Éiriú-Eolas - Breathing Program

Bud said:
...
So, what I do instead is just take all the feelings that have accumulated within me in the course of the day and just direct my attention to Universe, asking nothing more than for Universe to interpret and accept expression from my innermost being. After doing that, I have occasionally experienced troubling dreams or fitful sleep, but upon awakening, I have felt such emotional lightness and mental clarity that I can get chill bumps just from feeling alive!

That seems to work for me. :)

Thank you Bud for sharing your process, which I found very creative and useful. It appears that you are using the wanting to pray for someone else as a tool to reflect on yourself and thus work on yourself.

Oxajil said:
I also want to add something to those who think of praying as determining the needs of another. What if you pray for yourself?

When you pray for yourself, you are not violating anybody else's free will and that IMO is the key difference. This does not mean that we ourselves know what our true needs are when we pray, but again it does not violate our own free will.
 
Is a pattern beginning to develop? Once again this week, I managed to zone out for a considerable period of time on Monday –same time as last week. Weird, otherwise, E-Ewise, there is nothing much to report.

Aeneas said:
When you pray for yourself, you are not violating anybody else's free will and that IMO is the key difference. This does not mean that we ourselves know what our true needs are when we pray, but again it does not violate our own free will.

I go along with that statement completely.
 
Aeneas said:
When you pray for yourself, you are not violating anybody else's free will and that IMO is the key difference. This does not mean that we ourselves know what our true needs are when we pray, but again it does not violate our own free will.

How can I violate the free will of another when I pray for that person's let's say protection while at the same time stay open about that person not needing that protection? It's the same when you pray for yourself.

Edit: You could be right though... I don't know. I think it's a good idea to ask permission first. As long as you stay open when you pray and you pray from the heart, with no anticipation, ...I think that's the most important.
 
Oxajil said:
If I would see my (little) brother having an accident and he is lying in the hospital, I ask DCM to be with him. It is mostly a comfort for me, to have the feeling that he is not alone. So yes, it could be selfish. But I don't think I am violating any free will, for I always open up the possibility that perhaps he doesn't need that etc. I have faith in DCM to decide what She thinks is best.

Hi Oxajil,
If someone close to me had an accident and were in hospital then I would still ask if they wished for me to put my hands on them or pray for them. That would give them the possibility of saying yes or no. If they were in a coma or drugged out, then I would probably just sit there and be present with them and perhaps hold their hand. If I could not be present due to distance and they were unable to communicate, then I would probably just sit still and hold them in my heart, instead of fueling the mind with worries. I say probably as each situation is different. As an aside, I have been exposed to numerous situations, including situations where the person was in a coma, so it is not idle theorizing. This does not however make me right on this issue.

You say that you would ask DCM to be with them. I have perhaps a different concept of DCM as I take that for granted. To me there is not a place where the DCM is not.

Oxajil said:
Aeneas said:
When you pray for yourself, you are not violating anybody else's free will and that IMO is the key difference. This does not mean that we ourselves know what our true needs are when we pray, but again it does not violate our own free will.

How can I violate the free will of another when I pray for that person's let's say protection while at the same time stay open about that person not needing that protection? It's the same when you pray for yourself.

It does not give the other the possibility to say yes or no. When you pray for yourself, you have obviously given permission for that.

Oxajil said:
Edit: You could be right though... I don't know. I think it's a good idea to ask permission first.

As long as you stay open when you pray and you pray from the heart, with no anticipation, ...I think that's the most important.

I don't quite understand the above. It sounds as though you agree that it is a good idea to ask permission first, but that you will still continue to do as always and pray with an open heart as you consider that more important than asking permission. Am I missing something here?
 
Aeneas said:
Hi Oxajil,
If someone close to me had an accident and were in hospital then I would still ask if they wished for me to put my hands on them or pray for them. That would give them the possibility of saying yes or no. If they were in a coma or drugged out, then I would probably just sit there and be present with them and perhaps hold their hand. If I could not be present due to distance and they were unable to communicate, then I would probably just sit still and hold them in my heart, instead of fueling the mind with worries. I say probably as each situation is different. As an aside, I have been exposed to numerous situations, including situations where the person was in a coma, so it is not idle theorizing. This does not however make me right on this issue.

I think everyone handles a situation different. What if they don't want you there and they don't want you to hold their hand? It's the same thing. What if they don't want you to hold them in your heart? What's the difference between that and holding them in your prayers?

Aeneas said:
You say that you would ask DCM to be with them. I have perhaps a different concept of DCM as I take that for granted. To me there is not a place where the DCM is not.

I agree. That's just a way how I pray. It doesn't mean I think DCM can't be anywhere, I guess you could say it's some kind of a comfort when I say that. It's a way for me to ask Her to keep an "extra eye" on that person. If she sees fit, if that person needs it and if there is such a thing as an "extra eye".

Aeneas said:
It does not give the other the possibility to say yes or no. When you pray for yourself, you have obviously given permission for that.

I don't quite understand the above. It sounds as though you agree that it is a good idea to ask permission first, but that you will still continue to do as always and pray with an open heart as you consider that more important than asking permission. Am I missing something here?

Yes, in my opinion and in my experience, it is okay to pray for someone else without their permission, simply because I Pray with an open mind that my prayers can have or will not have an effect (not for me to decide) and that I wish and have faith in DCM, knowing that She knows how things "should" go, and that I have no right or "power" to violate that person's free will by doing this. If you don't feel this way, then it's better to ask permission. This doesn't mean I don't ask permission, sometimes I do. I see praying more as something that's fun to do. Because I like talking to DCM.

In the end, it seems to me, that you should mostly pray for yourself. I pray for others when I naturally feel that way, So I kind of follow my heart and I have faith in the Universe to decide what She wants to do with my prayers. I don't have any fixed desires, I always stay open and accept Her decision. You could say it's a way of expressing my feelings and thoughts, and they could always be subjective. Therefore, my openness.
 
Yesterday, after EE during meditation it felt as if there is lightning storm outside (purple light flashes).

Ended up with "prophetic" dream, where my car was stalling, and I had to pull over, take engine apart, clean it & overhaul emission system.

Driving to work today, I had check engine light come up, indicating emission problems: Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold. Heheheh :p
 
Hi Oxajil, I've been reading your responses in the current discussion of prayer with great interest as it is a subject close to my heart. I would like to share some observations of things you have recently written. Needless to say these observations may or may not be accurate, so, as always . . . fwiw

Oxajil said:
Yes, in my opinion

Opinion is not objective knowledge. It is in fact completely subjective. Have you read the forum thread on Opinions? I think you will find it very interesting, especially this post and this post. In the latter post Laura quotes some very interesting and pertinent excerpts from In Search of the Miraculous.

Oxajil said:
and in my experience, it is okay to pray for someone else without their permission

I think that the negative aspects of praying for others without their permission do not necessarily show up right away. Perhaps these aspects cannot be seen while we are in third density bodies. Perhaps it is that way intentionally, as a means to keep us generating more food for the STS types, while thinking we are doing something worthy.

Oxajil said:
simply because I Pray with an open mind that my prayers can have or will not have an effect (not for me to decide) and I wish and have faith in DCM, knowing that She knows how things "should" go

If you have faith that the DCM knows how things should go, why do you pray for others? DCM already knows what is best for them. It doesn't seem very logical to me. I think it is better to nourish this faith in the DCM in yourself then you will have faith that others are experiencing the life lessons that are correct for them, and you will naturally give them the freedom to experience those lessons according to their level of consciousness.

I think this issue of freedom is rather important here. Praying for another is to have some kind of idea that you know what they want or need, even if you think that what they want or need is for you to pray for them, and even if your prayer is open. This is not giving them freedom in your own mind. I understand that you want to do something for them but giving freedom to others is more important that praying for them unasked, osit. The type of faith I described does give that freedom, and it allows you to acknowledge and support them in their life path, because you understand that they are in the right place at the right time having the right experience for their life's journey.

Oxajil said:
. . . She knows how things "should" go and that I have no right or "power" to violate that person's free will by doing this.

I don't quite understand what you mean here. Do you mean to say that you ask the DCM that your prayers do not violate the other's free will? We occupy a free will universe, where violation of another's free will is neither encouraged nor prohibited by the 'rules of the game', but it is certainly allowed. I don't think that the DCM takes individual notice of our prayers in that way.

My impression is that you want to be free to follow your feelings, your heart, and rely on an outside power to be your 'policeman', making sure that these prayers do not negatively affect others. I think, and I could be completely wrong here, that there is a very scared little child deep inside. That child is very sensitive to the sufferings of others, and wants mummy or daddy, in the guise of the DCM, to stop others from hurting. Again, that assessment could be way off, and is only given as a speculative observation.

Oxajil said:
If you don't feel this way, then it's better to ask permission.

One should always ask permission.

Oxajil said:
In the end, it seems to me, that you should mostly pray for yourself.

I agree. And only pray for others if you have their permission.

Oxajil said:
I pray for others when I naturally feel that way, So I kind of follow my heart

'Naturally feeling' may actually be chemicals and hormones running around in your body and brain, released when certain childhood programs are triggered. You mentioned that you are a fearful person. I think that working on that fear, trying to find the root of it, would be something important to try.

Oxajil said:
and I have faith in the Universe to decide what She wants to do with my prayers.

I think this is a self-calming rationalization which allows you to pray for others while the DCM takes care of the details. But you know what lurks in the details! You mentioned in an earlier post that praying was comforting for you. What would happen if you did not pray for others, but gave them, in your mind, the freedom to be themselves, unmolested, so to speak?
 
Aragorn said:
Bud, I guess I'm just too "dense", but would it be possible for you to explain all that in a more simple way? I would like to understand your procedure that you describe, but right now I couldn't quite understand it. :(

Sure, and after reading, if you still need clarification of any particular thing, just ask and I will attempt to explain further.


Bud said:
Fwiw, I can relate to anyone who feels that urge to pray for someone. Here's how I deal with it: When I think of someone who is going through a trying time and my desire to pray for them is active, I try to look very closely at that gap between what I see of them and what I'm feeling an urge to do for them if they have not asked.

That gap is a very important place. You could even meditate on it. You could even experiment; think about and notice what happens as your thoughts slowly shift from what you are thinking about another person to your actual doing something (praying for them or whatever) when there is no corresponding awareness of what you're doing from the recipient.

Here, I'm really making the effort to focus on the way I mentally create the idea of the person I'm wanting to pray for and how I make the connection to the action of doing it. I watch myself as I would normally make the decision to pray for them. The space between the two (thinking about it and then doing it) is where I'm focused. The question for me is: what is involved in 'changing' from a state of mere mental internal considering to actually engaging the motor center to run the 'pray for someone' routine.

There is a gap there that is usually bridged by a justification or rationalization (buffer) of some kind that links back to the self.


Bud said:
What was used for making the bridge? For me, it is sometimes difficult to see that I am editing out the fact that this process of trying to bridge that gap just knocks my energy for a loop, setting up a self-referencing feedback loop that really benefits me by making me feel better or relieving me of some internal pressure.

Here, I'm just meaning this: There is a gap there that is usually bridged by a justification or rationalization (buffer) of some kind that links back to the self. What I am editing out is the full context realization of what internal consideration really means. I'm just fooling myself.


Bud said:
It also reinforces the illusion of separateness and that could be meditated on as well, OSIT.

Here I'm referring to the idea that it is the roles we play while having a false personality and living in the illusions of sleep that encourage us to believe we are all so separate from each other and from the Universe that it is necessary or even possible to deliberately send healing energy (prayer) to someone or on someone's behalf from the position of our own considerations. Somewhat as if the process were like loading a boxcar full of logs attached to a train which is on a track and 'sending it off down the line', otherwise the person might continue to suffer and that suffering would be 'bad' for them.


Bud said:
So, what I do instead is just take all the feelings that have accumulated within me in the course of the day and just direct my attention to Universe, asking nothing more than for Universe to interpret and accept expression from my innermost being. After doing that, I have occasionally experienced troubling dreams or fitful sleep, but upon awakening, I have felt such emotional lightness and mental clarity that I can get chill bumps just from feeling alive!

That seems to work for me. :)

What I mean here is that when I feel hurt and pain deep down inside from seeing all the pain and suffering and it becomes too much for me to bear and that it feels like I really need some relief (and it may not actually be daily - sometimes weekly or longer), I put both feet on the floor, breathe deeply and just allow myself to experience whatever is inside while turning my attention to DCM or Universe. The feeling is one of 'reaching' with the emotions or offering energy in exchange for knowledge, or however it makes sense to you. I don't anticipate any particular result, I just try to feel a 'connection' to something 'higher', OSIT.
 
This discussion on praying eventually comes down to your intent.

There is nothing wrong with praying for others, it's complete nonsens that one would have to ask for permission first to pray for someone, what is your intent on praying for others is what the question should be.

What is your INTENT on praying for others?

Praying is just that, it's praying. it's nothing more and nothing less.
 
Endymion said:
Opinion is not objective knowledge. It is in fact completely subjective. Have you read the forum thread on Opinions? I think you will find it very interesting, especially this post and this post. In the latter post Laura quotes some very interesting and pertinent excerpts from In Search of the Miraculous.

Yes I have read them. My opinions are always open to change.

Endymion said:
I think that the negative aspects of praying for others without their permission do not necessarily show up right away. Perhaps these aspects cannot be seen while we are in third density bodies. Perhaps it is that way intentionally, as a means to keep us generating more food for the STS types, while thinking we are doing something worthy.

I don't think I am doing something worthy per se. To me it is like eating, or breathing, it goes how it goes. I don't anticipate in the process. I do see where you're coming from though, and you could be right, but I think it will become food for STS forces if you become obsessed with it. Or if you have a fixed belief in how things should be, and You want to make it happen by praying.

Endymion said:
If you have faith that the DCM knows how things should go, why do you pray for others?

Sometimes because I think it's fun to do (I usually ask permission then) and mostly because it gives me hope. And I kind of need it, perhaps I won't need to do it the more I grow. I have noticed I have been praying less in the last few years. And maaaybe my praying will naturally add some kind of energy to the process of dealing with certain challenges (again as DCM sees fit), but when I pray for such things, I ask permission. It really depends on what I want to pray for and for who it is.

Endymion said:
DCM already knows what is best for them. It doesn't seem very logical to me. I think it is better to nourish this faith in the DCM in yourself then you will have faith that others are experiencing the life lessons that are correct for them, and you will naturally give them the freedom to experience those lessons according to their level of consciousness.

Very true.

Endymion said:
I think this issue of freedom is rather important here. Praying for another is to have some kind of idea that you know what they want or need, even if you think that what they want or need is for you to pray for them, and even if your prayer is open. This is not giving them freedom in your own mind. I understand that you want to do something for them but giving freedom to others is more important that praying for them unasked, osit. The type of faith I described does give that freedom, and it allows you to acknowledge and support them in their life path, because you understand that they are in the right place at the right time having the right experience for their life's journey.

I do give freedom, I think. I merely ask if DCM can give that person some kind of "push" if She sees fit.

Endymion said:
I don't quite understand what you mean here. Do you mean to say that you ask the DCM that your prayers do not violate the other's free will? We occupy a free will universe, where violation of another's free will is neither encouraged nor prohibited by the 'rules of the game', but it is certainly allowed. I don't think that the DCM takes individual notice of our prayers in that way.

Maybe She does.

Endymion said:
My impression is that you want to be free to follow your feelings, your heart, and rely on an outside power to be your 'policeman', making sure that these prayers do not negatively affect others.

How can a prayer negatively affect others? (not saying it can't, but I'm interested in how you think a prayer can do this?)

Endymion said:
I think, and I could be completely wrong here, that there is a very scared little child deep inside. That child is very sensitive to the sufferings of others, and wants mummy or daddy, in the guise of the DCM, to stop others from hurting. Again, that assessment could be way off, and is only given as a speculative observation.

I am very scared, yes. And alone, too, I needed DCM a LOT when I was young and only in the last few years have I been able to be more independent. DCM has been a very important figure in my life and I feel like I can ask anything from Her, but I realise more and more that I don't need to ask many things, that I can get those things myself you know? So I think what y'all say makes a lot of sense, but I'm still fearful, I still need that protection over me and over those I love. I still fully have faith in DCM that everything will go how it will go, but I simply need to say my prayers to give Hope to myself, to give myself that kind of strength (of being free of fears) I can't fully give myself (but I'm slowly learning to!). As I said it's a way I express certain feelings and thoughts.

Endymion said:
One should always ask permission.

Maybe.

Endymion said:
'Naturally feeling' may actually be chemicals and hormones running around in your body and brain, released when certain childhood programs are triggered. You mentioned that you are a fearful person. I think that working on that fear, trying to find the root of it, would be something important to try.

Yes, and I've been doing that since I started the Work and have discovered quite some things along the way, I'm still in process. When I fully understand and overcome those fears, I will be able to "let DCM Be" and be more independent and not afraid.

Endymion said:
I think this is a self-calming rationalization which allows you to pray for others while the DCM takes care of the details. But you know what lurks in the details! You mentioned in an earlier post that praying was comforting for you. What would happen if you did not pray for others, but gave them, in your mind, the freedom to be themselves, unmolested, so to speak?

That would be interesting to try out!
 
Oxajil said:
I am very scared, yes.
And alone, too, I needed DCM a LOT when I was young and only in the last few years have I been able to be more independent. DCM has been a very important figure in my life and I feel like I can ask anything from Her, but I realise more and more that I don't need to ask many things, that I can get those things myself you know? So I think what y'all say makes a lot of sense, but I'm still fearful, I still need that protection over me and over those I love. I still fully have faith in DCM that everything will go how it will go, but I simply need to say my prayers to give Hope to myself, to give myself that kind of strength (of being free of fears) I can't fully give myself (but I'm slowly learning to!). As I said it's a way I express certain feelings and thoughts.

What are you afraid of?
 
Ana said:
Oxajil said:
I am very scared, yes.
And alone, too, I needed DCM a LOT when I was young and only in the last few years have I been able to be more independent. DCM has been a very important figure in my life and I feel like I can ask anything from Her, but I realise more and more that I don't need to ask many things, that I can get those things myself you know? So I think what y'all say makes a lot of sense, but I'm still fearful, I still need that protection over me and over those I love. I still fully have faith in DCM that everything will go how it will go, but I simply need to say my prayers to give Hope to myself, to give myself that kind of strength (of being free of fears) I can't fully give myself (but I'm slowly learning to!). As I said it's a way I express certain feelings and thoughts.

What are you afraid of?

I'm afraid of getting hurt and afraid of others getting hurt. And when I say hurt, I mean mostly physically hurt. That's my main fear.
 
Bo said:
This discussion on praying eventually comes down to your intent.

There is nothing wrong with praying for others, it's complete nonsens that one would have to ask for permission first to pray for someone, what is your intent on praying for others is what the question should be.

What is your INTENT on praying for others?

Praying is just that, it's praying. it's nothing more and nothing less.

Perhaps it is as simple as that. Perhaps one might also find it useful to understand what lies within the area referred to as: "eventually comes down to..."? Just wondering.

Gurdjieff has a few useful ideas on the subject as well, OSIT:

"The prayer of subjective man, that is, of man number one, number two, and number three, can give only subjective results, namely, self-consolation, self-suggestion, self-hypnosis. It cannot give objective results."

"But cannot prayer in general give objective results?" asked one of those present.

"I have already said, it depends upon whose prayer," G. replied.

"One must learn to pray, just as one must learn everything else. Whoever knows how to pray and is able to concentrate in the proper way, his prayer can give results. But it must be understood that there are different prayers and that their results are different.
ISOTM, 307


When G. went to Moscow our permanent group met without him. There remain in my memory several talks in our group which were connected with what we had recently heard from G. We had many talks about the idea of miracles, and about the fact that the Absolute cannot manifest its will in our world and that this will manifests itself only in the form of mechanical laws and cannot manifest itself by violating these laws.

I do not remember which of us was first to remember a well-known, though not very respectful school story, in which we at once saw an illustration of this law.

The story is about an over-aged student of a seminary who, at a final examination, does not understand the idea of God's omnipotence.

'Well, give me an example of something that the Lord cannot do," said the examining bishop.

"It won't take long to do that, your Eminence," answered the seminarist. "Everyone knows that even the Lord himself cannot beat the ace of trumps with the ordinary deuce."

Nothing could be more clear.

There was more sense in this silly story than in a thousand theological treatises. The laws of a game make the essence of the game. A violation of these laws would destroy the entire game. The Absolute can as little interfere in our life and substitute other results in the place of the natural results of causes created by us, or created accidentally, as he can beat the ace of trumps with the deuce.

Turgenev wrote somewhere that all ordinary prayers can be reduced to one: "Lord, make it so that twice two be not four." This is the same thing as the ace of trumps of the seminarist.
ISOTM, 101, 102
 
Bud said:
Aragorn said:
Bud, I guess I'm just too "dense", but would it be possible for you to explain all that in a more simple way? I would like to understand your procedure that you describe, but right now I couldn't quite understand it. :(

Sure, and after reading, if you still need clarification of any particular thing, just ask and I will attempt to explain further.

Thanks for re-explaining things Bud, I think I got it now. :)
 
This discussion of permission and prayer has elicited a couple of questions:

Our prayers must be very powerful if we must ask permission of the person for whom we pray. Is there that much power within me?

If I see something that is blocking someone's progress and I pray for that impediment to be lifted, is it possible that what I see as an impediment is actually a form of protection for that person?
 
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