Depression As A Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth)

Cyre2067

The Living Force
The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I think those around you actively project some sort of "influence", it's strange to observe, but i've seen it happen to myself. It only occurs in their presence, but even over the phone when talking, it can have the same affect of altering my behavior to something other then what i would do if i was alone.

Usually i can realize this has happened only after it has occured, and then i get frustrated by its affects on me.
 

Fifth Way

Jedi Council Member
The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Cyre said:
Usually i can realize this has happened only after it has occured, and then i get frustrated by its affects on me.
Most people obviously do not realize anything at all.

I tried something that seemed to help also. Before I go to sleep I ask those "Is" in me, that support my path of awakening, to "warn me" as fast as possible as soon as a negative emotion arises. I was actually amazed a few times how well and fast that worked.
And when I know I am in the middle of a negative emotion and I still forget what to do, I re-read the 7 sentences broken down at the beginning of this thread.

I also forget to spin.

That I will do right now.

Over and out.
 

RflctnOfU

Jedi Council Member
The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Cyre2067 said:
I think those around you actively project some sort of "influence", it's strange to observe, but i've seen it happen to myself. It only occurs in their presence, but even over the phone when talking, it can have the same affect of altering my behavior to something other then what i would do if i was alone.

Usually i can realize this has happened only after it has occured, and then i get frustrated by its affects on me.
From Philokalia Vol 1 - On Asceticism and Stillness:
[...]
Do not develop a habit of associating with people who are materially minded and involved in worldly affairs. Live alone, or else with brethren who are detached from material things and of one mind with yourself. For if one associates with materially minded people involved in worldly affairs, one will certainly be affected by their way of life and will be subject to social pressures, to vain talk and every other kind of evil: anger, sorrow, passion for material things, fear of scandals. Do not get caught up in concern for your parents or affection for your relatives; on the contrary, avoid meeting them frequently, in case they rob you of the stillness you have in your cell and involve you in their own affairs. 'Let the dead bury their dead,' says the Lord; 'but come, follow me' (cf. Matt. 8:22)
[...]
Now this, from Mouravieff - Gnosis Vol 1

[...]
For those who undertake esoteric work in the world, the shelter must be built in his/her inner world - by the seeker himself, not outside him but within. The picturesque language of the Tradition says that man must build a cage in himself. This must be provided with all means of connection with and direction of the centres. It must also be solid enough to effectively resist all rebellions of the little 'I's', singly or 'federated'. This construction takes time. To play its role as an organ of direction, it must be continually enlarged, improved and perfected.
[...]
He who takes up esoteric work, says the Tradition, will greatly ease his task if he proves capable of thinking about it non-stop, like a lover who thinks of his loved one. He must do his best at the same time permanently to establish his abode in the cage. Meaning that he must not only put himself continually in a state of [presence[/i], but also in a state of presence in himself, which is not the same thing.
[...]
Both of these descriptions describe the "magnetic center", which we are all working to achieve. Of course, the selection from Philokalia was penned by a 'hermit' of the 4th century AD. (I think the spirit of 'not associating' with materially minded people is still valid.) My own experiences in this regard, when applied - especially in dealing with others - is nothing short of staggering. Interestingly enough, I have noticed that my ability to 'focus' is sharply increased when I am eating a balanced and healthy diet - rather, I think it would be more accurate to say I notice the lack of 'focus' in the opposite circumstances. I have a tendency to 'fall off the bandwagon' from time to time, and it is at those points that I tend to slip back into 'A' influences, and forget myself.

For those who haven't aquired Gnosis, I will parrot Laura, and others, and highly suggest getting it. It is well beyond the expositions of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, although thier contributions are very 'thick' as well.

My point is, diet is a major factor of building the 'cage/cell'. (I am not suggesting that your diet is poor, but only reflecting my own tendencies in this regard) :)

Kris
 
A

Art

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The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Brent, the day before your post (#43), I was thinking on you since I got caight on a traffic rage problem: A guy closed my way. And it was my turn. Traffic was very heavy. So I got upset and said with my hands "ok go on man!". He passed me, to stop right ahead of me. And here started a hands languaje conversation. The thing is, I felt my blood boiling. I realized of that sensation: The suma-cum-laude effect of the presence of a negative emotion. I had not had this since time ago. Knowing this, I continued our 'hands conversation' as I was feeling this raging sensation, precisely to hold it, and 'trap it', so to speack.

I felt what Fifth Way reports:

Fifth Way said:
Then I try to feel the physical sensations attached to the emotion which normally is some knotting-up in the abdominal area, which is where your lower emotional center is located that controls you at those occasions (...) Sometimes I even feel some kind of tingling radiating through the body.
I used every seconf of this "blood boiling" sensation to observe it and localize isolated effects that I could pin-poin to come and report because I had never had the chance before to actually be aware of this sensation on me and wanting it to prolong so I could had the chance to observe it, as I was feeling this state on my self.

I can report I was able to observe my self, that is: I was able to be on 'record' mode whilst the negative sensation was bitting me. And what I recognized (and I was thrilled because of this), is this: Under the 'boiling blood', there was something vibrating. It was precisely a "tingling radiating through the body", and I could not had put it better.

I did press the guy to prolongue the 'hands comunication', but this intention came NOT from the angry guy that I was, but from this other layer of awareness that I had captured THANKS TO REMEMBERING TO FOCUS ON THE SENSATION, AND NOT ON THE OFFENDED/HUMILIATED PERSONA THAT I WAS.

So I remember (and I am using the word 'remember') that I was trying to provoke the guy to 'offend me more' or to 'keep offending me', to prolongue, now, my observation on the sensation... and I was calm. But I was calm inside. Outside you could see me all red faced and 'talking' away with my hands on fury.

But it was so peculiar. Yes my blood was boiling and yes I was angry. But something on me was deattatched from all this and was even calm knowing that possibly a sudden emergence of enthusiasm would put-off my observation.

But the encounter ended. And that part on me faded away, and I continued my way shaking on anger and adrenaline. But I did rescue data that I cannot transmit other than how I have been explaining. I realized it is a sort of a little 'trick' one learns to perform, and this trik (tendencies accentuate) consist of, quite literally, having the first moments (less than a second) of lucidity, where one could then be able to introduce a flow of behavour into the negative emotion timeline, and such a flow of behavour consists on not loosing control of your self in a total and absolute manner: If we could just have this very very little option to realize what is happening even for one single moment, we could then be able to hold this last reduct of our selfs under our control and, from there, observe. And the observation is quite easy... no: It is easier is one has manage to capture it on the first moments.

'Easier', because once 'installed', one still has to concentrate to keep one' self on this spot which is unpartial. I swear I could had defussed my self and stop the 'hands argument', but I choosed not to because, besides all this, you Brent were on my mind and, with your presence, Fifth Way's too, and then 'all of you', and I wanted to experiment with great attention to have something to give you all.

I swear I could had even step off my car and go to this guy's car and appologize, and this, in-an-outside-calm-manner-but-in-a-inside-cold-manner.

I could had even defused my self, so I would not had end-up angry and shaking aftwerward, but here.... I most confess it.... I did not wanted to! Something in me did not wanted to do particulary this, and latter, as I was recolecting all this events that went through inside of my self, I realized that was my predator, because.... Because: I said "I did not wanted to" because of the way I rejected that posibility: I rejected it with arrogance, with pride, much in the fashion a proud woman would reject a guy, you know, looking at him up and down, and then swaping him with her chin to give him her back.

And I felt my predator loosed its concentration for a fragment of a moment, as for me to be able to recognize this inner actitude! And I am convinced this is why that "I" faded away: Predator realized of me 'catching' it, and strengthen it's lines over me, trowing me to this post-reaction of being angry, hating the guyt and shaking due to a fury that I know I could had avoided!

And I learned. I learned something! It is just sooo..... such a inner learning that I canot convey it. It was very small what I learned, but I learned something. For the very least, I learned that this manouver is a sort of a 'trick' that one has to learn to perform it. And it is almost 'easy' (that's my impression). It is almost... It is almost like a cooking recipy, a set of inner steps much as like when you are learning to dance! That is, this steps are... yes, they are almost like inner movements!

And what I also learned, is this: This achievment (that I cannot say I got it completelly), this achievement is literally behind a very thin veil, or better to say, behind a thin veil which is actually very very close or near to us! It is so close it is actually easy to grasp it, or should be! But we do not have the practize enough, the attention enough, as to being able to USE those very first fractions of the timeline to reserve a small portion of our selfs intact.

And so you say:

Cyre2067 said:
I feel like I'm missing something (...) If i could turn the damn movie off (...) I'll try it, think i'll have it, and then later realize i didn't, or forget what i did to get there in the first place.
It seems to me you are talking of an almost. And that is just how I felt: I was almost there. And I was almost to loose this observation status. All the experience was in an'almost' fashion.

And this is what I think: Persist. Continue. Dismiss the failure and frustration. Act as if nothing were to result of this efforts. Don't pay attention to that!

I think we need, beside practize, shocks that are strong enough as to actually get to shake us in a distinct manner. Socks strong enough as for them to make our blood boil, so to speack. More serious stuff. Tiny predicaments are useless. Small shocks are a total waist of time and they do not deserve to be considered. We need stronger negative emotions capable to 'turn us on'! Something that goes beyond our limits of a simple 'offence', and this do not have to be elaborated stuff: In my case such a thing happened in a rather vulgar situation, the which attacked my sence of justice: It was not that guy's turn for real (I was to enter into a main speed-way, and to that, the usual manouver here is: 'One goes in, one goes out'. I had respected this un-written law, and the guy saw all this. It was my turn and the guy closed my way. Possibly an outsider).

Fifth Way describes this when she sais: "Oh! Here is another negative emotion happenign right now". Then, indeed, there are a variety of things that can happen, but here is important: On times, after practize, we can choose what to happen! And when faced with that option, what are we going to choose? And this is why we ought to memorize a 'emergency plan' to deply precisely on this oportunity, because it has to be something already planed, already stablished, already set-up.

1.- Do not Panic, but do not stop.

2.- Seek the vibration behind the sensation.

3.- 'Record' the programs that jump in, in a do-not-panic-but-do-not-stop fashion.

That's all. Because we need data. Me, for instance, have captured this "arrogance" that NOW I can be aware of it on the next time (and it's ways to operate). But how could I had notice this, if I had not allowed it (that is, an 'anything') to happen? In such a way, we gather experience, that is, knowledge of our machine.

Manitoban has this 'experience' now, of a non-observation lapse,a dn THAT, as FW observes, is already observing, and a very valuable data to work on!

Way to go for all of us!!!

Now please tell me, what is your take on Baldwin? His work on possessions as being all those 'little I's'. What do you think of this subject?
 

manitoban

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The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Art said:
I swear I could had defussed my self and stop the 'hands argument', but I choosed not to because, besides all this, you Brent were on my mind and, with your presence, Fifth Way's too, and then 'all of you', and I wanted to experiment with great attention to have something to give you all.
And you have, Art, Well done! I find that the examples of people on this forum, of their struggles, provides me with just as much inspiration as all the books we've been reading. Especially the really detailed posts, like in this thread, where we get down to exactly what we were feeling and experiencing. This is a big help.

And
Art said:
We need stronger negative emotions capable to 'turn us on'! Something that goes beyond our limits of a simple 'offence', and this do not have to be elaborated stuff
Yes, this is true I think, most of the stuff that used to annoy me, as mentioned earlier in this thread just doesn't do it anymore. I have to laugh when I think that nowadays I am actually no longer dreading shocks that will trigger negative emotions! Whew if I had heard that a year ago I would have thought I'd gone insane!:)

The one thing that I've been thinking about is that I feel that I am starting to get a handle on what to do when neg emotions arise and I think the process is getting more understandable. The real problem for me is forgetting to do it! How in hell does one make themselves remember to self observe? I've seen recently how easy it is to forget - what can I do to make myself remember? This is going to sound silly but an idea I had was to put a sticker on my hand so hopefully I would see it and it would be my reminder. My son's got lots of stickers around so although I may look hilarious, if it helps me to remember even once it will be worth it. :)
 

Fifth Way

Jedi Council Member
The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

manitoban said:
The real problem for me is forgetting to do it! How in hell does one make themselves remember to self observe? I've seen recently how easy it is to forget - what can I do to make myself remember?
further up I said:
Before I go to sleep I ask those "Is" in me, that support my path of awakening, to "warn me" as fast as possible as soon as a negative emotion arises. I was actually amazed a few times how well and fast that worked.
...wich is a technique that was suggested on Casschat.
 

Cyre2067

The Living Force
The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

manitoban said:
The one thing that I've been thinking about is that I feel that I am starting to get a handle on what to do when neg emotions arise and I think the process is getting more understandable. The real problem for me is forgetting to do it! How in hell does one make themselves remember to self observe? I've seen recently how easy it is to forget - what can I do to make myself remember? This is going to sound silly but an idea I had was to put a sticker on my hand so hopefully I would see it and it would be my reminder. My son's got lots of stickers around so although I may look hilarious, if it helps me to remember even once it will be worth it.
G mentions "alarm clocks", and i think your sticker idea is just one way for you to remind yourself to "wake up". He also goes on to mention that after awhile we stop hearing the same clocks, which is why group-work is so important. We have to consistently check with the group in order to make sure actual and not imagined progress is being made. Def the function of this thread, imho.

I agree with the theme of lil neg emotional bits just aren't "good enough". I remember, way back when i started self-obing, i was at a party where this guy was all over a girl i knew, and it really got me angry. This drunk obnoxious dusche was obviously making this girl feel uncomfortable, but while i was practicing self ob, i could watch myself get angry. At this point, i dont think i "used" it properly, but i recall the intensity of the emotion, and compared with my normal road-rage it's much much greater. Usually when i get angry in traffic, its not getting angry really, its my self-importance, my desire to get where im going, fast, that flairs up, it's what i'd deem annoyance or frustration, not anger.

So it seems we are ready for more intense emotional shocks... or maybe we're all deluding ourselves... :-) who knows.... guess we'll just keep practicing and seein what happens.
 

manitoban

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The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Fifth Way said:
manitoban said:
The real problem for me is forgetting to do it! How in hell does one make themselves remember to self observe? I've seen recently how easy it is to forget - what can I do to make myself remember?
further up I said:
Before I go to sleep I ask those "Is" in me, that support my path of awakening, to "warn me" as fast as possible as soon as a negative emotion arises. I was actually amazed a few times how well and fast that worked.
...wich is a technique that was suggested on Casschat.
I actually wrote down these words asking those I's the day you posted them - it seemed like a great idea, and I had every intention of saying them before I went to sleep - and guess what - I FORGOT!! I think I need the sticky to remind me even to do that... :)
 

Fifth Way

Jedi Council Member
The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

manitoban said:
I had every intention of saying them before I went to sleep - and guess what -I FORGOT!
And my wild guess is that this is not because you are intellectually challenged, but in fact it is because those pesky "Is" in you that are boycotting your efforts, that want to keep you asleep, running more programs to distract you and move you away from it. Yes, go ahead, stitch it on your pillow. I do. :cool:
 

Nienna

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The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I have been following this thread with much interest. I have been able, some of the time, to feel the negative emotions coming on. And if it is not strong enough, I try to fuel it up by thinking about what is upsetting me. But, when I feel these sensations, they feel like something spinning in my solar plexes area. Not in the abdomin. Then, the neg. emotion either just diffuses and melts away, or I get a shivering sensation that seems to go up from the solar plexes to the heart area or a little higher. My question is, first, is something wrong with the feeling being in the solar plexes area instead of the abdomin? And, second, what does the shivering signify? From what I am reading, the melting away of the emotion is that I lost it. The shivering has only happened twice that I can remember. I just don't know if it is significent.

Any help will be appreciated.

Lynne
 

RflctnOfU

Jedi Council Member
The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Lynne said:
I have been following this thread with much interest. I have been able, some of the time, to feel the negative emotions coming on. And if it is not strong enough, I try to fuel it up by thinking about what is upsetting me. But, when I feel these sensations, they feel like something spinning in my solar plexes area. Not in the abdomin. Then, the neg. emotion either just diffuses and melts away, or I get a shivering sensation that seems to go up from the solar plexes to the heart area or a little higher. My question is, first, is something wrong with the feeling being in the solar plexes area instead of the abdomin? And, second, what does the shivering signify? From what I am reading, the melting away of the emotion is that I lost it. The shivering has only happened twice that I can remember. I just don't know if it is significent.

Any help will be appreciated.

Lynne
Mouravieff describes sexual energy (SI 12 [soloar plexus]) being usurped by the negative emotional center. However, through constation, that Hydrogen (SI 12) resonates with the SOL 12 of the higher emotional center, and vivifies it. I imagine the shivering sensation is that resonance. So, I do think that it is significant.

Kris

P.S. If you don't have it, get a copy of Gnosis of Boris Mouravieff
 

Craig

Jedi Master
The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

RflctnOfU said:
Lynne said:
I have been following this thread with much interest. I have been able, some of the time, to feel the negative emotions coming on. And if it is not strong enough, I try to fuel it up by thinking about what is upsetting me. But, when I feel these sensations, they feel like something spinning in my solar plexes area. Not in the abdomin. Then, the neg. emotion either just diffuses and melts away, or I get a shivering sensation that seems to go up from the solar plexes to the heart area or a little higher. My question is, first, is something wrong with the feeling being in the solar plexes area instead of the abdomin? And, second, what does the shivering signify? From what I am reading, the melting away of the emotion is that I lost it. The shivering has only happened twice that I can remember. I just don't know if it is significent.

Any help will be appreciated.
Mouravieff describes sexual energy (SI 12 [soloar plexus]) being usurped by the negative emotional center. However, through constation, that Hydrogen (SI 12) resonates with the SOL 12 of the higher emotional center, and vivifies it. I imagine the shivering sensation is that resonance. So, I do think that it is significant.
I think you've made a few assumptions here, RflctnOfU. Logically, it seems you've associated Lynne's "fuelling process" with constatation, but I don't think there is enough description/data there to make it. Thinking about what is upsetting you could mean anything. Also, Mouravieff states that a victory over a negative emotion causes an influx of joy into the lower emotional center. I'm going to assume that if Lynne had truly performed a transmutation, then she probably would have framed it in more or less the same terms; I don't think a shiver is synonymous.

Here's an excerpt from Gnosis:

But constatation has yet another effect that is of primary importance: the immediate disassociation of the components which constitute the negative emotion liberates the energy SI-12 which the passions had drawn into the motor centre; a result of constatation is that this is automatically concentrated in the emotional centre which it then sets in motion.

We know that normal the intensive work of this centre is carried out with the aid of fine energy of the 12th degree, A victory over negative emotion brings an inflow of joy into the lower emotional centre. This joy is an expression of the abundance of the energy SI-12 released by constatation. This latter makes the lower emotional centre vibrate at the rapid rhythm that is normal to it, and this enables the establishment of instantaneous contact with the higher emotional centre and triggers the release of a current of energy SOL-12 from the latter.
I think it would be a good idea to closely read Laura's post on this aspect of the Work:

Here we are brought back to the Doctrine of the Present, particularly as it relates to NEGATIVE emotions. This is very important because it is one of the fastest ways to progress. But it needs guidance and care. As I said, it is NOT a question of suppression, but transmutation. And when a person is dealing with their own inner programs, their prejudices, their particular likes and dislikes and "buttons" and so on, it is SO easy to deceive the self. I would say that it cannot even be done without a group because the tendency to lie to the self to justify what the mind "likes" is way too easy.
 
A

Art

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The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Uff... thanks for that, Craig!

There are so many things on Laura's post... I urge you to read it!

Some extracts:

Laura:
Introspective observation brightens our inner being just like a streetlamp,
and negative emotions can only be formed and begin to act in the inner darkness which characterizes the state of confluence(...) The light projected by constatation within the limits of the Present disassociates the negative emotions, and the passions which gave rise to them then fall back into a latent state.

Laura's student:
Well as this idea came to me I felt the warmest rush
through my body that COULD be described as joy. I now know what you mean,
without a doubt, what you meant when you wrote:

"Now, next time try to feel the heat and turn your "self viewer" on
yourself, inside, so that you sort of say "whoah! What am I feeling? Why
am I feeling it? What is reasonable about what I am feeling? Let me go
over in my mind carefully; what IS reasonable and what I know to be true
based on FACTS...?" and so on. Keep thinking hard and feeling the heat,
and keeping it below the level of the neck. Doing this while in the state
of heat is truly a magical act."

Mouravieff:
This indicates that, correctly practised through introspection and effective within the limits of the individual Present, constatation enables man to win a total victory. The inflow of higher joy that the current of energy SOL-12 liberates can then transmute the energy SI-12 freed from the mixture into SOL-12 by induction.

The duration of the contact between the lower and higher emotional centres established by this can then be prolonged.

It is obvious that this possibility only exists for the disciple who, after having crossed the first Threshold, perseveres in climbing the Staircase, when he possesses a magnetic centre in formation.

Laura:
In other words, prolongation of the state only occurs long after you have mastered a lot of situations that are a bit more intense than being mad at your son's teacher. But every situation that you practice in helps to "build the spiritual muscle."

- without a victory over this very same emotion, man cannot feel the joy that is provoked by a current of energy SOL-12 coming from the higher emotional centre; and without this current, the energy SI-12 cannot be transmuted into SOL-12 as it is first drawn in by the appearance of the negative emotion, then liberated by introspective constatation within the limits of the individual Present.

The more violent the negative emotion, the greater the quantity of energy SI-12 drawn in, which can be transmuted into SOL-12 in case of victory.

Laura:
The downside of that is that the more violent the negative emotion, the harder it is to master. Another level could be a woman who has just discovered that her husband is leaving her for another woman. That's a doozie. Lots of energy to work with there, but hardly anyone ever does it. They don't know they can. They don't know what gifts these types of events really are.

Mouravieff:
By carrying out this work with all the sincerity of which he is capable, the neophyte can reach the_Path of Access which will lead him towards the Way. In this way he will put off the old man, the slave of his passions, and will put on the new man which is renewed in Knowledge.

We have just studied the negative emotions which are born in us.

But as he advances up the Staircase, the neophyte will find that the times when he feels a negative emotion arising within him become more and more rare. The energy SI-12 then remains asleep in the sexual centre, since the absence of passions no longer calls it towards the lower centres where it may be used.

It is at this point of his evolution that the neophyte will find the obvious utility of those who are hostile to him.

We repeat: it is this energy which, having become available, allows the establishment of a contact with the higher emotional centre and accelerates the growth and the development of the magnetic centre. The faithful finds in this struggle the source of energy that is indispensable to him in order to progress.

By dominating the mechanical reactions that the reproaches and attacks of others may produce in him, someone who struggles between the two Thresholds separates and rejects the elements which are parasites on the fine energy mobilized by negative emotions.

We repeat: it is this energy which, having become available, allows the establishment of a contact with the higher emotional centre and accelerates the growth and the development of the magnetic centre. The faithful finds in this struggle the source of energy that is indispensable to him in order to progress.

He will then understand that he can and must love his enemies and bless those who curse him.

The higher the faithful climbs on the Staircase, the more rare are the occasions on which negative emotions arise in him by his own initiative. This is comprehensible. With regular introspection and inner constatation he will progressively gain knowledge of himself, that is, of the structure of his Personality and the way it functions. The opinion that 'Knowledge is Strength', expressed at the time of the first industrial revolution, is wholly applicable to the inner revolution which takes place in man after introspection.

A slave of his passions, of his instincts, and so of his negative emotions, he had until yesterday always managed to justify himself by using commonly accepted slogans as well as by remarking that his behaviour was simply human and normal.

Now the faithful begins to disapprove of these emotions; he begins to realize that he is a slave and to understand that the negative emotions, which are an effect of the General Law, seek to keep him in his primitive state and to hold him in his place, for the good of the whole, but to the detriment of his personal interests. This attitude becomes firmer in spite of all the seductive or frightening appearances that the mirage of life, constituted of all the A influences, faces him with.

This first knowledge - the beginning of the higher knowledge. Above all it appears to him in the form of a mastery of the movements of his psyche. Of course this does not happen immediately; he has to pay a high ransom in order to be freed from this slavery. And the ransom can be raised only at the price of sustained labour that is generally long and hard. However, with conscious and prolonged efforts of introspective constatation, the faithful who burns with Faith and perseveres in climbing the Staircase will find that he is more and more detached from the negative emotions which, under the dominion of the General Law, have always tended to appear in him.

The first rudiments of gnosis, the higher knowledge and practice which give one mastery of oneself, progressively bring the inner peace which is the first serious result of the efforts made.

This inner peace is the indispensable condition that will enable him to collect all his energies so that he will be able to progress on the Staircase, and it is this same inner peace that will save him from falling.

However, when we cultivate this inner peace, our opportunities for profitably exploiting the negative emotions born in us, so as to obtain fine energies, become very scarce. Then there remains only one other source, that of negative emotions aroused by shocks from outside us.

This kind of shock will never be lacking for those who work in the world.


Indeed, to the General Law someone who 'moves' looks like a fugitive from collective work, and nature takes immediate steps -a whole series of appropriate measures - to make the rebel fall back into line.

Then begins the struggle, the great struggle, the Invisible Coimbat on whose outcome the fate of the Knight depends. This uninterrupted combat lasts the whole length of the Staircase, and the faithful does not obtain his final victory until after the last trials, when he finds himself in front of the second Threshold.

All along the way, however, progress is ensured by partial victories over this or that passion, over the tendency to sleep, over violent shocks or scandals coming from outside or even from inside him.

The struggle is painful, especially because one does not recognize the enemy until after one has been hit; his approach is always masked in infinitely varied ways: considerations, seductions, a desire to be useful or agreeable, condescensions, noble attitudes, etc.

Laura:
Wars and revolutions are certainly calamities for the generations that suffer them, but ancient and modern History show us that they provoke a recrudescence of human activity not only on the battlefields but also in the chancelleries and in the silent studies of philosophers and men of letters, as well as in the laboratories and factories. And it is from that activity, provoked if not imposed by the calamities of wars, that marvels are born for the following generations. This is one indirect but clearly positive effect of negative emotions. We may even add that, without negative emotions, the door onto the path of access to evolution would be closed to individuals as well as to human groups.
One ought to read the entore post! It is so rich!

So it is definetelly a Joy, and all this is definetelly achieved through persistent intorspection and constatation.

About this Joy: I do not think it is a state similar to the one we have after hearing a good joke or while being at a nice party, instance, Happyness. Webster defines it as "a state of happiness or felicity"

I think it is more subtile to that, and more closer to the notion of serenity as in 'inner peace' -a state to calmness.

Serenity, form the word Serene:

Etymology: Middle English, from Latin serenus clear, cloudless, untroubled
1 a : clear and free of storms or unpleasant change <serene skies> b : shining bright and steady <the moon, serene in glory -- Alexander Pope>
3 : marked by or suggestive of utter calm and unruffled repose or quietude <a serene smile>

Towars the end of the film "The Matrix", this Joy falls on Neo: it is when he resucitates and stands-up. He bretahs and the visual effect is the hall he is in (the Matrix), folds away as he breaths. Then he opens his eyes, looking at the agents without fear, without hate, without anguish. It is a state of ... Joy!
 

RflctnOfU

Jedi Council Member
The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

Craig said:
RflctnOfU said:
Lynne said:
I have been following this thread with much interest. I have been able, some of the time, to feel the negative emotions coming on. And if it is not strong enough, I try to fuel it up by thinking about what is upsetting me. But, when I feel these sensations, they feel like something spinning in my solar plexes area. Not in the abdomin. Then, the neg. emotion either just diffuses and melts away, or I get a shivering sensation that seems to go up from the solar plexes to the heart area or a little higher. My question is, first, is something wrong with the feeling being in the solar plexes area instead of the abdomin? And, second, what does the shivering signify? From what I am reading, the melting away of the emotion is that I lost it. The shivering has only happened twice that I can remember. I just don't know if it is significent.

Any help will be appreciated.
Mouravieff describes sexual energy (SI 12 [soloar plexus]) being usurped by the negative emotional center. However, through constation, that Hydrogen (SI 12) resonates with the SOL 12 of the higher emotional center, and vivifies it. I imagine the shivering sensation is that resonance. So, I do think that it is significant.
I think you've made a few assumptions here, RflctnOfU. Logically, it seems you've associated Lynne's "fuelling process" with constatation, but I don't think there is enough description/data there to make it. Thinking about what is upsetting you could mean anything. Also, Mouravieff states that a victory over a negative emotion causes an influx of joy into the lower emotional center. I'm going to assume that if Lynne had truly performed a transmutation, then she probably would have framed it in more or less the same terms; I don't think a shiver is synonymous.

Here's an excerpt from Gnosis:

But constatation has yet another effect that is of primary importance: the immediate disassociation of the components which constitute the negative emotion liberates the energy SI-12 which the passions had drawn into the motor centre; a result of constatation is that this is automatically concentrated in the emotional centre which it then sets in motion.

We know that normal the intensive work of this centre is carried out with the aid of fine energy of the 12th degree, A victory over negative emotion brings an inflow of joy into the lower emotional centre. This joy is an expression of the abundance of the energy SI-12 released by constatation. This latter makes the lower emotional centre vibrate at the rapid rhythm that is normal to it, and this enables the establishment of instantaneous contact with the higher emotional centre and triggers the release of a current of energy SOL-12 from the latter.
I think it would be a good idea to closely read Laura's post on this aspect of the Work:

Here we are brought back to the Doctrine of the Present, particularly as it relates to NEGATIVE emotions. This is very important because it is one of the fastest ways to progress. But it needs guidance and care. As I said, it is NOT a question of suppression, but transmutation. And when a person is dealing with their own inner programs, their prejudices, their particular likes and dislikes and "buttons" and so on, it is SO easy to deceive the self. I would say that it cannot even be done without a group because the tendency to lie to the self to justify what the mind "likes" is way too easy.
Craig, thanks for posting the link to Laura's post. Very informative. Hindsight being what it is, I absolutely was making some assumptions. I think it is time to re-evaluate some things in my inner life.

Thanks again

Kris
 

Nienna

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
The First Victory. Comments on LKJ's "Depression as a Stepping Stone?"

I am sorry for all of the confusion. One of the things I was trying to find out was, since I am feeling these things I associate as negative emotions in the solar plexus area, and I was reading that others were feeling a knotting in the abdomen, was I mistaken in what I thought I was feeling. I try to keep the emotion rolling for as long as I can, examining it as to what caused the emotion to arise, what was I doing, who said or did something to engage the emotion, I try to feel the emotion, to get into it, to know it and try to not let it escape. This is hard for me to do and sometimes the emotion just slips away, and like I said, two times I can remember it sent a shiver (that is the only way I can explain it) upwards. I was just wondering if I was on the right track. As, I keep reading in both Gnosis and everywhere else, that you need a group to help you out with these things, I thought I would ask for opinions/help from those who are experiencing this. I have read Laura's article, too. but, it looks like it's time for a refresher.

Thank guys, and any additional comments are welcome and needed.
 
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