'll be damned if I'm gonna get angry over (...) and feed those creeps." And I would stop getting angry right then and there. I wasn't observing myself or anything like that, I think I was in my own way just trying to "fight back". I didn't feel any sweetness, I wasn't doing the Work, all I was doing was staying calm. And keep in mind, at that time, I still thought I had good reason to be annoyed in these situations, I could only see that I wanted to deprive the STS crew of food. It was a new idea to me that I had a choice as to whether or not I got angry. But gradually I noticed that I didn't get angry at these situations anymore, and I wasn't even thinking about "fighting back," just the annoyance didn't arise.

Manitoban, we all thank you very much this your very detailed description of just what was it that you did to stop feeling angry or frustrated!

I loved the way you describe the process of what is going on inside you, moment after moment, for the benefit of all those of us who cannot understand just how to, quite simply, not getting angry.

Manitoban said: "I'll be damned if I am going to feed those creeps!" This corageous desittion was transmited to the world by the means of Manitoban's cathegorical desittion to stop feeding those creeps.

AND, Manitoban has bring to our attention a very very important factor: WE NEED A REAZON.

With a reazon, everything is more urgent, and the manouver becomes more easy, because it happens more directly.

Without a reazon, there is not a "where" to go: There is not a understanding of "The Work". There is no vision of how to "keep" the negative emotion on its place of origin.

And the reazons, the motive, comes from The Life.

I totally agree with FW here:

However I disagree that the little things are little! I think they are in fact mayor.

They appear to be smal things, yes. But the secrte is not on the "small things", but on learning to use anything negative as a steppjung stone. Once this learned, this manouver of the sould can be applied to anything, even the biggest pitty tyrans you can find.

I really appreciate your email Art!

What email?

The problem arise when the pressure over you is so hard that you begin to loose memory of it all, and if a big emotional burst occurs in this period you may loose it all.

You are describing the effects of a pitty tyran. The effects of a pitty tyran are operational on us because we offer a target -our Ego.

I do not still realize what's the difference between negative emotions that are useful to express to receive feedback, to being able to give mirrors to others, and negative emotions to be kept where they originate to let the lower emotional center vibrates together with the higher emotional center.

I don't understand. Meybe you can rephrace this? And mainly, what do you mean with giving mirrors to others?

 

[dantem]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I really appreciate your email Art!

What email?

I mean your post here on this thread

The problem arise when the pressure over you is so hard that you begin to loose memory of it all, and if a big emotional burst occurs in this period you may loose it all.

You are describing the effects of a pitty tyran. The effects of a pitty tyran are operational on us because we offer a target -our Ego.

Yes, absolutely Art. I've fallen in a petty tyrant's trap last year, again, and that's where I've lost memories and energy.

I do not still realize what's the difference between negative emotions that are useful to express to receive feedback, to being able to give mirrors to others, and negative emotions to be kept where they originate to let the lower emotional center vibrates together with the higher emotional center.

I don't understand. Meybe you can rephrace this? And mainly, what do you mean with giving mirrors to others?

Hi Art, I mean that somethimes we have to express negative emotions by telling others about what's wrong in a certain situation or whatever and that this mirror may be a shock for them, i.e. negative emotions at work and expressed, as a way to judge something or somebody's else actions. To point out that something is wrong may be shocking for the person that receive the mirror. So to give mirrors this time could be expressing negative emotions, and it's not "negative" at all in this case, is in fact an act of love towards others, like giving lessons, in this case, and of course receive answers as well in order to "fix back" your own bias, misjudgement, bad percetions ecc..

So I'm a bit confused just about the whole terminology here, nothing to do about the validity of the "stepping stone" article, please don't get me wrong.

So, any idea?

 

[dantem]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Actually i find it difficult because I started again anticipating things

You can anticipate the fact that you'll sooner or later experience negative emotions and be prepared to refine / transfer it. IMO it's a loss of time to try to anticipate all the specific situation that will generate negative emotions.

and furthermore, I do not still realize what's the difference between negative emotions that are useful to express to receive feedback

If you express intellectually those emotions (words, analysis, thougts) then you mix up centers and break the virtous energetic circle. You have to identifiy the negative emotion (as soon as possible so it's not too overhelming) and refine it in the higher emotional center (consciousness of the negative emotion, high emotional center activation . Being centered, breathing can help)

to being able to give mirrors to othersand negative emotions to be kept where they originate to let the lower emotional center vibrates together with the higher emotional center.

You don't have to mirror anyone or anything . Just be who you are and focus on this energetic process. It doesn't mean you have to remain numb. You can interact through the controlled craziness mode, thus you don't mix up intellectual centers activities (what you may think and what you possibly say) and emotional centers activity.


It is a relatively long process so it's normal that in the beginning it doesn't always work. Step by step you should manage to make it more permanent even when facing strong negative emotions /stimuli.

I hope it can be helpful. Maybe Art can give some more details about those processes.

Hi Axel, ok that's another form of anticipation too that I'm falling into, the mirror is to be given when you have something to say about a certain subject, and that's all, while observing and focus on this energetic process, as you said.

It's real that when one has got his own emotional center so badly upset for quite a number of months, the whole machine really goes in the wrong direction, gosh!

 

[Pierre]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

As stupid as it can seem what I've found useful along this way was to work on backbone alignment (through specific postures,exercices and attention). Though I lack tangible knowledge about this whole energetic process, I suspect that energy transfert between centers requires a effective enough channel : straigh / relax backbone.

Do you think there's a correlation between backbone and those energy transfert processes ?

Another question : when "refining" thoughts up to the high intellectual center I feel more the head chakra (sweet warm tension) it seems consistent with the location given by the Cs about high intellectual center. However, when I "refine" emotions the tension is stronger between the eyes. This is were should be located the fusion of high intellectual center and high emotional center. So I am a bit puzzled. Shouldn't the emotion refinment process end in the chest ? (where the Cs locate the high emotional center)

 

[manitoban]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

However I disagree that the little things are little! I think they are in fact mayor.

They appear to be smal things, yes. But the secrte is not on the "small things", but on learning to use anything negative as a steppjung stone. Once this learned, this manouver of the sould can be applied to anything, even the biggest pitty tyrans you can find.

You are both right, and I think you have helped me identify yet another program that I've got going on - the invalidation program - a program which tells me that what I am doing (re:the Work] isn't important and that I haven't really done much. Of course the little things are important ! - funny how I didn't see that until you two pointed it out.

Just to add to Art's comments to Laura - without all Laura's work we would still be asleep and there are no words that can fully express our gratitude and thanks for all that she has done.

 

[manitoban]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

As stupid as it can seem what I've found useful along this way was to work on backbone alignment (through specific postures,exercices and attention). Though I lack tangible knowledge about this whole energetic process, I suspect that energy transfert between centers requires a effective enough channel : straigh / relax backbone.

I don't know if this is relevent to what you are saying, but on the odd occasion where I have managed to keep the negative emotions down and have felt a kind of - well I'll call it the sweetness, I have noticed that I also feel a kind of glow (again hard to find the right words to explain here) - and this glow is at the base of the back of my neck - top of spine. Could this be related to the backbone alignment you speak of?

 

[seek10]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's \

I have added the next lines to the first post on this thread:

I have received expressions of appreciation because of this thread, and I thank each of them: I am very glad my participation has been of some use, and to think I might help to change something, warms my heart.

I would like to beg you all to include Laura on your expressions.

I want to take all those expressions and hand them all to Laura, the one who really deserves them all, and the one who gived all this, and so much more, to anyone interested on hearing what she has to say.

I thank you, Maam, for your generosity and for your guidance: Your spirit is a example for me, and for thousands of others, of what it means to be deeply, deeply human -and how to get our alive!

My gratitude for your efforts are my every day efforts to be a better man every day.

***

Laura deserve credit. I completely agree with you.

I have habit repeatedly telling my self let it GO... I am still not in habit of self observe

What do you mean when you say to your self "Let it GO"? It seems to me that, folowing this behavour, you loose the chance to observe both your self and the origin of the negative emotions. On the other hand, it is not about carrying with the negative emtoions and it's implications for ever. It is the Understanding, and not the "letting go", the which shed light on the inner world.

'Let it Go' is some sort of self suggestion. yes, I felt that I am loosing the oppurtunity to see the reason when I self suggest 'Let it Go' even though it relieves the pain.
Understanding is good enough ?. for example if person has a narcisitic 'fear' response to others dominant manipulative behaviour, he understands it as a narcistic , does the 'pain' and the other impacts of the negative emotion, go away immediately for ever ?.

You cannot arrive to the habit of self-observation: Such a thing is not an habit. It is an effort. A conscious effort. It lasts as long as you are able to maintain self-concentration: 2 minutes, the most.

I was using the word habit in the context of 'got used to do it repeatedly or practiced ' not as a unconscious automatic process.

how long to keep observing this emotion to keep it to its location.

As long as its localization and understanding takes place. This should be happening without "questioning" the negative emotion as in "What is this? Where is this coming from?". Question it, but with your eyes, not with your mental voice: It is about to feel it.

can you elobate on this 'with your eyes, not with your mental voice: It is about to feel it'. ?.

 

[allen]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I've been trying to observe negative emotion in myself. Not an easy process! The very act of observing seems to draw it right up into my head.

What I have noticed so far is that negative emotion seems to originate somewhere around the bottom of my ribcage. I can usually feel a warm sensation move up from there into my arms. A very strong emotion (like very intense anger) will go all the way to my finger tips and make my hands shake. That warm sensation sometimes also seems to kind of lodge in my throat.

Regarding your comment to pseigelgnt about feeling this emotion (Question it, but with your eyes, not with your mental voice: It is about to feel it.), I had an experience many years ago that might be in line with this.

I had experienced an intense depression due to the end of a relationship. I was so depressed that for a couple of weeks I couldn't sleep or eat. I could barely talk. There was simply no way for me to even thinking about this because my thought processes were even shutting down. The whole thing was truly horrific.

At last, when I thought I'd go nuts for the intensity of the depression, I sort of felt something "snap" toward the back of my brain. A euphoric sensation spread across my brain until all traces of depression were gone. For the next three days, I experienced everything more intensely and felt completely at peace and "in love with the world." Then I returned to "normal."

On the one hand, this was an amazing experience. It made the depression worth it ;^D. On the other hand, I wonder now if this was really anything positive or not? I wonder if what happened was something along the lines of what has been described here or if this was a super intense form of masking?

Any thoughts?

 

[Pierre]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I don't know if this is relevent to what you are saying, but on the odd occasion where I have managed to keep the negative emotions down and have felt a kind of - well I'll call it the sweetness, I have noticed that I also feel a kind of glow (again hard to find the right words to explain here) - and this glow is at the base of the back of my neck - top of spine. Could this be related to the backbone alignment you speak of?

When the backbone is still misaligned there might be some energy "licks", usually in the neck area. However those licks can also have a beneficial properties because it somehow heals the backbone "hard points".

What can also be useful is to keep the mouth shut during the process with the tip of the tong touching the front up teeth. It helps closing the circuit between two important meridians involved in this process : the governing vessel and the conception vessel.

 

[manitoban]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I don't know if this is relevent to what you are saying, but on the odd occasion where I have managed to keep the negative emotions down and have felt a kind of - well I'll call it the sweetness, I have noticed that I also feel a kind of glow (again hard to find the right words to explain here) - and this glow is at the base of the back of my neck - top of spine. Could this be related to the backbone alignment you speak of?

When the backbone is still misaligned there might be some energy "licks", usually in the neck area. However those licks can also have a beneficial properties because it somehow heals the backbone "hard points".

What can also be useful is to keep the mouth shut during the process with the tip of the tong touching the front up teeth. It helps closing the circuit between two important meridians involved in this process : the governing vessel and the conception vessel.

This is very interesting, I didn't know about these energy "licks"- but it does sound like it may be what I experienced. Next chance I get, I'll also try the method you describe to close the circuit between the meridians. Thanks!

 

[j0da]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Wow, so much happened here..it's not easy to post it, so I'd better do it now..

For a couple of days I was afraid of posting anything, often writting a couple of phrases only to delete them and back off. Constantly struggling with feelings of inferiority or barricades consisting of "a need to post wise post". Luckily, I've read some posts in other sections and stumbled upon Anart's remark about what this forum is about (among other things):

Also, try to remember to use this resource - when you are so inclined, keep contact here and report back, ask questions, vent or simply ponder.

So, I'm back on track and reporting, to hell with internal barriers and masks!

Many things said about depression occupied my mind for last week as I thougt about my own situation, about other forum members condition and various problems they face due to this negative feeling/emotion. Methods of using negative emotions were expained throughly and an interesting spinning technique was provided. Both of them will take some time to practice and master and I'm not in position of providing any feedback regarding them yet. But, meanwhile I focused my attention on what Fifth Way has cited and tried to implement such approach.

For easy reference, Fifth Way cited Laura:

The hard part[...]
is to recognize when you're in that state and figure out how to
separate from it enough to have a part of you become psychologically
functional again. You have to have a little bit of you somewhere that
can be objective, look at what you're going through, and realize that
depression needs to be just temporary and that you do, eventually,
have to move out of it.[...] I have joked that there are two of me --
the one that surfs the emotions and the one that watches, making sure
nothing terribly bad happens. The one that watches is the one that can
take an overview that can help me process out of depression.

I have put together all my strenght I had left and separated this "objective part of myself" and used Ark's "Eagle View" approach to evaluate my present situation. Putting illusions, wishfull thinking, dreaming and hopes aside I observed and noted my basic areas of involvement, their condition, chosen goals, their value and the possibilities of succes or dangers of failure.

I asked myself basically:

-What am I doing? What do I want to do?
-What goals, occupations and actions are harmful, redundant or favourable in regard to my learning and striving toward greater awarenes and STO orientation?

and then:

-What am I doing or planning to do today, in a week, in a year?
-What are my strenghts and weaknesses?
-What must I do in order to satisfy my basic survival needs of food, clothing and shelter? How much time I have to spend on earning money in order to cover these basic expenses?
-What can I do in order to have more time and strenght for study?
-What can I do in order to have excess money for books, travels and workshops?
-Which people I should associate with, which associations/communications should be strenghened and which ones deserve caution and/or minimising contact?

It may seem paradoxical, since such objective “Eagle View” can reveal some things which weren’t obvious or clear earlier, thus adding weight to depression. BUT, I myself, after initial feeling of being a complete “lowlife” dwelling in a crap appartment somwhere in Poland, barely earning a living, FINALLY knew where I am and what I have to do. Yes, I’m depressed, I have to struggle with myself everyday, but now I have at least clear idea what HAS TO BE DONE. And this awareness, unclouded view really helped me out. When I have lessened the confusion, I felt much better and saw a glimmering light of hope at the end of the tunnel. Not only that, I learned that I don’t know many important things, I’ve spotted additional areas of confusion and thanks to that new crucial questions arised, which I sense need to be asked now or in nearest future.

Not long ago I’ve been struggling and finally conquered another confusion (Sailing the storms of uncertainty http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2581) and today I feel I conquered another one. Both of them constitute duality of inner/outer life and only now I hope there will be balance between both of these areas. I’m sure I will fall down time and time again, but I’ll do my best to get up and be back here again.

During those uneasy days I wrote to my friend:

When I look around, I see different people. Most of them do nothing, but some of them DO accomplish worthy goals. Some of them shine among the humanity like candles in the darkness. I respect them, for I see them as ones that brought their own humanity to the glory which is due to every being in this universe. Of what a human can possibly be - they are. That in fact may be my goal!

And so, in this moment I’d like to express my deepest gratitude for mama Laura, Ark, SOTT team and forum members for being my “candles in the darkness”. Art – thank you for your guiding role in this thread, your modesty and beautiful poem you have cited for me. It’s great to have you people and to finally feel warmth in my heart after such a long period of coldness.

 

[Cyre2067]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I feel like I'm missing something. I feel like the universe is screaming something in my ears but i have headphones on and am staring at a really interesting movie. I can kinda tell im being screamed at, but I still can't hear what it's saying.

If i could turn the damn movie off and take off the headphones i could finally hear it, but metaphorically speaking i don't know how to do that.

I'm having trouble with this self-ob during negative states bit. I'll try it, think i'll have it, and then later realize i didn't, or forget what i did to get there in the first place. I haven't gotten "an inflow of joy" as of yet. I re-read this thread and the familiar understanding i had when i read it before is gone. I'll read some of my earlier posts professing understanding, and be unable to identify with the author.

Anyway, i just wanted to give an update, im not asking for a response, as all the info i require is available already. However, if anyone has an insight or thought that pops up, feel free to post it.
Thanks

 

[Fifth Way]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I guess we do develop a group consciousness of some sort as I, during the last couple of days, had it on my mind to revisit this thread and post new findings.

I'm having trouble with this self-ob during negative states bit. I'll try it, think i'll have it, and then later realize i didn't, or forget what i did to get there in the first place. I haven't gotten "an inflow of joy" as of yet.

First of all I think the point is to continue. But I can't say that I did feel the JOY part yet.

However, I want to share my experience for comparison and feedback sake.

I am getting more aware about the onset of the negative emotions. So instead of just getting angry I go more often now:
Oh! Here is another negative emotion happening right now.

And that - I think - is already observing.

But if that is one out of ten times or one out of a hundred - your guess is as good as mine.

Then I try to feel the physical sensations attached to the emotion which normally is some knotting-up in the abdominal area, which is where your lower emotional center is located that controls you at those occasions.
That I think I can feel almost always.

Sometimes I even feel some kind of tingling radiating through the body. But more ofteh I don't.

Then it gets more difficult as there are a variety of thinks that can happen. I guess it depends how deep the true source of the negative emotion can sit and hide within yourself.

a. The control program that was compromised quickly activates another control program that shoots my thoughts of into another direction and I do not continue the process.

b. Instead of just observing I want to analyze the sensations. I am trying to get to the source of the emotion and most times that results in a quick judgment against whatever person that brought on that emotion (that is basically another control program)

c. sometimes I can observe this happening and try to concentrate to come back just to the "feeling" part. And that works sometimes and sometimes not. And I get again distracted by another program.

d. sometimes I visualize with my eyes closed looking at me and my state from across the room while I consciously feel the emotion. At those times I managed a few times (maybe two, max three) that the knotted feeling in the abdominal area is residing and instead some warmth develops in the heart or chest area. From the "academic" knowledge that that is supposed to signify the heat of fusion of the magnetic centers I each time felt better. But to call it joy is maybe stretching it a little.

e. sometimes I also experienced spontaneous further (I would not call it ultimate) understanding where within me the neg. emotion came from. That I felt really good about . But again I cannot say it was joyful.

I am reading the little "The Work" book from the sott team. That relay explains how the Work we are trying to do - i.e. this self observation - is the hardest thing, as your own programs plus EVERYBODY around you tries constantly and tirelessly to prevent you from doing it. I am almost at this stubborn place now, where because of that I need to continue.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[manitoban]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Just to add my two cents here: Recently I had a big lapse where I completely forgot not only to self observe but also I actually forgot about the Matrix, the psychopaths - everything that I've learned about what's actually going on in the world.

I had some friends visiting me for three days, (most of my friends live in Europe so this was a bit unusual) anyway, I had thought it would be good to self observe when I was around them, instead, I woke up on the morning after they left realising that I had done Nothing! No self observing, no remembering - it was like I had never learned anything. I mean I wasn't self observing all the time by any means up to this point, but I did remember at least several times a day even if for only a few seconds or minutes. And I did think about the Matrix situation here every day. But for three whole days I was totally slumbering. It really shocked me when I awoke again after my friends left. How easy it is to forget even when you have been doing it daily for some months now. I also had to wonder if these friends were a factor in this, of course I was distracted by them, but still , to totally forget??

Anyway, I think Fifth Way has correctly summerised what happened to me and maybe for you too Brent.

this self observation - is the hardest thing, as your own programs plus EVERYBODY around you tries constantly and tirelessly to prevent you from doing it.