Do-it-yourself liposomal nutrients

Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Laura said:
I measured with a precise tablespoon and then weighed the amount and it is 10.67 grams.

Gimpy, I'm wondering if the issue here is partly the fat? The first day I took the liposomal vit C, I was pretty queasy but I had also had a pretty fatty meal. The two together didn't get along. Now I notice that when I take the LVC, it actually makes me feel "full" as though I have eaten fat. We are liking the liposomal ascorbate (denatured with sodium bicarbonate) much better. With a few drops of pure vanilla extract it tastes darn close to rice milk. Kind of nutty and salty.

Fat is still a hard to digest food for me, though I do take plenty of enzymes for it. Bone broth's done so much good, I hate to cut it out. So far skimming the fat down by half helps. I just peel it off the top when the broth is cold. Its tough to reduce it, as its where most of my calories come from now, and when I do get hungry, fat is what my body craves most.

I'm thinking of skimming all the fat off the bone broth as an experiment.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

L said:
This morning I decided to double the vitamin C concentration so I put 18 tablespoons in the distilled water.

If some members decide to follow the double concentration recipe, keep in mind that the shots you take will contain twice as much liposomal DHA, so you might want to reduce the volume of your shot because the optimal absorption rate (around 95%) and bowel tolerance occur when you ingest less than 5 grams of vitC per hour.

The double concentration formula leads to a 13% solution (130 grams of liposomal DHA for one liter of water). So a 5 grams shot means ingesting 38 milliliters, 3.8 cl of solution. For comparison, one table spoon is about 10 ml, so each table spoon will contain roughly 1.5 g of L-DHA.

P.S.: for the ones using the metric system, a U.S. cup is equal to 250 ml (0.25 liters)
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

I'm waiting for my ultrasonic cleaner to arrive in order to join the experiment. Looking forward to nutty rice milk-like flavor. It sounds like a traditional drink called horchata made out from chufas!

A thing that can increase your tolerance to vitamin C by a LOT is food allergies. Any condition or disease were histamine is found in high levels will increase it too. According to the papers quoted, it can take months before your body's tissues get stocked up in their vitamin C content. If you have adrenal fatigue, you will need a lot more and over several months as well before your adrenals get replenished. In fact, it might decrease the need for physiological cortisol therapy, or obviate it altogether. I'll do both for the time being.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Psyche said:
A thing that can increase your tolerance to vitamin C by a LOT is food allergies. Any condition or disease were histamine is found in high levels will increase it too. According to the papers quoted, it can take months before your body's tissues get stocked up in their vitamin C content. If you have adrenal fatigue, you will need a lot more and over several months as well before your adrenals get replenished. In fact, it might decrease the need for physiological cortisol therapy, or obviate it altogether. I'll do both for the time being.
breton said:
I find your experience quite interesting, Anart! Are you being bombarded by radiation or something?

We probably all are. I figure my body is still in healing mode, I was, after all, a vegetarian for 24 years and spent a decade on pharmaceuticals and asthma medication and all sorts of terrible stuff, as well as being a sugar addict and having two major surgeries. Who knows what that did to my liver and kidneys, though I don't present with any health problems at all at this point and I'm at the healthiest weight I've been since my early twenties. I figured it out last night and I've been on a low carb, high fat diet now for almost full two years, though I've only added bone broth for the last year, which greatly increased my fat intake. I've been on a true ketogenic diet for a year now.

Since it can take two full years to replace all the bad fats with good fats in your body, I figure I'm still in repair mode. I also currently live in an urban area that is stressful and polluted, so that likely adds a toxicity load that my body has to deal with and affects my adrenals. All in all, I'm not exactly sure why my vitamin C tolerance is so high, but it is and I know that I feel MUCH better when I drink vitamin C water all day than when I don't - no comparison, so I guess we'll see how things develop. I haven't tried the LVC yet, though I'd like to.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Has anyone used Calcium ascorbate for producing liposomal vitamin C?

I have not been able to find a good reason so far why most people on the internet prefer Sodium ascorbate to Calcium ascorbate. The Calcium ascorbate is already balanced and might obviate the need to dilute it with sodium bicarbonate.

As far a solubility in water is concerned Wikipedia states that Sodium ascorbate has a higher solubility in water:
- Calcium ascorbate: approx. 50g/ 100ml of H2O
- Sodium ascorabte: 62 g/ 100ml of H2O at 25 deg C (78 b/ 100ml at 75 deg C)
- Ascorbic acid: 33g/ 100ml
--> Is that maybe the reason for the preference of the sodium salt?

Also pH of a 10% solution is pretty similar:
- Calcium ascorbate: 6.0 - 7.5
- Sodium ascorbate: 6.5 - 8.0
- Ascorbic acid: only found numbers for 5% solution -> 3.0

The one grief I have with Calcium ascorbate is the taste - it is horribly bitter. Is that the same with the Sodium ascorbate?

Also I realised that the addition of sodium bicarbonate to ascorbic acid (until effervescence stopped) is what produces Sodium ascorbate ...
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Found an article while researching the last post that I thought I might publish here as well ...

It concerns the possible interaction of ascorbic acid in the presence or absence of lipids in the stomach with the formation of N-nitrosation (producing carcinogenic substances) ... It is an in vitro study trying to replicate the environment in the stomach, so not entirely sure this is not junk science.

As an aside there is some interesting information about nitrites in the same article ... I will only publish the "Background" and the "Discussion" and skip the "Methods" and "Results" part. The article can be downloaded freely from this webpage: _https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2095705/

Fat transforms ascorbic acid from inhibiting to promoting acid‐catalysed N‐nitrosation
E Combet, S Paterson, K Iijima, J Winter, W Mullen, A Crozier, T Preston, and K E L McColl
Gut. 2007 December; 56(12): 1678–1684.

Background

Over the last 20 years, a new pattern of gastric carcinogenesis has emerged in the western world, with a decreasing incidence of distal gastric cancer and an alarming increase in the incidence of adenocarcinomas of the proximal stomach, including cardia and adjacent gastro‐oesophageal junction (GOJ).1,2,3,4 The cancers at the GOJ usually occur in healthy acid‐secreting stomachs.5,6 The cause of the increasing incidence of adenocarcinoma of the proximal stomach remains unclear, but the rate of change indicates environmental factors.

For many years, there has been interest in the potential for endogenous generation of carcinogenic N‐nitroso compounds from nitrite within the human upper gastrointestinal tract. This is due to the fact that the acidic pH of gastric juice converts nitrite to nitrous acid and nitrosating species such as N2O3, NO+.7,8 The latter reacts with thiocyanate which is also present in gastric juice to form the particularly potent nitrosating species NOSCN.9,10,11 These nitrosating species can react with secondary amines and amides to form N‐nitroso compounds, many of which are carcinogenic and widely used in animal models of cancer.8,12,13,14,15,16 The nitrosating species N2O3 is itself mutagenic as it can directly deaminate certain DNA bases and inactivate important DNA repair enzymes.17,18,19,20,21 Understanding the factors affecting gastric nitrite chemistry is therefore relevant to our understanding the development of malignancies of the upper stomach.

The main source of nitrite entering the stomach is swallowed saliva. The high level of nitrite in saliva (100 µM under fasting conditions) is derived from the enterosalivary recirculation of dietary nitrate and its reduction to nitrite by buccal bacteria.22,23,24,25,26,27 Consequently, the nitrite level in saliva rises several fold for at least 2 h after ingesting nitrate‐containing foodstuffs. The nitrite concentration in the distal oesophagus is similar to that in saliva.28

A major factor protecting against the generation of N‐nitroso compounds from salivary nitrite on entering the acidic stomach is ascorbic acid present in gastric juice.29,30,31,32,33 Ascorbic acid is actively secreted in gastric juice and effectively competes with secondary amines and amides for reaction with the nitrosating species.32,34,35,36,37,38 In this reaction, the nitrosating species are reduced to nitric oxide and the ascorbic acid oxidised to dehydroascorbic acid.39 We and others have recently demonstrated that high concentrations of nitric oxide are generated in the human upper gastrointestinal tract following nitrate intake by the above mechanism.40

This reduction of acidified nitrite to nitric oxide has been regarded as an effective mechanism for protecting against the generation of N‐nitroso compounds. However, it has recently been recognised that nitric oxide can generate nitrosating species. This arises from the ability of nitric oxide to react with molecular oxygen to form N2O3 – the same species formed by acidification of nitrite.18,41,42 The rate of the reaction between nitric oxide and oxygen to produce N2O3 is proportional to the concentration of oxygen and to the square of nitric oxide concentration.43,44 Consequently, this reaction is most important at high nitric oxide concentrations.

Recent studies have also demonstrated that the reaction between nitric oxide and oxygen is 300 times faster within lipid than within an aqueous phase.41 This is due to the fact that nitric oxide is nine times more soluble in lipid, and oxygen is also more soluble in lipid than aqueous solutions, resulting in both reactants accumulating in the lipid compartment.41 The potential for generation of nitrosating species from nitric oxide will therefore be greatest when high concentrations of nitric oxide are generated close to lipids.

The above chemistry raises the possibility that inhibition of nitrosation reactions by ascorbic acid in the aqueous phase may promote nitrosation within adjacent lipid compartments. This could occur by diffusion of the nitric oxide produced by the reaction between acidified nitrite and ascorbic acid, into adjacent lipid compartments and their reacting with oxygen to form the nitrosating species N2O3. The presence of lipid might therefore have a profound effect on the chemistry occurring between acidified nitrite and ascorbic acid.

We have demonstrated that luminal nitrosative chemistry in the acid‐secreting stomach is maximal where swallowed saliva first encounters acidic gastric juice and may therefore be contributing to the high incidence of metaplasia and neoplasia in the proximal stomach and GOJ.28,40 The aim of this study was to investigate the influence of lipids on this luminal nitrosative chemistry.

[...]

Discussion

These studies indicate that the presence of lipid profoundly alters acid‐catalysed nitrosative chemistry. The lipid phase is able to convert the influence of ascorbic acid from one that protects against nitrosation to one that promotes it. This effect is likely to be due to the ability of the nitric oxide formed by ascorbic acid within the aqueous phase to regenerate nitrosative species by reacting with oxygen within the lipid phase.

In the studies performed without lipid, and without ascorbic acid, the addition of nitrite to the HCl pH 1.5 containing thiocyanate resulted in nitrosation of the secondary amines. The main nitrosating species formed under these conditions is NOSCN.9,10,11 NOSCN reacts with the secondary amine in its unprotonated uncharged state.48 The amount of the secondary amine in its nitrosatable form depends upon its −log dissociation constant (pKa). The pKa values of the amines studied are 8.33 for morpholine, 11.22 for piperidine, 10.73 for dimethyamine and 11.09 for diethylamine. The amount of the secondary amine in a form available for nitrosation by NOSCN will therefore be greatest for morpholine and least for piperidine. The differences in pKa can partially explain why different concentrations of the four N‐nitrosamines were generated.

In the experiments performed in the absence of lipid, the addition of ascorbic acid effectively prevented the nitrosation of the amines. This can be explained by the ascorbic acid competing with the secondary amines for the NOSCN.36,38,49 In the reaction between ascorbic acid and NOSCN, the latter is reduced to nitric oxide and the former oxidised to dehydroascorbic acid. Consistent with this, we observed a burst of nitric oxide accompanied by a fall in the ascorbic acid and oxygen concentrations. This can be explained by the nitric oxide reacting with dissolved oxygen to form N2O3.43,44 The N2O3 formed in this way is a nitrosating species and again preferentially reacts with ascorbic acid and is reduced back to nitric oxide.39 This recycling continues until either the oxygen or the ascorbic acid is consumed. Under our experimental conditions, the oxygen was the first to be depleted. Stoichemically, 1 mol ascorbic acid can reduce 2 mol nitrite to nitric oxide. The greater consumption of ascorbic acid observed is due to this recycling of nitric oxide.

In the presence of the lipid, N‐nitrosamines were formed despite the presence of ascorbic acid. Indeed, the presence of lipid transformed the effect of the ascorbic acid from effectively inhibiting nitrosation of each amine to powerfully enhancing nitrosation of three of the four amines. (The overall amounts of NDMA, NDEA and NPIP in the system were increased by 8‐, 60‐ and 140‐fold, respectively, in the dual‐phase system when ascorbic acid was present versus absent; fig 3​3.).) The overall amount of NMOR formation was inhibited by ascorbic acid in both the absence and presence of lipid, although the inhibitory effect of ascorbic acid was markedly reduced by the presence of lipid, from over 1000‐fold in absence of lipid, to only threefold in the presence of lipids. In addition, the presence of ascorbic acid increased the concentration of NMOR in the lipid from undetectable to 4.9±0.4 µM.

What is the explanation for the ability of the lipid to convert the effect of the ascorbic acid from being an inhibitor to a promoter of nitrosation? The effect observed is likely to be mediated by the nitric oxide produced by the reaction between the ascorbic acid and the nitrosating species within the aqueous phase. The nitric oxide will diffuse into to the lipid phase and within it react with oxygen to form N2O3.50 Liu et al. demonstrated that the reaction between nitric oxide and oxygen is 300 times faster in lipid than in aqueous solutions, due to the increased solubility of both gases in lipids.41 As ascorbic acid is not lipophilic, it is unable to enter the lipid and thus the N2O3 generated within the lipid will be able to nitrosate the secondary amines within the lipid. The N‐nitrosamines generated within the lipid in this way will then diffuse out of the lipid and produce the rise in their concentration observed in the aqueous compartment (fig 5​5).

[...]

In the dual‐phase studies without ascorbic acid, low concentrations of NDMA and NPIP were detected in the lipid phase, whereas NDEA and NMOR were both undetectable in the lipid phase. NDMA and NPIP are more lipid soluble than NMOR (ClogP 0.01, 0.73 and −0.33, respectively) and are likely to have diffused into the lipid following their generation in the aqueous phase. Low levels of nitric oxide are present in the aqueous phase even in the absence of ascorbic acid and this may also have nitrosated dimethylamine and piperidine within the lipid phase. The dual‐phase experiments with ascorbic acid indicated that dimethylamine and piperidine were the amines most nitrosated by nitric oxide in the lipid phase. Piperidine showed the greatest degree of nitrosation in the dual phase; this may be due to its lipophilicity (ClogP 0.52) and thus it is the one most available for nitrosation within the lipid compartment.51

In the dual‐phase system, the concentrations of three of the N‐nitrosamines detected in the aqueous phase were significantly greater in the presence versus absence of ascorbic acid. The one exception was NMOR and a number of factors may explain this. First, the amount of NMOR formed in the aqueous phase in the absence of ascorbic acid is considerably greater than the amount of other N‐nitrosamines, due to its lower pKa and thus higher proportion in the nitrosatable unprotonated form.52 Second, the aqueous concentrations of each N‐nitrosamine were similar in presence of both ascorbic acid and lipid compared to aqueous concentrations in the absence of ascorbic acid (table 2​2).). This is because the N‐nitrosamines detected in the aqueous phase in presence of both ascorbic acid and lipid will have been formed mainly in the lipid phase, where the pKa of the amine is not relevant. The decrease of NMOR aqueous concentration in the dual‐phase system in presence of ascorbic acid compared to when ascorbic acid is absent is therefore mainly explained by the inhibition of the aqueous nitrosation of morpholine when ascorbic acid is present. In addition, differences in partitioning of the different amines and N‐nitrosamines between the lipid and aqueous phase may contribute to the different results.

The above studies indicate that the presence of lipid transforms the regulation of nitrosative chemistry in conditions simulating the proximal stomach. The presence of lipid overcomes the protective effect of ascorbic acid and indeed transforms ascorbic acid from an inhibitor to a promoter of nitrosation. The transforming role of lipids is likely to be relevant to the in vivo situation as lipid is present in the proximal stomach for a considerable time after eating and is also an important component of the epithelial membranes.

Not sure how relevant this is to the discussion ... not sure there is anything that can be done about it - if this really is a relevant mechanism. Maybe increasing the dose of vitamin C (especially in its liposomal form) may counter this mechanism somewhat by increasing the vitamin C available in lipid layers.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Belibaste said:
L said:
This morning I decided to double the vitamin C concentration so I put 18 tablespoons in the distilled water.

If some members decide to follow the double concentration recipe, keep in mind that the shots you take will contain twice as much liposomal DHA, so you might want to reduce the volume of your shot because the optimal absorption rate (around 95%) and bowel tolerance occur when you ingest less than 5 grams of vitC per hour.

The double concentration formula leads to a 13% solution (130 grams of liposomal DHA for one liter of water). So a 5 grams shot means ingesting 38 milliliters, 3.8 cl of solution. For comparison, one table spoon is about 10 ml, so each table spoon will contain roughly 1.5 g of L-DHA.

P.S.: for the ones using the metric system, a U.S. cup is equal to 250 ml (0.25 liters)

I might be wrong about this, but I don't think what you guys are taking is DHA. In order for ascorbic acid to become DHA it needs an oxidizing agent like H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide). I didn't see any mention of hydrogen peroxide in Laura's descriptions, but I may have just missed it. Ascorbic acid plus sodium bicarbonate makes sodium ascorbate, not DHA.
OSIT
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

dugdeep said:
Belibaste said:
L said:
This morning I decided to double the vitamin C concentration so I put 18 tablespoons in the distilled water.

If some members decide to follow the double concentration recipe, keep in mind that the shots you take will contain twice as much liposomal DHA, so you might want to reduce the volume of your shot because the optimal absorption rate (around 95%) and bowel tolerance occur when you ingest less than 5 grams of vitC per hour.

The double concentration formula leads to a 13% solution (130 grams of liposomal DHA for one liter of water). So a 5 grams shot means ingesting 38 milliliters, 3.8 cl of solution. For comparison, one table spoon is about 10 ml, so each table spoon will contain roughly 1.5 g of L-DHA.

P.S.: for the ones using the metric system, a U.S. cup is equal to 250 ml (0.25 liters)

I might be wrong about this, but I don't think what you guys are taking is DHA. In order for ascorbic acid to become DHA it needs an oxidizing agent like H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide). I didn't see any mention of hydrogen peroxide in Laura's descriptions, but I may have just missed it. Ascorbic acid plus sodium bicarbonate makes sodium ascorbate, not DHA.
OSIT

Yep, Laura acknowledged that in this post (http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,13208.msg393164.html#msg393164) in response to Data.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Psyche said:
I'm waiting for my ultrasonic cleaner to arrive in order to join the experiment. Looking forward to nutty rice milk-like flavor. It sounds like a traditional drink called horchata made out from chufas!

A thing that can increase your tolerance to vitamin C by a LOT is food allergies. Any condition or disease were histamine is found in high levels will increase it too. According to the papers quoted, it can take months before your body's tissues get stocked up in their vitamin C content. If you have adrenal fatigue, you will need a lot more and over several months as well before your adrenals get replenished. In fact, it might decrease the need for physiological cortisol therapy, or obviate it altogether. I'll do both for the time being.


I'm starting to wonder if taking antihistamines could contribute to intolerance of high dose vitamin C?

On average, I'm still taking 75 mg of otc antihistamines a day (to avoid asthma attacks re the dog and cleaning)

I'm going to give things a rest one more day and restart the LC tomorrow, almost have my latest two batches of bone broth skimmed down of fat.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Just FYI for anyone in Toronto - the Big Carrot on the Danforth now carries liposmal vitamin C (same stuff found here). I had a chance to try it today and, boy oh boy, that stuff does not taste good! My stomach felt a little bit off afterwards, too, but it seemed to go away after 20 minutes or so. I have a feeling that if I was doing it regularly I'd get used to it, though.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

dugdeep said:
Just FYI for anyone in Toronto - the Big Carrot on the Danforth now carries liposmal vitamin C (same stuff found here). I had a chance to try it today and, boy oh boy, that stuff does not taste good! My stomach felt a little bit off afterwards, too, but it seemed to go away after 20 minutes or so. I have a feeling that if I was doing it regularly I'd get used to it, though.

Yeah, I got some of that too. It's too pricey for all of us to experiment with it and you are right, it tastes like some cosmetic product or other.

The batch I made yesterday of the liposomal sodium ascorbate was really good. I stopped adding the baking soda when the reaction had slowed down a lot, but did not add until it stopped entirely. That makes it less salty.

Then, I processed it in the ultrasonic chamber for about 20 minutes - a little longer than usual - and after sitting in the fridge overnight, there is no sedimentation at all, so it seems to all go into suspension.

Being very concentrated, you only need to take a shot glass two or three times a day.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

I made my first batch of LVC the other day. I used a bit of baking soda in the mix. It turned out well, very evenly distributed and no sedimentation even after sitting in the fridge for a couple of days. The taste is another matter altogether. I've started calling it my "yuck juice".

I'm thinking of experimenting with a resveratrol, C, and curcumin mix like this: _http://www.pdazzler.com/archives/1005.
Though it's hard to find straight up curcumin, I mostly just see turmeric (as curcumin is the active ingredient in turmeric). I also wonder if grape seed extract can be used in place of resveratrol.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

Gimpy said:
Received this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007DZLZVS/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00

Tried a teaspoon of it yesterday, waited 20 minutes, then ate lunch. No belly rumbles with that amount so far. I'm going to try a teaspoon this morning and again at lunch and see how it goes.

The other brand in the packets seems to be too harsh.

Both products have a little ethyl alcohol. The LivOn Labs one has 12% alcohol according to one amazon reviewer. We're experimenting with both right now too.
 
Re: Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

LQB said:
Gimpy said:
Received this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007DZLZVS/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00

Tried a teaspoon of it yesterday, waited 20 minutes, then ate lunch. No belly rumbles with that amount so far. I'm going to try a teaspoon this morning and again at lunch and see how it goes.

The other brand in the packets seems to be too harsh.

Both products have a little ethyl alcohol. The LivOn Labs one has 12% alcohol according to one amazon reviewer. We're experimenting with both right now too.

I received my order a few days ago of the LivOn Labs product - I haven't experienced any belly rumbles, etc. either but I think the direction to take on an empty stomach is note worthy. It made me feel like I'd had a cup of bone broth.
 

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