Depression As A Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth)

[manitoban]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I finally managed to remember to ask my supportive I's for help, so thought I would report my experiences. With the help of my sticker, I spoke to my I's just before I went to sleep, and I must say I felt really good about it, a real feeling of peace within. However, I woke up the next morning feeling a bit odd, and by lunchtime I was burning up with fever. My temperature was about 104F - so it was really high. I had to get my husband to come home from work to take care of my son as I just couldn't do it. Anyway, the strange part was, I had no other symptoms, no cold , no stuffed up nose, no earaches, no aches of any kind, just the fever. I ended up sleeping all that day and night and next day woke up feeling great and back to normal. I thought it was odd this happened when it did, although I may be jumping to conclusions here, and maybe I just happened to get some virus right about then.
I did have some success with reminders of neg emotions, as soon as I began to feel angry a few days later, I got a warning to observe right away. Of course, I was so gleeful that it had worked, my mind went off about that and the emotion drained away and I had nothing to Work with.. But I will keep trying.

Lynne, I tried to pay attention to where the emotion was - at first it did seem to be in the solar plexis area to me too, but then as I observed it seemed more in the adomen, but I'm not sure what exactly did happen and I lost it before I could really pay attention.

 

[Tigersoap]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I finally managed to remember to ask my supportive I's for help, so thought I would report my experiences. With the help of my sticker, I spoke to my I's just before I went to sleep, and I must say I felt really good about it, a real feeling of peace within. However, I woke up the next morning feeling a bit odd, and by lunchtime I was burning up with fever. My temperature was about 104F - so it was really high. I had to get my husband to come home from work to take care of my son as I just couldn't do it. Anyway, the strange part was, I had no other symptoms, no cold , no stuffed up nose, no earaches, no aches of any kind, just the fever...

I experience these sorts of "invisible cold" from time to times but not as severly as you experienced it.

It could be that your mental state triggers a strong reaction from your body, a sort of allergic reaction against a new "experience" OSIT

I have these strong but short illness symptoms when I let go after being quite tense for a while or because there is a new idea that I have a hard time to accept but that's me, it could be totally different for you.

 

[Nienna]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I think it would be a good idea to closely read Laura's post on this aspect of the Work:

I want to thank you Craig. After rereading this post from Laura I remembered something that happened to me that, I think, has to do with this thread. I didn't make the connection until I reread the post.

This happened quite a while ago and I'm sorry for the length, but I would like you to see the frame of mind I was in when this happened to me. Also I will be paraphrasing as I cannot remember what was exactly said.

After being on casschat for about a month, I was replying to a post made be another member. I told him that what he had posted was eloquently done. Very innocently I might add. Whereupon, someone else on the site told me that what I had posted "could be" seen as a manipulation, although not knowing me, it was just an assumption, but this person thought that I should take a look at my motives in this and see if this could be the case, and was sorry if this was not the case. I was crushed that someone would "accuse" me of being manipulative when this is something that I detest. Now notice that it was stated as "could be" and I saw it as "accusing" me of. I replied to this "attack", as I saw it, with inconsideration and sarcassism. Which these things I also do not like in other people.

After my reply, another member commented on why was I defending myself if I thought I was not guilty of what had been said to me? This person said that evidently some buttons had been pushed and there were definitely some programs running that I should deal with. I was totally devestated. I could not believe that these people were "accusing" me of these things when they didn't even know me. How dare they?

Let me explain that my supervisor (who is also my sister-in-law) was a very manipulative person. She has it down to an art. And everytime I witnessed these manipulations of hers, I would become very digusted and angry, and at times I even pointed it out to her. It made no difference to her.

So to be put in the same catagory as her was appalling to me. Now realize that nobody had "accused" me of anything, they were just trying to help me to see what was going on. I hadn't caught on yet, though.

For about 4 or 5 days, at least, I was thinking to myself how could these people accuse me of these things? How could they even insinuate that I was like this? That I was a monster, or a robot who had been programmed. Then, I would think that these people are not trying to hurt me, they are trying to make me see something. But, what? Then, I would go back into the self-pity mode, who are they to hurt me this way? And then back to trying to understand what they were trying to tell me. This went on from the time I got up in the morning until I finally fell asleep at night, as I said for, at least, 4 or 5 days. I was nauseated. The whole think made me sick. And, of course, I did this in between doing my work at my job and all of the things that we all do at home. This was before I had read "Gnosis" or "In Search of the Miraculous". And all of the articles and books of Laura's that I had read, had simply gone out of my head at that point. I was so torn up about all of this. But, I think you can see the interplay of the little "I's" and the true I. At least that is the way I see it now. The little "I's" keep trying to put me back to sleep, but the true I keeps going and going trying to wake me up.

Anyway, one night while I was laying in bed wrestling with this, it finally hit me. I realized what they were trying to tell me, or do to me. I saw the programs and the little "I's". There were all kinds of things running throught my mind. And I had a rush of ecstasy running through my body. I wanted to start jumping up and down on the bed. To yell EUREKA!!!!! I've got it!!! I was ready to just jump onto the internet and let everybody on casschat know that I had finally figured it out. I can't tell you all of the things that I was thinking, because I cannot remember most of them. But, I will never forget the feeling that went through me.

I think that I did actually have a fusion, or I was awake for an instance or something amazing. I have never felt that way since then, unfortunately. And it never could have happened without those two people who helped me see to this.

I have since thanked them and mentioned this episode, though not quite so thoroughly, on casschat a couple of times.

I also want to thank you manitoban for trying to figure out where you are feeling these negative emotions at.

If you have any comments, please feel free to do so.

 

[manitoban]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

It could be that your mental state triggers a strong reaction from your body, a sort of allergic reaction against a new "experience" OSIT

Yes, I think that you've hit the nail on the head here, Tigersoap. I had similar thoughts, but this has helped clarify it for me. I'm guessing that those I's that DON'T support my awakening were perhaps causing some kind of rebellion/allergic reaction against the new idea of the supportive I's reminding me about the Work. It was certainly a definate reaction from my body, that's for sure.
I appreciate the feedback, thanks.

 

[mabar]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Hi, first of all I like to thank Laura, SOTT team, Art and all ...I think Im learning too much, "too much" that is one of my problem at this time... I realizing now that after reading "Depression as a Steping Stone" and this thread, right now I feel is grief...I read the article looking for something...maybe Im depressed so I thought...at first while reading the article it wasnt bad, I was just trying to absorb the knowledge itself, reading others experiences I felt fine, I was not the only one...reading the thread it begun something, I was starting to feel...right now I feel lost...working them with a group, I have been thinking about that too, its the right moment because alone I dont think I will get through...its kind of difficult asking help, I usually dont ask for help...I dont like to ask for help it reminds me of my past, allways beeing assisted because I could not do it alone...I have many programs within myself... one of my big problems is dealing with emotions...

...Im not good at that, ...must be another program inserted in me since my childhood... I think that if not many ...at least deep negative emotions or whatsoever in the subconscious thats need to come out, otherwise will kept coming by automathic...

I started to do the stop, feeling the abdomen sensation, identifying from which program was coming the negative emotions, and even the spinning thing...but this was with "minor" negative emotions...but this morning I could not controlled the emotions, the deep ones. Do they have the same process? ...what happend to the crying?...I have been thinking alot after I cried ...then I go to people in which with my actions or words I offended them (mostly my parents) and I apologized...Im tired of apologyzing, it would be better if I control it before explodes...

...I was one in which had a ...destructive mood, almost dairy...funny and I was very shy?...I wasnt able to control the rage emotions as now...I use to slpa the doors, throw things etc... now Im not that shy and I have the rage emotions at control...or so I think, but others as for feeling bad because Im not that succesfull in life or being happy or have a job (Im having a hard time finding a job...5 months and it si frustating)...those ones plus the problems in the world and family and friends that understand why Iam concerned about the Irakis or Palestinian they are too far away...they said...plus the ones in the country...

...Im asking for help...but not knowing really what... writting helps, many things came up that I have not considered before and Im feel better.

Thank you for reading.

Mabar

 

[T.C.]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I just want to comment on something JOda was talking about a few posts back. It was to do with wallowing in our own grief and why this is difficult to let go, and why we might even enjoy this feeling.

I can personally relate to this comment and after reading In Search of the Miraculous, I was better equiped to analyise and cope with it.

Gurdjieff said it is important to let go of our self importance etc, but he also later in the book talks about self pity, and how it's so important to lose that also.

This set off lots of thoughts in my head about the meaning of this, at least in relation to myself at the time. I thought that maybe, what self pity gives me and maybe others is a feeling that "at least someone cares about me and my situation and is there to say, poor Tom, there there, your special and I feel sorry for you", even if that someone is me/us.

So when we try to let go of our self pity, well..., when I try to let go of my self pity, it's like I'm turning my back on the last one who gives me unconditional support. That "little me" within that is a programme and a drain of energy which plays on my STS FRV.

 

[Gaby]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

So when we try to let go of our self pity, well..., when I try to let go of my self pity, it's like I'm turning my back on the last one who gives me unconditional support. That "little me" within that is a program and a drain of energy which plays on my STS FRV.

Castaneda wrote: "Shamans have unmasked self-importance and found that it is self-pity masquerading as something else." Basically that it is a coin with two faces: self-importance and self-pity flipping according to our states. Another point of view of Castaneda:

In order to help his ward to erase personal history, the warrior as a teacher teaches three techniques: losing self-importance, assuming responsibility for one's acts, and using death as an adviser. Without the beneficial effect of these three techniques, erasing personal history would involve being shifty, evasive and unnecessarily dubious about oneself and one's actions.

There is no way to get rid of self-pity for good; it has a definite place and character in our lives, a definite facade which is recognizable. Thus, every time the occasion arises, the facade of self-pity becomes active. It has a history. But if one changes the facade, one shifts its place of prominence.
One changes facades by shifting the component elements of the facade itself. Self-pity is useful to the user because he feels important and deserving of better conditions, better treatment, or because he is unwilling to assume responsibility for the acts that brought him to the state that elicited self-pity.

Changing the facade of self-pity means only that one has assigned a secondary place to a formerly important element. Self-pity is still a prominent feature; but it has now taken a position in the background, in the same fashion that the idea of one's impending death, the idea of a warrior's humbleness, or the idea of responsibility for one's acts were all in the background at one time for a warrior, without ever being used until the moment he became a warrior.

Self-pity is like holding on to a role of victim as opposed of taking responsibility and it can be very addictive... But when you said "when I try to let go of my self pity, it's like I'm turning my back on the last one who gives me unconditional support.", I immediately thought that it was rather compassion for yourself what will provide you for support.

 

[Johnno]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Just thought I'd throw this quote from In Search of the Miraculous which may add something to this thread.

"I have already said before that sacrifice is necessary," said G. "Without sacrifice nothing can be attained. But if there is anything in the world that people do not understand it is the idea of sacrifice. They think they have to sacrifice something that they have. For example, I once said that they must sacrifice 'faith,' 'tranquillity,' 'health.' The understand this literally. But then the point is that they have not got either faith, or tranquillity, or health. All these words must be taken in quotation marks. In actual fact they have to sacrifice only what they imagine they have and which in reality they do not have. They must sacrifice their fantasies. But this is difficult for them, very difficult. It is much easier to sacrifice real things.

"Another thing that people must sacrifice is their suffering. It is very difficult also to sacrifice one's suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering. Man is made in such a way that he is never so much attached to anything as he is to his suffering. And it is necessary to be free from suffering. No one who is not free from suffering, who has not sacrificed his suffering, can work. Later on a great deal must be said about suffering. Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means."

Most of us tend to hold on to this subjective suffering for dear life.

 

[T.C.]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Wow, it's funny how our memory plays trickes on us. Johnnos post is actualy the part of the book I was talking about. G doesn't say self pity does he, he says it is suffering that must be sacrificed. That is what then lead me into thoughts about what he meant by this. I then came to the idea that if I'm suffering, it's because of my self importance. For me, the next association I made with this was of self pity and it was this term which stayed in my mind as what G had said, not suffering.

Thanks Johnno, I think next time I talk about something an author has written, it might be a good idea if I find the quote and read it through.

 

[Renaissance]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Most of us tend to hold on to this subjective suffering for dear life.

Indeed.

I recently discovered a program that has had a long standing block in being able to read much of the Signs daily news page on a continual basis. In the past I've attributed it to laziness, apathy, lack of will, vanity, etc. However, these things seem more like symptoms rather than a cause. When the block appears, it also brings along a chiding towards the self for not doing the reading. While this inner scolding seems like a secondary reaction, I think it may be closer to the root cause of the block. It seems this is the means of the predator feeding off of the true self.

Seeing and feeling the Terror of the Situation in the political, economic, and natural (or seemingly unnatural) events of our world can lay the groundwork for the work on the self. However, with the block mentioned above, it seems the false part of the self seeks negative emotion to be passed off as working toward conscious suffering. Thus attention is sucked into an addiction of phony sacrifice, like you'll find in any religious institution of the day. Past results showing the usefulness of the work of 'staring at infinity without flinching' are obscured by a fog that wants the acceptance of empty terror as real suffering. But it is only an image, a mask of conscious suffering. It also seems to call on the feminine vampire archetype which is elaborated in Hort's Unholy Hungers:

The feminine vampire's capacity for guilt-inducing martyrdom is described with excruciating precision in Tennessee William's play The Glass Menagerie (1945). The vampire in William's autobiography is Amanda Wingfield, a fading Southern belle whose husband has left her alone to raise their two children - the disconnected dreamer, Tom, and Laura, his crippled, reclusive sister. Although Amanda devotes most of her energy to feeding on the resistant Tom, she achieves her greatest vampiric success with Laura. (...)

Amanda clearly operates under her vampiric veil of vulnerability when she confronts Laura with her truancy from secretarial school in which Amanda has forcibly enrolled her:

[Amanda leans against the shut door and stares at Laura with a martyred look.]

AMANDA: Deception? Deception? [She slowly removes her hat and gloves, continuing the sweet suffering stare. She lets the hat and gloves fall to the floor - a bit of acting.]

LAURA: [shakily] How was the D.A.R. meeting? [Amanda slowly opens her purse and removes a dainty white handkerchief which she shakes out delicately and touches her lips.] Didn't you go to the D.A.R. meeting, Mother?

AMANDA: [faintly, almost inaudibly] No. No. I did not have the strength - to go to the D.A.R. In fact, I did not have the courage! I wanted to find a hole in the ground and hide myself in it forever! [She crosses slowly to the wall and removes the diagram of the typewriter keyboard. She holds it in front of her for a second, staring at it sweetly and sorrowfully - then bites her lips and tears it in two pieces.] . . . What are we going to do, what is gong to become of us, what is the future?

LAURA: Has something happened, Mother? [Amanda draws a long breath, takes out the handkerchief again, goes through the dabbing process.] (29-31)

Amanda describes how she has gone to the secretarial college only to find Laura has dropped out after the first test, during which she threw up on the floor and had to be carried out of the room. Laura confesses that since then, she has spent every day walking in the park, in order to avoid telling Amanda about here disgrace at the school. Then, noticing Amanda's martyred expression, she blurts out:

LAURA: Mother, when you're disappointed, you get that awful suffering look on your face, like the picture of Jesus' mother in the museum!

AMANDA: Hush! . . . [hopelessly fingering the huge pocketbook] So what are we going to do the rest of our lives? . . . Amuse ourselves with the glass menagerie, darling? . . . We won't have a business career - we've given that up because it gave us nervous indigestion! . . . What is there left but dependency all our lives? (33-34)

The martyred looks, the despairing words, the air of tragic suffering - these are all powerful weapons in the hands of feminine vampires such as Amanda. When Laura holds up the mirror to Amanda's tactics, comparing here expression to "that awful suffering look . . . like the picture of Jesus' Mother," Amanda silences her. Then she further alarms Laura by demolishing the boundaries between them, using "we" and "our" in her final flood of pathos. Against these weapons, Laura has no defense, and she crumbles before her mother in a spasm of culpability and remorse - both of which are ambrosia to the power seeking Amanda vampire.

It seems our mechanical suffering has a special relationship with the feminine vampire archetype. And it's all to easy to fall into when we're conditioned to be addicted to these types of negative emotion. There is also the hook using some form of survival as bait. In the instance of The Glass Menagerie, it was secretarial school; in the program I noticed, it is using the Work. While caught in the lure, the bait is only a hollow image of it's true state and the striving for such is likely contaminated as well. It's a miniature of ponerization.

I'd like to repeat the 4th Way quote Johnno included above for emphasis:

"I have already said before that sacrifice is necessary," said G. "Without sacrifice nothing can be attained. But if there is anything in the world that people do not understand it is the idea of sacrifice. They think they have to sacrifice something that they have. For example, I once said that they must sacrifice 'faith,' 'tranquility,' 'health.' The understand this literally. But then the point is that they have not got either faith, or tranquility, or health. All these words must be taken in quotation marks. In actual fact they have to sacrifice only what they imagine they have and which in reality they do not have. They must sacrifice their fantasies. But this is difficult for them, very difficult. It is much easier to sacrifice real things.

"Another thing that people must sacrifice is their suffering. It is very difficult also to sacrifice one's suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering. Man is made in such a way that he is never so much attached to anything as he is to his suffering. And it is necessary to be free from suffering. No one who is not free from suffering, who has not sacrificed his suffering, can work. Later on a great deal must be said about suffering. Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means."

 

[Tigersoap]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I think that it's even harder for people who had narcissistic parents as for them "suffering" equals love and to lose their pain would mean to betray their parents osit.

 

[Gaby]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Gurdjieff's quote about conscious VS unconscious suffering came into my mind when I was studying the book "Controlling Parents" by Dan Neuharth. I'll include a few quotes/concepts here.

"The long-term effects of trauma tend to be most prominent when people are stressed, in new situations, or in situations that remind them of the circumstances of their traumas. Unfortunately, being a parent is all three: stressful, new, and almost always the trigger for memories of their own childhood traumas."

"Trauma engenders fear .... Both your actual parents' behavior and your internalized parents' critical messages, no matter how mystifying, are driven by FEARS: fear of being seen as flawed, fear of feeling powerless, fear of feeling invalidated, fear of feeling vulnerable, fear of losing emotional control."

I found this quote useful, in conjunct with what we've learned and continue to learn about trauma/dissociative states and Laura's message of "Programs, Predator, Buffers", available at:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6419

Continuing with the book...

One of the fascinating aspects of human behavior is that it often compensates in reverse. Someone who feels particularly small may strut around acting larger than life. Someone who feels adrift in an emotional rapids may become a stoic. Someone who fears rejection may reject others first. Feeling flawed, controlling parents [and internalized parents] pretend they are perfect. Feeling small, they act big. Feeling afraid, they frighten others. Feeling bad about themselves, they shame others. Feeling wrong, they insist on being right. Feeling doubt, they confuse. Feeling deprived, they withhold. ...."

Well, this is more true when we are in a primitive defensive mechanism state...

Avoiding vulnerability is aimed as a survival mechanism. Because powerlessness, vulnerability, and unworthiness remind us of the desperate childhood days when we felt flawed, full of doubts, helpless, out of control, and afraid for our lives. Then as a survival mechanism we go in primitive defense mechanism states.

In the next quote, "controlling parents" may also be an equivalent with "internalized parents or introject":

Unconsciously, they adopt myths about themselves: the self-made man, the perfect mom, the good provider, the in-control dad, etc. These myths give parents the illusion that they are in total control of their destinies, masters of the universe after a childhood of feeling little mastery. To admit anything different would once more leave controlling parents feeling powerless. This may explain why some of them seem disconnected form the present, often unaware of their surroundings and feelings. Living in the moment risks loss of control and lacks guarantees - exactly how they felt as children.

Controlling parents are often unaware of why they act as they do. If they realized what lay underneath their maladaptive behavior, they'd have to face their painful childhoods, their dependency on others for their feelings of self-worth, and their desperate hunger for the symbols of success. They'd have to face the fact that they are as controlled as anyone else.

Controlling parents rarely learned as children that facing their feelings or admitting their limits can be healing. Because they try to control everything, they tend to think that others, including their children, are doing the same. Since most controllers want to be sure they are never dominated, they move to control first.

[...]

In short, being a controlling parent is a defensive action. A combination of factors - how the controlling parent was raised, lack of knowing better, external events, internal needs, and the footprints of trauma - leave controlling parents, unless they get help, playing out a lifelong defensive drama. Even as adults no longer at the mercy of childhood trauma, most controlling parents dare not acknowledge how powerless they once felt. They may even deny that the trauma occurred. Because as children they didn't get sufficient help, attention, and love, controlling parents generally feel that they are not adequate - though they may act in quite the opposite way.[...] Overcontrol is a futile effort to secure guarantees that they will be loved and safe rather than powerless, invalidated, or out of control. Yet it is costly because: Parents who fear being judged as flawed can never let others see them as they truly are. Parents who need to feel powerful must always be on guard against threats to their power. Parents who fear invalidation cannot tolerate questions or uncertainty. Parents who fear vulnerability view everything and everyone as potentially threatening. Parents who must avoid feeling out of control are likely to miss out on joy, spontaneity, and love.

So, again, Gurdjieff says:

"I have already said before that sacrifice is necessary," said G. "Without sacrifice nothing can be attained. But if there is anything in the world that people do not understand it is the idea of sacrifice. They think they have to sacrifice something that they have. For example, I once said that they must sacrifice 'faith,' 'tranquility,' 'health.' They understand this literally. But then the point is that they have not got either faith, or tranquility, or health. All these words must be taken in quotation marks. In actual fact they have to sacrifice only what they imagine they have and which in reality they do not have. They must sacrifice their fantasies. But this is difficult for them, very difficult. It is much easier to sacrifice real things.

"Another thing that people must sacrifice is their suffering. It is very difficult also to sacrifice one's suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering. Man is made in such a way that he is never so much attached to anything as he is to his suffering. And it is necessary to be free from suffering. No one who is not free from suffering, who has not sacrificed his suffering, can work. Later on a great deal must be said about suffering. Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means."

Investing energy to maintain a false image of the self that supposedly makes us "feel in control" out of fear, leads us to unconscious suffering and holding on to illusions that are product of trauma/dissociative states or transference leads us to unconscious suffering too.

Thanks goodness for conscious suffering through the Work here.

Just some thoughts...

 

[Renaissance]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

"Trauma engenders fear .... Both your actual parents' behavior and your internalized parents' critical messages, no matter how mystifying, are driven by FEARS: fear of being seen as flawed, fear of feeling powerless, fear of feeling invalidated, fear of feeling vulnerable, fear of losing emotional control."

(...)

Well, this is more true when we are in a primitive defensive mechanism state...

Avoiding vulnerability is aimed as a survival mechanism. Because powerlessness, vulnerability, and unworthiness remind us of the desperate childhood days when we felt flawed, full of doubts, helpless, out of control, and afraid for our lives. Then as a survival mechanism we go in primitive defense mechanism states.

And feelings of being vulnerable, unworthy, etc. are often triggered by fear, which I think could be said to be a primary primitive defense mechanism. In her new book, The Paranoia Switch, Stout bring up how the human species is unique in how we seek to control the objects of our fear. This is rather interesting and something most all people can relate to. And while fear is a primitive defense mechanism that is even inherent in our mammal friends, the control instinct seems something 'new' for humans. What I also find fascinating is that this doesn't seem the way a psychopath operates, or at least their 'fear and control' is of a completely different category. A psychopath will see a threat in creation, whereas a non-ponerized individual will be threatened by destruction. Perhaps this is what's so horrifying about psychopaths (at least in part), that their seeking control over things doesn't have any relation to an objective feeling of fear.

So if there is such opposing forces between subjective and objective fear, why is it that normal people seek such types of control? There seems a ponerization of control. The normal 'controlling instinct' should be in the context of having control of our machine, but it seems a certain 'something' in us distorts this helpful mechanism to seek control over others or a situation. Perhaps this 'something' includes the negative introject, but since we readily accept and integrate it into our psychology at such a young age, it seems possible there could be an inherited (genetic?) factor included as well. This seems to go along with what Carlos Castaneda taught about the 'foreign installation' of the predator's mind, Gurdjieff's description of the Kundabuffer, and the C's saying that some of our genes have been 'burnt' off.

 

[Gaby]

The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

In her new book, The Paranoia Switch, Stout bring up how the human species is unique in how we seek to control the objects of our fear. This is rather interesting and something most all people can relate to. And while fear is a primitive defense mechanism that is even inherent in our mammal friends, the control instinct seems something 'new' for humans.

I read a few excerpts of Stout's new book and it looked really interesting, I'll add it in my top priority to read list :)

 

[Username]

Re: The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's \

hi, how can i get the article "Depression as a Stepping Stone?" ? I really think i need it!