finding partners...

luke wilson said:
I find I am being hit by lack of meaning. Life appears hollow, nothing appears to actually matter. I find driven by thoughts of just packing up the bags and moving across the planet, somewhere very far away, quitting everything and just disappearing, to reinvent myself anew.

Pure genius. Now, can you accept the freedom this realization gives? I mean about the apparent lack of intrinsic meaning?

For so long I resisted the idea that life was empty and meaningless - but that idea is so freeing and after all is said and done, it doesn't really change anything. Why are we so obsessed on the necessity of meaning? More learning is needed, I guess!
 
BHelmet said:
luke wilson said:
I find I am being hit by lack of meaning. Life appears hollow, nothing appears to actually matter. I find driven by thoughts of just packing up the bags and moving across the planet, somewhere very far away, quitting everything and just disappearing, to reinvent myself anew.

Now, can you accept the freedom this realization gives?

I don't know if it is self-importance that stops one from just letting go, letting go of inhibitions, letting go of caution. Inhibition and caution do have a useful purpose e.g. to stop us from doing things that are bad, but on the flip-side they are just a manifestation of self-importance, stopping us from truly living life, experiencing it to our full potential.

I feel this inhibition more often than I should, for example if I am in a room and the music comes on, and someone starts dancing to it, and they look at you as if to ask you to dance as well, but in that moment you feel this huge weight of inhibition, this thing that holds you back, holds the hypnotic effect of the music back, the hypnotic effect of that situation, that calls you to disappear from yourself and re-appear fused into the fabric of that moment.

In other situations you just feel to talk freely would greatly help, help strengthen relationships, deepen bonds, build deep understanding but again, I find this weight, this chain, holding you back, manifesting as some sort of fear, giving you the impression that you have all the time in the world, you have an endless stream of moments to say what you should have. But it turns out that time sweeps in, and those moments pass, and words that you should have said never get said, life tears people away from each other and sweeps them into other arenas. Eventually you start to ask yourself what is important... the theories in my head, of what I should do or when I should do them... or the moments I have infront of me... the moments which are so delicately finite and mortal. The people who walk in and out of your life, who end meaning so much to you, the moments and experiences you share, but of which you take for granted and act like a supremely rich person, only to watch everything dissolve, into oblivion, and all you are left with are memories and thoughts of things that could have been, if you could only let go off those chains and dive into a universe of sincere relations. The lessons learnt then would have been of the highest order.

I find that those moments I have been at my best, in anything I have done, are those moments I just disappeared from myself and re-appeared beyond those things that confine me, that hold me back. Those moments are vanishingly rare. Those moments where a blindness descends upon you and you just disappear and re-emerge in a whole new world, where chains and prisons have no power over you.

Being a virgin at the end of the day doesn't really matter, wouldn't matter, if I lived life at such speed and such intensity as to feel fulfilment, meaning and joy of just having the beautiful gift of life bestowed upon my shoulders. Instead I live at a lumbered pace, with little to no intensity, living as if I am a tortoise with centuries worth of life left in me. Worse yet, treating life like it is so mundane, so common, so inconsequential, so everyday as to be intrinsically valueless. I suppose that is why I am sad.

What to do about it? I need to become dangerous and make dangerous decisions for me. I need to gather the force around me, the life force that courses through the trees, the birds, the wind, build up my reserves, gather courage, take notice of the terrain in front of me, and start making dangerous advances. That's what I need to do, I wish not for life to have just been a dream that is so easily forgotten, that carries no weight, no substance. That would be the height of sadness. Life is a gift and like any gift that is not to be squandered, it must be valued, cherished, nurtured and treated with reverence, in the act of living, I need to show this. Otherwise, I might as well be a piece of pebble on a sea shore somewhere.

Yup! Got it!

I think this is a good piece of music to go with this post. :)
 
Hey luke, I think this might be relevant... http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=91

The bolded part caught my eye when thinking of your situation, [quote author=cass glossary-AIM]In order to make progress in the Work, one must have an aim. Without aim there is no consistent struggle and one is more or less adrift in the sea of A influences which simply make one run in circles.[/quote]

Making specific checklists on what is or is not an acceptable learning experience or lesson of life is presumptuous and fruitless and actually goes counter to the goal of learning. Choosing a general direction is however necessary. This general direction can be described in terms of the service to other/service to self duality, of objectivity vs. forcing one's subjectivity on the world, of wakefulness vs. sleep and so forth. Such basic values can provide a framework for placing the intrinsically unpredictable and unanticipatable events of a spiritual path in context.

Another example, an aspiring pianist can never learn except little by little. If you wish to play melodies without first practicing, you can never play real melodies. The melodies you will play will be cacophonous and will make people suffer and hate you. It is the same with psychological ideas: to gain any-thing, long practice is necessary.

Try to accomplish very small things first. If at first you aim at big things you will never be anything. And your manifesta-tions will act like cacophonous melodies and cause people to hate you.

[quote author=Luke Wilson] I find this weight, this chain, holding you back, manifesting as some sort of fear, giving you the impression that you have all the time in the world, you have an endless stream of moments to say what you should have. But it turns out that time sweeps in, and those moments pass, and words that you should have said never get said, life tears people away from each other and sweeps them into other arenas.[/quote]

This made me think of this excerpt from 'The Last Hour', unsure whether it is written by Gurdjeff or Eugene Jeffrey Gold
[quote author=Gurdjeff/Eugene Jeffrey Gold- The Last Hour] http://www.searchwithin.org/download/last_hour_life.pdf

Imagine, that you have only a few minutes, maybe an hour left to live; somehow you have discovered exactly when you will die. What would you do with this precious hour of your stay
on Earth? Would you be able to complete all your things in this last hour, do you have a
conscious idea about how to do it?

Living in this world you have to feel death each second, so settle all your life affairs, even in
your last hour. But how can anyone know exactly his last hour? For the sense of security make
up your things with nature and yourself in every hour given to you, then you will never be met
unprepared. The man has to be taught this starting from the [esoteric] school: how to breath, to
eat, to move and to die right. This has to become a part of an educational programme. In this
programme it is necessary to include the teaching about how to realize the presence of “I” and
also how to establish consciousness.

Question: How to act if you do not feel that there is something unfinished?

Gurdjieff answered after a pause. He took a deep breath and replied:

Ask yourself who will be in difficulty if you die like a dog. At the moment of death you have to
be wholly aware of yourself and feel that you have done everything possible to use all, within
your abilities, in this life which was given to you.

Now you do not know much about yourself. But with each day you dig deeper and deeper into
this bag of bones and start knowing more and more details. Day by day you will be finding out
what you should have done and what you have to re-do among the things you have done. A real
man is one who could take from life everything that was valuable in it, and say: “And now I can
die”. We have to try to live your lives so that we could say any day: “Today I can die and not be
sorry about anything”.

Never spend fruitlessly the last hour of your life because it can become the most important hour
for you. If you use it wrongly, you may be sorry about it later. This sincere excitement that you
feel now can become for you a powerful source of the force that can prepare you for perfect
death. Knowing that the next hour can become the last one for you, absorb the impressions which
it will bring to you as a real gourmet. When lady death will call you, be prepared, always. The
master knows how to take from each tasty piece the last bit of the most valuable. Learn to be the
master of your life.
[/quote]

and this: http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=229&lsel=D

hope this helps :hug:
 
mocachapeau said:
My wife has always used sex to avoid communication. Years ago, we would have a fight, yell a lot, then stop talking to one another for a time, maybe an hour or so. Then, she would start talking to me as if nothing ever happened, and then initiate sex. This was her way of saying the fight was over, but we hardly ever resolved the issue we were fighting about. If ever I tried to pursue a resolution instead of giving in to her sexual advances, she would just get angry all over again. That was me - huge libido, easily manipulated with sex.

It is possible that your wife has used sex for manipulation, I can't know that, but in many cases I think that when this happens it is not manipulation, it is a way of releasing negative emotions from the fight, and most importantly to reconnect after having been torn apart in a fight. All problems discussed in the fight don't have to be solved (that could take years) before reconnecting, and deciding to be loving with each other.

Also I think it is worth to consider that women have huge libido too (women even have a larger sexual organ than men, it is just hidden). Men sometimes don't realize this, and so think that if the woman wants sex it is not just that she feels the urge when looking at her man doing manly things like shaving or washing the dishes, but that it has to be that she uses it to manipulate him.

Also I think that for women it can be harder to be rejected sexually than for men, because our society saiz more or less "if a woman is attractive, any man at any time will have sex with her" and though it is a huge lie, it can be hard for a woman unless she has realized the conditioning and is working to deprogram herself, because it feels like the man is saying she is unattractive. In our society, it is totally OK for a man to get rejected when he wants sex, because society saiz that men have huge libidos and just want sex all the time, but as women don't have libido and are these good (slightly stupid) saintly creatures, it is natural that it is part of being a real man to get rejected often.

So man rejected=Real man, and woman rejected=Unattractive

So I think I'd cut a woman a bit of slack if she gets furious for being sexually rejected, as the rejection triggers all kinds of feelings of being labeled unattractive, so it is not just a "I get angry because I don't get what I want" (of cause it can be in some cases)
-perhaps remember to tell her she is attractive or talk to her about it not being the reason for the rejection (unless it is the reason)
 
Miss.K said:
mocachapeau said:
My wife has always used sex to avoid communication. Years ago, we would have a fight, yell a lot, then stop talking to one another for a time, maybe an hour or so. Then, she would start talking to me as if nothing ever happened, and then initiate sex. This was her way of saying the fight was over, but we hardly ever resolved the issue we were fighting about. If ever I tried to pursue a resolution instead of giving in to her sexual advances, she would just get angry all over again. That was me - huge libido, easily manipulated with sex.

It is possible that your wife has used sex for manipulation, I can't know that, but in many cases I think that when this happens it is not manipulation, it is a way of releasing negative emotions from the fight, and most importantly to reconnect after having been torn apart in a fight. All problems discussed in the fight don't have to be solved (that could take years) before reconnecting, and deciding to be loving with each other.

Also I think it is worth to consider that women have huge libido too (women even have a larger sexual organ than men, it is just hidden). Men sometimes don't realize this, and so think that if the woman wants sex it is not just that she feels the urge when looking at her man doing manly things like shaving or washing the dishes, but that it has to be that she uses it to manipulate him.

Also I think that for women it can be harder to be rejected sexually than for men, because our society saiz more or less "if a woman is attractive, any man at any time will have sex with her" and though it is a huge lie, it can be hard for a woman unless she has realized the conditioning and is working to deprogram herself, because it feels like the man is saying she is unattractive. In our society, it is totally OK for a man to get rejected when he wants sex, because society saiz that men have huge libidos and just want sex all the time, but as women don't have libido and are these good (slightly stupid) saintly creatures, it is natural that it is part of being a real man to get rejected often.

So man rejected=Real man, and woman rejected=Unattractive

So I think I'd cut a woman a bit of slack if she gets furious for being sexually rejected, as the rejection triggers all kinds of feelings of being labeled unattractive, so it is not just a "I get angry because I don't get what I want" (of cause it can be in some cases)
-perhaps remember to tell her she is attractive or talk to her about it not being the reason for the rejection (unless it is the reason)

Silly questions...

Why is it men that pursue and women that get pursued, generally speaking? If both have relatively the same libido, why is it one gender is the active 'hunter' whist the other is the passive 'prey'. I would expect to see about 50/50 percent sort of balance.

Why is it that women sometimes will not say what they feel or want directly, rather they use some sort of code language to communicate these feelings...

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen... some women are rendered helpless by some men. For example, I knew this girl who made a mistake with this guy that she later regretted, in asking her what she expected to happen other than the inevitable result that occurred, she exclaimed that she had no choice. That his presence was to domineering that she was essentially rendered helpless, to be devoured upon so to speak, as if against her will. How does this work?

Lastly, how does a woman experience libido anyways? I know when I experience it, it is like an active force, almost a force of aggression, I don't have to be wined nor dined, nor have poetry recited to me in order to make me willing... why does it not work the same the other way? What's going on here?

A woman's perspective on the above would be useful. I've heard countless theories from men, I still think most don't know what they are talking about!
 
Not sure if this will help, but for those who are feeling frustration over not having had certain experiences involving physical/spiritual intimacy, keep in mind that this situation may just apply this time around. One may have experienced the gamut of experiences involving every intimacy type. Just not currently. ::shrug:: (Ok; like I said, not terribly helpful, but something to keep in mind.)

One can have had such an experience, then decide that you 'did it wrong' (the 'regrets' that some of you fear), and end back up in the same boat of frustration that those of you who have not had that experience are currently in - due to feeling that you messed it up, and the 'real thing' will never happen, so why seek to find that level of intimacy again? Along the way, one can ruminate upon the nature of this culture's obsession with physical intimacy, speculate upon the culture's relative lack of therapeutic touch, even imagine what a culture which supported therapeutic touch that didn't have to automatically lead to sex might be like, rail against our ponerized mores, etc. As always, in this place, plenty of opportunities to bang one's head against the wall.

Just keep in mind that the fear of 'regrets' is probably just another example of the perfectionism that your Inner Critic is muttering into your inner ear. Obviously, that doesn't mean to just run out and sleep with someone just to say you've had the experience. But I kind of did that (at age 34) insofar as the person wasn't a suitable long term partner (to say the least). Did I feel disappointed, and for the longest time, ashamed of my 'bad choice'? Sure (the shame is receding, fortunately, if not completely gone). Was it the end of the world? No. Did I Learn something from that experience? Sure did. Along the way since then, even before finding this group, collected some interesting thoughts about what a culture that allowed more non-sexual physical intimacy and a 'healthier' attitude towards full physical intimacy might possibly be like (a lot less Neurotic, needless to say).

Am I in the same boat currently of realizing, "Man, I am majorly touch-starved!" Yup. Pets and massage - some of the aforementioned coping mechanisms - do help.

And yes...it is off-putting to not be sure what, precisely, drives that craving...
 
luke wilson said:
Why is it men that pursue and women that get pursued, generally speaking? If both have relatively the same libido, why is it one gender is the active 'hunter' whist the other is the passive 'prey'. I would expect to see about 50/50 percent sort of balance.
In my experience there is a 50/50 sort of balance, and men and women equally active hunter and passive prey.

The difference lay in consequences.

There is no consequences for a man in having casual sex, but a woman knows instinctively that the act of one nights pleasure means her body getting deformed by pregnancy. She might die giving birth (or at least she knows it will hurt like hell) She'll be having her life force sucked out of her titties, and her next 18 years will be spend giving up her own life to care for the offspring.

As this is a pretty scary thought, she will choose have sex with someone who acts like he will be able to be there and help for the next 18 years (and who she thinks she will be able to stand being around for 18 years) She will want him to be strong, so he can take care of her when she's unable to due to pregnancies and children, and most importantly, he has to be able to see her (not only his fantasy of her) as if he is not, he won't be able to see her needs when she's in need, which she will be at some point, due to the consequences she has from sex. (All this is instinctual so using a condom don't make the instinct go away)

A friend of mine was entering a train with her really heavy suitcase. She wanted to put the suitcase up on the shelves above the seats. But even before she had started to struggle with it, a man who was talking on his mobile phone came and lifted her suitcase up on the shelves with one arm while still talking on his phone (probably with his mother we agreed to imagine) and sat down beside her (still talking on his phone).
And my friend spend the remaining train ride thinking "I'm so sorry for raping your aura"

That situation is simple, but in an instant he has shown that he sees her situation as it really is, and is aware of her needs, even when he's occupied with something else, and that he is strong, and willing to help her with his strength as the most natural thing in the world, without asking for anything in return (I understood perfectly she would fall for that in an instant)

luke wilson said:
Why is it that women sometimes will not say what they feel or want directly, rather they use some sort of code language to communicate these feelings...
Why is it that men sometimes will not say what they feel or want directly, rather they use some sort of code language to communicate these feelings...:)

luke wilson said:
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen... some women are rendered helpless by some men. For example, I knew this girl who made a mistake with this guy that she later regretted, in asking her what she expected to happen other than the inevitable result that occurred, she exclaimed that she had no choice. That his presence was to domineering that she was essentially rendered helpless, to be devoured upon so to speak, as if against her will. How does this work?
I can't tell from what you write if she got raped, and you ask "what did she expect?" or if she was in love with the man, so she said yes to sex, and later regretted because it was unpleasant (perhaps he was a horrible lover) or because he didn't want a relationship. So I'm not sure what to answer.
Some people (men and women) have difficulties setting limits with other people..

luke wilson said:
Lastly, how does a woman experience libido anyways? I know when I experience it, it is like an active force, almost a force of aggression, I don't have to be wined nor dined, nor have poetry recited to me in order to make me willing... why does it not work the same the other way? What's going on here?
I think the feeling is pretty much the same. I can't know, but once I dreamed I had a penis, and it was really embarrassing because I realized I'd forgotten to put on my pants, and was sitting in a public bus. So I tried to hide my penis between my legs, which made it grow due to the pleasant feeling of being squeezed between the legs..(then I woke up)
But it was the same feeling (just situated in the penis instead of the vagina)

I don't have to be wined and dined or have poetry recited (though it does help if a man is really good at something I admire, which could be saying something really clever and poetic) A mere look of recognition across the room, can be sufficient (he has to be able to see her, not only his fantasy of her)

Though due to the consequences of sex..
-which are also that if it is good, I'll want to do it again (if it's not good I wouldn't want it at all) If I do it again it will lead to a relationship, and then one wakes up 10 years later thinking "how did I end here?" -
..I'll seldom act on the urge, unless I think it is someone I want to have a relationship with, and he doesn't seem to be around...

luke wilson said:
A woman's perspective on the above would be useful. I've heard countless theories from men, I still think most don't know what they are talking about!

I think there is a lot of mystery involved in female sexuality, as symbolized by the sexual organs that are hidden, so it is also a little mysterious for women themselves.
But it's true that men often misinterpret woman sexuality a lot.
 
Miss.K said:
It is possible that your wife has used sex for manipulation, I can't know that, but in many cases I think that when this happens it is not manipulation, it is a way of releasing negative emotions from the fight, and most importantly to reconnect after having been torn apart in a fight. All problems discussed in the fight don't have to be solved (that could take years) before reconnecting, and deciding to be loving with each other.

I think in this case it is a combination of both - reconnecting after being torn apart in a fight AND avoiding communication. I, too, have initiated sex after fights, wanting to bring us close again. I understand that aspect. But I also tried, unsuccessfully, to initiate communication in those situations. And after twenty years I can say with conviction that my wife avoiding open communication about important issues has always been, well, an important issue. If it is honest communication, it forces her to look in the mirror, which is why she has always avoided it. And finally, after all this time, she is actually talking to me about subjects that we should have at least tried to address years ago. Coincidentally, it is happening at a moment in time where sex has been kind of removed from the equation.

I'm not saying it is the only reason for this change, but I do believe it is a factor, possibly a rather big one. You are spot on about how women can react to their man no longer wanting sex because they can interpret it as meaning they are no longer attractive. This is true where my wife is concerned, and she also feels that it means I don't love her anymore. Quite honestly, that has been my main concern since I have noticed this change in myself - how it will make her feel.

That is why I have reached the conclusion that the sex itself is really unimportant, certainly no where near as important as we have always felt it was. Sex is only one way to bring us close together in difficult moments but open communication is another. I think it is essential, and I think it has been neglected in our case. I think it has been neglected for more than one reason, but that the improper use of sex is probably a major factor.

What I am trying to say is that, after all these years of thinking about sex in the way many people have described it in this thread - this all-important thing that we all must have because of an intense desire, or "need" - I have come to feel that it is not all that important. It is the emotional bond, or connection, that one can only develop through honest communication, introspection, and many forms of affection, that is truly important in a relationship. Sex cannot develop that bond by itself, it is merely one form of affection that can be a beautiful part of that bond. And it can only be a healthy form of affection if that bond already exists.

I'm getting the impression that my libido may return if my wife and I work on developing that bond in the ways we have neglected in the past. Or, maybe it won't. But developing that bond seems to be what is really important for us, not whether or not we are having sex.
 
I just wanted to add that, if indeed there was some manipulation involved where the sex is concerned, that does not absolve me of any responsibility in the situation. If I was aware of the need of proper communication, instead of standing my ground and "insisting" on it, I allowed for the sex to replace it, manipulation or not, thus allowing for the neglect of our emotional bond.

As I have been saying to my wife in recent discussions, we BOTH are responsible for where we find ourselves today. It is unfair of either of us to place the responsibility solely on the other. If we do, we are not engaging in any introspection and are simply justifying, or ignoring, our own actions, whatever they may have been.
 
I find I am being hit by lack of meaning. Life appears hollow, nothing appears to actually matter. I find driven by thoughts of just packing up the bags and moving across the planet, somewhere very far away, quitting everything and just disappearing, to reinvent myself anew.

These two bolded parts in this quote have two opposite flavors to them. If life has lack of meaning and nothing matters why would you put forth the energy to move across the planet and reinvent yourself? Its deeper than this.

I applaud and salute those of you that are virgins - and I encourage you to stick to your guns - be true to who you are.

What if someone staid a virgin out of fear because of foreign programs adopted through childhood and being a virgin is not who they truly are they have to work and undo alot of crap to actually find out who they truly are. Sticking to your guns could mean sticking to buffers and sacred cows. Not saying this is everyone but its factual.

I'm getting the impression that my libido may return if my wife and I work on developing that bond in the ways we have neglected in the past. Or, maybe it won't. But developing that bond seems to be what is really important for us, not whether or not we are having sex.

For the same reason you think it may return is the same reason it left. You care about your wife, yourself and both emotional centers involved. You have put on hold what played a part in jeopardizing the above mentioned. I am not spiritual doctor however IMO It will return when you are confident and comfortable with the well being of your wife, yourself and your beings. Think about it how can you be turned on to want to have sex when that is what could really hurt both of you? On a deeper level you know this thats why its taking a back seat.
 
I also think it depends on your definition of sex. If you define sex as basically the mutual orgasm between two people, then no there is nothing particularly special about it and all you're doing is exchanging fluids. In that context, virginity means nothing, it merely denotes inexperience. My definition of sex was more along the lines of the Karezza approach, which sort of brings us back to Platonic touch. It includes the whole gamut of activities you do when you're lying together until you're "finished" and this generally doesn't include orgasm. Admittedly, this would be hard, even for me with all my knowledge, because the mating program still exerts a powerful push, but that's what self-observation is good for. This controlled version isn't done in the blind obedience of the huge "hit" that comes at then end, but in service of bonding with your partner on the most physicaly intimate level and forces you to be more conscious about it. Of course, if you're completely enslaved to the mating program or STS desire to "get me some" then this isn't even considered real sex and is a waste of time.

Anyways, I think a transfer on this level is of a much higher order and has a definitely emotional, and possibly spiritual component where there's a lot more higher impressions to be utilized. This is essentially offering your soul to someone in the most physically direct way possible in 3D. In this context, I think virginity matters, because you want it to be the best you can be, and you want the gift you're giving to have the highest value because you saved it for the person who you thought was the best match and you respect them that much...

I really have no interest in making babies, yet I still seek this form of sexual expression, consciously, although the mechanical component obviously has an influence. I need to have somewhere positive to put the energy or else deny that part of myself and say it's sinful or something like that. I'm not some super-spiritual celibate guru who can sit here and say, "Oh it's just some worldly thing. It's just an illusion and it matters not." I'm not convinced that much vaunted guru perspective is very objective in the grand scheme of things.

I think the bottom line is, we generally end up seeking out an experience that is commensurate with our level of understanding. I'm once again compelled to post this:
Session April 26 said:
Q: (L) Next question, any? (Pierre) In a previous session, years ago, it was mentioned that sometimes a man and woman make love, there is this kind of union on a soul level. I'm kind of paraphrasing here. And I want to know if this only happens between polar opposites?

A: Not necessarily.

Q: (Pierre) Okay, another question that's a bit more personal. I think in the past I experienced this kind of thing once. Is it true, or I'm just dreaming?

A: More or less, but could have been more than you can imagine presently if you had been capable of carrying the energies.

Q: (Pierre) Wow. That's already a lot. (L) I don't want to know about this kind of thing, Pierre! Jesus Christ! [laughter] (Pierre) No, it was not sexual like that, it was very beautiful. (L) I know, I'm just teasing. (Pierre) And they're saying it can be much more than that? (L) It's kind of like you were a 110 appliance trying to run on 220V.
Based on my current understanding, this is the most correct use of sex in my life unless I'm suddenly called on to repopulate the planet. (Ha, what a thought that is) I do sometimes wonder if I'll ever have the level of Being required to do this, but anything less, in context of what I know, feels like sinning against my soul. Also the neutralizing force again is very integral here, what may seem right for me is not right for someone else, especially in different circumstances. So I think everyone has to seek their own level of experience from their own level of understanding and find their own level of "right and wrong" which is not absolute.

Moving on a bit, I think sex is just one tool in the toolbox which is used for very specific purposes on very specific projects and requires specific skills to use. We fixate on it because we live under a veil and it glitters with gold. Being able to really trust and actually talk to your partner is more like the adjustable monkey in the whole set and has a much more universal application. But the gold thingy is much more alluring and it is used in places where the monkey wrench would be better. I think it is self-evident you can have a relationship without sex. Some of these Platonic touch type friendships could be considered relationships depending on how broadly you define the term. Obviously, in most of these interactions, the concept of sex is totally inappropriate and I think there even some love relationships where it is not really relevant.

So yeah, I think the point needs to be emphasized that it is only one small, but powerful tool. I think we got off on a tangent when we started talking about virginity where the subject is supposed to be finding partners.
 
@mocachapeau
Sure it can be both at the same time (avoiding conversation and wanting to reconnect) :)

@all
wow I've spend all day reading this thread and am only on page 11. It is really an interesting conversation. Look forward to catching up!
Thanks to all for your honesty and insights :flowers:
 
Luke Wilson said:
I find I am being hit by lack of meaning. Life appears hollow, nothing appears to actually matter. I find driven by thoughts of just packing up the bags and moving across the planet, somewhere very far away, quitting everything and just disappearing, to reinvent myself anew.
I just wanted to add here how similar this sounds to why I started the Disillusionment thread. You can almost take the words out of my mouth and put them in yours. I think that you create meaning by choosing to align with some idea or principle and putting your energy into it. Then comes the test of faith...
 
Thanks Miss K.

It was interesting hearing views from a female perspective.

Regarding the guy and girl I was talking about, he was mimicking the behaviour of the perfect guy a girl expects. He was confident, strong and responsive to her needs, from the get-go. To me, the inevitability of their encounter lie in 2 pieces of logic

- What made her think she was special so as to elicit the perfect response from a guy from the get-go, without them spending the time to know each other,

- Does she think she is responsible for making him so good at how he comes across i.e. clearly if a guy is perfect, says all the right things, acts in all the right ways... it is clear he got that way through practice i.e. she ain't special and she is 1 of many girls in his path.

The inevitability was that she had a one night stand which he told all his friends about like he had won some game. They then saw her as the girl he 'bagged'. She got angry and confronted him once she realized his game... I remember a question she asked him "You can't go around sleeping with all the girls around the city"... his response was "Uhmmm... yes I can!"... she was angry because she fell for his deception. In those moments of 'seduction' she thought she was unique, maybe she thought she had found the 'one' but what she had actually encountered was a really good 'player' of women.

So far in my life, this is the type of girl I meet... the one who is torn between 2 things... the one who falls for the guy who mimics the perfect gentleman but also the one who longs for the perfect gentleman... in my mind, they are deluded... the guy they fall for is perfect for a reason... practice... i.e. the individual girl isn't special, unique... he only got good through practice... the perfect guy... the one who will cherish them... love them... only see them... be strong for them.. improve for them.. etc... this person won't start off perfect. It's logical. So to me they are caught between something they can't win unless they choose one or the other. To forego the image of perfection which is a male being sculpted in the image they have in their minds because for him to achieve this image in the instant they meet, she would not be unique in his eyes, rather, she would be 1 of a string of girls he has used to iron out his talent. Or to forego the image of something unique to her... the perfect being for her... the one who will only get better once he has met her but in the instant they meet, he will not have reached his peak, because it's only through her that he can achieve this. This type of girl is the only one I have met thus far. They are beautiful, they have no problem in terms of sex or relationships, but they have a problem in terms of finding that thing which is special, which is eternal, because they are torn between 2 opposing forces and in the majority of cases, it is the one who projects the image that wins, rather than the one who is actually capable of manifesting that which they crave.

But yeah, it was interesting hearing a females perspective. I still do think females are elusive in terms of how they function. As a guy, I can see how easily fooled a girl can be, but I also respect how easily she can fool a man if she so wanted. A strong gaze across a room is not really indicative of anything... all it is indicative of is a man who is confident... why they are confident can be because of anything that you can't really determine without seeing him from a non-sexual point of view which can only be obtained from that which she is not, not being the thing he desires.

Anyways for me personally, I think my worry of virginity is natural given the environment I live in. But I also think I won't die a virgin because life has a natural progression that is taking root. I don't think sex is that big... maybe on an individual level it is but I think ultimately we signed up for things bigger than our individual selves. That is not to say we sacrificed our individual selves. Basically saying that life is bigger than what we want personally and instead serves a purpose beyond ourselves. This however doesn't stop from the internal individual turmoil. 10 years from now, I can bet money I will be faced with entirely different problems and the problems of today won't be the problems of tomorrow. I think this problem with virginity is only a consequence of the times and not a consequence of who we actually are.

Virginity is both imposed and chosen. Imposed from a time beyond my conscious mind, and chosen through the choices I make. I feel a huge part of my life is fighting adversity, that of the personal individual form... i.e. stress, depression, seclusion etc. But I think this is chosen, as a lesson. But I don't think this is all it is, because we have a duty beyond ourselves... and if I have a duty beyond myself and unto another, then it is inevitable that our paths will cross and I will have to choose between a path of selfishness or choosing for the sake of another.

So yeah, that's that. I have seen and encountered enough to be confident and not-confident at the same time. Easily deluded and not-so easily deluded at the same time.
 
An interesting sott.net article for those who may not have seen it already:

http://www.sott.net/article/295484-The-lack-of-gentle-platonic-touch-in-mens-lives-is-a-killer

In preparing to write about the lack of gentle touch in men's lives, I right away thought, "I feel confident I can do platonic touch, but I don't necessarily trust other men to do it. Some guy will do something creepy. They always do." Quickly on the heels of that thought, I wondered "Wait a minute, why do I distrust men in particular?" The little voice in my head didn't say, "I don't necessarily trust people to not be creepy", it said, "I don't trust men."

In American culture, we believe that men can never be entirely trusted in the realm of the physical. We collectively suspect that, given the opportunity, men will collapse into the sexual at a moment's notice. That men don't know how to physically connect otherwise. That men can't control themselves. That men are dogs.

There is no corresponding narrative about women.

Accordingly, it has become every man's job to prove they can be trusted, in each and every interaction, day by day and case by case. In part, because so many men have behaved poorly. And so, we prove our trustworthiness by foregoing physical touch completely in any context in which even the slightest doubt about our intentions might arise. Which, sadly, is pretty much every context we encounter.

And where does this leave men? Physically and emotionally isolated. Cut off from the deeply human physical contact that is proven to reduce stress, encourage self esteem and create community. Instead, we walk in the vast crowds of our cities alone in a desert of disconnection. Starving for physical connection.

We crave touch. We are cut off from it. The result is touch isolation.

How often do men actually get the opportunity to express affection through long lasting platonic touch? How often does it happen between men? Or between men and women? Not a hand shake or a hug, but lasting physical contact between two people that is comforting and personal but not sexual. Between persons who are not lovers and never will be. Think, holding hands. Or leaning on each other. Sitting together. That sort of thing. Just the comfort of contact. And if you are a man, imagine a five minutes of contact with another man. How quickly does that idea raise the ugly specter of homophobia? And why?

While women are much freer to engage in physical contact with each other, men remain suspect when they touch others. There is only one space in our culture where long term platonic physical contact is condoned for men, and that is between fathers and their very young children.

I found this kind of physical connection when my son was born. As a stay at home dad, I spent years with my son. Day after day, he sat in the crook of my arm, his little arm across my shoulder, his hand on the back of my neck. As he surveyed the world from on high, I came to know a level of contentment and calm that had heretofore been missing in my life. The physical connection between us was so transformative that it changed my view of who I am and what my role is in the world. Yet it took having a child to bring this calming experience to me because so few other opportunities are possible to teach men the value and power of gentle loving touch.

As a young child and as a teenager, contact between myself and others simply didn't happen unless it came in the form of rough housing or unwelcome bullying. My mother backed off from contact with me very early on, in part, I think, due to her upbringing. I can only guess that in her parents' house physical touch was something for toddlers but not for children past a certain age. Add to that, the fact that my father was absent due to my parents' divorce and years of work overseas, and it meant I grew up without being held or touched

This left me with huge insecurities about human contact. I was well into my twenties before I could put my arm around a girl I was dating without first getting drunk. To this day, I remain uncertain about where and how to approach contact with people, even those I consider close friends. It's not that I can't do it, it's just that it remains awkward, odd. As if we all feel like we're doing something slightly... off?

Contact with male friends is always brief, a handshake, or a pat on the back. Hugs with men or women are a ballet of the awkward, a comedic choreography in which we turn our groins this way or that. Shoulders in, butts out, seeking to broadcast to anyone within line of sight that we are most certainly not having a sexual moment. We're working so hard to be seen as sexually neutral that we take no joy in these moments of physical connection.

Not only do we men distrust others in this muddled realm of physical touch, years of shaming and judgement have left us distrusting ourselves. Did I enjoy that too much? Am I having taboo thoughts? This distrust leaves us uncertain about touching another human being unless we have established very clear rules of engagement. Often we give up and simply reduce those rules to being in a relationship. We allow ourselves long-lasting comforting touch with our girlfriends or boyfriends. The vast universe of platonic human touch is suddenly reduced to the exclusive domain of one person and is blended into the sexual. That's a lot of need to put on one person, however loving and generous they might be.

Which leads to the question, how do we teach our sons to understand how touch works? How to parse out the sexual from the platonic? Is the pleasure of human contact inherently sexual to some degree? I doubt its a question the average Italian man would ever ask himself. But here in America, generations of Puritanical sexual shaming have made it a central question. By putting the fear of the sexual first in all our interactions, we have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, avoiding all contact rather than risk even the hint of unwanted sexual touch.

Many parents step back from physical contact with boys when their sons approach puberty. The contact these boys seek is often deemed confusing or even sexually suspect. And, most unbelievable of all, all opportunity for potential physical touch is abruptly handed over to young boys' female peers, who are suddenly expected to act as gatekeepers to touch; young girls who are no more prepared to take on this responsibility than boys are to hand it over.

And so boys are cast adrift with two unspoken lessons: 1.All touch is sexually suspect
2.Find a girlfriend or give up human contact
A particularly damning message to boys who are gay.

American culture leaves boys few options. While aggression on the basketball court or bullying in the locker room often results in sporadic moments of human contact, gentleness likely does not. And young men, whose need for touch is channeled into physically rough interactions with other boys or fumbling sexual contact with girls, lose conscious awareness of the gentle, platonic contact of their own childhoods. Sometimes it's not until their children are born that they rediscover gentle platonic touch; the holding and caring contact that is free from the drumbeat of sex, sex, sex that pervades our culture even as we simultaneously condemn it.

Is it any wonder that sexual relationships in our culture are so loaded with anger and fear? Boys are dumped on a desert island of physical isolation, and the only way they can find any comfort is to enter the blended space of sexual contact to get the connection they need. Which makes sexual relations a vastly more high stakes experience than it already should be. We encourage aggressive physical contact as appropriate mode of contact for boys and turn a blind eye to bullying even as we then expect them to work out some gentler mode of sexual contact in their romantic lives.

If men could diffuse their need for physical connection across a much wider set of platonic relationships, it would do wonders for our sense of connection in the world. As it is, we can't even manage a proper hug because we can't model what was never modeled for us.

We have seniors in retirement homes who are visited by dogs they can hold and pet. This does wonders for their health and emotional state of mind. It is due to the power of contact between living creatures. Why are good hearted people driving around town, taking dogs to old folks homes? Because no one is touching these elderly people. They should have grandchildren in their laps every day, or a warm human hand to hold, not Pomeranians who come once a week. And yet, we put a dog in their laps instead of give them human touch, because we remain a culture that holds human contact highly suspect. We know the value of touch, even as we do everything we can to shield ourselves from it.

We American men, have a tragic laundry list of reasons why we are not comfortable with touch. 1.We fear being labeled as sexually inappropriate by women.
2.We live in a virulently homophobic culture so all contact between men is suspect.
3.We don't want to risk any hint of being sexual toward children.
4.We don't want to risk our status as macho or authoritative by being physically gentle.
5.We don't ever want to deal with rejection when we reach out. (And in our touch averse culture that is the most likely outcome.)
But at the root of all these flawed rationalizations is the fact that most American men are never taught to do gentle non-sexual touch. We are not typically taught that we can touch and be touched as platonic expression of joyful human contact. Accordingly, the very inappropriate over-sexualized touch our society fears runs rampant, reinforcing our culture's self fulfilling prophecy against men and touch. Meanwhile, this inability to comfortably connect via touch has left men emotionally isolated contributing to rampant rates of alcoholism, depression and abuse.

And what if the lack of platonic touch is causing some men to be far too aggressive toward women, who, as the exclusive gatekeepers for gentle touch are carrying a burden they could never hope to fully manage? Women, who arguably are both victims of and, in partnership with men, enforcers of the prohibition against platonic touch in American culture? The impact of our collective touch phobia is felt across our society by every single man, woman and child.

Brené Brown, in her ground breaking TED Talk titled The power of vulnerability talks at length about the limitations men face when attempting to express vulnerability in our culture. She notes the degree to which men are boxed in by our culture's expectations about what a man is or is not allowed to do. I would suggest that the limitations placed on men extend to their physical expression though touch. And are just as damaging in that realm.

But here's the good news.

There are many reasons why full-time stay at home dads are proving to be such a transformative force in American culture. One powerful reason is the awakening of touch. As full time dads, we are presented with the absolute necessity to hold our own wonderful children. We are learning about touch in the most powerful and life affirming way. In ways that previous generations of men simply were not immersed in. Once you have held your sleeping child night after night or walked for years with their hand in yours, you are a changed person. You gain a fluency and confidence in touch that you will never loose. It is a gift to us men from our children that literally has the capacity to transform American culture.

Accordingly, now, when I am with a friend I do reach out. I do make contact. And I do so with confidence and joy. And I have my own clear path forward.

The patterns in my life may be somewhat set but I intend to do everything I can to remain in contact with my son in hopes that he will have a different view of touch in his life. I hug him and kiss him. We hold hands or I put my arm around him when we watch TV or walk on the street. I will not back off from him because someone somewhere might take issue with our physical connection. I will not back off because somehow there is an unspoken rule that I must cut him loose in the world to fend for himself. I hope we can hold hands even when he is a man. I hope we continue to hold hands till the day I die.

Ultimately, we will unlearn our fear of touch in the context of our personal lives and in our day to day interactions. Learning how to express platonic love and affection through touch is a vast and remarkable change that has to be lived. But it is so important that we do it. Because it is central to having a rich full life.

Touch is life.
 
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