finding partners...

[luke wilson]

Then why is my idea of who I am plagued by what I can only guess to be feelings of shame when all I did was just live my life and accept it the way it was as it was.

Shame seems more to do with the pain / fear associated with a mental construct, rather than a whole emotion in itself if that makes sense. It implies that one thinks oneself faulty in some way, that there's 'something wrong with me'. I think you're right to look toward society / 'education' in general for the root of it.

Maybe you could look at it as a part of the predators mind, the thing that keeps us in our place. As such, when those thoughts arise, you could counter them from the part of you which knows better and can reason. It's the being your own parent/coach thing, sometimes we have to keep talking ourselves through these glitches until the message finally sinks in.

Little by little it can change, but we have to keep up with the positive self parenting where unwelcome thoughts take up too much head space. There's only a limited amount of space up there, and for something new to come in we have to somehow make some room.

Slightly diverting from the issue of sex, I can say there are 3, maybe 4 things that in my life have converged to create the edifice that I experience as shame. Both have roots extending back to different periods in time depending on when to have been one of these things was not looked upon favourably by society

1) Wealth. This mainly took root way back when I was at school. My parents took me to a private school when I was super young. We weren't rich as evidenced by the lack of stuff we had, compared to my peers. Immediately, boom, the kid is made to feel less compared to his peers. All those school trips you can't go to, all the stuff you can't have, your dad coming to pick you up in a run-down car compared to the flash cars all the other kids get picked up with etc...

2) Race. When I was growing up this wasn't a problem as I grew up in a place where I wasn't a minority, nor was race a thing there anyways. But in the western world, it's a whole different ballgame and this game never stops to give you a breather.

3) Virgin. Obviously at some point boys started chasing girls. I didn't and for awhile I was fine. But with age and mounting invisible and not-so-invisible pressure, this drives home. Sometimes I think I experience sexual energy differently, because it has never been to me as to make me run around like a headless chicken to satisfy a feeling. No matter how beautiful or desirable a girl is, as soon as you open your mouth to talk to them, it becomes dangerously apparent they are a whole human being and not just a thing to satisfy your desire. No different to a boy and I wouldn't go out of my way to sleep with a boy! At this point I just can't act anymore. I am not asexual, not at all, I just can't deal with another human being sexually. How people do this I have zero-idea. To my eyes, it seems sexuality is the most powerful drive in people, in determining their actions, their persona's, their clothes etc, but to me, it just seems not to be as powerful, at least not as powerful as to drive action that is consistent and sustained. It's amazingly easy to just disconnect from it, it's not suppression, it's just that it doesn't connect with the wires that drive action so relentlessly. It's an enigma. Other emotions have driven crazy action in me, emotions such as anger, frustration, joy etc, but sexual desire, to satisfy it, to experience it with another person, a wire somewhere seems to be disconnected. The signal is being sent, but the message is not getting through.

4) Intelligence. I am not dumb, but I am not intellectual. I did intellectual subjects though such as the sciences etc. I was placed relatively highly in my classes, but I was never intelligent really, at least compared to the truly intelligent. To always doubt your intelligence, drives at you, especially when the education system was driven by exam grades.

The above 4 converge to deadly effect. Most of the above are not even thoughts, they are my reality. My parents are not wealthy, I am not wealthy, I am a minority, I am a virgin, I am not that intelligent. These are irrefutable facts.

How to fight shame when you are faced by such overwhelming facts that converge to such deadly effect? These feelings were not driven in by someone shouting them at me... they were driven in slowly, silently, over time, by words unspoken, through the senses, through experience, through unspoken expectations. Before I knew it, I experienced myself wholly differently from how I should have.

Anyways, it seemed like french to me before, but I've decided to start reading fear of the abyss in the hope of uncovering and undoing this silent and hidden plague in me. I will also try to be conscious to the voice in my head.

 

[sarahelizabeth]

Here is my story... I hope it helps :)

My partner is a FOTCM member and had been for a while before we got together. He is incredibly intelligent, like a lot of you - far beyond my current comprehension.

I moved in with him (as a friend initially) and he planted lots and lots of seeds over the year we lived together (we've moved to separate houses now for multiple reasons, but this has helped our relationship flourish).

I was already what I considered to be very spiritual and "awake".. On a path of knowledge about the universe, into conspiracy theories, natural therapies, crystals, etc.

I was a smoker before moving in with him too, so the info that smoking is GOOD for you, well that instantly made me happy (although slightly sceptical)!!
Once I saw the video on SoTT "Let's all Light up", I was totally sold on the benefits of smoking. Win!

He continued planting, fertilising, gardening up a storm in my little mind. Urging me to learn & question myself (as an anxiety ridden young woman this has been helpful on multiple levels).

Seeds, seeds, seeds until he thought I was ready to hear words like "the lizzies" & "ufos".

Initially - I thought he was crazy. I mean, I always thought about UFO's, of course there is more out there than just us, but lizard beings that control us?! Pft! You're kidding!

He urged me more and more to learn. He knew I was already searching for truth, but as stated in the first post - how do you tell someone the truth who's been blinded by lies for so long?!

It wasn't instant, it took a lot of time & I'm so glad that he helped me wake up and led me to FOTCM.

In my experience (or rather, my partner's experience) - it is helpful to find someone who is already on a hunt for the truth, someone maybe a little spiritual, use your inner guidance & discernment to sense if they're worth it.

Slowly introduce them to the concepts, plant lots of seeds, get them to question them self more and more, it took my partner a year but it payed off for the both of us. I couldn't be more thankful.

I can tell you, it wasn't easy for him. I think he suffered a lot of attacks through me over this time.

The mental conflict I was going through made me an easy target for the lizzies and he suffered greatly.

 

[Neil]

What's so shameful about being a virgin and whose business is it anyway? I'm 26 and I'm a virgin. So what? This is just another symptom of a ponerized society that is way too preoccupied with sex. Usually when I'm asked this question, it's because someone is sizing me up for a relationship or trying to "set me up." In this case, I always tell the truth. It's led to a couple of little jabs here and there, but nothing too malicious. No one really ever considered it a problem, in fact I got the opposite reaction most of the time. On a couple of occasions, when asked by guys who like to boast about their sexual exploits, I answer "Why do you care? It's none of your concern, now get lost." They will try and respond with little innuendos to try and make you feel bad, but usually they kind of left me alone after I flashed them a little anger and then refused to pay them any mind. That's the only situation where I've felt like maybe I should lie.

The thing about not running around like a headless chicken gave me a bit of a chuckle. I agree, from my mid teen years I wondered how sex could be considered such a beautiful part of love yet how it could be reconciled with the debauchery and filth that was around me. I sort of had a feeling that it could be a sacred act if consciously directed, an idea that was further developed from reading the Cassiopaea site and related materials. It's funny, I can have the most vivid and erotic fantasies laying here at home, but when sex has been offered to me or hinted at I have like zero libido. There's a little voice in my bosom that says, "No, this isn't the right person, don't do it." I've equated that little voice with the Real I, which knows exactly who my real partner is supposed to be if such a person even exists. You may be a little nervous when you meet "the one," but I don't think that little voice will be telling me, "this is wrong," in that case. I never had any feelings for any of the people who were sexually attracted to me, it just felt so shallow and animalistic, and if I can't feel that flow I can't really get aroused.

Personally, I've kind of closed the book on romantic relationships, they so seldom work out and I've seen many people disintegrate into terrible living arrangements due to enslavement to sex, basically. Maybe I could make better, more conscious choices, but it's a long shot and I think I would have to be a man number 5 before I would stand a chance of really being able to sort out all of the moving pieces and have anything to offer to my partner in the esoteric sense. I've seen some relationships blow up on this very forum and quite frankly that scares me. Gotta be across that 2nd threshold and really have a good grip on where things are going in relation to your machine before your relationships can be anything but mechanical, I think. Some people seem to make it regardless, but that's kind of relying on the Law of Accident, which is not something I would do. The universe may yet surprise me, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Menna]

Slightly diverting from the issue of sex, I can say there are 3, maybe 4 things that in my life have converged to create the edifice that I experience as shame. Both have roots extending back to different periods in time depending on when to have been one of these things was not looked upon favourably by society

1) Wealth. This mainly took root way back when I was at school. My parents took me to a private school when I was super young. We weren't rich as evidenced by the lack of stuff we had, compared to my peers. Immediately, boom, the kid is made to feel less compared to his peers. All those school trips you can't go to, all the stuff you can't have, your dad coming to pick you up in a run-down car compared to the flash cars all the other kids get picked up with etc...

2) Race. When I was growing up this wasn't a problem as I grew up in a place where I wasn't a minority, nor was race a thing there anyways. But in the western world, it's a whole different ballgame and this game never stops to give you a breather.

3) Virgin. Obviously at some point boys started chasing girls. I didn't and for awhile I was fine. But with age and mounting invisible and not-so-invisible pressure, this drives home. Sometimes I think I experience sexual energy differently, because it has never been to me as to make me run around like a headless chicken to satisfy a feeling. No matter how beautiful or desirable a girl is, as soon as you open your mouth to talk to them, it becomes dangerously apparent they are a whole human being and not just a thing to satisfy your desire. No different to a boy and I wouldn't go out of my way to sleep with a boy! At this point I just can't act anymore. I am not asexual, not at all, I just can't deal with another human being sexually. How people do this I have zero-idea. To my eyes, it seems sexuality is the most powerful drive in people, in determining their actions, their persona's, their clothes etc, but to me, it just seems not to be as powerful, at least not as powerful as to drive action that is consistent and sustained. It's amazingly easy to just disconnect from it, it's not suppression, it's just that it doesn't connect with the wires that drive action so relentlessly. It's an enigma. Other emotions have driven crazy action in me, emotions such as anger, frustration, joy etc, but sexual desire, to satisfy it, to experience it with another person, a wire somewhere seems to be disconnected. The signal is being sent, but the message is not getting through.

4) Intelligence. I am not dumb, but I am not intellectual. I did intellectual subjects though such as the sciences etc. I was placed relatively highly in my classes, but I was never intelligent really, at least compared to the truly intelligent. To always doubt your intelligence, drives at you, especially when the education system was driven by exam grades.

The above 4 converge to deadly effect. Most of the above are not even thoughts, they are my reality. My parents are not wealthy, I am not wealthy, I am a minority, I am a virgin, I am not that intelligent. These are irrefutable facts.

Lets see...

1) There are 5 parts of my town I grew up in the "poor" part of my town. Smaller houses, smaller yards, no flashy cars and so on...

2) I was a virgin until I was 25. I have had 3 partners since then two were relationships and one was a "hook up" felt really bad about "the hook" up because my intentions were not good. Also having sex with a person you care about is not the same as with a person you don't because of these sexual and relationship experiences I know what is worth it for me and what feels right for my being. I havent had sex in just about two years Perfectly fine with it because I would rather (now this is a conscious choice) wait to be intimate with someone I care about know on a deeper level than just have sex. I meet attractive girls all the time talk, joke, do things with them but it doesn't built towards sex because it hasn't organically evolved. If you are afraid of sex constantly relating to women with only your intellectual center you will not relate to them fully and will always think something is off because there is. In reality I carry more shame or lets say regret in the "hook up" sex than when I was a virgin. However now the way I connect with women post virgin is totally different than pre virgin I connect mentally, emotionally and physically even without sex. If sex happens it happens if not perfectly fine. But there is no emotional/mental block when relating/interacting with them its a great relaxing state to be in.

3) Intelligence. I was forced to take Ritalin when I was younger because I was "slow" compared to others and forced to see 2 psychologists.

4) I was mentally abused when I was 13 I repressed it and didn't remember it until I was 27.

Now I could say ... The above 4 converge to deadly effect. Most of the above are not even thoughts, they are my reality. My parents are not wealthy, I am not wealthy, I was abused, I was a virgin more 90% of my life, I am not that intelligent. These are irrefutable facts.

Or I could have the WILL to change my reality move on start a life in California away from family, work in finance, find an apartment in downtown San diego, work in entertainment on the weekends and be the happiest I have been in over 10 years because I wasn't afraid to let go of the BULLSHIT past I would be lying if I said that thoughts or memories don't pop into my head but they don't have a hold on me and the emotion they envoke in me I could say is crippling or I could say makes me softer, understanding and richer. Its important to Live life, make mistakes, own up to them, learn and move on with life. Your past is only your current reality if you choose to carry that reality with you. There is a difference between forgetting and letting go I havent forgot but I have let go. On this site you learn different info gain different perspectives this is all new however it won't change your being as well as it should if you carry around this crap with you the way you do. There is duality in EVERYTHING you are looking at your four facts from negative duality. We can always change two things our attitude and attention.

1) You and I weren't wealthy. Ok so you will never have to live that lifestyle you don't have to stress to make millions because thats not the life you are use to. You can be comfortable with less. You can value the small things the things money cant buy.

2) Not a minority ok you didn't personally have to deal with racism - good

3) Virgin - You get to know yourself and connect with people on a different level. I have 3 amazing life long friends who I talk/txt just about everyday because we were all virgins into our 20's im sure if we were sexually active in middle or high school our friendships would not have been as strong. I am sure you can find possitives to being a virgin. When you do have sex you will really be able to see the difference and study yourself even more.

4) intelligence you were placed high in your class you understand the concepts on this forum but your not intelligent

To be honest its sad to read how mean you are to yourself. I think its great you don't have a partner yet because like attracts like there would be two people that are not nice to themselves together

Its important for people to want to be the best version of themselves. We have the emotional, mental and physical information here that enables us to be the best version of ourself there is really no excuse.

 

[RedFox]

Slightly diverting from the issue of sex, I can say there are 3, maybe 4 things that in my life have converged to create the edifice that I experience as shame. Both have roots extending back to different periods in time depending on when to have been one of these things was not looked upon favourably by society

1) Wealth.

2) Race.

3) Virgin.

4) Intelligence.

The above 4 converge to deadly effect. Most of the above are not even thoughts, they are my reality. My parents are not wealthy, I am not wealthy, I am a minority, I am a virgin, I am not that intelligent. These are irrefutable facts.

How to fight shame when you are faced by such overwhelming facts that converge to such deadly effect? These feelings were not driven in by someone shouting them at me... they were driven in slowly, silently, over time, by words unspoken, through the senses, through experience, through unspoken expectations. Before I knew it, I experienced myself wholly differently from how I should have.

Rather than overwhelming facts, you should consider the emotional component here.
To the brain the pain of rejection really hurts, and as all of the above are related to social connection on some level (specifically social judgement by others) what you have most likely run into is the pain of such situations.
The next useful question might be, from who or what did you learn these expectations? If they are from parents/family, you will run into the same pain of social rejection if you where to try and get rid of this conditioning. By not following these rules the brain registers pain. Even just thinking about that or perhaps even just reading this could trigger the same pain.
So the last question is, how does this pain manifest? Do you find your narrative going and a desire to reply instantly? Do you find yourself craving a particular person or substance (sugar)? What is your body and mind doing right now?

From a personal perspective I was a virgin until my late 20's, and I ended it from a position of desperation and despair. It was such a huge thing in my mind, and in the end the emotions around it didn't go away.
When you see yourself as different (even if it's real or imagined) you hit the same pain again, and what I was really desperate to do was get rid of this pain. For me 'being a virgin' was the source of this pain and so loosing my virginity seemed to be the answer.
In short, if you judge yourself based on social norms you can easily generate massive amounts of internal pain just by thinking about 'how different' you are. You may not even be aware of the pain (I wasn't at the time) only the thoughts/narratives/behaviors. Sometimes you may be aware of discomfort and anxiety.
Part of growing up and more so part of the Work is realizing that most of the judgement we hold about ourselves are completely mistaken, not based in reality and instilled by this negative society and narcissistic parenting. So we need to own them and make our own choices.
Be responsible for what we choose to indulge in as best we can, or just share that our thought loops are running again and we're not sure why and can't stop them.

The sex drive is a powerful force, and unless you have a hormonal imbalance it will be driving you. It is however directed by social norms (programming) that inflict pain on you if you deviate from them. The energy has to go somewhere (it is a motive force and a very strong one at that) so can come out in all sort of other behavior completely unrelated to sex and sexuality if you are unaware of it.

 

[luke wilson]

Clearly there is alot to think about here.

What's so shameful about being a virgin?

According to this article, in american society, only 5% of males and females between the ages of 25-29 haven't had sex.The article also links a study done by the cdc. Both in the UK and US, the average age of losing virginity is below 20. Google has numerous entries of many virgins as young as 18 seeking validation that being a virgin is normal. Clearly it is not inconceivable for people not to feel worried about this.

Probably those who don't worry are even further into the minority, especially in this society!

Anyways, my point is that, shame, in this case, is not an unnatural condition.

The next useful question might be, from who or what did you learn these expectations?

I'll have a good think about this.

To be honest its sad to read how mean you are to yourself.

Yes and No regarding the meanness. Look at your profile pic menna. You didn't get to appear that way by being lazy. I definitely don't have the fortitude to do that sort of physical exercise. But I do have the fortitude to do other forms of exercise. In some other ways, I am hard on myself, only because I want to be better.

I'll take your words though menna, because you are winning...

The below means you are winning... ahead of the curve.... I have no choice but to take your words.

I have had 3 partners since then two were relationships and one was a "hook up" felt really bad about "the hook" up because my intentions were not good. Also having sex with a person you care about is not the same as with a person you don't because of these sexual and relationship experiences I know what is worth it for me and what feels right for my being. I havent had sex in just about two years Perfectly fine with it because I would rather (now this is a conscious choice) wait to be intimate with someone I care about know on a deeper level than just have sex. I meet attractive girls all the time talk, joke, do things with them but it doesn't built towards sex because it hasn't organically evolved. If you are afraid of sex constantly relating to women with only your intellectual center you will not relate to them fully and will always think something is off because there is. In reality I carry more shame or lets say regret in the "hook up" sex than when I was a virgin. However now the way I connect with women post virgin is totally different than pre virgin I connect mentally, emotionally and physically even without sex. If sex happens it happens if not perfectly fine. But there is no emotional/mental block when relating/interacting with them its a great relaxing state to be in.

Your position allows you the freedom of reflection. You can say this, you can say that... doesn't matter. Some call it privilege. I can only say one thing, and as you say, since I am not 'post-virgin', I am blind to that world.

I added the term winning... is it a competition? No, not really... but yes, it also is. I am competing not to lose, against the unspoken forces around me... from a supposed position of weakness... not to lose... from being poor, put in a rich environment, from being a virgin put in an environment where promiscuity is celebrated, from being not intelligent put in an environment surrounded by intellectuals, from a minority put in an environment not favourable to minorities... I can be on the back-foot but still stand my ground and not secede, not against these forces. I'll bear the pressure and not let it crash me. Who is it a competition against.. no one really. Why did you build those muscles? For anyone? No!

I won't lie though, and say I feel nothing, I feel the pressure. On multiple fronts. I am not numb. To be weak, but to be strong, this is my aim in life. In a world that demands you must be strong, to be weak and still stand your ground against the strong, well, is there any other measure of strength?

Anyways, regarding the whole virgin thing, my whole thing was getting to a position where it doesn't hold power over me, at least in terms of revelation i.e. talking about it with others.

What I did find though is that I have shame, which is something I experience mostly unconsciously. But I think it's a natural state given the context I was in. It grew naturally. It was not unnatural. Now I can start the slow process of dealing with it.

 

[Neil]

According to this article, in american society, only 5% of males and females between the ages of 25-29 haven't had sex.

To which, once again I will ask, So What? I don't want to be like everyone else, sleepwalking their way to oblivion, where everything just "happens" to them, and their lives end where they began because they never made a conscious choice through any of it and then oops! Reincarnate and do it all over again. I bet you less than 5% of males and females between the ages of 25-29 have any interest in going through the pain of trying to see reality as it really is and themselves as they really are so that after a long and painful lonely road they might have a chance of understanding what true love really is. I don't have any articles offhand to back up that claim though ;)

To be honest its sad to read how mean you are to yourself. I think its great you don't have a partner yet because like attracts like there would be two people that are not nice to themselves together

I have to agree here. When I read through your little checklist I got the impression that only rich white guys driving Bentleys with PhDs from Oxford are deserving of a partner. Oh, and they better be a real stallion too to keep their woman happy. Ok, I'm exaggerating a little, but not too much! Putting myself in that scenario, I imagined myself 20 years from now sitting in a study on my estate reading a book about how to be some aristocratic intellectual, while my wife, who only loves me for my money, is out buying another pearl necklace for her ballroom set. Surrounded by all the trappings of prestige and affluence, it suddenly dawns on me that none of this means anything because I spent my entire life trying to become the perfect bourgeoisie husband and so I could attract the perfect bourgeoisie wife and never did a single thing I really wanted to do. Here's my take on your 4 points:

1)You need enough to cover your own expenses, but you need to make do with what you have and if any potential partner is dissatisfied with the size of your place, they only want you for your money and they're not for you.
2)Ok, I will concede that when I go to places where I look different from everyone else, I do get slightly edgy. Race is very important to some people, so it lowers your "odds" but here again, if race is any consideration to a potential partner, they're not for you.
3)Sex is not what it's cracked up to be. It's a chemical high people use to feed their addictions and illusions. Someone who is interested in having real, loving sex with you is not concerned about your level of "experience" and wants to be with you because they like who you are.
4)I think that intellectualism is a double edged sword; being too intellectual without a correspondingly developed emotional center causes you to generally view every interaction through terms of a cost-benefit equation. If your math is good, this can make you quite successful in exterior life, but is a major impediment to true bonding. You can have all the degrees you want, but if you can't get in touch with your soul, it won't mean squat.

You seem to have this preoccupation with proving yourself as a "minority success story." To me, to borrow a quote posted by someone on my thread, "you're tilting windmills on the lonely plains of La Mancha."

Back to the virgin thing, I have a bit of a fixation on it as well, but coming from the opposite end of the spectrum. I don't know if sharing will be helpful for you at all, but here it goes...

I always believed that I should "save" myself for someone special and maintain my "purity" for them. I want the ecstatic experience that has inspired movies and poetry, not some gross grunting and sweating that even a dog could do. There can be no lies and no illusions going into it, the intent has to be as pure as possible, which I think requires a pretty far advanced state in the Work. What this inevitably leads to is fear of making a mistake. Losing my virginity to the wrong person would make me feel devalued, shamed. It would take all of my beautiful dreams and shatter them on the floor. I don't know if I could survive that. It has to be right the first time.

That's not to say I don't have impure thoughts, I'm tempted occasionally to settle for something less just to satisfy the biological urge. Then there's the fact that I don't really run into anyone I feel really compatible with. Even ones that have been a possibility have never panned out. There's a bunch of emotional crap from my past that would have to be dealt with pretty much up front, and I think I would be putting an unreasonable burden on the other person and I'd probably just screw the whole thing up. I'm also not at a stage in the work where I'm free from the General Law, and I know it will try to subvert any attempt I make at a conscious relationship. Attack has to be expected from many angles. I end up getting frustrated on several different levels.

Finally, love is supposed to be about giving. When I sit down in front of the Mirror and I ask myself what I really have to GIVE to a relationship, I really can't come up with a coherent answer. That's not a good sign and it suggests to me that I'm not ready. If such a person was to show up tomorrow, could I even handle it in a mature and thoughtful way?

So all of this leads to a sort of deep cynicism regarding relationships. I have all of these high ideals, but can't realize any of them. Maybe one day I'll be advanced enough to deal with this in a proper way. Maybe in the next life lol.

 

[MusicMan]

Back to the virgin thing, I have a bit of a fixation on it as well, but coming from the opposite end of the spectrum. I don't know if sharing will be helpful for you at all, but here it goes...

I always believed that I should "save" myself for someone special and maintain my "purity" for them. I want the ecstatic experience that has inspired movies and poetry, not some gross grunting and sweating that even a dog could do. There can be no lies and no illusions going into it, the intent has to be as pure as possible, which I think requires a pretty far advanced state in the Work. What this inevitably leads to is fear of making a mistake. Losing my virginity to the wrong person would make me feel devalued, shamed. It would take all of my beautiful dreams and shatter them on the floor. I don't know if I could survive that. It has to be right the first time.

You know, if every human on earth had such high ideals, there would never be any procreating done at all.
Every other creature on earth just gets stuck in and does the deed.
They know what it's all about.

Humans think too much about it, and set "values" on it.
For [insert deity of choice here]'s sake!

Edit=Quote

 

[luke wilson]

Thanks for that. Some of what you said was quite funny!

Also thanks for describing the 1% that rule the planet and set the agenda and top/down psychological structure that pervades the world. The people at the apex. To be contrasted from them is to feel the force of their power.

Proving myself as a minority success story! LOL! I can't argue against that without appearing either as denying my heritage or denying that I don't want success. But I'll be honest and simply say the statement isn't true. It can also read to prove myself as a dumb success story! or a poor success story! None of these statements are true. What is true is proving to myself I can be an oppositional success story! It requires work. The 4th way itself is oppositional to the general law. The law that rules our world. It's all a struggle, it's not success achieved, it's ongoing, against the grain! One could argue it can never be success achieved, but instead continual struggle. A state of perpetual struggle.

My mum always says it's better to have all the spoilings of success and be lost, than to be poor and to be lost! :D

Do you reckon it's a waste of energy to pay some of this stuff lip service? Now we've spoken about it, I think we've covered enough ground. But do you reckon it was worth it to begin with? Sometimes I get the impression I have a tendency to pay certain things lip service that maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should struggle with them internally, privately.

Thanks, so much to think about! And Neil, it's not like you aren't on the same path. I just talk about it way more.

 

[Alada]

Do you reckon it's a waste of energy to pay some of this stuff lip service? Now we've spoken about it, I think we've covered enough ground. But do you reckon it was worth it to begin with? Sometimes I get the impression I have a tendency to pay certain things lip service that maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should struggle with them internally, privately.

No I think it’s good to discuss such things as a way of more accurately identifying the roots of our programs. As you said yourself, you now have a clearer idea and can work on finding ways to deal with what’s come up. The struggle comes after, once you have the data and use the knowledge to reason with yourself, it becomes a useful struggle.

To do it internally without networking at all about something which is a deep rooted program would be a useless struggle I think. Or at least a very much longer one which may or may not have a result.

As long as we are actively reasoning, both here on the forum in our questions/discussion and in our internal dialogue and then all the better for ourselves and for everyone I think.

 

[luke wilson]

Food for thought Neil, consider you may have a puritan and idealised view of the whole thing. I suspect there is rather alot if grunting and sweat involved. We are animals after all. However, I get what you are saying, I think! The no compromise stance you've exercised, the images of idealised perfection you have.

Double edged sword! I suspect inexperience clouds the view as to the nuts and bolts of what it means to be in a relationship or simply to have sex for its own sake. Some say experience is the best teacher but some also sau you should learn from those who have walked the path before! Ultimately, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer... All paths lead to greater awareness, ultimately.

 

[Jenn]

According to this article, in american society, only 5% of males and females between the ages of 25-29 haven't had sex.The article also links a study done by the cdc. Both in the UK and US, the average age of losing virginity is below 20. Google has numerous entries of many virgins as young as 18 seeking validation that being a virgin is normal. Clearly it is not inconceivable for people not to feel worried about this.

FWIW losing your virginity before 20 isn't all it's cracked up to be! I have to say I regretted it, for it not being with the 'right' 'perfect' person, the thing is who is the right person? The opposite of 'waiting for the perfect person' is you give yourself up to anyone which I don't think is particularly healthy either. IMO I think you're putting too much focus and energy onto the idea of sex, although I can understand that societal pressure is immense especially for our generation...

I found this quote by Gurdjeff that may or may not be helpful for putting things in perspective (apologies if it's already been mentioned)

Sex plays a tremendous role in maintaining the mechanicalness of life.
Everything that people do is connected with ‘sex’: politics, religion, art,
the theater, music, is all ‘sex.’ . . . What do you think brings people to
cafés, to restaurants, to various fetes? One thing only. Sex: it is the
principal motive force for all mechanicalness . . . Sex which exists by
itself and is not dependent on anything else is already a great achievement.
But the evil lies in the constant self-deception.

 

[Menna]

According to this article, in american society, only 5% of males and females between the ages of 25-29 haven't had sex.The article also links a study done by the cdc. Both in the UK and US, the average age of losing virginity is below 20. Google has numerous entries of many virgins as young as 18 seeking validation that being a virgin is normal. Clearly it is not inconceivable for people not to feel worried about this.

Probably those who don't worry are even further into the minority, especially in this society!

Anyways, my point is that, shame, in this case, is not an unnatural condition.

Why do you care about this stuff. This is all A influences that lead no where.

Look at your profile pic menna. You didn't get to appear that way by being lazy. I definitely don't have the fortitude to do that sort of physical exercise. But I do have the fortitude to do other forms of exercise. In some other ways, I am hard on myself, only because I want to be better.

Ok, and I don't have the fortitude to do other stuff that you do. I have a Post Masters as a Health and Wellness specialist. Wellness is a hobby of mine. I have used my knowledge and experiences to live the healthiest way I can. I am lazy in other aspects. What happens when being hard on yourself to be better turns on you and hinders your growth?

I'll take your words though menna, because you are winning...

The below means you are winning... ahead of the curve.... I have no choice but to take your words.

Its not about winning or losing or any one thing its about finding out about yourself enough to know what is good for you what you want and then living life learning from experiences to find out how to properly achieve the life you want. You will never objectively know and will forever live life one sided mostly from your intellectual center and therefor view situations from one duality. Life will be one sided. You have been talking about sex and what have you using different words but meaning the same thing for years now I believe its time to experience something different because you will just keep on jumping from one intellectual idea/thought to another.

Your position allows you the freedom of reflection. You can say this, you can say that... doesn't matter.

Some call it privilege

. I can only say one thing, and as you say, since I am not 'post-virgin', I am blind to that world.

I wouldn't call it privilege there was pain with those experiences however as a result of those experiences I am now a deeper person the experiences have touched/awakened things in me that are now alive. My position allows me to share my experience with others who I can only hope will be able to relate to it and be able to use it to better their life. I didn't have to say all these things to you however it was in hopes that you will see that my expeirences have been similar and IMO more drastic from a negative duality than yours however through making mistakes, owning up to them learnig and living life I came out on the other side ok when before I might have thought with my intellect I was ok or I knew what to do however before the experiences I was off.

I added the term winning... is it a competition? No, not really... but yes, it also is. I am competing not to lose, against the unspoken forces around me... from a supposed position of weakness... not to lose... from being poor, put in a rich environment, from being a virgin put in an environment where promiscuity is celebrated, from being not intelligent put in an environment surrounded by intellectuals, from a minority put in an environment not favourable to minorities... I can be on the back-foot but still stand my ground and not secede, not against these forces. I'll bear the pressure and not let it crash me. Who is it a competition against.. no one really. Why did you build those muscles? For anyone? No!

I won't lie though, and say I feel nothing, I feel the pressure. On multiple fronts. I am not numb. To be weak, but to be strong, this is my aim in life. In a world that demands you must be strong, to be weak and still stand your ground against the strong, well,

is there any other measure of strength?

Luke these "forces" have more control over you when you don't have knowledge or expeirence and are not able to see the world as it really is. Without the neccisary experiences you will not be able to assimilate all the knowledge because you have not experienced what people are talking about. You will relate to the world from a one sided intellect you are doing more harm to yourself than these forces are IMO. Like I said I exercise because its a hobby of mine I enjoy it like many other things I do. The last few lines quoted sound like a battle cry however what armys do after a battle cry is go out and fight the battle not sit on the sidelines talking about how hard it will be or how society views battles as too barbaric or why they can't win blah blah blah.

There are many other measures of strength that would change the way you think about the word strength however you have to experience those ways I can't describe them to you.

 

[Menna]

I can be an oppositional success story!

Success story is subjective. Might want to write down what that means to you.

Sometimes I get the impression I have a tendency to pay certain things lip service that maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should struggle with them internally, privately

No, I get the impression that you know on one level that you pay things lip service that don't matter realize it with your intellectual center however intellectualize it and it comes out later down the road in different words and phrases but the same thing.

 

[luke wilson]

Thanks menna. I totally understand what you are saying.

I agree and disagree at the same time.

Experience is a double-edged sword. I can still have an opinion without experience.

For example, war! I have never been to one, but I can have an opinion on war. I can imagine what it is like to be a soldier sent to war. Or now that it's voting season, I can imagine about voting. I never vote yet I have an opinion on voting. But some people will argue unless you participate, you can't have an opinion, that you are only intellectualizing.

I don't think everything has to be experienced to be known.

I think that's a dangerous line to take. There are somethings that you can never take back and if you make a wrong choice in those things, you have to live with it the rest of your life. Life will continue, life will go on, it won't be the end of the world, but I think there is a price to pay in certain things, a price that will have to be paid no matter what. I don't wish to get into a contract without knowing the terms hidden in the small print.

It can sound like a broken record every year to periodically talk about 'sex', 'partners' etc, but that's only because I'm human and humans are social creatures and want those things. That doesn't mean that we should just seek out experience for experience sake. Sure all there is, is lessons, but as I said, I don't want to be hit by a bill through the post to a transaction I made that I failed to read the small print. The PTB would not be driving the program of promiscuity so hard if it weren't for nothing! I have no bloody idea what it is for but I know enough to not just jump in.

If I end up having sex with more than just 1 person, I know I took a wrong turn somewhere! But life will continue, there are no hard and fast rules... but I still believe there are prices to pay and I want to bloody minimize the cost of my existence! I have no proof of this though but I've heard enough to know it ain't all for free even-though it may feel that way. Maybe that's the economist in me talking.

Between experience and lipservice, I think lipservice is the cheaper option until I know I'm signing up for experience that is the right deal if you will! I don't wish to get my energies tangled up intimately with another person that I end up picking up their godforsaken burdens without knowing what the hell I am picking up that I have to work through or how much work it'll take to get through it!