Do-it-yourself liposomal nutrients

Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Gimpy said:
Received this one yesterday evening: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CD9XGC/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00

Hubby is pushing me to keep posting, as he's concerned I'll get depressed. :knitting:

If I didn't have a cool book to read, that would be true. :flowers:

I'm going to start with this one and see how it goes.....

From what I'm reading, one needs to take quite a bit to get a serious therapeutic effect for a given "condition". Remember this:

The liposomal form of vitamin C employed in this study consists of 1-gram (1000 milligram) dose sachets of vitamin C powder encapsulated in lecithin (phosphatidylcholine), as supplied by Livon Laboratories of Henderson, Nevada.
A British laboratory (Biolab, London) that has conducted thousands of vitamin C assays over a 10-year period, confirms that 20-gram and 36-gram doses of oral vitamin C, as utilized by researchers Hickey and Roberts, achieved far higher blood concentration than had ever been measured previously. Repeated dosing rather than massive single-dose vitamin C averts side effects such as diarrhea.

And this:

The latest version of oral vitamin C supplementation is liposomal vitamin C, which I was introduced to by Dr. Thomas Levy, who is clearly one of the leaders in this area. Liposomal vitamin C bypasses many of the complications of traditional vitamin C or ascorbic acid, and, according to Dr. Levy, you can achieve far higher intracellular concentrations this way.

I'm guessing that they administered one sachet every half hour or something like that to get that many grams in a day.

But that's for cancer, I believe. Probably 10 grams liposomal would be therapeutic for most autoimmune type things. That's my experimental goal for the moment. And of course, that's why we decided to make our own - if it works, it saves a HUGE amount of money along with relieving the suffering on which no value can be put.

I made a first batch today and did it this way and it turned out beautifully.

I put 3 tablespoons of non-GMO lecithin in a cup of distilled water and let it soak for about 4 hours.

Then, I put 3 tablespoons of ascorbic acid powder in another cup of distilled water and dissolved it.

Next, I poured both into the chamber of the ultrasonic thing and set it on 25 minutes. It was done in about 12 minutes, so will not set it so high next time. It was slightly thickish and creamy and all the foam was gone though you can get it foamy again by shaking it.

We did invest in a better ultrasonic thingy since we have to make so much to cover everyone and this more powerful machine works extremely well. Kinda like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Kendal-Commercial-ULTRASONIC-CLEANER-HB36/dp/B002QD624C/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_15

I've done one batch today and have more lecithin soaking to make another batch. I'm decanting it into personal drinking bottles (glass) with each person's name on it.

I'm thinking that somebody could make this stuff for group members at a reasonable cost and send it by mail or UPS or something. With the big ultrasonic thing, it was really good. The smaller one that we have for Ark's hobby just didn't cut it.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

We did invest in a better ultrasonic thingy since we have to make so much to cover everyone and this more powerful machine works extremely well. Kinda like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Kendal-Commercial-ULTRASONIC-CLEANER-HB36/dp/B002QD624C/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_15

I've done one batch today and have more lecithin soaking to make another batch. I'm decanting it into personal drinking bottles (glass) with each person's name on it.

I'm thinking that somebody could make this stuff for group members at a reasonable cost and send it by mail or UPS or something. With the big ultrasonic thing, it was really good. The smaller one that we have for Ark's hobby just didn't cut it.


Does the heating element have a shut off? Or is that necessary for blending the mix?

Once its figured out if it works or not, we'll look at getting the equipment etc. :) I'm going to start with the recommended 2 packs, then ramp it up, once I know if its going to just go through my system too fast.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Gimpy said:
We did invest in a better ultrasonic thingy since we have to make so much to cover everyone and this more powerful machine works extremely well. Kinda like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Kendal-Commercial-ULTRASONIC-CLEANER-HB36/dp/B002QD624C/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_15

Does the heating element have a shut off? Or is that necessary for blending the mix?

You turn them on separately. I don't use the heat turner-onner thing.

Gimpy said:
Once its figured out if it works or not, we'll look at getting the equipment etc. :) I'm going to start with the recommended 2 packs, then ramp it up, once I know if its going to just go through my system too fast.

I've made about 5 liters today thus far.

I sat down and did some calculations. One level tablespoon of pure vitamin C powder weighs 10.67 grams. (I used a real measure, not just a spoon out of the drawer.) Three tablespoons go into each 2 liquid cup batch for a total of 32 grams (and tiny fraction). That means that one cup of finished liquid has 16 grams of vitamin C. We have a little shot glass, ten of which makes a cup. So that means, ten shots a day is 16 actual grams. The absorption of the liposomal variety is about 5 times the absorption of vitamin C straight, so that is approximately 80 effective grams. THAT'S a therapeutic dose, for sure! I've had about 5 shots myself so far today (sampling the brew) and nary a bubble. Tomorrow, I'll put it to the real test. (Along with several others in the house.) I'll try taking two shots every two or three hours.

It's definitely NOT tasty, but it's tolerable.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

About 6-8 months ago, a friend of mine jumped on the Lipo-C bandwagon and started making big batches for himself. He had/has a number of health issues including chronic Hep C. I asked him to tell me about his experience with the Lipo-C and here is what he wrote back, fwiw:

I used a non GMO organic product. I believe the brand was NOW. When I started taking it, I felt better right away, but---after awhile, not so much. What really worked for me was Carlson Finest fish oil, magnesium, calcium zinc and the trace minerals. Of course, removing GMO, gluten and sugars, and going grass fed is something that you guy's are already doing, so I won't bring that in to the equation. I was listening to a doctor on CTCoast, and he was talking about the importance of taking turmeric with a little black pepper. India has less than 1 percent of the population suffering from dementia and Alzheimer's. The dose needs to be 800 mg x 2 per meal, and ideally 4 times a day! I am currently doing this. The black pepper somehow helps it get into the bloodstream. There are no side effects for taking that much. If the proggression is not severe, the plaque build-up can be reversed. I was talking to John at US Wellness Meats, and he told me that the Water soluable Cal MAg and some others, that UScellwellness.com and their US wellness meats website, are different than the rest of the mineral supplement products. I like and respect John, so I'll be ordering some when I run out of my current mineral products. I hope this helps. PS.--Not to sound negative---but he also said that Vitamin C did not live up to it's expectations, because of the blood brain barrier. Also, I know we are getting omega 3's in our grass fed meats and fats but---there is something magical about organic Nutiva coconut oil, turmericin the amounts listed above, ionic minerals, and ---Carlson's finest fish oil in lemon or orange. Vitacost always has it on sale. It gets the Gringo award for mind rejuvination.
Mental clarity is a must, for quality of life enjoyment.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

How much was he taking and for what reason and how long?

Also, there is a study that suggests that the liposomal version does cross the BBB.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Laura said:
How much was he taking and for what reason and how long?

Also, there is a study that suggests that the liposomal version does cross the BBB.

At the time, he was mainly after residual HepC virus titters, but he also had much fatigue, mental fog, banged up body from years of abuse, and probably alcohol abuse effects - long list of chronic symptoms. I've been sending him diet info including links to forum threads (he read PBPM). Now I think he is essentially KD plus the supps mentioned.

I'll ask him how much he took and for how long.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Regarding liposomes and the blood brain barrier, at first I thought it was tricky, mainly because of the cannabis research in brain tumors and how some researchers had trouble getting the fatty components through the BBB after a certain lipid saturation point. But poking around I find that liposomes are actually used to deliver drugs through the BBB:

_http://www.ajronline.org/content/185/3/763.full

One novel method that has a high degree of potential for selective delivery of chemotherapy across the blood-brain barrier is sequestration of a drug within a vehicle or carrier that could preferentially cross solely at the blood-tumor barrier. Liposomes, which are microscopic spherical vesicles constructed of phospholipid bilayers that can be designed to encapsulate contrast agents and drugs, may suit this purpose (Figs. 2A, 2B, and 2C). Considerable interest has been generated in understanding the mechanisms by which liposomes cross the blood-brain barrier under various physiologic conditions and developing methods for preferential delivery of liposomes at the tumor site. Liposomes passively target tumors in which there is disorganized vasculature [23]. This feature is more related to higher permeability than to disorganization per se [24-26]. However, specific features, such as vesicle size, chemical affinity, and thermal (or pH) sensitivities can be engineered, which provide the means for targeting liposomes for specific delivery to tumors.

One important means for modifying the target environment and increasing liposome delivery to tumors is hyperthermia [27] (Figs. 2A, 2B, and 2C). In animal models, heating to temperatures of 41-43°C increases tumor microvascular pore size and increases permeability to various substances, including ferritin, antibodies, and liposomes. The exact mechanism for this phenomenon is not known with certainty. However, a leading hypothesis is that hyperthermia may disaggregate the endothelial cell cytoskeleton, thereby decreasing size of endothelial cells and effectively increasing pore size [27]. Other actions of hyperthermia to increase permeability, such as increasing both tumor blood flow and intravascular pressure and decreasing tumor interstitial pressure, may also operate to a lesser degree. One murine study used a human tumor xenograft (SKOV-3), in which extravasation of 100-nm liposomes is not seen at normothermia (34°C) [27]. Liposome extravasation was first seen after heating to 40°C and increased after further heating to 42°C (Figs. 2A, 2B, and 2C), at which point tumor vessel hemorrhage and collapse was noted. Because temperature-sensitive liposomes can also be manufactured, the increased permeability of the blood-brain barrier to liposomes after hyperthermia raises interesting therapeutic possibilities. In preclinical models, the use of the thermally sensitive doxorubicin-containing liposome with 42°C heating resulted in a 30-fold increase in drug delivery to the tumor compared with free drug, and a fivefold increase in drug delivery compared with nonthermally sensitive liposomes [28]. It is likely that similar effects could be seen in brain tumors. For instance, hyperthermia could be locally applied to human brain tumors after IV infusion of heat-sensitive liposomes; the hyperthermia would serve to both increase permeability of the liposomes across the blood-brain barrier and also act to promote release of liposome-borne therapeutic agents into the tumor.

A combination of FIR sauna and liposome vitamin C or other supplement seems like a good experiment.

Then I found this research paper about the use of liposomes in pharmaceuticals and it seems that liposomes of natural phospholipids and cholesterol do get cleared out from the bloodstream rather quickly.

Drug Transport to Brain with Targeted Liposomes

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC539328/

Liposomes and steric stabilization

Liposomes can be described as vesicles in which an aqueous inner volume is entirely enclosed by a phospholipid membrane bilayer. In pharmaceutical sciences, liposomes have been used traditionally as formulation ingredients to assist in formulation of poorly soluble therapeutic agents for oral or parenteral administration. The antibiotic amphotericin B is an example of a marketed drug that makes use of this formulation principle for intravenous infusion.1 The pharmacokinetics of conventional liposomes, i.e., liposomes that consist of naturally occurring phospholipids and cholesterol, is characterized by a very high systemic plasma clearance. Such vesicles are rapidly removed from the circulation after intravenous administration by macrophages of the reticuloendothelial system, namely the liver, the spleen, and the bone marrow.2 The liposome half-life in the circulation can be prolonged considerably by incorporation of gangliosides (such as monosialoganglioside GM1 derived from bovine brain3) or polyethylene glycol (PEG) derivatized lipids within the phospholipid bilayer of conventional liposomes.4–6 Conventional liposomes coated with the inert and biocompatible polymer PEG are often referred to as sterically stabilized liposomes. The PEG coating is believed to prevent binding of opsonins from physiological fluids such as plasma, which in turn avoids the recognition by phagocytotic cells.7 PEG phospholipids are safe and can be prepared synthetically at high purity and in large quantities, which has led to their acceptance for clinical applications. Animal and human studies8 have demonstrated pronounced differences with respect to pharmacokinetic parameters between conventional and sterically stabilized PEG liposomes: in humans, pegylation of liposomes resulted in a 50-fold decrease in plasma volume of distribution to a value similar to the plasma volume (from 200 to 4.5 liters), a 200-fold decrease in systemic plasma clearance from 22 to 0.1 l/hour and a nearly 100-fold increase in area under the time-concentration curve.9 The apparent terminal half-life of PEG liposomes reached up to 90 h in human.8 The extended circulation half-life of sterically stabilized liposomes in combination with an increased permeability of tumor vasculature results in passive accumulation of PEG liposomes in solid end-stage tumors.10 This principle of passive targeting to tumor tissue has been applied to commercial formulations of doxorubicin used for the chemotherapy of malignant Kaposi's sarcoma or breast cancer.11

The information that we have on liposomal vitamin C being the equivalent of the IV Vitamin C comes from LivOn Labs and their compounds. But it seems this holds true for the home made version with natural phospholipids:

_http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/2191.2.132257620813258461/liposome-encapsulated/liposome-encapsulation.html

This diagram of a liposome cutaway shows how the tails of phospholipids turn inward to form a bilayer membrane, and in so doing encapsulate a therapeutic agent.

Although research has not clearly shown how the therapeutic agents in a liposome are actually released, there are a couple of theories. One theory suggests that the phospholipids are processed in the liver as fats and that this process releases the vitamin C. Another theory proposes that cells all over the body, hungry for phospholipid materials to repair cell membranes and other cellular structures, "steal" these materials from the liposome allowing their contents to leak out.

Lets have a look again to their study:

_http://www.livonlabs.com/proof/Dr_Hickey_Clinical_Study_Published.pdf

The liposomal formulation employed nominally 1-gram doses, encapsulated in
phosphatidylcholine liposomes
(Livon Laboratories, Henderson, NV). The liposomal
vitamin C was subject to an external high performance liquid chromatography (HPLC:
Varian ProStar PDA) validation, which measured 1055 mg of ascorbate per (1 g) sachet.
The measured pH was 6, consistent with the fact that the liposomes contained vitamin C in
a salt form, sodium ascorbate.

So it seems to me they didn't used the sterically stabilized liposomes referred on the "Drug Transport to Brain with Targeted Liposomes" paper above. So their results can still be a guide of what can be obtained with the home made version, or so it seems to me, which is between 50-70% as good as the commercial one according to the info quoted in this thread.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Psyche said:
Regarding liposomes and the blood brain barrier, at first I thought it was tricky, mainly because of the cannabis research in brain tumors and how some researchers had trouble getting the fatty components through the BBB after a certain lipid saturation point. But poking around I find that liposomes are actually used to deliver drugs through the BBB: .........

Thanks Psyche - very interesting, I've passed this on to my friend as well. I noticed propylene glycol popped up again. In that patent ap I quoted it was used as a preservative for DHA.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

LQB said:
Laura said:
How much was he taking and for what reason and how long?

Also, there is a study that suggests that the liposomal version does cross the BBB.

At the time, he was mainly after residual HepC virus titters, but he also had much fatigue, mental fog, banged up body from years of abuse, and probably alcohol abuse effects - long list of chronic symptoms. I've been sending him diet info including links to forum threads (he read PBPM). Now I think he is essentially KD plus the supps mentioned.

I'll ask him how much he took and for how long.

In short, he had way more problems than something that taking vitamin C alone could fix. Plus, when you take it you really need to be ketogenic for optimal results as a number of things I've posted here have noted (though not all make this point).

The problem I have with your post is that you came on with a basically negative report from an individual who did not give the needed details for his conditions, the amounts he took, what his diet was while taking it, how long he took it, etc. which could be read by a naive person stumbling across this thread, needing good info, as a "don't bother, it won't help."

I'm not even sure WHY you posted that response from your friend without gathering ALL the details.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)


Report from yesterday, and this morning's experiment:

I was queasy last night after taking probably a total of 3/4 of a cup of the liposomal vitamin C in the afternoon, early evening. That would amount to 24 grams of vitamin C (real) and 120 effective.

Because we are really interested in the product crossing the BBB efficiently, I decided this morning to see if the dehydroascorbic acid would make up in solution as well. If you recall, this form of vitamin c is the one that crosses the BBB very well and also goes directly into the mitochondria. See the following links for more info and also do some searching on your own:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydroascorbic_acid
http://www.pnas.org/content/98/20/11720

So, I began with three cups of water (709 ml) and put in 9 tablespoons of ascorbic acid (126 ml). I stirred until it was dissolved.

Then I began adding sodium bicarbonate in half teaspoon increments, stirring, letting the foaming and bubbling work out from each addition before adding another. It was probably about 6 teaspoons total (or a bit more) before there was no further reaction.

Then, I took the three cups of distilled water (I'm always using distilled water here, so assume that if I don't mention it) with 9 tablespoons of lecithin granules that had been soaking in the fridge overnight, and poured it into the ultrasonic chamber followed by the 3 cups of dehydroascorbic acid I had just produced. Turned the unit on for 12 minutes. It acted exactly as the acidic vitamin C mixture, becoming creamy and slightly thickened, so I'm assuming that the process works as well with the DHA as it does with the plain ascorbic acid.

I decanted the solution into glass bottles and we sat around with the shot glass to try it. As one of us said: "That's ten times easier to swallow than the other stuff." It is true. The intense sourness is gone and it tastes more salty and nutty.

So, we decided to try to flavor it. Using PURE vanilla extract, we put in about 5 drops and it made it taste just a bit like rice milk. (We added this one drop at a time to about a cup of solution and tasted after each addition.)

Note that you cannot make it sweet because the vitamin C and sweetness vie for the same cell receptors (it may be just sugars, and not sweetness per se, but I'm not taking chances) and you don't want to put any blocks in the way of getting the fullest load of vitamin C into the cell.

Of course, after we had all played with flavoring, we had certainly ingested a goodly amount for the morning! A couple of us actually like the sour version better, but I'm thinking that the next few batches will be the DHA version.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Laura said:
LQB said:
Laura said:
How much was he taking and for what reason and how long?

Also, there is a study that suggests that the liposomal version does cross the BBB.

At the time, he was mainly after residual HepC virus titters, but he also had much fatigue, mental fog, banged up body from years of abuse, and probably alcohol abuse effects - long list of chronic symptoms. I've been sending him diet info including links to forum threads (he read PBPM). Now I think he is essentially KD plus the supps mentioned.

I'll ask him how much he took and for how long.

In short, he had way more problems than something that taking vitamin C alone could fix. Plus, when you take it you really need to be ketogenic for optimal results as a number of things I've posted here have noted (though not all make this point).

The problem I have with your post is that you came on with a basically negative report from an individual who did not give the needed details for his conditions, the amounts he took, what his diet was while taking it, how long he took it, etc. which could be read by a naive person stumbling across this thread, needing good info, as a "don't bother, it won't help."

I'm not even sure WHY you posted that response from your friend without gathering ALL the details.

Yes I see how that is misleading. If I post like this again, I'll add the qualifying details or not post the info until I have them. Thanks for the call.

I'll post the details to this one when I get them.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

LQB said:
Laura said:
How much was he taking and for what reason and how long?

Also, there is a study that suggests that the liposomal version does cross the BBB.

At the time, he was mainly after residual HepC virus titters, but he also had much fatigue, mental fog, banged up body from years of abuse, and probably alcohol abuse effects - long list of chronic symptoms. I've been sending him diet info including links to forum threads (he read PBPM). Now I think he is essentially KD plus the supps mentioned.

I'll ask him how much he took and for how long.

I talked with him on the phone a little while ago. When started on the LC he bought several hundred dollars worth of the LivOn Labs product. Because of cost he switched to making it himself using the standard recipe and increased his dose to the equivalent of 2 TBLS ascorbic acid crystals per day (in divided doses). He was at this dose for about 2 months. During this time his blood work was horrible and docs were running all kinds of bizarre (expensive) tests to try to put their finger on something. During this time he described reading an e-mail, and forgetting almost immediately what he read and the act of even reading it (pretty bad mentally).

Towards the end of this LC period, he began considering seriously the info that I was sending him from the forum and my own reading (Paleo -> KD, LWB - KD threads). He read PBPM and made big changes in his diet and added the supps he mentioned. His blood work cleared to normal and cognitive performance improved drastically.

His summary is that the LC did not help him much and that it was the diet changes (and particularly the fish oil) that brought him back.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

In short, you are saying that he was taking all of this Vitamin C without ALSO changing his diet?
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Laura said:
In short, you are saying that he was taking all of this Vitamin C without ALSO changing his diet?

Essentially, yes - that's what he said. I know that he was improving it during this time (LC) but he made the biggest changes only after reading PBPM at the end or after the LC. I think that's why he attributes the improvement to the diet and less to the LC. I know that he had cut alcohol (beer) back drastically but, reading between the lines, he may not have eliminated it until PBPM - I don't know for sure. I did mention to him that there is evidence that the LC may have much better effect with a better diet in place.
 

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