Experiment with the spirit board -lies coming through it & how to recognize them

solarmind said:
Andromeda, if you think it is better for your comunity to ban me, go for it. If that si how i can contribute, as you don't see that i am contributing any how right now, it will be my pleasure to finly give somehing valuable to you guys as i did learn a lot from you. Absurd how it is, but that is how it goes. I maight feel sad for that, and i don't see a point in that threth to me, but "who cares", you "checked me out" i am not of any use, so lets trash her. This is very STO oriented ... :(

It's has nothing to do with being STO or not STO. You don't even understand that concept and yet you think you are able to use it to make a point. This highlights, again, the core problem here: you don't know enough to know what you are talking about.

Yet, despite that this has been said to you more than once, you don't seem to understand the appropriate thing to do, which has also been spelled out to you: read more, learn more, and STOP talking!

Imagine an art student that comes into a math class and thinks they know all about math because they have decided that art is very similar to math in many ways, and then starts talking about their theory and 'understanding'. The math students will scratch their heads, try to point out the errors, and appeal to the art student to learn about math if they want to discuss it. But the art student insists that they know what they are talking about, that they understand math, and won't accept the fact that they can't even discuss what they don't know because they don't know anything about it.

This analogy describes, more or less, what you are doing.

I could even quote your own words to you as an example of your inability to do what you intellectually agree you should do, but emotionally seem unable TO do.

[quote author=solarmind]"agree i need to do quite more research before coming to any conclusions related to the work done here"[/quote]
 
Perceval - yes totally agree, thank you - I feel like 5 year old kid who needs to be told 10 times the same thing, before he hurt himself and others. I need to be kick on to the corner, and "threaten" to lose people I respect, before I stop doing mess ... :( ...

That can be "charming" and adrenalin push in every day programmed world of boring ignorance, to behave like public clown, to cheer up people with simple jokes etc ... what is part of my every day work that feeds my family, and that I am getting tired of, as it is nothing more than useless entertaining tricks just to spark a bits of truth, but mostly all of that is there just to keep people less depressed, boiling sparks of hopes, with short term pink and "brave" and "openminded" images ...and ... i am scared to give up that, as that is what pays bills, but at the same time i can't do that any more, i need a purpose, meaning, value for that "product" to be more than just another "creative junk", as well as the value for others in all what i am doing. I thought that I used to live integral life - I used to see purpose in what we were doing - and there was purpose and it was valuable 10 years ago .... but now when I push to work for bigger picture, it is not what is "needed" in the world tooday .... you see looping my fears on and on and on, with false confident smile on my face ...

Laura - THANK YOU for extracting this about Group Work and all the things around that part and main focus of this forum - with my fussy readings and multitasking mess around I didn't came to that part yet - and now I understand what I was doing ... sorry, yep I understand I need to work more on the understanding of the idea "it is better not doing than doing it out of ignorance" ... THANK you for guiding me to this point

as Perceval sad clearly - I have to "read more, learn more, and STOP talking!" - and yet what I did, I write write write ... :(

I am going to my evry day duties .. there is lot of on the plate today to be done. Later today I would transfer this to the other topic I started with ask for help - http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,39000.new/topicseen.html#new, make more sense to continue there, as there I also put some remarks on Kenlee thoughts, that made me meditate yesterday about narcism and manipulative tendencies in me ...
 
Two years ago, when I met Eärwen I found out about her mistake with Ouji board, and I was kind a angry at Laura because I was thinking that Eärwen didn’t deserve to be banned from the forum, at that time I could not understand what she did. Because of my lack of English knowledge but also because I was still angry at Laura I have visited forum only to read new sessions. I couldn’t imagine to be part of such “cruel” group, even after Eärwen told me couple of times that she deserved what she got. She was driving me crazy because she usually take blame for what she did and what she didn’t do.

Furthermore, this forum layout is the same like one page where I have spent many days in my life, but because of my need to be sincere I have experienced very ugly things. In those days I have read Radical Honesty by Brad Blanton and I was delighted, I felt like someone “put” my thoughts in the book. Convinced that I’m doing the right thing I have tried to be sincere as much as I can but, sadly, without external consideration to others. For others that was pretty shocking, in the beginning they didn’t react at all but once when I was on meeting with group of people, talking what I percieved as truth and honesty I found myself physically souronded with them and they have had a very bad attitude against me. They tried to “enlighten” me with shouting and yelling, with agressive behaviour, and they wanted to show me how stupid I am and that I’m not spiritual at all, asking me how many spiritual books did I read (who is counting this kind of stuff?) and in couple of minutes they concluded that I’m abnormal because I did not have normal childhood, (my mom died when I was 18 years old) and I could not be normal with only one parent. I was trying to tell them that living without mom is a lesson and could help in learning, I was saying what I percieved as the truth and stayed calm. Most important, I was a guest at their home so I was thinking it will be rude to argue with them.
Same things happened in most of my relationships, I was trying to speak “the truth” so much that I was completely ignoring feelings of other side. I am still feeling guilty because of that, and because that was so cruel to others.

When I read The Fourth Way for the first time, I was so sad because I didn’t see the chance that I could find such school and that in my lifetime I will be part of this kind of school. Although Eärwen told me several times that Laura and her crew live and work according to Gurdjieff way I completely neglected that info because of my biases form the beginning of the text.
All of that, consciously & unconsciously was driving me away from the forum and just before couple of months I start to understand the message of “Gurdjieff work” and spontaneously I made thread about the vampire I’m living with and how to defend myself.
The reactions were very helpful, for the first time in my life I received practical advices and members of the forum suggested different threads and books about vampirism.
Besides that, I asked Chu for the help because she seems like a very sensitive, wise and practical person. She gave me in several occasions information about diet, books that could help give more light to the problems that I was puzzled with and all that for free and without feeling that I’m obligated to return favor. I never got privilege to live or communicate in environment where people helping each other and don’t ask nothing in return. I start to realize I should relax and believe that this is real thing, it is not just one time thing, this forum is like that all the time.
When Eärwen returned to the forum I was so happy. Her sadness because of mistake she did before 4 years ago was huge and I didn’t know how to help her. When she wrote the first coupe of explanations why she did the things she did and why she didn’t response in the discussion of the Ouija board I thought: ”Ok, that’s enough. Stop it now! You don’t have to peal your skin so deep, there no need for it any more!” When she did it again I felt like she is doing the same thing but without meaning, I couldn’t understand the reason for it and I didn’t know why she is answering on every single question. I asked her about that and she said that is the right way to deal in the Gurdjieff’s school and that she is willing to open completely and that is the only right way to fight the programs. I still didn’t connect her words with all the things I have read in The Fourth Way and I was very worried about her, but also for myself. I had a feeling if we make mistakes now that we will lose our only chance to learn on the forum in STO environment.

Everything on the forum seems to me like a treasure, I don’t want to lose access to it because of inappropriate sentence or false information. Although I was angry on Laura at first seing Eärwen “punishement” as to strong and unjust, I could see that Laura is extremely helpful and that she is giving so much of knowledge and energy to people for free. My foolish anger flipped in to admiration, respect and absolute trust.
And then, boom! Laura posted passage from book “In Search of the Miraculous” from Ouspensky:

Laura said:
"The next demand made of members of a group is that they must remember why they came to the group. They came to learn and to work on themselves and to learn and to work not as they understand it themselves but as they are told to. If, therefore, once they are in the group, they begin to feel or to express mistrust towards the teacher, to criticize his actions, to find that they understand better how the group should be conducted and especially if they show lack of external considering in relation to the teacher, lack of respect for him, asperity, impatience, tendency to argument, this at once puts an end to any possibility of work, for work is possible only as long as people remember that they have come to learn and not to teach.

I was feeling so guilty, I wanted to turn back the time, and change every single thought that I have had in my mind.
To my mind came phrase from the Game of the Thrones: You know nothing Jon Snow.
That is how I am feeling right now.
I am still feeling like fool, like I didn’t have connection with reality and like I lived in a soap bubble. How could I be so blind and not being able to see the main reason for Eärwen to be banned from the forum? Now I know that Eärwen or anyone else, including myself need to write on the forum in order to learn about what we have in our minds and that is only possible with network.
Before I wrote this post I didn’t sleep all night, but I’m feeling much better now when I shared my mistakes with you.
I am still worried and scared about your reactions on my post, but Gurdjieff said we have to fight against our own fears and lies. :/
 
Dakota, as far as I can see, there's no reason to be scared about forum member reactions to what you wrote. I think it's important and helpful to lay out how you came to your increased understanding of what's done here and why. It can also help others going through similar struggles as you described. It's good for you, it's good for everyone else - and it's something that is an ongoing process, so no need to be afraid of making mistakes either, because those are also how we learn.
 
Dakota said:
And then, boom! Laura posted passage from book “In Search of the Miraculous” from Ouspensky:

Laura said:
"The next demand made of members of a group is that they must remember why they came to the group. They came to learn and to work on themselves and to learn and to work not as they understand it themselves but as they are told to. If, therefore, once they are in the group, they begin to feel or to express mistrust towards the teacher, to criticize his actions, to find that they understand better how the group should be conducted and especially if they show lack of external considering in relation to the teacher, lack of respect for him, asperity, impatience, tendency to argument, this at once puts an end to any possibility of work, for work is possible only as long as people remember that they have come to learn and not to teach.

I was feeling so guilty, I wanted to turn back the time, and change every single thought that I have had in my mind.
To my mind came phrase from the Game of the Thrones: You know nothing Jon Snow.
That is how I am feeling right now.
I am still feeling like fool, like I didn’t have connection with reality and like I lived in a soap bubble. How could I be so blind and not being able to see the main reason for Eärwen to be banned from the forum? Now I know that Eärwen or anyone else, including myself need to write on the forum in order to learn about what we have in our minds and that is only possible with network.
Before I wrote this post I didn’t sleep all night, but I’m feeling much better now when I shared my mistakes with you.
I am still worried and scared about your reactions on my post, but Gurdjieff said we have to fight against our own fears and lies. :/

Dakota, it is a good thing if you can take a text and apply it to yourself and SEE yourself thereby; but don't go too far with it. As you say, a person doesn't have to peel their flesh too deep - just deep enough to get rid of the old and stimulate new growth.

Where Eärwen was concerned, there were other people involved and I think that those other people deserve a chance to discuss and metabolize events and find some way back to trust between each other too. So, for that, a bit more explanation may be needed and possibly a lot of discussion.

In any event, I am always happy when people finally figure something out and come back.
 
Laura said:
Dakota, it is a good thing if you can take a text and apply it to yourself and SEE yourself thereby; but don't go too far with it. As you say, a person doesn't have to peel their flesh too deep - just deep enough to get rid of the old and stimulate new growth.

Where Eärwen was concerned, there were other people involved and I think that those other people deserve a chance to discuss and metabolize events and find some way back to trust between each other too. So, for that, a bit more explanation may be needed and possibly a lot of discussion.

In any event, I am always happy when people finally figure something out and come back.

Thank you Laura and Dakota for your posts they were quite helpful because I might be doing something wrong again, like pretty persistent thoughts that I MUST "peel as much possible of my flesh." While thinking on cutting, and getting rid of "old" flesh, so to say, obviously I am not allowing myself to stimulate new growth on optimal way. I have plans for a life, like physical work, growing of my own food, and daily chores, but for some reason I am more present (in my mind) in the past (4 years ago and far more in the past) than in the present. Sorry for paraphrasing Laura's post but that really sums it up.

It is definitely something I will have to think about and work on it.

In one thing I am sure of, this is indeed the only place I could learn something new about myself every day, and for that I am so grateful.

PS: Although I don't know how to return the trust of Croatian FOTCM members, and my fellow forum members I am willing to do everything in my power to learn about myself, STO values, networking, in a way how to be a better person, not a trouble maker and walking "land mine."

PPS: I m happy to be back too.
 
Eärwen said:
PS: Although I don't know how to return the trust of Croatian FOTCM members, and my fellow forum members I am willing to do everything in my power to learn about myself, STO values, networking, in a way how to be a better person, not a trouble maker and walking "land mine."

PPS: I m happy to be back too.
The main thing is that you realize your mistake and that it does not repeat.
We all make mistakes and stupidity. Some easy to fix, and some a little harder. Sincere apologies that you explain your actions show that you are aware of your mistakes, move on, we're all here to learn something and help each other.
Nobody is perfect, we are only human, with flaws, virtues, successes and failures in his life.
You are not alone :) :) :)
 
casper said:
The main thing is that you realize your mistake and that it does not repeat.
We all make mistakes and stupidity. Some easy to fix, and some a little harder. Sincere apologies that you explain your actions show that you are aware of your mistakes, move on, we're all here to learn something and help each other.
Nobody is perfect, we are only human, with flaws, virtues, successes and failures in his life.
You are not alone :) :) :)

Thank you Casper for your kind words, still I'm on the beginning of "the road," I have lot to ponder about, and even more to work on.
Thank you once more.
 
Well, when you spend two hours to write answer, turn on spell check and you Opera goes black :scared: nothing you can do is :cool2: learn a lesson and long post never write directly on forum reply :(.
 
Dakota said:
Well, when you spend two hours to write answer, turn on spell check and you Opera goes black :scared: nothing you can do is :cool2: learn a lesson and long post never write directly on forum reply :(.
That's happened to me a few times. What I usually do if it's a long post is either copy it before I hit any buttons or write it in Word/notepad then paste it over. It's frustrating but sometimes I find it helps me to think about if what I wrote was really what I wanted to say and not just a narrative.
 
SeekinTruth said:
I think it's important and helpful to lay out how you came to your increased understanding of what's done here and why.
This was very hard question for me. But thank you very much because I never realized that I don't know how I came from one point of view to another. I realized that I was so emotionall is those moments that I have totally forgot how my thinking is changed, but at least I know when. When I read:

Laura said:
"But in order to achieve all this and to obtain results a certain number of people must work together.

How can we work together if we don't telling truth all the time, at least what we think that is truth in that moments?

Also, it is good thing that I work now in very STS environment. And here, on the forum often I can see the beautiful differences between environment on my work and here. They are all so arrogant, rude, bad, extremely egoistic, selfish, they gossip and making traps for everyone (not just me). Here people always trying to help without asking nothing in return, good manners, asking very good and wise question to think about it. Here everyone can progress if someone want and how much he want to progress. Also, in every forum, portal or any life situation when someone posses knowledge (any kind) people are always so prepotent,conceited and vain, here is totally oposit, that is very, very refreshing. On my work, altough that is a restaurant they don't have organization at all, here is very good organized and I'm feeling like I "pay" the ticket for the train, feeling good but I have to work hard to feed the train with a coal. I like that! I'm ashamed to be part of they restaurant, they seeling Banana Split with only a half of banana :-[, because they don't wanna know, they don't care and probably they never will. And here, people care, this organization is very good designed and I feel privileged to be part of it. This environment makes you feel creative and makes you to think, on my work I have lost all my creativity I'm just trying to make good pizza, even pizza never could be good because I don't think that is food at all.

Also, 24 years before I have noticed that people lie a lot, almost all the time. So, I tried to lie to, I have realized that is very hard thing to do, so complex and you have to be prepare all the time, remember what you have lied, to not be caught in lie. I felt like I'm becoming swamp, very dirty feeling and very pathethic. Everyone can lie, but could everyone tell the truth?
 
lainey said:
That's happened to me a few times. What I usually do if it's a long post is either copy it before I hit any buttons or write it in Word/notepad then paste it over. It's frustrating but sometimes I find it helps me to think about if what I wrote was really what I wanted to say and not just a narrative.
;) Usually I copy paste after I'm done with a Spell Check :/
 
solarmind said:
1. Do you think that C's are referring to me in this post, or it is there just as general example?

2. What will be good example of how to show respect to the group?

What I meant is related to what chu said. If someone opens the door of their home to you, invite you, listens to you, then tries to explain you something to help you and you ignore that person to talk about yourself, that does not seem very respectful. The cs might be refering to you or many, notice how they always refer to people sometimes as if they refers to others in general, without focusing on one person. Why? it might spoil the lesson which are about observing the patterns, a lesson with some calories that can be taken once the group ends up discovering it. When these things happen, sometimes is for the best is to question if one might be that person, even if you are not, when they said that I went to look into my mind if I could be that person. Until I realized I had no real purpose not I tried to talk to someone in private, nor that a member of the forum would provide me power, or there would be a benefit for such interaction. So I took the precaution first, and tought that if I'd be one of those, at least I know now what would be the purpose for such manipulation. The secret here is to observe the mechanics of everything, but it takes some time and a bunch of books or contemplation about topics.

I also don't compare you with nasty people, the possesed people in Hostage were not nasty at all, at least not all of them. They were even pitiful in their desires, and only the first one was very nasty. The second one was a father who realized he was possesed when all of the sudden he tried to murder the bride he was marrying, he was described as a lovely being possesed by a being of light and described as a man who loved romanticism, the third one was just a man who tried to become a woman and fell into the hands of some nasty cult who performed a ritual on him, fourth one was a person who had no pathology but because of some weird interactions he was stalked by "Ponto" the demon, the fourth one was a person who was accounted as a man who knew quite a lot, very respected by his peers. None of them did show some green puke or white eyes until exorcised, they were not even nasty, but they were described sometimes as people who were followed by chaos and problems around them. Except for the first one who did some nasty stuff and she wanted to balance this world with darkness. Possesion takes time and it grows gradually, first a tought, then a desire, then actions of desire, and finally a fatal lack of self control when the person does something nasty and wrong, that reflects the person's choice of nature. What Gurdjieff teaches can even be used for self defense against demons if you'd like to see it that way, master to the self and the network or group.

So they were not nasty, at least not all of them, but they were being manipulated by nasty entities. The fifth one when exorcised, the demon answers he (possesed guy) wanted the impossible and they came to him to teach him about the universe, to teach him the impossible. Go figure if they were sincere or not, but these things are not that simple.
 

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