FOTCM Chateau visit?

[genero81]

I spent the early part of my life being a chameleon, as part of my defense mechanism, hiding myself from others

I can relate to that, I did the same.

Realizing where that led, I've adopted the only remedy that seems viable for me which is to be transparent to those who are helping and to those I can help

An intellectual remedy. I get that too. I can only tell you of my experience. I had an unfounded fear of others. It looked to me like everyone around me really had it together and knew what they were doing. When it finally became apparent that most everyone else was doing the 'fake it till you make it' strategy in life as well, the fear mostly went away. I was able to get real and just be me. I'm not overly transparent with people. That's not usually a great strategy, for me or them. I can be pretty darn honest though. I usually do it in a playful way if I know them well enough. I have empathy because I've struggled and suffered. You're almost 20 years younger than me so I've had a little longer in the school of hard knocks.

If you haven't read 'Healing Developmental Trauma' do. Sounds like you developed the connection survival strategy talked about in that book.

 

[GqSoul]

I can relate to that, I did the same.



An intellectual remedy. I get that too. I can only tell you of my experience. I had an unfounded fear of others. It looked to me like everyone around me really had it together and knew what they were doing. When it finally became apparent that most everyone else was doing the 'fake it till you make it' strategy in life as well, the fear mostly went away. I was able to get real and just be me. I'm not overly transparent with people. That's not usually a great strategy, for me or them. I can be pretty darn honest though. I usually do it in a playful way if I know them well enough. I have empathy because I've struggled and suffered. You're almost 20 years younger than me so I've had a little longer in the school of hard knocks.

If you haven't read 'Healing Developmental Trauma' do. Sounds like you developed the connection survival strategy talked about in that book.

You're experience is really helpful to reflect on. I really appreciate you sharing. I started to read the thread on healing developmental trauma and I'm really keen to start working through the book.

I'll have the samenow books on order tomorrow as well and will start there, but I've already seen so much from the childhood trauma aspect that I have to dig deeper into.

What occasioned my recent comments and thoughts was reflecting on the interviews I've been on recently and observing the dynamics -- the role I play. Being truly sincere with others has happened with my wife, family, one friend of 20 yrs and on this forum. I can't say I have had much practice in the broader world being "myself" in an optimal way.

 

[Potatoes and Tomatoes]

I can relate to that, I did the same.



An intellectual remedy. I get that too. I can only tell you of my experience. I had an unfounded fear of others. It looked to me like everyone around me really had it together and knew what they were doing. When it finally became apparent that most everyone else was doing the 'fake it till you make it' strategy in life as well, the fear mostly went away. I was able to get real and just be me. I'm not overly transparent with people. That's not usually a great strategy, for me or them. I can be pretty darn honest though. I usually do it in a playful way if I know them well enough. I have empathy because I've struggled and suffered. You're almost 20 years younger than me so I've had a little longer in the school of hard knocks.

If you haven't read 'Healing Developmental Trauma' do. Sounds like you developed the connection survival strategy talked about in that book.

There was an article on the radio a few months back and the presenter was discussing 'Imposter Sydrome'. Quite remarkable how many people, particularly professional people, felt that they were an imposter in their chosen field. Many thought that at some point, they'd be found wanting and fired...some even left jobs before this imaginary firing could happen! Despite outward appearances, lots do think they are just 'winging it'.

 

[aragorn]

There was an article on the radio a few months back and the presenter was discussing 'Imposter Sydrome'. Quite remarkable how many people, particularly professional people, felt that they were an imposter in their chosen field. Many thought that at some point, they'd be found wanting and fired...some even left jobs before this imaginary firing could happen! Despite outward appearances, lots do think they are just 'winging it'.

Yes, that is a typical feeling for people who are wounded in various ways during their upbringing, due to e.g. parents' narcissism, substance abuse, absence etc. It's a difficult reaction to get rid of (I've struggled with this all my life). This is detailed also in 'Trapped in The Mirror', 'The Narcissistic Family', and 'Adult Children of Alcoholics'. Highly recommended reading, if you haven't done so.

 

[GqSoul]

Yes, that is a typical feeling for people who are wounded in various ways during their upbringing, due to e.g. parents' narcissism, substance abuse, absence etc. It's a difficult reaction to get rid of (I've struggled with this all my life). This is detailed also in 'Trapped in The Mirror', 'The Narcissistic Family', and 'Adult Children of Alcoholics'. Highly recommended reading, if you haven't done so.

These latest comments remind me that I want to re-read the big five psych books in the light of my recent experiences. I'm nearing the end of Dr. Samenow's Myth of the out of Character Crime and will be working on synthesising my notes. It's been interesting to note the thoughts/insights that present themselves when asking, "How do these errors or patterns manifest in my behavior?"

 

[Jenn]

These latest comments remind me that I want to re-read the big five psych books in the light of my recent experiences. I'm nearing the end of Dr. Samenow's Myth of the out of Character Crime and will be working on synthesising my notes. It's been interesting to note the thoughts/insights that present themselves when asking, "How do these errors or patterns manifest in my behavior?"

I think that's a really good approach to take, because yes ok, we aren't criminals, but it is still those same dysfunctional thinking patterns that lead us to behave in ways that harm ourselves and those around us. And even worse, if those thinking patterns are left unchecked and continue for years they could turn into criminal behavior. Definitely eye-opening!

 

[Chu]

I think that's a really good approach to take, because yes ok, we aren't criminals, but it is still those same dysfunctional thinking patterns that lead us to behave in ways that harm ourselves and those around us. And even worse, if those thinking patterns are left unchecked and continue for years they could turn into criminal behavior. Definitely eye-opening!

I agree. Criminals or not, the point is to see what those thinking errors can teach us. And the logic behind them is very much like the predator's mind in many instances. So, being aware of them is the first step towards doing some "rewiring". I'm glad to see that not only did you take a break as suggested, but also implemented some of our suggestions. I hope that these efforts allow you to learn lots about yourself and others, thus being able to be more You.

 

[Elohir]

I tank you very much GqSoul for all your feedback and your apparent honesty about your life.

I just wanted to say a word about the chameleon thing.

As genero80 wrote, I also used and use to do the same but according to your knowledge and consciousness level, this attitude can be different. I'll try to explain the best I can my thought about that.

You can act as a chamaleon to lie to yourself and/or others, to hide who you "truely" are, maybe to deceive people, to obtain anything or simply drain someone from his energy. But I think that, at some point, depending of your purpose and your way of doing things, it's like a smart move to do in the STS 3D in order to protect yourself from any potential attack.

In the 90's, the C's advised Laura to be careful about what she could say, write, do in front of some people. her will to do the right things exposed her to several attacks. For example, in the 2008/10/22 session, Laura informed readers that some segments had been deleted because they were discussing about strategy for the websites and their own safety. Also, a long time ago, they stopped informing people about the future sessions to avoid any attack.

Our search for answers, for Truth about ourselves and everything is not an easy one, mostly because many people around us act as a firewall in the system. So, we have to keep in mind our main goal but also the realm where we live and "play". Of course, knowing the rules of our reality is part of the lessons to learn...

Like Joe told you before, no one is perfect and this is why we all have to work hard to improve ourselves. We start from a long distance while we evolve in a hard context. This general difficulty also means that it's better for us to work with each other in a network like around here. So YES, be honest with those who you REALLY want to help and with those that you REALLY want to help BUT thanks to your own experience, your knowledge, the books you read, try the best you can to identify who you are dealing with before going too far.

Of course, I don't say that being a chameleon is lying to everybody. It's rather being discret about who you are and what you think until you feel/know that it's OK.

Anyway, everything is lesson and everything happen for a reason, in the proper timing so...

Just my little stone

 

[goyacobol]

But I think that, at some point, depending of your purpose and your way of doing things, it's like a smart move to do in the STS 3D in order to protect yourself from any potential attack.

I think what you are saying sounds very much like "Strategic Enclosure" that Gurdjieff suggested. It is nice when you don't need to be so enclosed and defensive but seems necessary in a 3D STS realm depending on the situation.

Strategic enclosure is a practice that should be engaged in by every seeker of truth. It has both an external and an internal aspect. The external aspect is a kind of "strategic silence", employed in order to preserve the opportunity for further work. The internal aspect concerns how to maintain an inner (psychological) environment that works to one's benefit rather than detriment.

 

[Elohir]

I think what you are saying sounds very much like "Strategic Enclosure" that Gurdjieff suggested. It is nice when you don't need to be so enclosed and defensive but seems necessary in a 3D STS realm depending on the situation.

Thank you very much, your quote from Gurdjieff is perfect and comes in the proper time, you're too "good to be true" Goyacobol
Besides, you just helped me to improve a recent session's translation in french.

 

[goyacobol]

Thank you very much, your quote from Gurdjieff is perfect and comes in the proper time, you're too "good to be true" Goyacobol
Besides, you just helped me to improve a recent session's translation in french.

Glad it was helpful, @Elohir . Your post was the inspiration.

 

[GqSoul]

...it is still those same dysfunctional thinking patterns that lead us to behave in ways that harm ourselves and those around us.

This aspect is what ultimately motivates us to be self-critical, I think; to the degree that we can withstand the suffering of a castigating conscience, we will be faced with evidence of these patterns AND renewed will to move forward in a beneficial way. Not just beneficial for ourselves, but to those connected with us, and beyond.

That's what I've been experiencing in any case. It's also interesting to contrast the difference between internal dialogue that is a demoralizing negative introject vs conscience which is firm and unrelenting, but calls me forward with encouragement.

During this period of upheaval, I re-evaluated my conceptions and behavior, assuming that my "perceptual map" (borrowing a Dr. JP expression) was in some way deficient, insufficiently elaborated, or just plain wrong. Facing, enduring and growing through these repeated cycles over the years has taught me that the best outcomes result from submitting to the process and engaging earnestly. This is painful, really painful -- and not just emotionally/psychologically. I lost 15lbs (that I couldn't afford), in a matter of weeks. In many regards, I saw myself as a criminal. I felt indicted and convicted. All my systems were operating at supercapacity!

Without balance, it doesn't take long for this cycle to devolve from potentially transformative to paralyzing, destabilizing and destructive. Historically, I've lacked this balance. Without the QFG network, and Dr. Jordan Petersons work, I would've certainly spiraled downwards as I had with previous disintegrations. These major "reformations" centered around growing beyond my religious conceptions, and growing up in relationship with my wife.

Being prone to a certain extremism, I tended to raze existing structures to the ground without consideration for the scaffolding necessary to move from one framework to another. As an example, when I was introduced to concepts of The Work, I jumped headlong, naively trying to implement things I didn't understand, in a way that only produced unnecessary (stupid) suffering. Reading about "strategic enclosures" and "external consideration" was not sufficient to assure deploying it effectively, practically.

This reveals an aspect of the arrogance/self-importance that I'm continually trying to characterize in my nature; in isolation, without the support of the network, I was striving to live out a fantasized ideal of "spirituality" that didn't accord with objective reality. Absorbed in my own "dark night of the soul" drama, I was insensitive to the hurt and harm I caused. It cost me my job at one point, because I held "material career pursuits" in contempt to a certain degree. It nearly cost me my marriage, because I "suffered in silence." Many thinking errors compounded, prompting increasingly drastic lessons from the Universe.

 

[GqSoul]

...We start from a long distance while we evolve in a hard context. This general difficulty also means that it's better for us to work with each other in a network like around here. So YES, be honest with those who you REALLY want to help and with those that you REALLY want to help BUT thanks to your own experience, your knowledge, the books you read, try the best you can to identify who you are dealing with before going too far.

Of course, I don't say that being a chameleon is lying to everybody. It's rather being discret about who you are and what you think until you feel/know that it's OK.

Anyway, everything is lesson and everything happen for a reason, in the proper timing so...

Just my little stone

The experience is very much like aiming for a target from a long way off; as I make incremental progress over many years, I'm able to look back and appreciate the many adjustments that were needed in order to track the target more accurately. One of the most critical things I've learned is that I only have a "certain conception" of the target/ideal. I don't see it clearly. In fact, I CAN'T see it clearly, not by myself. Taking the input of many other "seers" into account and comparing my perception against this group/meta-vision helps orient me properly.

A good example for me was learning about Internal/external consideration compared to practicing it well. Re-reading the thread on Stalking/Intent was really helpful to contextualize the practice of these princioles. The challenge I've faced over the years is balancing the optimal way of behaving towards others while nurturing an internal environment that serves growth towards the ideal. It took trial and error, while suffering the consequences, for me to rely on the value of the network. Behaving "rightly" requires not just practice, but feedback that comes from outside my own echo chamber.

In striving to find this balance, I've vacillated from one extreme to another. Early on, I used the ability to "play a role" as a way to protect myself. Progressively, I learned that it could also be a way to deeply connect with a vast range of people and serve them.

Unfortunately, my understanding and practice were very naive, black and white. Among positive attempts to serve, were negative experiences of becoming "servile." After going through the cycle of resentment and apathy, I'm in a place now where the practice is less "theological" and self-flagellating. Taking a more "business minded" approach has led to striving for mutually beneficial interactions and outcomes.

 

[bianca etezete]

May I add my loose thoughts (mostly I like em loose, as in 'not fixed'; although I harbour a few pretty fixed thoughts...)?

the wish to meet someone in person, like in this case Laura and her family and friends at the chateau, is in my opinion originated in the wish to getting in touch with the core of what you admire. Saying that doesn't mean AT ALL that I advocate invading/intruding behaviour. To the contrary.

For example: I had the notion to see someone again after 13 years of more or less no contact. My way was simply asking whether the person would like that. At the moment of asking I was ready to take a "No" without any hard feelings, because, you know, for me a question you cannot say no to is not a question, it is a command. The person was not only ok with meeting, she was delighted. And so was the meeting/getting together.

A few days after my visit I asked myself whether I was richer with my experience, whether I was "satisfied" with the outcome. And it was like yes, it is all well and good. Nothing special happened, I just checked on a notion I have had and it turned out that it teached me something important, but different to what I "expected". Nevertheless, the lesson I have learned was NOT something that came through the other person. I could have done it myself. If she had said "no", I think the answer would have been the same, but maybe would have come later on.

So maybe the whole "I visit you!" action is a kind of pushing thing? Maybe it is just a sign for you to look at your impatience?

 

[GqSoul]

The example you shared is helpful and highlights some dynamics of "patience/long-suffering" that've been presented to me in various ways recently.

Being prepared to hear a "No" was not the challenge; it would be relatively easy to accept that response and reconcile myself to the reasons why. The challenge was fighting the impulse to try and "collapse the possibilities" one way or the other, because in the ambiguity of no response -- challenged to simply remain open -- I had to withstand my imagination and all the narratives that presented themselves.

In my state at that moment, any response would likely have been seized upon to validate a false view of myself, whether overly inflated or deprecating. The non response created real anguish, requiring me to simply consider the reflection and not impose my own image. I remember struggling to obey thoughts that encouraged, "wait, not yet, it's not time, don't insist, etc." In the first couple weeks after posting, I checked frequently. Then, once every couple of weeks. Subsequently, once for the month. In all that time, I was challenged to get outside of myself and receive a different perspective. Pushing for an answer, considering myself, indicated the lesson that was most needed.