Games
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atreides
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cast immolate discussion
Shouldn't be so easy to resurrect this time around.
Personally, my favorite types of games are strategy games, usually with a world domination theme. I love red alert, and the cossacks, oh and Armada was cool. But generally, even these games suck, formation means nothing, and it's basically just like 1 on 1, just multiplied by as many tanks, pikemen, or starships you have. The only time it is enjoyable is when you play against another human. Personally, I find playing anything against a souless computer to be bizarre and hollow.
Generally speaking though, games these days just plain suck and are retarded. Though I like the story behind the new Half Life, I didn't like the way the shoosting happened. If I shoot a npc 5 times it should die, especially if it's a noggin shot. The pistol was way underpowered. And that crossbow was too cool, but wait, the reload like took forever, still; pinning combine to the wall with it was strangely satisfying.
What I can't really get into is like gw and wow, the graphics would just distract me, there's something about using real dice that makes it more fun. When it comes down to it, games are about playing with others, not computers, if there isn't a way for me to play with real life friends, then I am not interested in the least. The last decent improvements on RPGs were MUDs. After that, it all went down hill.
Shouldn't be so easy to resurrect this time around.
Personally, my favorite types of games are strategy games, usually with a world domination theme. I love red alert, and the cossacks, oh and Armada was cool. But generally, even these games suck, formation means nothing, and it's basically just like 1 on 1, just multiplied by as many tanks, pikemen, or starships you have. The only time it is enjoyable is when you play against another human. Personally, I find playing anything against a souless computer to be bizarre and hollow.
Generally speaking though, games these days just plain suck and are retarded. Though I like the story behind the new Half Life, I didn't like the way the shoosting happened. If I shoot a npc 5 times it should die, especially if it's a noggin shot. The pistol was way underpowered. And that crossbow was too cool, but wait, the reload like took forever, still; pinning combine to the wall with it was strangely satisfying.
What I can't really get into is like gw and wow, the graphics would just distract me, there's something about using real dice that makes it more fun. When it comes down to it, games are about playing with others, not computers, if there isn't a way for me to play with real life friends, then I am not interested in the least. The last decent improvements on RPGs were MUDs. After that, it all went down hill.
I understand this and I agree, but I also have a sort-of opposite perspective. I think humans turn games into efficiency-obsessed slaughterfests. If you want to observe the artistic qualities of a game, and really "get into the world" of it and pretend to be part of a story, part of another world, and really put yourself "in-character" and truly experience all the aspects of a game while remaining true to the world and your character, then playing with other humans is sure to burst that bubble very quickly and with sudden pain - unless they all agree to be in-character, which is pretty much non-existent in games anymore except an occasional MUD. Humans, when playing with other humans, tend to ignore everything that doesn't further their goal of getting "points/frags/kills/levels" by any means, and the game loses any other point to it - it turns into just a random collection of pixels that people use to efficiently "pawn" someone else's collection of pixels, what those pixels are or are meant to represent becomes completely irrelevant. So any and all "exploits" and "tricks" that help you pawn someone are used, the game is literally ripped apart into its bare essentials, becoming a "tool".
I guess it's like movie vs a hammer. Movie is there to look a certain way and who/what is being represented matters (whether it is a troll army or tony soprano, etc), a hammer is there to do the job right, nobody cares what it looks like, even if it looks like tony soprano. But games are both - but humans tend to turn them into the most efficient hammers possible tend to ignore everything else. So if you're playing a Lord of the Rings strategy game, in single player you can pretend to be Sauron all you want, you can make your own story. In multiplayer you have no time to stop and enjoy the action and pretend to be Sauron. You're either a super-efficient mass-killing machine that knows to put "this building first, then this, then this here, then build 100 of these guys, then a few vehicles here, then rush them" or some other strategy, or you're dead. So it becomes purely about strategy - which buildings/units to build, in what order, and where - any sense of being Sauron or even what the game is about at all is completely irrelevant. It's all about unit strengths, numbers, and what "works" and what doesn't. And in that sense, we're seeing the game and acting more like a computer I think, who can only see numbers and strategies - and has no way to enjoy "playing as Sauron" and having any care/sense of what that means etc.
And I don't mean just role playing, I mean FPS or strategy or any genre of games. You cannot replace a human with a computer in some sense, a human is a human - it's a real being with real feelings and thoughts and much greater scope of strategy and unpredictability, there is an element of humor and just a sense of "togetherness" with other people, it does add a certain quality to what otherwise is basically a decorated calculator, a set of "IF..Then..Else" statements and nothing else. But while humans add the human quality, they do tend to ignore the game experience completely and make their destruction of others as efficient as possible, caring not for realism or anything else but what they can do to further their goal. But probably that's why they include single player and multiplayer. Single player is to enjoy the game world, the story, and to act in-character etc. Multiplayer is to get your tuchus handed to you in those efficiency-obsessed slaughterfests. When you first witness a rocket jump, or bunny hopping, or any other techniques to run/fly around in circles around you and shoot you, that's when you realize you're not in Kansas anymore, that the single-player world you've been playing in and the multi-player world are 2 different worlds entirely.
Thinking philosophically about it though, in real life there are basically 3 things you can seek. 1 of them is missing in games, leaving only the other 2. The 3 things being: 1) the "fakeness" that includes culture, beliefs, pretty shiny things, and other "A" influences. 2) Nothing but domination of others, being a total psychopath - exploiting reality to get an edge at any cost. 3) A higher meaning to life, the "B" influences. In games there is no higher meaning. That leaves only 1 and 2 - either you're just a "let's pawn everything that moves", or you enjoy the pretentious nonsense like the imaginary world the game is meant to represent. I guess if you have to pick, the former is the only real alternative - to use every possible means, to push the game to its limits and beyond together with others. Cuz the former is pretentious all the way, nothing about it is real - not just the fake world and story, but also the fake limitations that you'd have to pretend and obide by that don't really exist (meaning, all those flaws/exploits/tricks that you can use like rocket jumping etc, you'd pretend aren't there to pretend to be part of a pretend world). Nothing here is real at all. So the only real and realistic alternative is the one where you just kick ass - where you use the game's every intended and unintended "feature" to pawn/win. It actually brings you closer to reality - you really see what the games TRUE limitations are (and what they are not), you see what your TRUE limitations in a game are, and you see what other people can truly do. It brings it back to reality somehow. Cuz then when you're honed your multiplayer skills and go back to single player, you're literally God over the pretentious/simple/predictable/weak computers, you know how to use the game like the computer written by the game's designers never dreamed - cuz it doesn't dream, doesn't improvise, doesn't push its own limitations further out. Hmm did I just counter my entire point about the fun of enjoying the game world as it was intended? Probably... role playing does have its charms, but it can get pretty boring after a while.
Addendum: And I don't necessarily mean to put "pawning others" as your highest goal. But just being as good as you can get, to use the game as a tool, bending any rules that are possible, ignoring the story/prettyness/character roles etc. So in a sense winning does become the highest goal, but not in the sense of rendering you impersonable or "touchy" or irritable or overly competitive. You can compete but enjoy the company of others - cuz you're only competing in the game, not in the sense of an ego trip per se, or to "prove" to others how much "better" you are etc. Just not to sacrifice your potential skill in a game by succumbing to artificial limitations that the story/setting seeks to impose, that's all.
I guess it's like movie vs a hammer. Movie is there to look a certain way and who/what is being represented matters (whether it is a troll army or tony soprano, etc), a hammer is there to do the job right, nobody cares what it looks like, even if it looks like tony soprano. But games are both - but humans tend to turn them into the most efficient hammers possible tend to ignore everything else. So if you're playing a Lord of the Rings strategy game, in single player you can pretend to be Sauron all you want, you can make your own story. In multiplayer you have no time to stop and enjoy the action and pretend to be Sauron. You're either a super-efficient mass-killing machine that knows to put "this building first, then this, then this here, then build 100 of these guys, then a few vehicles here, then rush them" or some other strategy, or you're dead. So it becomes purely about strategy - which buildings/units to build, in what order, and where - any sense of being Sauron or even what the game is about at all is completely irrelevant. It's all about unit strengths, numbers, and what "works" and what doesn't. And in that sense, we're seeing the game and acting more like a computer I think, who can only see numbers and strategies - and has no way to enjoy "playing as Sauron" and having any care/sense of what that means etc.
And I don't mean just role playing, I mean FPS or strategy or any genre of games. You cannot replace a human with a computer in some sense, a human is a human - it's a real being with real feelings and thoughts and much greater scope of strategy and unpredictability, there is an element of humor and just a sense of "togetherness" with other people, it does add a certain quality to what otherwise is basically a decorated calculator, a set of "IF..Then..Else" statements and nothing else. But while humans add the human quality, they do tend to ignore the game experience completely and make their destruction of others as efficient as possible, caring not for realism or anything else but what they can do to further their goal. But probably that's why they include single player and multiplayer. Single player is to enjoy the game world, the story, and to act in-character etc. Multiplayer is to get your tuchus handed to you in those efficiency-obsessed slaughterfests. When you first witness a rocket jump, or bunny hopping, or any other techniques to run/fly around in circles around you and shoot you, that's when you realize you're not in Kansas anymore, that the single-player world you've been playing in and the multi-player world are 2 different worlds entirely.
Thinking philosophically about it though, in real life there are basically 3 things you can seek. 1 of them is missing in games, leaving only the other 2. The 3 things being: 1) the "fakeness" that includes culture, beliefs, pretty shiny things, and other "A" influences. 2) Nothing but domination of others, being a total psychopath - exploiting reality to get an edge at any cost. 3) A higher meaning to life, the "B" influences. In games there is no higher meaning. That leaves only 1 and 2 - either you're just a "let's pawn everything that moves", or you enjoy the pretentious nonsense like the imaginary world the game is meant to represent. I guess if you have to pick, the former is the only real alternative - to use every possible means, to push the game to its limits and beyond together with others. Cuz the former is pretentious all the way, nothing about it is real - not just the fake world and story, but also the fake limitations that you'd have to pretend and obide by that don't really exist (meaning, all those flaws/exploits/tricks that you can use like rocket jumping etc, you'd pretend aren't there to pretend to be part of a pretend world). Nothing here is real at all. So the only real and realistic alternative is the one where you just kick ass - where you use the game's every intended and unintended "feature" to pawn/win. It actually brings you closer to reality - you really see what the games TRUE limitations are (and what they are not), you see what your TRUE limitations in a game are, and you see what other people can truly do. It brings it back to reality somehow. Cuz then when you're honed your multiplayer skills and go back to single player, you're literally God over the pretentious/simple/predictable/weak computers, you know how to use the game like the computer written by the game's designers never dreamed - cuz it doesn't dream, doesn't improvise, doesn't push its own limitations further out. Hmm did I just counter my entire point about the fun of enjoying the game world as it was intended? Probably... role playing does have its charms, but it can get pretty boring after a while.
Addendum: And I don't necessarily mean to put "pawning others" as your highest goal. But just being as good as you can get, to use the game as a tool, bending any rules that are possible, ignoring the story/prettyness/character roles etc. So in a sense winning does become the highest goal, but not in the sense of rendering you impersonable or "touchy" or irritable or overly competitive. You can compete but enjoy the company of others - cuz you're only competing in the game, not in the sense of an ego trip per se, or to "prove" to others how much "better" you are etc. Just not to sacrifice your potential skill in a game by succumbing to artificial limitations that the story/setting seeks to impose, that's all.
Russ
Jedi Master
Well I like Quake 4 and I play duels which last 15 mins, I do it for lots of reasons, but mainly its just recreational. I like it because its not easy and if you aren't completely focussed for the 15 mins you die a lot. Its mainly about reactions, which you can improve with predicting what the other player will do, where they'll be etc. One thing about it is, if you are mechanical in how you play, you're completely predictable, you'll walk through doorways and the other player will have fired the rocket that hits you in the face two seconds before you walked into it. So you have to be as unpredictable as possible, but at the same time speed matters, so if you stand back from the doorway (predicting their rocket) then the other player has successfully slowed you down. So you have to predict even further ahead. Its a skill that is kind of universal, as it applies to a lot of decisions in life, it helps to be used to seeing the possibilities of what can happen, just to have that mindset. Also in a way its kind of creative, because if you are trapped somewhere then unless you want to die you have to come up with something the other player doesn't expect. In some ways its kind of like meditation because you can't lose focus, it involves mental discapline etc- like you can't start thinking about how lucky the other player was or you'll just waste time/brain power ;D
Single player games can be fun, I personally don't play many now because a few games of quake is enough, also I don't think they're anywhere near as good as they used to be.
I have some friends who play World of Warcraft and I refuse to play it. The other day I phoned one of them and they asked if I could call them back because they were starting a raid. I asked how long and he said 4-5 hours! :/ I wouldn't mind it if you didn't have to play it for that long. Even if I enjoyed it I would hate it because it would feel like my life is draining away :/
Single player games can be fun, I personally don't play many now because a few games of quake is enough, also I don't think they're anywhere near as good as they used to be.
I have some friends who play World of Warcraft and I refuse to play it. The other day I phoned one of them and they asked if I could call them back because they were starting a raid. I asked how long and he said 4-5 hours! :/ I wouldn't mind it if you didn't have to play it for that long. Even if I enjoyed it I would hate it because it would feel like my life is draining away :/
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
Fwiw, I think you're making a distinction there that doesn't exist - all gaming is draining your life away - it is not creative, it is becoming as machine-like and mechanical as the game itself in order to be good at it. Recreation and entertainment are both, at times, necessary to maintaining one's sanity - (we all need a break now and again) - but don't fool yourself into thinking that gaming is ever creative - it's not - it is simply a human being spending time interacting with a machine - the rest is illusion.Russ said:
Oh, and atreides, could you please use more mana (or wear your +5 cloak) next time you cast immolate on this thread - it just fed on your spell - no need for a resurrection at all.
GRiM
The Living Force
atreides hit the mark with his post IMHO.
I used to sacrifice alot of time on computer games and even tried to join a free MMORPG game once. I even think that starcraft hurt my school-grades a bit too. However as I became more aware of my behaviour and gathered a bit of knowledge I begun to see what I might had become if I had continued on that path (not giving up Computer games), my friend since high school are still playing many many hours a day and really don't have any interests besides games. I have even tried to tell him about all the occult stuff happening on this planet but he insists its just nonsense and must be fake, the one time I got trough to him (I think) he said he thought it would be best to ignore it :(
I sometimes download achived radioshows from Dr. Bill Deagles site (_http://www.clayandiron.com/audio.jhtml?method=categories) (claims to have worked on secrets projects in underground bases (DUMBs) , and in one of the programs he said that US military pushed for the development of video games (fps-genre i guess) as they would train the "kill-reflex" in potential soldiers. (you kill/frag hundreds of players and that would help you lessen the empathy "block" for killing in real life (not think about "enemies" family and that he/she is a human being on the same planet and so on))
With that said, that I don't like computer games and what they do to your time and energy, I still find myself playing the Unreal tournament 2004 demo sometimes, a fps with reflexes and lots of angry kids :)
Now if only I could drop that and my pointless internetbrowsing habit I would have a lot of more time/energy.
Edit: disabled link
I used to sacrifice alot of time on computer games and even tried to join a free MMORPG game once. I even think that starcraft hurt my school-grades a bit too. However as I became more aware of my behaviour and gathered a bit of knowledge I begun to see what I might had become if I had continued on that path (not giving up Computer games), my friend since high school are still playing many many hours a day and really don't have any interests besides games. I have even tried to tell him about all the occult stuff happening on this planet but he insists its just nonsense and must be fake, the one time I got trough to him (I think) he said he thought it would be best to ignore it :(
I sometimes download achived radioshows from Dr. Bill Deagles site (_http://www.clayandiron.com/audio.jhtml?method=categories) (claims to have worked on secrets projects in underground bases (DUMBs) , and in one of the programs he said that US military pushed for the development of video games (fps-genre i guess) as they would train the "kill-reflex" in potential soldiers. (you kill/frag hundreds of players and that would help you lessen the empathy "block" for killing in real life (not think about "enemies" family and that he/she is a human being on the same planet and so on))
With that said, that I don't like computer games and what they do to your time and energy, I still find myself playing the Unreal tournament 2004 demo sometimes, a fps with reflexes and lots of angry kids :)
Now if only I could drop that and my pointless internetbrowsing habit I would have a lot of more time/energy.
Edit: disabled link
Russ
Jedi Master
A distinction does exist between spending 15 minutes and 5 hours on a game, surely. The difference is I can play 15 minutes and the only other option is to do it again or stop. But with these MMORPG games, nearly everything seems to take hours, it seems to pretty much take 15 minutes just to get started.anart said:
When you say its not creative, that a player is just becoming as machine-like and mechanical as the game itself, do you mean that nothing is being created out of it? If so I would agree to a certain extent. However what I meant was that you have to think creatively, it encourages you to think of something different, which you hadn't thought of before, to use your brain to come up with ideas. So while the game itself might not be creative, ie. its just static rules, the thought processes are the same as when you're being creative. Like when you have a blank sheet of paper. I mean if you're going to spend time recreationally, then doing something which requires thought like that seems to me to be good "excersise" of the mind, which can come in useful in other endeavors.
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
Russ, it rather sounds like you haven't read this thread in its entirety - if you have read it, then perhaps you've forgotten the lengthy discussion that's already taken place? It's not creative thinking - it is thinking as much like the machine as possible to figure a way out - it's not reality - you are not really figuring your way out of anything, you are simply figuring out how the programmers would think to get out - do you grasp that difference?
I spent years playing games - thousands of hours wasted, I mean, I was in DEEP - so probably the only reason that I recognize the emptiness of your rationalization is because I told myself EXACTLY the same things - fwiw.
I spent years playing games - thousands of hours wasted, I mean, I was in DEEP - so probably the only reason that I recognize the emptiness of your rationalization is because I told myself EXACTLY the same things - fwiw.
http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/articles/show/135337-Psychopathic+video+game+is+%27fine+art%27+say+creators
Many computer/console games are of a violent nature, and are clearly designed to immunise ordinary folk against their own humanity.
What is there to discuss?
Joe
Many computer/console games are of a violent nature, and are clearly designed to immunise ordinary folk against their own humanity.
What is there to discuss?
Joe
I fully understand what you go trough, I got some friends who play WoW every day , I have explained them the horror in which we live now, and his reply on one of my answer were...''who cares'' ''let the smart people figure that out'' gaming is just another reality for them, their new home in which they are free to do what they want, and it's so sad that they won't even consider really thinking about it, and no matter how hard you try explaining it to them that it is draining their life, they wont listen anyway, because the machine is becoming their true home, they are slowly becoming the machine which they are playing, and I think most people DO KNOW that constant gaming does ruin your life, but those people that keep on playing daily have already given up on life.GRiM said:
I play games as well(unreal tournament 2004), but only 1 hour a day, not because I want to escape reality completly but because it's a toy I enjoy playing with and I need at least a bit of entertainment instead of reading all the time.
that's exactly what everyone is doing , shutting the world out or ignoring it, by playing constantly games, I mean what better way to ignore reality then playing games.
Russ
Jedi Master
For a lot of games, especially single player ones, I agree with you. But its not really like that with Quake because you're playing a human. Yes the computer calculates all of the physics and item times and knowing that does help, but in the end there isn't much difference between being taken by surprise by someone in Quake as there is in the real world. The only difference in Quake is that its a simulation, so if you make mistakes you don't pay a "real" price, and in some ways its the same in regards to you don't really acheive anything if you win. But in the end the method of thinking is still the same, and you are repeatedly struck down for assuming things. I can see a benefit to that, even if there is no material or real world gain involved, simply because it shows you the danger - if it were real you would have faltered and in some ways it can act as a good shock. It can also help to keep overconfidence in check. Another thing is having to remain focussed, which is good for developing self disapline.anart said:
I can see a lot of benefits in playing the game, specifically Quake duels, as a recreational activity, over many other kinds of game or recreational activities such as a walk in the park. As long as I'm not playing it for hours on end and therefore shutting out my chances of being able to do anything in the real world, I see it as a good thing, not a bad thing. But I get the feeling that we aren't going to be in agreement unless I say there is absolutely 0% benefit to playing Quake duels to anyone or anything at all, other than "relaxation/recreation" for myself. I agree its a recreational activity but I think there are other benefits to it aswell.
Well, I don't think I am telling myself these things, I think its real and that I know what I'm doing. Also I don't think I'm in that deep, I just play a couple of duels a day and try to improve each time I play. I did used to be in games very deep and nearly lost a job because of it (spent too much time playing at night and couldn't wake up in the mornings). But I didn't rationalise it with myself, I knew what I was doing, I just didn't really care. It was only when I realised how much of my life it was eating away that I stopped playing for a few years. But then I went back to it a couple of years ago with the intent of having a lot more control over how much time I spent on them, I found Quake duels and realised it was something I could fit into my life without it ruining it. Also I found that it improved my thinking in real life, my decision making etc. basically that it was good excersise of my mind. I don't think its a rationalisation, or that I even need one, its just a side effect that I noticed.anart said:
dant
The Living Force
Russ:
Are you in full understanding of Anart's import?
The fact that anyone spends any time at all with games, is one deeply conscious and
completely in control of self while playing these games whilst the world around might
be crashing down all around and one's moment of achieving the real aim in "The Work"
might be lost? Is it possible at all for "games" to help one to be in keeping with one's
true aim?
Is it possible that "entertainment" can be subjective (a trap?) and/or objective in
"The Work" and perhaps depends how one chooses to DO "The Work" and to be in
keeping with one's true aim?
OSIT.
Are you in full understanding of Anart's import?
The fact that anyone spends any time at all with games, is one deeply conscious and
completely in control of self while playing these games whilst the world around might
be crashing down all around and one's moment of achieving the real aim in "The Work"
might be lost? Is it possible at all for "games" to help one to be in keeping with one's
true aim?
Is it possible that "entertainment" can be subjective (a trap?) and/or objective in
"The Work" and perhaps depends how one chooses to DO "The Work" and to be in
keeping with one's true aim?
OSIT.
vinny
The Living Force
you got it!russ said:
that sounds like 'addict-speak' to me, and that you are in some kind of denial.russ said:
how is all that you just said NOT a rationalisation?
can you not see that there is at least an element of addiction going on here?
I know all about quake. used to play it lots, ran daily LAN sessions for over a year, even created quite a few (rather good) deathmatch levels of my own. I still very occasionally play computer games (last time was probably a couple of months ago). but I don't kid myself over what it is all about.
you could probably fit aspartame into your life without ruining it. doesn't make it good though!russ said:
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
Wow, Russ from that rationalization, it sounds like you're in much deeper than I thought you were. How about replacing the word 'games' or 'Quake' with 'drugs' and see how your post reads.
It's the same thing - but no way you'd ever convince an addict of that.
The world is on fire - we have VERY little time left to get ourselves where we need to be (internally) and you think pushing buttons to make electronic images on a screen do something to other electronic images on a screen is worth any time at all? It is another human on the other end of those electronic images you say? No - it's not - it's another mechanical being doing anything and everything possible to stay asleep - to stop the pain of reality - to escape and remain in this burning building never smelling the smoke - it is a machine - exactly like you are a machine when you are gaming.
But - no way you'd ever convince an addict of that.
It's the same thing - but no way you'd ever convince an addict of that.
The world is on fire - we have VERY little time left to get ourselves where we need to be (internally) and you think pushing buttons to make electronic images on a screen do something to other electronic images on a screen is worth any time at all? It is another human on the other end of those electronic images you say? No - it's not - it's another mechanical being doing anything and everything possible to stay asleep - to stop the pain of reality - to escape and remain in this burning building never smelling the smoke - it is a machine - exactly like you are a machine when you are gaming.
But - no way you'd ever convince an addict of that.
