finding partners...

[Menna]

I don't think everything has to be experienced to be known.

I did not say that (black/white) however there are definitely certain things that to be understood FULLY experience is needed. Again I think the point is missed experience coupled with knowledge leads to balance/change in being greater understanding.

It can sound like a broken record every year to periodically talk about 'sex', 'partners' etc, but that's only because I'm human and humans are social creatures and want those things. That doesn't mean that we should just seek out experience for experience sake.

Talking about a subject over and over again isn't what I was trying to get at. What I am saying is how and the way it is talked about is the key.

If I end up having sex with more than just 1 person, I know I took a wrong turn somewhere!

You can't control everything. Circumstances, people life changes and its not this or that persons fault it's life. This quoted sentence above kinda says it all. You allowed to be intimate with someone care for them share things and then down the road realize that you two are best as friends or apart. Say the person you have sex with dies. What then? Never get to know someone on that level again. The best part about having the two relationships is that now I know I can be better, know what matters and what doesn't how important it is to truly support someone that also supports you if sex is involved its involved if not than not. Who cares what's the big deal about having sex with a few people because you cared about them it lead to it but they fell out of your life? It's clear that you have a secred cow when it comes to sex and is keeping you one sided. I'm not saying go out and hire a prostitute I'm saying be realistic.

 

[Neil]

You know, if every human on earth had such high ideals, there would never be any procreating done at all.
Every other creature on earth just gets stuck in and does the deed.
They know what it's all about.

Humans think too much about it, and set "values" on it.
For [insert deity of choice here]'s sake!

I think it is a bit more nuanced than that. The devil is in the details. "Every other creature" is a prisoner of the General Law. As Thorn quoted

Sex: it is the
principal motive force for all mechanicalness . . . Sex which exists by itself and is not dependent on anything else is already a great achievement. But the evil lies in the constant self-deception.

Mouravieff speaks of three different Absolutes or sets of cosmic laws which serve a purpose to maintain the cosmos. These Absolutes all radiate love in their own way to all the creatures throughout the Ray of Creation. The Absolute I is the love of the creator. It is the gift of life that pervades all entities from the most spiritual to the least.(7th density) Mouravieff defines the love of the Absolute II in terms of a duality of creation emanated in perfect equilibrium. In my view, this level corresponds to STS and STO. The Absolute III maintains biospheres and ecosystems through the pleasure of sexual reproduction. He goes on to say that this third Absolute maintains the General Law, in order to keep organisms in their place so that worlds remain balanced. Now these Absolutes are all nested within each other so that the lower ones increase the mechanicalness of the divine love emanated by the higher one to a level appropriate to the cosmoses that they govern, but that the original energy from the Absolute I is still passed through in some form.

Our world is governed by the many mechanical laws of the Absolute III, which is in alignment with the STS expression of the Absolute II, creating all of the problems that we know about. However, the STO energy is still offered and presented as a choice. Those wishing to utilize the Law of Exception to escape the mechanical domination of the Absolute III can choose to absorb as many B influences as possible in order to master their machine and cross the third threshold into the Deuterocosmos(which I think corresponds to 4D in Mouravieff's cosmology) Now, for personal reasons I posted on another thread, I think sex still exists on the next density, albeit in a more energetic form, but even if it doesn't, we live in 3D under the sway of the Absolute III's laws, we are subject to their influence even though we may choose to transduce energy from the Absolute II.

So, to bring all of that abstract theory down to a practical level, sex that is done mechanically in service to the biological need to reproduce falls under the laws of the lower cosmos and the realm of A influences. However, the love archetype of the higher cosmos can be transduced through conscious sex (and even conscious procreation if that is the choice) which would simply be one possible expression out of many others in accordance with adapting the STO principles to our reality and using what energies you have to actualize that alignment. So let those who are happy to slumber under the influence of the Absolute III "just get stuck in and do the deed."

Getting back to the Gurdjieff quote, he kind of explains the whole deal with the Absolute III in a much more abbreviated way, and the way I read it, considers sex which exists outside of it to be a great achievement. When something is done consciously, even if it's something supposedly "base" like sex, it can be utilized to serve a higher aim. He then says that this is really only possible for advanced disciples, because self-deception has to be eliminated. Considering the sex drive is the #1 area of influence for the General Law, it is probably the hardest thing to be honest with yourself about. I would prefer to channel my libido toward a higher ideal. Hopefully that explains where I'm coming from without too much wiseacring on my part.

My mum always says it's better to have all the spoilings of success and be lost, than to be poor and to be lost!

Maybe, but what if the choice is to be poor and "found?" Of course, rich and found wouldn't be so bad...

Do you reckon it's a waste of energy to pay some of this stuff lip service? Now we've spoken about it, I think we've covered enough ground. But do you reckon it was worth it to begin with?

In my case yes, because I have some things to get off my chest too. We're both dealing with different facets of the same "beast." I would've never brought it up if you hadn't opened the channel, so to speak. I have a tendency to tell myself that no one is really interested in what I think about such personal subjects and that I shouldn't waste the space trying to dissect it. You were one of the people who told me to network, so here I am. You network about basically anything and everything and I've found myself thinking I should be more like you in that respect.

Food for thought Neil, consider you may have a puritan and idealised view of the whole thing. I suspect there is rather a lot of grunting and sweat involved.

I wasn't trying to say there wouldn't be or shouldn't be, but I think it stops there for a lot of people and that is like floor 1 of a 100 story building.

Some say experience is the best teacher but some also sau you should learn from those who have walked the path before!

Yes, I agree, Laura talks quite a bit about relationships in Amazing Grace and was basically at the same age dealing with the same sorts of issues. I studied that book because it gave a good preview of the various futures that would result from the choices available to me. I'd rather avoid going through all of the heartbreaks and disintegrations and learn those lessons early. Hopefully I'm smart enough to figure it out.

If I end up having sex with more than just 1 person, I know I took a wrong turn somewhere!

It may surprise you, coming from "Mr. Perfection" here, but I don't necessarily think this is the case. I remember Mouravieff speaking of a situation where you encounter a being that is so close to your polar opposite that everything "feels" right and the potential for evolution is great, but it's not quite the best. This situation leads the both of you to your real polar opposites, where you can take your relationships even farther. This situation is not what I would consider a mistake. Also, I think you have multiple polar opposites and a lot of them become unavailable due to geography, career, tragedy, etc. leaving only a handful that are actually feasible. It just seems a bit naïve to think that over all of the eons that souls evolve, there is only one potential true soul mate in the entire universe for you. I mean, what if they incarnate on a different planet? Maybe you meet one of these potentials, but circumstances come up and you find that you've outgrown each other and have to move on. I'm sure there are many more possibilities than Mouravieff could speculate about. Ideally it would just be one person, but I do think there are other possibilities that are valid and not "mistakes."

What I was referring to as a mistake is falling head over heels for someone that I really have nothing in common with all because they knew how to push my buttons and got my "love bite" program running. I mean, what would you do if some cute little girl walks in and starts telling you about all this stuff she's been reading about hyperdimensional realities and how she's been looking for someone to share her time with, but she can't be with anyone because she's so weird...and then she turns out to be some kind of vampire who likes to string you along just so she can watch you suffer. Or a more subtle example is you find someone who is suffering and you take her under your wing and start telling her all of this stuff, and she kind of plays along because she likes you and wants you to stay, but you find out a couple years later that she was never really interested, never had any possibility of really understanding you, and the whole thing was just your White Knight program creating illusions about her. You made a relationship out of something that should've never been anything more than a friendship. That's the kind of mistakes I was worried about.

It can sound like a broken record every year to periodically talk about 'sex', 'partners' etc, but that's only because I'm human and humans are social creatures and want those things.

Yeah, I agree. I've honestly thought life would be much easier if these drives just left us alone, but being in my 20s, the subject just never does quite leave me alone. It has been helpful to me to find some possibility of being able to direct the drive to a higher purpose through the esoteric studies instead of having to choose between the two dead end answers that society gives, that being "Get laid! Orgasm is the meaning of life," and "It's sinful! repent now" On the flipside, I sometimes feel I don't really have any business thinking about this because a relationship isn't even on the horizon in my life and won't be for the foreseeable future. In practice, being able to use sex to fulfill a higher manifestation of the archetype of love is probably rare to the point of being nearly impossible. It would take a heck of a lot of discernment to be able to see when the right use of sex could be applied as Gurdjieff and Mouravieff repeatedly warn. Still, if I had that discernment and met someone who was sincerely asking, maybe giving them my virginity would be appropriate.

 

[RedFox]

I don't know if you saw this article on SoTT but I think it relates quite strongly to the entire topic.
The lack of gentle platonic touch in men's lives is a killer

[..]And where does this leave men? Physically and emotionally isolated. Cut off from the deeply human physical contact that is proven to reduce stress, encourage self esteem and create community. Instead, we walk in the vast crowds of our cities alone in a desert of disconnection. Starving for physical connection.

We crave touch. We are cut off from it. The result is touch isolation.

How often do men actually get the opportunity to express affection through long lasting platonic touch? How often does it happen between men? Or between men and women? Not a hand shake or a hug, but lasting physical contact between two people that is comforting and personal but not sexual. Between persons who are not lovers and never will be. Think, holding hands. Or leaning on each other. Sitting together. That sort of thing. Just the comfort of contact. And if you are a man, imagine a five minutes of contact with another man. How quickly does that idea raise the ugly specter of homophobia? And why?

While women are much freer to engage in physical contact with each other, men remain suspect when they touch others. There is only one space in our culture where long term platonic physical contact is condoned for men, and that is between fathers and their very young children.

I found this kind of physical connection when my son was born. As a stay at home dad, I spent years with my son. Day after day, he sat in the crook of my arm, his little arm across my shoulder, his hand on the back of my neck. As he surveyed the world from on high, I came to know a level of contentment and calm that had heretofore been missing in my life. The physical connection between us was so transformative that it changed my view of who I am and what my role is in the world. Yet it took having a child to bring this calming experience to me because so few other opportunities are possible to teach men the value and power of gentle loving touch. [..]

Not only do we men distrust others in this muddled realm of physical touch, years of shaming and judgement have left us distrusting ourselves. Did I enjoy that too much? Am I having taboo thoughts? This distrust leaves us uncertain about touching another human being unless we have established very clear rules of engagement. Often we give up and simply reduce those rules to being in a relationship. We allow ourselves long-lasting comforting touch with our girlfriends or boyfriends. The vast universe of platonic human touch is suddenly reduced to the exclusive domain of one person and is blended into the sexual. That's a lot of need to put on one person, however loving and generous they might be.

On that point:

According to this article, in american society, only 5% of males and females between the ages of 25-29 haven't had sex.The article also links a study done by the cdc. Both in the UK and US, the average age of losing virginity is below 20. Google has numerous entries of many virgins as young as 18 seeking validation that being a virgin is normal. Clearly it is not inconceivable for people not to feel worried about this.

Probably those who don't worry are even further into the minority, especially in this society!

Anyways, my point is that, shame, in this case, is not an unnatural condition.

Why do you care about this stuff. This is all A influences that lead no where.

For me (and I don't know if it is the same for Luke) it was stress and social isolation that spiraled into a negative self image. Social isolation -> stress -> belief I am wrong (shame), and should be isolated -> no relief from stress (craving human contact and touch to relieve the stress) -> I can't be near others because 'I am wrong'/it'll never happen (depression/no way out) -> craving, fixation, self rejection -> pain/stress -> craving etc

So for me it was 'extremely important'! I could see the mechanicalness of it and that I was a slave to it even before finding the Work. What I didn't know was what the underlying driving forces where, or what it was to be human.
I was disconnected from my emotions and fighting desperately to avoid the pain generated by all my internal judgments. The stress and pain makes everything black and white and you end up with depression and/or fixation of this 'magical thing that will fix you'.

So for some people it can be an extremely big deal. But it's not about sex really (even if there mind is fixated on that), but social connection/isolation and the stress/pain that generates. These come down to deeply internalized judgments - without the judgement there is less stress and pain, and thus less fixation (stress = black and white thinking/fixation) on sex of whatever else it may be (money, social status etc).

 

[Menna]

For me (and I don't know if it is the same for Luke) it was stress and social isolation that spiraled into a negative self image. Social isolation -> stress -> belief I am wrong (shame), and should be isolated -> no relief from stress (craving human contact and touch to relieve the stress) -> I can't be near others because 'I am wrong'/it'll never happen (depression/no way out) -> craving, fixation, self rejection -> pain/stress -> craving etc

So for me it was 'extremely important'! I could see the mechanicalness of it and that I was a slave to it even before finding the Work. What I didn't know was what the underlying driving forces where, or what it was to be human.
I was disconnected from my emotions and fighting desperately to avoid the pain generated by all my internal judgments. The stress and pain makes everything black and white and you end up with depression and/or fixation of this 'magical thing that will fix you'.

So for some people it can be an extremely big deal. But it's not about sex really (even if there mind is fixated on that), but social connection/isolation and the stress/pain that generates. These come down to deeply internalized judgments - without the judgement there is less stress and pain, and thus less fixation (stress = black and white thinking/fixation) on sex of whatever else it may be (money, social status etc).

It is a big deal when you don't realize it and its a big deal when you start to realize it however I feel in this thread things have been realized however "the big deal" mentality behind it is not let go. You describe the process perfectly and I believe the importance placed on sex in this thread is a front for the things you describe the deeper issues. At this point how how can one improve and grow? I don't think constantly talking theoretically about the same topic to cover up deeper issues helps at all. This doesn't really solve anything intellectually idealizing how sex "should be" Yes it's important to learn from seeing others mistakes its a famouse quote that has been around however if one can't learn on all levels from observation because it doesn't touch all their centers how do they grow in terms of the work? There's another expression "it looks worse than it is" The work is about living in life. Could constantly talking about the same topic on the computer be going against how the work is to be practiced? Basically what I am saying in a nutshell is there has been alot of energy on this topic lots of words and ideas that result in different psychological theories on whats right or how things should be. I thought we were here to learn lessons it's one big school not one big after school debate club.

Don't want to end this without saying I have learned alot from all of you and the discussions in this thread however I feel going around in this circle goes away from the work more than it goes toward it IMO. Thank you all for your help and advice I have learned alot through this topic.

 

[RedFox]

I think those are some important points Menna. I can look back and even if I knew all this back then (intellectually) I'd still be stuck in it 'being a big issue' and unable to move on.
Going through a relationship I learned that the issue still persisted in different forms.

It wasn't until I found the Work, started really trying to observe myself and putting things into practice did it start to form an understanding (using more than one center at once, not just intellect). It was only after doing that did the importance start to fade.
It can be small steps like just trying to catch a glimpse of yourself when these thoughts arise (or even just practicing remembering to self observe, so a habbit forms), practicing EE, being disciplined in small ways.
It's forming that gap between 'being in the state' and totally ruled by your emotions and hormones vs being able to see them in yourself and take a step back that really counts I think. And it is painful, stressful and requires effort and practice.

We get so rapped up in ourselves thinking this automatic thing is the entirety of our self. We then automatically run our judgments against this 'automatic self' and feel terrible! So that gap, the space we can take a wider view from and self observe is probably the first place to Work on should anyone still be trapped by these things.

 

[luke wilson]

I have to confess and say that this past week I have been dealing with stress, bordering on depression. The root is social connection/isolation. This discussion in this thread has been making me feel even more stressed/depressed.

I read the articles on sott and I was going to mention them acouple of days ago but felt bad about it. I wasn't going to mention them in a flattering light. They angered me really because they didn't have a solution. My relationship with all my guy friends bar 1 is all based on inanimate things. Things of no emotional consequence really. Most obviously direct there emotional needs to their girlfriends and through this avenue they can experience a fuller spectrum of human relations. This is not saying I wish to get touchy feely with men.

I have some female friends and find that I can only develop in friendship with a girl if we build an emotional connection. However, this in all cases has been stunted because at some point you feel this rush of energy that needs another form of release once you build up enough emotional steam. It becomes the elephant in the room that I dare not mention. Eventually this proves to be the mud that the relationship gets stuck in. Sometimes I get the impression that they might be thinking, why haven't you made a move on me etc but here in my mind I am thinking, I am not sure what to do and if they liked me that way, as they have more experience, they would let me know. Soon they will start talking about love and what it means to them, the ups/downs of their previous relationships. At this point I have nothing to share back and instead start playing a role. Eventually obviously they find a lover and I become their confidant, their friend. At this point is when I vacate and move on to replay the cycle.

When people talk about experience, they fail to see for someone like me its not a choice. I feel like I am in a prison. I never feel good enough, I never feel deserving. I always think of all the million things that could go wrong. These relationships are also quite emotionally heavy and the fear of making mistakes just gets that much bigger. They cease just being a girl but are also a person. Its a different experience to going somewhere and randomly chatting to a stranger, flattering them right, left and center i.e. the cheap thrills.

I should mention that even though i am virgin, i have been intimate through these cheap thrills avenue. More so nowadays. Sometimes i can be quite aggressive it scares me. There is no consequence, no emotional blowback and usually driven on behest from my 1 proper guy friend to seek out experience. According to him, my problem can be summarised as never pulling the trigger.

This week has been hard, I find I am being hit by lack of meaning. Life appears hollow, nothing appears to actually matter. I find driven by thoughts of just packing up the bags and moving across the planet, somewhere very far away, quitting everything and just disappearing, to reinvent myself anew. I've been hit by acoupke if major shocks that have truly made my psyche reverberate.

Neil, I have to say I envy your way with words! Supreme gift!

 

[Chrissy]

I have to confess and say that this past week I have been dealing with stress, bordering on depression. The root is social connection/isolation. This discussion in this thread has been making me feel even more stressed/depressed.

Snip...

This week has been hard, I find I am being hit by lack of meaning. Life appears hollow, nothing appears to actually matter. I find driven by thoughts of just packing up the bags and moving across the planet, somewhere very far away, quitting everything and just disappearing, to reinvent myself anew. I've been hit by acoupke if major shocks that have truly made my psyche reverberate.

Neil, I have to say I envy your way with words! Supreme gift!

My apologies Luke, if I'm way off base here, but these two paragraphs gave me the feeling that your social interactions primarily stem around being with peers. I was thinking, perhaps branching out a bit to different social groups might help gain perspective and that connection you speak of. If you had free time could you volunteer? Maybe there is a retirement home near you or senior center, a boys and girls club or after school program, or even an animal shelter to walk dogs. I think you could reinvent yourself right where you are.

Sorry if this is noise, but when you said life is hollow, it struck a chord.

Neil, I agree, I'm really enjoying your posts.

 

[Miss.K]

I'm not through with this thread yet, so I won't say too much yet, but thought I'd mention that if one is lonely and need gentle platonic touch, that getting a cat or a dog really really helps a lot. (as much as the difference between going insane from loneliness and not going insane from loneliness)

I think I remember G said about love "start with animals, they respond better" I have found that to be true

 

[Jenn]

Miss.K I have recently been reading articles on touch and how important it is for our well-being... I found this article which I thought was lovely- pet therapy in care homes for the elderly...
http://www.carehome.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1557257/pet-therapy-brings-the-joy-of-animals-to-care-homes

 

[Miss.K]

Miss.K I have recently been reading articles on touch and how important it is for our well-being... I found this article which I thought was lovely- pet therapy in care homes for the elderly...
http://www.carehome.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1557257/pet-therapy-brings-the-joy-of-animals-to-care-homes

Nice to see that!
I think I read somewhere that statistically people with pets live longer. And statistically happily married people also live longer, and I think it has much to do with the gentle platonic touch, and gentle platonic social interaction.
I even heard that babies if provided food and warmth, but no touch, will die (though I can't imagine who would test that)

When I decided to get my cat, 1,5 years after my last cat had died. I had been doubting if it was a good idea, as I live in a small flat, but in the end I thought that it didn't matter if it was practical or not, because if I didn't get something soft, gentle and loving in my everyday life, I might get sick or just wither and die from lack of love, (and since a lot of shelter cats are better of in my small flat than where they are it would be a good deal for the cat as well) So I got her, and it really does make the withering feeling go away, to have the everyday gentle calm exchange of love with this little soft and needle clawed creature, so I can better function otherwise.

-edit- spelling

 

[RedFox]

I think that's some good advice. I'd add that I go for a massarge once a week, so you could do that or perhaps if that seems to intimidating something like sacrial cranial massarge (you get to keep your clothes on), reflexology or Indian head massarge.
You could also try yoga for a change of scene.

I have to confess and say that this past week I have been dealing with stress, bordering on depression. The root is social connection/isolation. This discussion in this thread has been making me feel even more stressed/depressed.

fwiw I felt similar after reading the article on touch, that hit something pretty deep in me too.

When people talk about experience, they fail to see for someone like me its not a choice. I feel like I am in a prison. I never feel good enough, I never feel deserving. I always think of all the million things that could go wrong. These relationships are also quite emotionally heavy and the fear of making mistakes just gets that much bigger. They cease just being a girl but are also a person. Its a different experience to going somewhere and randomly chatting to a stranger, flattering them right, left and center i.e. the cheap thrills.

Having been through that for close to 10 years I know how it feels! The only difference I see is that you have the courage to talk to people, yet I hardly managed it in all that time.
What did help in those years was helping others, trying to be less judgemental or jealous of others (and there was a ton of it, along with a sense of lack) and in hind sight I can add learning to sit with uncomfortable feelings compassionately.

If you are unsure how to do that, Inviting a Monkey to Tea Befriending Your Mind & Discovering Lasting Contentment by Nancy Colier is quite useful.

 

[Menna]

When people talk about experience, they fail to see for someone like me its not a choice. I feel like I am in a prison. I never feel good enough, I never feel deserving. I always think of all the million things that could go wrong. These relationships are also quite emotionally heavy and the fear of making mistakes just gets that much bigger. They cease just being a girl but are also a person. Its a different experience to going somewhere and randomly chatting to a stranger, flattering them right, left and center i.e. the cheap thrills.

Having been through that for close to 10 years I know how it feels! The only difference I see is that you have the courage to talk to people, yet I hardly managed it in all that time.
What did help in those years was helping others, trying to be less judgemental or jealous of others (and there was a ton of it, along with a sense of lack) and in hind sight I can add learning to sit with uncomfortable feelings compassionately.

If you are unsure how to do that, Inviting a Monkey to Tea Befriending Your Mind & Discovering Lasting Contentment by Nancy Colier is quite useful.

When the C's personally told me to help others reach the next rung on the ladder I looked into their advice and have been reasearching what that really means and then practicing it. There is alot to be gained in helping others this way - it empowers you. Through the help you say and realize things that you never would if you kept to yourself or if you kept telling yourself/others your story over and over again. I don't really know how to describe it however time after time after I give advice or try to help someone in the work I walk away with a feeling like "did i really say that I know more than I thought however I am not practicing it in my own life" Realizing that you know something and that you are not practicing what you preach (if you care about yourself) is really tough to face and walk away from. For me its harder to not practice what I preach than to avoid it. How did I reach this point? The experiences in life that have touched my emotional center. In helping others it strikes a cord in you that really puts the advice that you give out in your hands-you now see it infromt of you. This is when being sincere with yourself is important this is why doing away with buffers and sacred cows is important. Can you look yourself in the mirror and say I know how to be better but I choose not to be? If you can say it to others and know it why don't you practice it? It would be very "insert word" to know something, help others with the information however after realizing what you know through helping you don't practice what you preach. Maybe if theres a virgins anonymous or something like that you could help others Luke. I don't know where to find that however you could find just about anything on the internet. I believe this is an example of STO you are helping others and through that you help yourself and through that you help people you interact with. This talk about touch (with a side of EE) and what have you is one way to touch something deeper inside you and open yourself up to new emotions and realizations a new reality.

 

[mocachapeau]

I'm not sure if this on or off topic, but these are some of my thoughts.

I've been with my wife for over twenty years. For most of that time, sex has played a very important role. Recently, the last two or three years, I seem to have lost a lot of interest in sex. In fact, I am now finding it hard to "perform" whenever my wife is in the mood.

I don't know if it's because I am less physically attracted to my wife, or if I have less of an emotional connection with my wife, if it's just a biological issue, or something else entirely. Right now I am feeling that it doesn't really matter what the reason is. It just is. What I am seeing today is how unimportant sex really is, how it can be used very badly, and how much more important the emotional aspect of our relationship is.

My wife has always used sex to avoid communication. Years ago, we would have a fight, yell a lot, then stop talking to one another for a time, maybe an hour or so. Then, she would start talking to me as if nothing ever happened, and then initiate sex. This was her way of saying the fight was over, but we hardly ever resolved the issue we were fighting about. If ever I tried to pursue a resolution instead of giving in to her sexual advances, she would just get angry all over again. That was me - huge libido, easily manipulated with sex.

Oddly enough, we recently have begun to talk about issues that my wife has always been afraid to face and discuss. I'm beginning to think that this is happening, partly, because she can no longer use sex to avoid it. I don't mean we are fighting and yelling again, but that we do still have disagreements and she seems to have realized that she can no longer avoid dealing with the issues involved.

This experience has helped put the whole sex issue into perspective for me.

 

[Neil]

I don't know if you saw this article on SoTT but I think it relates quite strongly to the entire topic.

I have to confess and say that this past week I have been dealing with stress, bordering on depression. The root is social connection/isolation. This discussion in this thread has been making me feel even more stressed/depressed.

fwiw I felt similar after reading the article on touch, that hit something pretty deep in me too.

I am affected by this social isolation as well. I agree that this type of relationship takes some intensity out of the sexual arena, as I've had it for periods in my past and it was very pleasant to have that open and innocent emotional connection without the domination of sex mucking everything up. Sexual thoughts did intrude from time to time, but they never became the driving force in the interaction. I read that article and responded to it in the Covert Depression thread. Basically, I concluded that the "sexual relationships or bust" attitude is very frustrating to me. In middle school, I didn't see any problem with being touchy-feely with guys, but rather quickly unlearned that behavior after all of the gay bashing I was subject to.

I remember reading some story about this girl and her best friend (male) who grew up together and they basically knew everything about each other. She said sometimes they sleep together but they never had sex. I thought if that story was true, that must be an incredibly open, trusting, and respectful relationship. I thought it was interesting food for thought about what real human bonds could be, outside of any formal partnership.

While this concept of social connection/isolation/relationships isn't something that rules my life and makes me feel shamed or unworthy, it is kind of a "sticking point." In practice, these deeply emotional friendships with are about as much of an impossible dream as my idealized sex. I can't seem to make the right connections, even finding anyone in the first place seems more like dumb luck. Who's going to understand the Platonic touch concept and want to participate in it? It is a problem that seems like it goes on and on and on without a resolution. I've gone through the whole discussion like we've had on this thread with myself several times regarding sexual partnerships and more celibate relationships like I mentioned above, and it always comes back to the same conclusion: read more, fix the energy that you're sending out to the universe and shelve it for now because you've got bigger fish to fry. So I can move on to other things and remain functional, but there's definitely this "void" there. It's like having to accept a reality where true human connections don't really exist. I think I'll have to have a look at that book you mentioned RedFox.

As for the massage thing, I think you definitely have to try it Luke. I think the therapist you decide to go to makes a huge difference too. I ended up going to this lady who's a little bit New-Agey but not terribly soppy and she's into reiki. Her touch definitely had a bit more "charge" than the other person I visited. Oh, and I think it's better if all of the clothes come off. My therapist gives you the option and I was kind of scared the first time, but I do think they end up getting in the way and detracting from the experience. I actually found out quite a bit about myself from it. There were parts where she held my limbs to do certain motions and you're just supposed to relax and go with the flow, but I had a tendency to tense up. She was like, "You have a hard time trusting people, don't you?" and I said, "Yeah."

Thing is, I had never been touched like that at all before, just letting someone touch just about every part of your body in this gentle, soothing way. The thing is, I'm so touch deprived, for me the thing took on sort of a pseudointimate character and I ended up getting somewhat aroused even though that wasn't the intention. I kind of wondered what it would be like to be touched like that by someone you love. You have to experience it for yourself, really. I don't go too often though, because for me it ends up being a little bit more than a massage and I felt kind of guilty about getting aroused by it. The main reason I go is to experience that "flow" that comes out of her hands and moves through my nerves, not because my body aches or anything and I'm not sure if it's healthy for me to get too attached to it. Still, well worth it if you've never done it.

 

[BHelmet]

My goodness, some people have commented that this is a depressing thread and I must say, I have to agree!

Our individual experience is generally not universal, although it can be at times. So perhaps it is the most empowering idea to assume that your views and experience of human sexuality is just subjective and personal. As the C's always say - it is all just lessons. All those different subjective points of view are equally valid for each person. We all have our own lessons to learn; and our own stories to tell as they relate to our point on the learning curve. It is good to keep things in perspective.

I think there can be a tendency to fail to make distinctions and collapse several different realms and lump them all together. If you put cherry pie and sauerkraut, mustard, a beer and a pork chop in a blender, then everything is going to get really mixed up, and probably not in a good way. If you take each one separately, you might have a really good supper. Here is what I mean:

Sex: you can try to take the purely physical aspect if you choose. But sex becomes emotional AND let's not forget the mind is the greatest sexual organ of all, so sex can easily get mixed up with emotions and thinking. This is the centers doing the wrong work. Happens all the time. Sex can also be a spiritual arena as well as a means of communication. But sex is just one potential aspect of relationship. It is good to tease the devil out of the details.

There is also a fundamental human need to relate to other beings. I am an only child, and I love and need to be alone sometimes, but I also have a desire to be known and be loved and to love and to know: to share life. Sex is not necessary for that, but it can be a part of it.

(sidebar: the story of my wife and I: without sex we never would have made it these 30 years! We can communicate through sex when our words fail. We can share forgiveness and mercy with each other through sex...trust, anger and so on)

Anyway - at its most basic level, and, if understood correctly, at its highest level - sex is about creating life; about passing on the spark of who we are - about giving ourself away to another being. Remember the C's saying that when we get out of here and get to 4D it will be our 'duty"? (privilege...honor?...task? I forget what they called it) someday to seed the 3rd density plane!! And our shattered soul complex of which we are splinters was also probably created out of an act of creative love as well.

Soooo, on earth - if understood at that level - sex is this amazing potential to create vehicles for souls. But when sex devolves to 'mere' pleasure and occurs outside of its highest purpose, well, it degenerates into STS weirdness.

(good grief, and the Catholics would agree! Help!)

We are so alone. Who knows us, really? Maybe you can come to know yourself - and if you do, then maybe you can give yourself freely and completely. I went through all the usual idiotic, counterproductive, depressing mistakes in relationships. Finally I kind of gave up trying although my soul did have this longing to share life intimately, and exclusively (aha! more sts!) with a member of the opposite sex. One day she just walked in the door and we both looked at each other and our eyes almost popped out of our heads and we both just about fell over backwards.

But this didn't happen until I was truly ready for it. I was so immature for so long. Yes, sex is predominantly STS by its nature. But sex and the desire/need to relate are 2 different issues. That is what I am trying to say. They are hard to separate. But if you can, I think it might add some sanity and clarity. On one level sex is just sex. On another, it is the act of creation (for which we need to be responsible if we are to have any integrity in our actions.)

I applaud and salute those of you that are virgins - and I encourage you to stick to your guns - be true to who you are. For you - this is the right thing. On the other hand, sex, or its avoidance can become an obsession. And we know what the C's say about that.

People get so worked up and tied in knots about all this. We attach so much meaning and energy to this subject. Maybe a bit too much.

Sigh, back to the classroom.