Experiment with the spirit board -lies coming through it & how to recognize them

solarmind said:
Ljubica - I think you did recognize who i am when i welcomed you here, i feel you are not honest on that part, same as what you wrote about my contact MW, it is completely your imagination - i newer wanted to be writer of the articles, or not even editor .. you can translate all my messsages here and please do post all what i wrote when i discovered MV. I didn't' find any sentence where it is saying that i want to be editor, writer or translator - as it is not my skill. As for the group, i sent message to MW FB page when i found out about that, and than we exchanged few, about subjects of interest on MV page, and after that I didn't sent you SINGLE private message to you personaly with any suggestion what and how to do on MW. I was just participating in the group posting interesting stuff without any demand to translate or do something with them. I was just curious to see your thinking on that, same as this one about Hitler, as i didn't like it. Than you said there is too much demands for translaiton, and than i understood that all what is posted inot group is actualy understood as sugesiton for translation, and after that, as you know i didn't interupt your editorial world.

I can copy paste all our conversation here, but i rather you do that, and translate it and bold out, if you found it, all this what you assign to me, and what never was proposed, asked or said to you by me.

No I did not recognize up to the point of seing paterns in communication, and to tell you the truth I don't think on such a unimportant things like who was and when in MW editor group, especially if these people didn't do anything as editors.

I have a lot to work on myself and I have lot of "I's" to fight with, lot of garbage in my mind and now is getting even more garbage in my mind because I think I should concentrate on Saša's, Laura's and Casper's proposal and answer some tough questions, and instead of REAL WORK for hours I'm looking for your messages and posts in MW group, god I even can feel how I'm turning in a vampire while reading your posts, and that is something I have to fight against and I have to learn how to kill a beast in my mind with help of forum members.

On other hand even this conversation with you is valuable in a sense that this is a lesson to me and I will try to learn something from it, but it is very hard to learn when having hole in my stomach.

So in order to do a good thing first I will light a cigarette and than I will do a bit of EE in order to finish this post.

I'm sorry for spamming a thread but I think solarmind expected something from MW, when we could not assist her with it, you simply put us a side and I become archenemy to solarmind.

You said following:

"As about Matrixworld on-line magazine, recently i found out that there is a lot of stuff there translated to Croatian that actually reflects SOTT articles, and i realize it is mostly compilation of articles and researches done by global SOTT editors. It is nice to have that information's avalible in Croatian too, but do you know maybe how many followers and readers of Matrixworld is folowing SOTT, do you have maybe link to SOTT from your magazine page? Do you think that it will be more valuable to supply translated and compiled articles you do for your magazine to HR SOTT insted of having one more online magazine that deals with same topics, but just don't have links and references to wider picture, like SOTT do?"

So why did you joined MW editors group? Why have you joined and stayed for months in MW editors group instead joining Sott editors group, why you were part of MW editors group even while visiting Laura, even you knew that I am not part of this forum, Sott and FOTCM? After I asked of all editors on MW to tell me who would like to stay and who do not wish to contribute you did not say anything but for some reason you peaked at our conversations and even liked our posts, but didn't do nothing for months. So after 01.04.2015. we deleted you form MW editors. On other hand, why didn't you suggest to me that I should think about my wrong deeds after I told you that I experimented on spirit board and that I am unable to organize as you said "Think Thank with Laura and Bernhard" or as you say it "academy of truth"?

After all you contacted MW first, and expressed wish to meet us in person and to contribute in searching and working in "tru" life:

"solarmind
19. studeni 2014 20:48
Vrlo mi je ugodno iznenađenje vaš portal na hrvatskom jeziku smile emoticon ... vjerujem da znate i za ovaj http://veilofreality.com/ .... u svakom slucaju rado bi se upoznala s vama i uživo i ako je moguce doprinosila proucavanju i radu na "istinitom" življenju, posebno u Hrvatskoj koja je mala i vrlo uniformirana u društvenim skupinama, tradicionalno ne otvorena prema novim promišljanjima života kojeg živimo .... kao da polako zapada u kolektivni "san" ...

radujem se novim postovima i vec dalje preporucam vas portal i cudim se kako vas nisam i prije našla ... smile emoticon

hvala

solarmind"

On English:

I'm really nicely surprised with your web page on Croatian language... I believe you know this: http://veilofreality.com/ ... in any case I would like to meet you in person and if possible I would like to contribute in learning and working in "real" life, especially in Croatia which is extremely uniform in social groupings, traditionally Croatia is not open to new way of thinking about life we are living..... but instead is getting even more deep in collective dream.

I am looking forward for your new posts, and I am allready recommending your web site to others, I wonder how I did not find you before.

Thanks

solarmind

Again sorry for making spam with post not in any way connected to this thread, if necessary I will open new thread about whole communication with solarmind.



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Hello Solarmind,

I'm not sure if you ever got around to reading from this thread from the the words of Mme Jeanne de Salzmann, 'The 'First Initiation'?

In fact, her words are about as sobering as they can be to the self, yet, they are the truth. Her words can hit like a hammer paralyzing ones predator mind, the divisiveness of mind, which is what she is looking at. Yet that mind can, and does, reassert itself as soon as possible, overwriting the script with the intent to make her words disappear, without the conscious mind ever remembering those words being there at each and every moment.

With your words, you may or may not be in a kind of "flight/fright" mode at the moment, and I was reminded of a person with whom I work with when you said in reference to "misunderstanding" me, and then with bold shouting captions as a response to Laura a number of comments ago, which can be seen as an "I'm Right" message. In my case, that person always defaults to everyone is "misunderstanding" me all the time, when in fact this person does not listen and does not even attempt to see anything that people are saying. In that case, the awareness switch is turned to off. This person is always in attack mode via manipulations, and at every turn there is consequences for everyone else. I'm not suggesting you are like this person, yet many of us have been this person at different times. So just letting you know that there was a remembrance triggered by what is going on at the moment and how you are responding.

As said by others in a number of ways to you, it is very difficult, if not impossible to see yourself as you really are. Comments to you require some reflection without heightened responses, which is why a network, community, like-minded group can help in the process. What the others in Croatia have said may or may not be true, they may only be remembering and interpreted things in one way, yet, they may be observing them correctly; don't know. All in all, there is a fantastic opportunity for you, as for others; including myself, to listen and learn objectively about oneself with every reply and comment in the forum.

de Salzmann said:
...Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others - lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions - lies. Your teaching - lies. Your theories, your art- lies. Your social life, your family life - lies. And what you think of yourself - lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day.

You will see that you are different from what you think you are.

You will see that you are two.

One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.
 
Well solarmind, you did something and that was to be an exemplary subject for some analysis. I've recently read the adventures with cassio on the Wave, and you share some of the traits with this guy Frank. Especially the covertly and trying to play the advanced holy light saint or something, like when you said "this is very STO oriented", what?!! lol I mean... how could I explain how incorrect that is?

I think we could quote this part

Q: (Andromeda) What does "keep faith with each other" mean?

A: We notice that there are members of your forum who are not doing this.

Q: (L) In what respect?

A: Covertly antagonistic.

Q: (L) So there are people who are covertly antagonistic. Why are they covertly antagonistic?

A: Little respect.

Q: (L) So they have little respect.

(Chu) I'm assuming that means for you or us?

(L) In other words, they don't have respect for the group?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Us particularly?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Anything more than that?

A: You especially.

Q: (L) Why?

A: Inspired by negative discarnate entities with connections to 4D STS "handlers".

Notice what Chu and Laura just said about solarmind. Now, I feel some empathy because of the last part "negative discarnate entities", that might be a dead 3rd density dude or a 4th density dead dude. So this may explain this vulnerability of solarmind, which might be partially her lack of respect, and the lack of respect of this entity, both complement each other. This may also explain the contradictory voices in Solarmind expressed on her responses. She is half sincere on her attraction to this forum, but mostly corrupted by a possible attachment? and it doesn't look like a humble attachment. Something I learned from the Hostage to the Devil book, is that attachments are so succesful, not because they just attach and use our minds, but because they sort of attach to the Heart Center, as if they generate an exoskeleton of their own, from there, any "Impression" ala Gurdjieff makes the subject of attachment, the hostage, react in particular ways. But this also means that solarmind, you really don't respect Laura and the team. You respect what they can give to you, but not what they are and what is their mission. None of the subjects of hostage to the devil really understood how wrong or nasty they were, none, not even the last subject who was a "professional" meditator and follower of some spiritual tradition. Is like they always had the nicest excuses for their behaviors, they were so dreamy and even evasive of any discussion of an evil in them. One of them did this just after being exorcised! It is amazing to read that, you get exorcised, you speak in tongues with a demonic voice, and you still think there is nothing wrong!
 
Saša said:
Laura said:
Eärwen said:
casper said:
My advice, new threads and explain events from the very beginning, to your eventual return to the forum, why you did certain things, what has changed and whether it changed your view on this forum.
Maybe your story help others. :)

Uh, a new thread, OK I'll try to do it, if other members have same idea about it.

I don't think a new thread is necessary nor a whole "life story" type of thing. Peeps can ask specific questions and that should be sufficient.

I agree with Laura, this is the thread about our board experiment and everything related to it.

Eärwen said:
Saša said:
I think you're missing the point here - similar like we missed the point 4 years ago and had negative thought loops and mutual negative feedbacks lead the show then, all based on totally screwed perception of reality what was happening to us. Each of these was reinforcing the other, and we chose the road we took - nobody forced us to do it - although a hand of help was offered here to pull us out of that illusion.
If you recall it, the then launched MW was not the product of us being "ousted/expelled" because of playing with the board, the same as SOTT editors didn't write to us "removing" the rights to use their material on MW due to that reason.
I wrote the opening post in this thread in bad faith - we already expected the reaction we got here and planned our (re)actions accordingly - remember?
The point, as I see it, was not so much (foolish and childish) playing with the board, it was our thinking, behaviour and actions after that, and complete lack of trust (and faith) in this network at that time, to such extent to had perceived it/them as our enemies.
From your posts so far, I get the impression that you still don't see/understand it, still focusing (mainly solely) on the board play itself.

I understand what you want to say, actually I am grateful for that. Please correct me if I am wrong. You want to say that it is most important to focus, not on "experiment itself" but on that what, mainly I did and think on that time. Of course no body forced us to do it, that was our fee will (in retrospect that is even bigger problem than someone pushed us in that way).

So perhaps than I should focus on why I did not answer on questions forum members asked at the time this thread was made, or to focus on biases and negative loops I had at the same time.

For sure I don't fully see/understand it completely but, that is the reason I am here. I would be extremely naive to think I got it all sorted out, but I am willing to learn and that I can do only on this forum.

I'll think about it and read whole therad couple times in order not to miss anything and will try to give direct answers to questions in it.

I don't think you need to go through the entire thread and reply on every single unanswered question. That was 4 year ago, those posts were written then, in that situation.

The question at this moment is what is your understanding NOW of why we chose THEN not to reply to network asking - why did we "go silent"? Does this understanding differ from what we told each other (and to ourselves) then, and if so in what way and what made the difference?

I gave some answers to Casper and previous posts but I will gladly ad more input about myself then and now:

4 years ago: I thought that I can use spirit board without any knowledge related to it, my opinion was that nothing can harm us and that we are really making "experiment." Since my ego was sky high I was living in illusion of self importance and was enthusiastic and proud for sharing our, hmmm, masterpeace with Laura.

Today: God I can not believe what kind of jerk I was, I am ashamed for every single illusion and bias I have had in my head than. I even don't understand a need to make a board and to "experiment." The notion I wanted to know "what happened in the past, or about reincarnation and Illyrian language," was only related to dangerous curiosity without will to "gain" knowledge with reading and research via books and Internet. Well am quite sure I listened false personalities in my own head (more than one) and that these false personalities were absolutely lazy "I's" because if I was under influence of "I's" that have need to work, I would read, debate on the forum and gain my knowledge on way normal workaholic people do. A that time I could not grasp the real meaning Thomas Edison's quote: " Success is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration." I was taking everything for granted, not only in my own family but within my friends and FOTCM members. And that was completely unacceptable and dangerous in every single meaning.

4 years ago: After the C's explained about our "experiment" I become something like, please forgive me for such classification but I don't have better anallogy" I become something like mad cow (real mad cow from 2D) not possible to read and think about the deeds I done. My mind was on overdrive of negative toughs and feelings, I felt like forum members and chateau crew including Laura are taking me (and the rest of team) for enemy. I was switching between feeling of self pity and scare beyond the words, in one minute I was crying for my poor self, in other minute I was crying for "being" Laura's enemy. I could not read or think about posts in this thread and I have had impression that the whole wide world is against me, I was so involved in my own illusion of reality that in a moment when some of "I's" that wanted to work on the forum, pop up from the back of my mind, I did not know where to start on this thread, but in next minute lazy and liar group of I's popped up and than I was thinking that how unfair was whole forum and that we explained everything in Saša's opening post of the thread, we said everything, we are soooooooooooooooooo benevolent and truthful, with constant question of: why forum members are attacking us?

Today: If I could turn the time, I wouldn't touch a spirit board, I wouldn't think about it. But hypothetically speaking if I have had and urge to play with spirit board 4 years ago (although with this knowledge I never would), I would open thread on the forum and sincerely admit I have dangerous thoughts and that I need assistance form the forum members and so on, but I would never touch it or think to do anything before sharing my toughs on forum. And in second hypothetical scenario, let's say I could go back to the point where we did played with Ouija board and I am faced with forum, I would be most grateful for each and single post, and I would take not only playing with a board but all material on this thread as possibility of learning. I would answer on every single post and I will take it as a serious lesson that can make me "better" person, actually a person who is learning in the best possible environment. I wouldn't miss a chance to reveal all my false layers and I will persist in exposing all my programs until I could, with member's help, come to the bone of my being, even if that will take a months, a years. Instead of rejecting forum, Laura, C's and chateau crew, and extended family in FOTCOM, I would embrace their help. I would thoroughly read all the posts, I will think about any new input on the thread before answering to it, I would contemplate on every aspect given, and most important I would ask a questions when not sure I understand the posts and comments. Today I am aware that there is no better place to learn about everything in inner and outer worlds but this forum and FOTCM, and that something one could take as "bad and unapologetic" experience on the forum is actually sincere group alarm and that one should take it seriously. Today I am fully aware of importance of this forum and I wouldn't disrespect it with anything. I have lot to learn, especially about programs I mentioned in one of previous post but, boy I'm glad I can do it in here with you guys.

As I allready explained the change in my train of toughs did not happened suddenly or in one snap of the fingers, that was a pretty long process, I noticed that when firmly concentrated on one program that is most persistent, damage control place more smaller programs in order to loop me in oblivion of slumber and dream, it's really scary to know that programs are allways there and when blocking another is popping up. I have feeling that is something human being must work all life long.

Please ask me if more feedback needed, I'll gladly share whatever I know about myself, and if I find more programs within the time, I'll promptly share it with you guys.
 
Eärwen,
You wrote that you visited the forum as a guest, so you could see that Sasha returned.
Also, as a guest you could have read that the members of this forum for days waiting for answers to questions that you asked, did not react. Why not?
Just to clarify, I not condemn you, and I will never condemn anyone.
It not clear to me how at you in this story have any effect (if I remember) Violeta.
What happens next with MW?
You wrote that you would like to do with goats milk, meat ...
Do not be angry that I ask, but where you need start-up capital, because as I understand it, you are in a more difficult financial situation.


PS:
I'm from Croatian, my English was very bad, please if something wrong I wrote or did not understand, write me. :-[
 
casper said:
Eärwen,
You wrote that you visited the forum as a guest, so you could see that Sasha returned.
Also, as a guest you could have read that the members of this forum for days waiting for answers to questions that you asked, did not react. Why not?
Just to clarify, I not condemn you, and I will never condemn anyone.
It not clear to me how at you in this story have any effect (if I remember) Violeta.
What happens next with MW?
You wrote that you would like to do with goats milk, meat ...
Do not be angry that I ask, but where you need start-up capital, because as I understand it, you are in a more difficult financial situation.


PS:
I'm from Croatian, my English was very bad, please if something wrong I wrote or did not understand, write me. :-[

No no anger at all, I'm grateful for every question, and no worry with English my own is not perfect, most important is that we understand each other, and if we don't we'll help one another.

I visited forum from time to time to read C's session, I did not indulge myself in any prolonged staying because I had a feeling like cheating, I know that was stupid and irrational but I did lot of irrational things in my life. The reason why I haven't replay to the forum thread, I allready explained in post with Saša's guestions. But most of all was because, I lived in illusion that whole forum think I'm their enemy and that they blamed me for nothing. God what a mind roller coaster, what a pomopose prick I was. I found out Saša is back just recently and to tell you the truth I was extremely happy for that, I was thinking that I will never manage to come over my programmings and that I will stay life long loser, so I start to work even harder on my biases. In a big way Saša was a strong motivation, a light on the end of the tunnel, Saša don't laugh, I know this might sound a bit funny, but whenever I was getting to a slumber, your returning motivated me in the best possible way. But I did not come back when I found out Saša is back, I could not, because I tough first I must clean my mind and deal with my garbage before presenting myself to the forum, I tough it is my obligation to work on myself and not to come here like a mess, so to speak but with results that could be seen in a way.

I finally decided to come back after I had an epiphany, I don't have to deal with all the biases an programs and that is not possible to do it allone, forum is the best place to learn and every day I'm staying away form it I am making more damage to myself and people I hurt during my "mad cow" phase.

Um, I'm not sure to understand question about Violeta, but I'll try to answer on it. I stayed friend with V only shortly after experiment, she wanted many things for granted, me to work for free on her web page and marketing, free vacation in Lovište and it was, in many aspecests clear that she is not honest, that she don't value friendship and that indeed her ego is working 24/7. I "knew" her for 21-22 years but in the end I didn't know her at all, so at first I asked of her some clarifications about her deeds and actions she did and made but she was not willing to give any reasonable answer. Instead of everything she was telling that we are friends and that is more than enough answer on my questions. After than I spoke to my parents and told them that I can see something in V that I refused to see for many years, and I ask them for sincere input. Both of them said they are grateful beyond the words to her assistance, she actually saved my dad from the death row in a war, he was captured in Monte Negro. But they could see a negative patterns and lies coming form her. So I talked more to her, than she become really unfriendly to me and I decided, enough is enough so I broke our "friendhip." Did not see and hear form her for 4 years. Don't take me wrong, if she is willing to work on herself if she is really willing to change herself, I would again talk to her, but I am afraid she is not interested in such things. And who am I to blame, I have to work a lot on my own garbage, and if someone want to stay in own illusions that is their right and I will not condemn them but I'll stay away from these people as far as I could.

What will happen to MW? I don't know. MW is having some nice texts especially about health and pathocracy, I guess until it serve educational purpose and until there are people who would like to volunteer on it it will be present on the net.

Yeah, we already producing organic vine, having a bit of olive oil and nice orchard, I'm allready making home jams and marmalade (not for us but for tourists and family who are eating and drinking such things) and ghee, and mom is producing liquors, for years we are having range free chickens and in fall we'll take 150 meat and eggs chikens for our OPG, and the rest of the animals according to our possibilities, and we are still active in fishing, so nice and easy no pressure. No loans or such things, so basically as much money we make with our work (after we exclude money for bills and food) we'll invest in OPG, although that is not a lot, we are happy. I'm saying we because that is family business not my own.

Well overall financial situation in Croatia is really bad for years, but if I can compare myself before 4 years and now, it is better because I work with family and not in post office or shop and I really like it, we can't do miracles but with little steps in a couple years results will be seen if nothing dramatically changed on global scale.

Casper if you want to know, or any member, more about OPG I'm planing or about self employment in Croatia, I will gladly open new thread as I promised to Chu in a while, when I can present results and obstacles because for now we still have only fishing firm, an no agricultural OPG.
 
Eärwen said:
Chu said:
Can't comment on your plans, because that concerns the situation in your own country, but do keep networking (it might be better to start a new thread, since this one is about the experiment...)
Thank you Chu.

OK, I'll will open new therad with the topic about making own food and tobacco in Croatia (for people who are interested in such things), but in a little while when I can present real results and possible problems.

Eärwen said:
Casper if you want to know, or any member, more about OPG I'm planing or about self employment in Croatia, I will gladly open new thread as I promised to Chu in a while, when I can present results and obstacles because for now we still have only fishing firm, an no agricultural OPG.

I think you don't need to have some results and/or already encountered problems and obstacles to open a thread about your plans. Networking means talking/writing about your thinking, reasoning, observations and planning, even before the actions are put into motion. To share all of those to the network, someone you trust that can see things more objectively than ourselves alone, for taking a look, giving their perception and rectifying potential "screwed" conclusions and off-the-correct-path decisions prior than doing possibly "wrong" thing.
That's where we, 4 years ago, failed miserably, IMO - at proper networking prior than taking the board in our hands.
Of course, nobody can force you to do it if you don't want to and/or think it's not needed - it's your free choice to do it or not.


Eärwen said:
What will happen to MW? I don't know. MW is having some nice texts especially about health and pathocracy, I guess until it serve educational purpose and until there are people who would like to volunteer on it it will be present on the net.

Does above mean that you "retired" from MW or that you plan to do that in the future?
 
Menrva said:
solarmind said:
Andromeda, if you think it is better for your comunity to ban me, go for it. If that si how i can contribute, as you don't see that i am contributing any how right now, it will be my pleasure to finly give somehing valuable to you guys as i did learn a lot from you. Absurd how it is, but that is how it goes. I maight feel sad for that, and i don't see a point in that threth to me, but "who cares", you "checked me out" i am not of any use, so lets trash her. This is very STO oriented ... :(

That reads like a pity ploy, solarmind, which is just another form of manipulation.

These statements also reflect the parts of you that resent and reject the feedback being given. Your use of the word "threat" for instance suggest that there is an "I" in there that does not really see how the impressions made of you can actually be correct, or sat with, taken in by you and used constructively. That is, so far.

Your subjective interpretation of what's being said here are also the cause for your thinking that you are being "trashed". The coup de grace is your facetious comment that what's being said to you, "is very STO oriented". How do you know that it is not STO? You do not. The working assumption on this forum is that there may be some part of you that DOES want to work on yourself and DOES want to see yourself as objectively as possible. Oftentimes 'helping' someone looks and feel exactly as it does here. But you are passing judgement on this difficult but tried and true process. And your responses thus far only further go to show how the feedback you've been given are, in fact, valid.

You will be most helpful to yourself (and the larger efforts being put forward) at this point if you work towards trying to see - really see - those things about your personality and behavior that are being pointed out to you - and to recognize them for what they are; programmed responses and modes of behavior that do not serve you well anymore. There is just a load of material on narcissism, cognitive thinking, and fourth way concepts here that can provide you with a treasure of insight and that you are being encouraged to delve into. But you can start by reviewing all that's been said thus far, and accept that what's been said is true.
 
Saša said:
Eärwen said:
Chu said:
Can't comment on your plans, because that concerns the situation in your own country, but do keep networking (it might be better to start a new thread, since this one is about the experiment...)
Thank you Chu.

OK, I'll will open new therad with the topic about making own food and tobacco in Croatia (for people who are interested in such things), but in a little while when I can present real results and possible problems.

Eärwen said:
Casper if you want to know, or any member, more about OPG I'm planing or about self employment in Croatia, I will gladly open new thread as I promised to Chu in a while, when I can present results and obstacles because for now we still have only fishing firm, an no agricultural OPG.

I think you don't need to have some results and/or already encountered problems and obstacles to open a thread about your plans. Networking means talking/writing about your thinking, reasoning, observations and planning, even before the actions are put into motion. To share all of those to the network, someone you trust that can see things more objectively than ourselves alone, for taking a look, giving their perception and rectifying potential "screwed" conclusions and off-the-correct-path decisions prior than doing possibly "wrong" thing.
That's where we, 4 years ago, failed miserably, IMO - at proper networking prior than taking the board in our hands.
Of course, nobody can force you to do it if you don't want to and/or think it's not needed - it's your free choice to do it or not.


Eärwen said:
What will happen to MW? I don't know. MW is having some nice texts especially about health and pathocracy, I guess until it serve educational purpose and until there are people who would like to volunteer on it it will be present on the net.

Does above mean that you "retired" from MW or that you plan to do that in the future?

OK, so I continue to answer about OPG questions if more occurred in this thread, and I will share ideas, toughs and plans with members of the forum before doing something in real life. That is such a relief because with you guys, actually your advice having bigger chance to succeed.

I'm not "retired" from MW and for now I'm not planing to do it. But If necessary or if forum members think I should do it for any reason, I will (including deleting MW for good).
 
Ennio said:
Menrva said:
solarmind said:
Andromeda, if you think it is better for your comunity to ban me, go for it. If that si how i can contribute, as you don't see that i am contributing any how right now, it will be my pleasure to finly give somehing valuable to you guys as i did learn a lot from you. Absurd how it is, but that is how it goes. I maight feel sad for that, and i don't see a point in that threth to me, but "who cares", you "checked me out" i am not of any use, so lets trash her. This is very STO oriented ... :(

That reads like a pity ploy, solarmind, which is just another form of manipulation.

These statements also reflect the parts of you that resent and reject the feedback being given. Your use of the word "threat" for instance suggest that there is an "I" in there that does not really see how the impressions made of you can actually be correct, or sat with, taken in by you and used constructively. That is, so far.

Your subjective interpretation of what's being said here are also the cause for your thinking that you are being "trashed". The coup de grace is your facetious comment that what's being said to you, "is very STO oriented". How do you know that it is not STO? You do not. The working assumption on this forum is that there may be some part of you that DOES want to work on yourself and DOES want to see yourself as objectively as possible. Oftentimes 'helping' someone looks and feel exactly as it does here. But you are passing judgement on this difficult but tried and true process. And your responses thus far only further go to show how the feedback you've been given are, in fact, valid.

You will be most helpful to yourself (and the larger efforts being put forward) at this point if you work towards trying to see - really see - those things about your personality and behavior that are being pointed out to you - and to recognize them for what they are; programmed responses and modes of behavior that do not serve you well anymore. There is just a load of material on narcissism, cognitive thinking, and fourth way concepts here that can provide you with a treasure of insight and that you are being encouraged to delve into. But you can start by reviewing all that's been said thus far, and accept that what's been said is true.

Indeed. Solarmind wanted to get involved with people directly and I explained to her that one must "do The Work" first. She was gung ho to do that, but when the Work actually began, the heat of the kitchen appears to have been too much for her.
 
Laura said:
Indeed. Solarmind wanted to get involved with people directly and I explained to her that one must "do The Work" first. She was gung ho to do that, but when the Work actually began, the heat of the kitchen appears to have been too much for her.

You relay don't like me :D. Or I am getting wrong your sens of humor and sarcasm?
But ok let'S do some Work. and thank you any way :flowers:
You mention yesterday that you think there is "more on my plate", can you be more specific? It will be very much appreciated.

Voyageur, thank you for your comment too. Yes i did go through that thread too, and through many others ... Menrva and Ennio, thank you for your remarks too.

What was interesting for me is specially Prometeo post, as he compared his impression of me to some really nasty people, and i have couple of questions:

1. Do you think that C's are referring to me in this post, or it is there just as general example?

2. What will be good example of how to show respect to the group?

As so far, what I know is that I do respect them, not just what they can offer to me, more than that i do respect who they are and what is their mission. I respect them even more after I visited them. I am IMPRESSED and very proud that there are poeple on earth like this group, who collectively devoted their life to this expriment of merging esoteric and quantum physics, through all the other activites they do, to bring truth and objectivity to the world! This is what I do think from my brain and heart. Other than that is completely out of my awareness. But some how my respect is invisible, my attempts to contribute end up as the most coruptive intrusion to the core of this work. And not just that, what I learned from your comments, my writings are even disrespectfull, and that is something I was not aware of before you write it here, and unfortunately i am still not aware of that. More simple direct and specific examples and points will be very nice for me to understand it better. I did get the point about disrespectfull impuls about getting Croats to meet togeather. But what eles?

3. After reading all the posts I have a stroong feleing that there is somehting Laura and crew knows about me that i don't. Is it possible?

4. I am aware that anyone, including me, can have some serious attachments of evil that is impossible to recognize by itself. And I came here to work on it, and i do the WORK intensively since last 3 months, about 2 hours a day with daily practice of self-remembering in any sensitive situation + breathing and mediation. I am not intending to showcase here what i did so far, it is all under my account, and I do see progress in my daily life. But if you are concern that i can be manipulated by some really nasty attachment, how can i found out that, and what will be specific suggested procedure to work on it?

and if you don't mind I will prefere to continue this conversation in some other place, not under this thread, as I don't feel good here after what I read what happend whit this experiment Croatians did with board and channeling. And i have no any ides any more of geting Croats togeather any how, as, let me be sarcastic - it seams to be historicaly "mission impossible". :D .. you maight not understand this joke, but that is how it goes with us - just to quote one joke aboout Croats "there is no many of us, buut we can always make a big mess".

Maybe if you want to give me more of your observations and thoughts and advices on this part we can continue here on this topic: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,39000.msg595859.html#msg595859

And yes this my pity plot that took your attention was written in sarcastic auto ironical mood, I thought you will recognize that it was intentional expression of disapointment to some factual stuff about me that were not presented as it was.

thank you, and I hope it is warm enough in the kitchen, as I am truly looking forward to super clean my machine.

:cool2: :rockon: :lkj:
 
solarmind said:
Laura said:
Indeed. Solarmind wanted to get involved with people directly and I explained to her that one must "do The Work" first. She was gung ho to do that, but when the Work actually began, the heat of the kitchen appears to have been too much for her.

You relay don't like me :D. Or I am getting wrong your sens of humor and sarcasm?
But ok let'S do some Work. and thank you any way :flowers:

First three points: You misunderstand and assume that what I say, or what others say, means that you are not liked. You assume that I am speaking/writing from a "sense of humor" or "sarcasm". All three points are wrong and are based on a complete lack of knowledge of what The Work is that must be done in order to transform the individual.

These misunderstandings are due mainly to the fact that you are putting the cart before the horse. There is MUCH reading that you must do just simply to be able to work on the self that prepares you to be a fit member of a community/network. As you are, you are not fit or even capable of sustaining long term relations with anyone in this forum who IS doing The Work.

Fourth point: Lesson from Gurdjieff.

"The struggle against lying in oneself and the struggle against fears is the first positive work which a man begins to do.

"One must realize in general that positive efforts and even sacrifices in the work do not justify or excuse mistakes which may follow. On the contrary, things that could be forgiven in a man who has made no efforts and who has sacrificed nothing will not be forgiven in another who has already made great sacrifices.

"This seems to be unjust, but one must understand the law. There is, as it were, a separate account kept for every man. His efforts and sacrifices are written down on one side of the book and his mistakes and misdeeds on the other side. What is written down on the positive side can never atone for what is written down on the negative side. What is recorded on the negative side can only be wiped out by the truth, that is to say, by an instant and complete confession to himself and to others and above all to the teacher. If a man sees his fault but continues to justify himself, a small offense may destroy the result of whole years of work and effort. In the work, therefore, it is often better to admit one's guilt even when one is not guilty.
 
Laura said:
If a man sees his fault but continues to justify himself, a small offense may destroy the result of whole years of work and effort. In the work, therefore, it is often better to admit one's guilt even when one is not guilty.
[/quote]

YES, that is what i feel is right thing to do, but ... ! and to hold on my horses, and be less impulsive, that is for sure a thing i have to work a lot on it ... Funny enough, i read this chapter and I understand what is written, yep it took me more than 5 years to get rid of "big life junk", but some how I omitted this sentence, and it is esential for fine tuning?!? And it is funny that I will probably come to that conclusion soon, but also reading it in this context gives better trust. Maybe I just wasn't ready to see it? Scary ...

I am listenitng to audio book and than what I found misunderstood i reread from the book. Maybe it is not good idea at all, but due to time and other htings i have to do during the day, i found it better to start with audio book, than with nothing.

thx!
 
solarmind said:
and i do appreshiate all criticism, but i do feel that i have been putt down when i am simply accused for specific things that noone now can rememebr exactly., but i do rememebr. Maybe you just didn't listen to me when i was telling that, as you were feed up with my talks that as ypu said were just most of the time a noise that came out of my insecurity and excitment to be with you guys, and complete absence of knowledeg on many things that i do know now.

i don't want to explain myself any more ... i just want to continue with learning from here where i stoped ... and what ever you wnat to do with me is your choice ... knowledge will find a way tovards those who are sincirely looking for it.

Actually solarmind your "appreciation of criticism" is contradicted by the fact that all you have done in the last several pages of this thread is to constantly insist that you are 'right' by defending yourself over and over on what you interpreted to be "accusations" against you when, in reality, what was really happening were simply facts being brought to your attention regarding your actions (some of which were shown to be covert) and the underlying intent behind your actions that would place you in some kind of place of importance and control. However you have rejected all important input regarding this in favor of what Gurdjieff would call wiseacring so as to sidetrack and deflect from this central issue.

What I am seeing is whatever inner narrative that was going through your mind when you invited yourself to the Chateau (i.e., that you were doing it for 'good' or 'sto' reasons) was completely in-congruent with deeper motives that you were/are still unconscious of which is to manipulate and control people and eventually create problems one way or the other. The only thing that you are even remotely conscious of in all this is of your ongoing narratives that explain how 'right' you are as you proceed along, while still unconscious of and refusing to 'see' what your real motivations were that initiated your actions to 'self invite' and go visit in the first place.

What I see in all this is a classic buffer/false personality deflection to keep yourself from cognizing the crux of the matter which is that you are very manipulative and completely unable to recognize your primal motivations (even if they are unconscious) on why you wanted to visit the Chateau. Your false personality is showing itself to be so thick that any feedback influences coming from outside to point this out just gets superficially absorbed and then bounces off and rejected from some kind of impenetrable fortress.

First you agree on this point, then later disagree on that point, then agree again on some other point and so on and the end result is that nothing happens. The 'agrees' and 'disagrees' just null themselves out into some great neutrality that has no potential. Energy is wasted and nothing is seen or understood.

Then you talk as if you are really trying to 'work' while subtly interweaving the pity card into your narratives designed by small degrees to tire and wear people down so you can feel the 'power' as if you are in control. It's this power/control that you are after in whatever form it may take and considering the line of force of your original intent then you would probably use this power for destructive/disruptive purposes just to prove to yourself that you have it. That's how it would play itself out. And all in the name of 'doing good' of course.
 
solarmind said:
Laura said:
If a man sees his fault but continues to justify himself, a small offense may destroy the result of whole years of work and effort. In the work, therefore, it is often better to admit one's guilt even when one is not guilty.

YES, that is what i feel is right thing to do, but ... ! and to hold on my horses, and be less impulsive, that is for sure a thing i have to work a lot on it ...

Notice the first words of the quoted segment: ""The struggle against lying in oneself...."

It's not just an issue of being impulsive. You are right: a LOT of work.

solarmind said:
Funny enough, i read this chapter and I understand what is written, yep it took me more than 5 years to get rid of "big life junk", but some how I omitted this sentence, and it is esential for fine tuning?!?

And much more.

solarmind said:
And it is funny that I will probably come to that conclusion soon, but also reading it in this context gives better trust. Maybe I just wasn't ready to see it? Scary ...

There's a lot that we aren't ready to see until we are ready to see.

solarmind said:
I am listenitng to audio book and than what I found misunderstood i reread from the book. Maybe it is not good idea at all, but due to time and other htings i have to do during the day, i found it better to start with audio book, than with nothing.

thx!

An audio book IS better than nothing, but there is nothing like slowly reading and re-reading. Here's your next bit of text. Read it carefully, more than once.

"In so-called 'occult' literature you have probably met with the expression 'Kundalini,' 'the fire of Kundalini,' or the 'serpent of Kundalini.' This expression is often used to designate some kind of strange force which is present in man and which can be awakened. But none of the known theories gives the right explanation of the force of Kundalini. Sometimes it is connected with sex, with sex energy, that is with the idea of the possibility of using sex energy for other purposes. This latter is entirely wrong because Kundalini can be in anything. And above all, Kundalini is not anything desirable or useful for man's development. It is very curious how these occultists have got hold of the word from somewhere but have completely altered its meaning and from a very dangerous and terrible thing have made something to be hoped for and to be awaited as some blessing.

"In reality Kundalini is the power of imagination, the power of fantasy, which takes the place of a real function. When a man dreams instead of acting, when his dreams take the place of reality, when a man imagines himself to be an eagle, a lion, or a magician, it is the force of Kundalini acting in him. Kundalini can act in all centers and with its help all the centers can be satisfied with the imaginary instead of the real. A sheep which considers itself a lion or a magician lives under the power of Kundalini.

"Kundalini is a force put into men in order to keep them in their present state. If men could really see their true position and could understand all the horror of it, they would be unable to remain where they are even for one second. They would begin to seek a way out and they would quickly find it, because there is a way out; but men fail to see it simply because they are hypnotized. Kundalini is the force that keeps them in a hypnotic state. 'To awaken' for man means to be 'dehypnotized.' In this lies the chief difficulty and in this also lies the guarantee of its possibility, for there is no organic reason for sleep and man can awaken.

"Theoretically he can, but practically it is almost impossible because as soon as a man awakens for a moment and opens his eyes, all the forces that caused him to fall asleep begin to act upon him with tenfold energy and he immediately falls asleep again, very often dreaming that he is awake or is awakening.

"There are certain states in ordinary sleep in which a man wants to awaken but cannot. He tells himself that he is awake but, in reality, he continues to sleep—and this can happen several times before he finally awakes. But in ordinary sleep, once he is awake, he is in a different state; in hypnotic sleep the case is otherwise; there are no objective characteristics, at any rate not at the beginning of awakening; a man cannot pinch himself in order to make sure that he is not asleep. And if, which God forbid, a man has heard anything about objective characteristics, Kundalini at once transforms it all into imagination and dreams.

"Only a man who fully realizes the difficulty of awakening can understand the necessity of long and hard work in order to awake.

"Speaking in general, what is necessary to awake a sleeping man? A good shock is necessary. But when a man is fast asleep one shock is not enough. A long period of continual shocks is needed. Consequently there must be somebody to administer these shocks. I have said before that if a man wants to awaken he must hire somebody who will keep on shaking him for a long time. But whom can he hire if everyone is asleep? A man will hire somebody to wake him up but this one also falls asleep. What is the use of such a man? And a man who can really keep awake will probably refuse to waste his time in waking others up: he may have his own much more important work to do.

"There is also the possibility of being awakened by mechanical means. A man may be awakened by an alarm clock. But the trouble is that a man gets accustomed to the alarm clock far too quickly, he ceases to hear it. Many alarm clocks are necessary and always new ones. Otherwise a man must surround himself with alarm clocks which will prevent him sleeping. But here again there are certain difficulties. Alarm clocks must be wound up; in order to wind them up one must remember about them; in order to remember one must wake up often. But what is still worse, a man gets used to all alarm clocks and after a certain time he only sleeps the better for them. Therefore alarm clocks must be constantly changed, new ones must be continually invented. In the course of time this may help a man to awaken. But there is very little chance of a man doing all the work of winding up, inventing, and changing clocks all by himself, without outside help. It is much more likely that he will begin this work and that it will afterwards pass into sleep, and in sleep he will dream of inventing alarm clocks, of winding them up and changing them, and simply sleep all the sounder for it.

"Therefore, in order to awaken, a combination of efforts is needed. It is necessary that somebody should wake "the man up; it is necessary that somebody should look after the man who wakes him; it is necessary to have alarm clocks and it is also necessary continually to invent new alarm clocks.

"But in order to achieve all this and to obtain results a certain number of people must work together.

"One man can do nothing.

"Before anything else he needs help. But help cannot come to one man alone. Those who are able to help put a great value on their time. And, of course, they would prefer to help, say, twenty or thirty people who want to awake rather than one man. Moreover, as has been said earlier, one man can easily deceive himself about his awakening and take for awakening simply a new dream. If several people decide to struggle together against sleep, they will wake each other. It may often happen that twenty of them will sleep but the twenty-first will be awake and he will wake up the rest. It is exactly the same thing with alarm clocks. One man will invent one alarm clock, another man will invent another, afterwards they can make an exchange. Altogether they can be of very great help one to another, and without this help no one can attain anything.

"Therefore a man who wants to awake must look for other people who also want to awake and work together with them. This, however, is easier said than done because to start such work and to organize it requires a knowledge which an ordinary man cannot possess. The work must be organized and it must have a leader. Only then can it produce the results expected of it. Without these conditions no efforts can result in anything whatever. Men may torture themselves but these tortures will not make them awake. This is the most difficult of all for certain people to understand. By themselves and on their own initiative they may be capable of great efforts and great sacrifices. But because their first effort and their first sacrifice ought to be obedience nothing on earth will induce them to obey another. And they do not want to reconcile themselves to the thought that all their efforts and all their sacrifices are useless.

"Work must be organized. And it can be organized only by a man who knows its problems and its aims, who knows its methods; by a man who has in his time passed through such organized work himself.

"A man usually begins his studies in a small group. This group is generally connected with a whole series of similar groups on different levels which, taken together, constitute what may be called a 'preparatory school.'

"The first and most important feature of groups is the fact that groups are not constituted according to the wish and choice of their members. Groups are constituted by the teacher, who selects types which, from the point of view of his aims, can be useful to one another.

"No work of groups is possible without a teacher. The work of groups with a wrong teacher can produce only negative results.

"The next important feature of group work is that groups may be connected with some aim of which those who are beginning work in them have no idea whatever and which cannot even be explained to them until they understand the essence and the principles of the work and the ideas connected with it. But this aim towards which without knowing it they are going, and which they are serving, is the necessary balancing principle in their own work. Their first task is to understand this aim, that is, the aim of the teacher. When they have understood this aim, although at first not fully, their own work becomes more conscious and consequently can give better results. But, as I have already said, it often happens that the aim of the teacher cannot be explained at the beginning.

"Therefore, the first aim of a man beginning work in a group should be self-study. The work of self-study can proceed only in properly organized groups. One man alone cannot see himself. But when a certain number of people unite together for this purpose they will even involuntarily help one another. It is a common characteristic of human nature that a man sees the faults of others more easily than he sees his own. At the same time on the path of self-study he learns that he himself possesses all the faults that he finds in others. But there are many things that he does not see in himself, whereas in other people he begins to see them. But, as I have just said, in this case he knows that these features are his own. Thus other members of the group serve him as mirrors in which he sees himself. But, of course, in order to see himself in other people's faults and not merely to see the faults of others, a man must be very much on his guard against {himself}and be very sincere with himself.

"He must remember that he is not one; that one part of him is the man who wants to awaken and that the other part is 'Ivanov,' 'Petrov,' or 'Zakharov,' who has no desire whatever to awaken and who has to be awakened by force.

"A group is usually a pact concluded between the I's of a certain group of people to make a common struggle against 'Ivanov,' 'Petrov,' and 'Zakharov,' that is, against their own 'false personalities.'

"Let us take Petrov. Petrov consists of two parts—'I' and 'Petrov.' But 'I' is powerless against 'Petrov.' 'Petrov' is the master. Suppose there are twenty people; twenty 'I's' now begin to struggle against one 'Petrov.' They may now prove to be stronger than he is. At any rate they can spoil his sleep; he will no longer be able to sleep as peacefully as he did before. And this is the whole aim.

"Furthermore, in the work of self-study one man begins to accumulate material resulting from self-observation. Twenty people will have twenty times as much material. And every one of them will be able to use the whole of this material because the exchange of observations is one of the purposes of the group's existence.

"When a group is being organized its members have certain conditions put before them; in the first place, conditions general for all members, and secondly, individual conditions for individual members.

"General conditions at the beginning of the work are usually of the following kind. First of all it is explained to all the members of a group that they must keep secret everything they hear or learn in the group and not only while they are members of it but forever afterwards.

"This is an indispensable condition whose idea should be clear to them from the very beginning. In other words, it should be clear to them that in this there is no attempt whatever to make a secret of what is not essentially a secret, neither is there any deliberate intention to deprive them of the right to exchange views with those near to them or with their friends.

"The idea of this restriction consists in the fact that they are unable to transmit correctly what is said in the groups. They very soon begin to learn from their own personal experience how much effort, how much time, and how much explaining is necessary in order to grasp what is said in groups. It becomes clear to them that they are unable to give their friends a right idea of what they have learned themselves. At the same time also they begin to understand that by giving their friends wrong ideas they shut them off from any possibility of approaching the work at any time or of understanding anything in connection with the work, to say nothing of the fact that in this way they are creating very many difficulties and even very much unpleasantness for themselves in the future. If a man in spite of this tries to transmit what he hears in groups to his friends he will very quickly be convinced that attempts in this direction give entirely unexpected and undesirable results. Either people begin to argue with him and without wanting to listen to him expect him to listen to their theories, or they misinterpret everything he tells them, attach an entirely different meaning to everything they hear from him. In seeing this and understanding the uselessness of such attempts a man begins to see one aspect of this restriction.

"The other and no less important side consists in the fact that it is very difficult for a man to keep silent about things that interest him. He would like to speak about them to everyone with whom he is accustomed to share his thoughts, as he calls it. This is the most mechanical of all desires and in this case silence is the most difficult abstinence of all. But if a man understands this or, at least, if he follows this rule, it will constitute for him the best exercise possible for self-remembering and for the development of will. Only a man who can be silent when it is necessary can be master of himself.

"But for many people it is very difficult to reconcile themselves to the thought that one of their chief characteristics consists in undue talkativeness, especially for people who are accustomed to regard themselves as serious or sound persons, or for those who regard themselves as silent persons who are fond of solitude and reflection. And for this reason this demand is especially important. In remembering about this and in carrying it out, a man begins to see sides of himself which he never noticed before.

"The next demand which is made of the members of a group is that they must tell the teacher of the group the .whole truth.

"This also must be clearly and properly understood. People do not realize what a big place in their lives is occupied by lying or even if only by the suppression of the truth. People are unable to be sincere either with themselves or with others. They do not even understand that to learn to be sincere when it is necessary is one of the most difficult things on earth. They imagine that to speak or not to speak the truth, to be or not to be sincere, depends upon them. Therefore they have to learn this and learn it first of all in relation to the teacher of the work. Telling the teacher a deliberate lie, or being insincere with him, or suppressing something, makes their presence in the group completely useless and is even worse than being rude or uncivil to him or in his presence.

"The next demand made of members of a group is that they must remember why they came to the group. They came to learn and to work on themselves and to learn and to work not as they understand it themselves but as they are told to. If, therefore, once they are in the group, they begin to feel or to express mistrust towards the teacher, to criticize his actions, to find that they understand better how the group should be conducted and especially if they show lack of external considering in relation to the teacher, lack of respect for him, asperity, impatience, tendency to argument, this at once puts an end to any possibility of work, for work is possible only as long as people remember that they have come to learn and not to teach.

"If a man begins to distrust the teacher, the teacher becomes unnecessary to him and he becomes unnecessary to the teacher. And in this event it is better for him to go and look for another teacher or try to work without one. This will do him no good, but in any case it will do less harm than lying, suppression, or resistance, or mistrust of the teacher.

"In addition to these fundamental demands it is of course presumed that the members of the group must work. If they merely frequent the group and do no work but merely imagine that they are working, or if they regard as work their mere presence in the group, or, as often happens, if they look upon their presence in the group as a pastime, if they make pleasant acquaintances, and so on, then their presence in the group likewise becomes completely useless. And the sooner they are sent away or leave of their own accord the better it will be for them and for the others.

"The fundamental demands which have been enumerated provide the material for rules which are obligatory for all members of a group. In the first place rules help everyone who wants to work to avoid everything that may hinder him or do harm to his work, and secondly they help him to remember himself.

"It very often happens that at the beginning of the work the members of a group do not like some or other of the rules. And they even ask: Can we not work without rules? Rules seem to them to be an unnecessary constraint on their freedom or a tiresome formality, and to be reminded about rules seems to them to be ill will or dissatisfaction on the part of the teacher.

"In reality rules are the chief and the first help that they get from the work. It stands to reason that rules do not pursue the object of affording them amusement or satisfaction or of making things more easy for them. Rules pursue a definite aim: to make them behave as they would behave 'if they were,' that is, if they remembered themselves and realized how they ought to behave with regard to people outside the work, to people in the work, and to the teacher. If they remembered themselves and realized this, rules would not be necessary for them. But they are not able to remember themselves and understand this at the beginning of work, so that rules are indispensable, although rules can never be either easy, pleasant, or comfortable. On the contrary, they ought to be difficult, unpleasant, and uncomfortable; otherwise they would not answer their purpose. Rules are the alarm clocks which wake the sleeping man.
 

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