Games

[Kesdjan]

Fwiw, I think you're making a distinction there that doesn't exist - all gaming is draining your life away - it is not creative, it is becoming as machine-like and mechanical as the game itself in order to be good at it. Recreation and entertainment are both, at times, necessary to maintaining one's sanity - (we all need a break now and again) - but don't fool yourself into thinking that gaming is ever creative - it's not - it is simply a human being spending time interacting with a machine - the rest is illusion.

I do not fully understand the meaning of you post- you say all gaming is not creative then talk about a machine. Not all games are computer games! Teachers employ Jeopardy-like games to inspire an interest in learning. What are games but simplified versions of life? As a microcosm of life, games teach many of life's lessons in a condensed form- cooperation, competition, strategey (I imagine the basic rules of the kind of "chess" 4D STS plays are much the same as our chess). Here are some more interesting thoughts on games from an article by Kevin Langdon, a fourth way student.

Many who accept the assumptions of contemporary New Age thought self-righteously proclaim that they "don't play games," then immediately lay incredible expectations on those around them, in the name of supposed agreements these others have never heard of or of "principles" which rest on metaphysical assumptions amounting to the belief that "affirming" what one would like to believe makes it true in reality. These people deny the necessity of accepting the world as it is and live in fantasy.

In order to be free of insincerity with other people on some level or other, even with the best will in the world, one would have to know oneself to a degree which cannot even be imagined as long as one lives in an imaginary world of moral absolutes, and one does not possess the best will in the world, but the ordinary human, fragmented will through which people cannot accomplish such obviously necessary and simple actions as refraining from smoking, eating too much, or oversleeping in the morning.

The inability of people to see their own immersion in game structures illustrates what may well be the most interesting way in which the idea of "game" is applicable to human life. In playing a game, and particularly a game in which one is interested, it is very easy to lose one's broader perspective and forget about everything outside the immediate game reality. This is a very good picture of man's relationship to the concerns of his life. In many times and places, and especially in our own culture, people have laughed at anyone who is interested in philosophy or goes in search of self-knowledge, proving that they are so immersed in whatever concerns command their attention that they have forgotten that they are alive--tiny creatures in a great and fundamentally unknown universe.

Thus a game provides a great temptation to lose oneself and become swallowed up in the process of playing. But with this temptation there also comes an opportunity to see, on a smaller and (often) more intelligible scale of time, space, and complexity, exactly how one's attention is fragmented and stolen by the failure to remember, in the course of dealing with one's immediate concerns, the larger context in which they are located.

 

[anart]

Not all games are computer games!

This thread is specifically about computer gaming - have you read the entire thread?

 

[Russ]

that sounds like 'addict-speak' to me, and that you are in some kind of denial.
how is all that you just said NOT a rationalisation?
can you not see that there is at least an element of addiction going on here?

Well, what do you do for recreation, or do you just work 100%? Its just something that I enjoy to break up the work in my life so that I don't become overwhelmed by it all. Its not really like a drug in the sense that its causing me long term physical and psychological damage. Is there addiction there? Well maybe, but lets say I stopped playing it, I would probably go and play tennis or something to acheive the same thing. So to me its more of a need to have some kind of recreation, rather than being addicted to a certain form of it. Its just that it fits well into my lifestyle, you know, I don't have to spend too much time doing it and its right here on the computer.

I know all about quake. used to play it lots, ran daily LAN sessions for over a year, even created quite a few (rather good) deathmatch levels of my own. I still very occasionally play computer games (last time was probably a couple of months ago). but I don't kid myself over what it is all about.

What exactly do you think I am kidding myself about?

you could probably fit aspartame into your life without ruining it. doesn't make it good though!

But I can't think of a single good reason to fit aspartame into my life, yet I can think of a good reason to fit a few minutes of quake into my life, or some form of recreation. Maybe after I have progressed further I won't need to play some kind of game to have a break, but at the moment I find it helps.

Wow, Russ from that rationalization, it sounds like you're in much deeper than I thought you were. How about replacing the word 'games' or 'Quake' with 'drugs' and see how your post reads.

It's the same thing - but no way you'd ever convince an addict of that.

The world is on fire - we have VERY little time left to get ourselves where we need to be (internally) and you think pushing buttons to make electronic images on a screen do something to other electronic images on a screen is worth any time at all?

Ahh I don't know, maybe I am in really deep and just don't know it, but I still can't see it even after all you've said. Like I said I personally find it quite useful for more than recreation, even though it is just a form of recreation. Also I feel that I need occasional recreation - I am the kind of person who will get very bored with nothing but work, and lose motivation. I even get bored of quake after a couple of duels and I refuse to play any other game, so I don't know why its so bad.

 

[vinny]

hi Russ,

look back over what you have written. you seem to be flip-flopping between "it is MORE than just recreation, it is actually useful" and then the contradicting "so what if I need a break sometimes - it is only recreational", so basically you are on the defensive. but why be defensive? no one's perfect.

ok. what I am trying to express is: YES, we all could do with a break and a bit of fun now and then. so go ahead, do it - no problem.

But don't CALL it something else like 'useful' simply in order to make yourself feel better about it. just admit to yourself that you are indulging a bit, and get on with it. Is this so hard? or do you maybe have a self-view of being 'perfect' that you have to live up to? this is a common problem but can actually be quite a dangerous one, because it causes us to put up psychological barriers so that we cannot see ourselves as we are - any observation that threatens our self-image then becomes externally projected, in order for the ego to absolutely defend it's world-view to the hilt. it is a big obstacle to self-observation, and to any kind of progress towards objectivity.

 

[seekingObjectivity]

Russ,

I've thought about what's been said and in terms of addiction whether that addiction is surfing the web for no particular purpose, playing computer games, going golfing, playing tennis, or even making waves in the bathtub ;) (Come on...you know it's fun!? J/K!) It seems to me that if any of these activities are not done with a focused attention on what is ACTUALLY being done then it would seem that such activities would not nor could they bring any such benefit to one's sole purpose, that is, to understand our machinations, correct? Another way I think about it is this: If there was placed both poison in my mouth and poison in my hand then how would I choose to die? I should die only if eat of it. What is worth more the taste in my mouth or the weight in my hand? If it is the hand then what is my fate? And if it is in the mouth? If I die by the mouth then I must crave my sorrow. If it is in the hand then what is there to do with rotting food? I think you may now what I am trying to get at but that is how I think about it sometimes and it seems to help keep myself in check.

 

[Russ]

hi Russ,

look back over what you have written. you seem to be flip-flopping between "it is MORE than just recreation, it is actually useful" and then the contradicting "so what if I need a break sometimes - it is only recreational", so basically you are on the defensive. but why be defensive? no one's perfect.

What I mean by that is that it is recreation which can be useful - a form of recreation which has benefits other than "just" being recreational. Yes, also I like it, there is a definate part of me which enjoys it. I don't see why you think I'm on the defensive though, I certainly don't see you as being on the offensive. But I think maybe I'm not being clear enough with what I am saying, so you are taking it the wrong way.

But don't CALL it something else like 'useful' simply in order to make yourself feel better about it.

Hmm I don't think I'm doing that. I don't see why I'd need to feel better abour it, I was just mentioning that it can be quite good for seeing how automatic my actions can be, especially when it comes to having to make quick decisions, and that it can highlight things about myself which I didn't really notice before.

just admit to yourself that you are indulging a bit, and get on with it. Is this so hard? or do you maybe have a self-view of being 'perfect' that you have to live up to?

No, I don't know why you would think that. Its just that its not a cut and dry situation, its a mixture of things. Its not just "pure" indulgance. Yes I enjoy it and look forward to a game, but there are times when I realise that the reason I lost a game can be connected, psychologically, with many other mistakes I make in the real world.

this is a common problem but can actually be quite a dangerous one, because it causes us to put up psychological barriers so that we cannot see ourselves as we are - any observation that threatens our self-image then becomes externally projected, in order for the ego to absolutely defend it's world-view to the hilt. it is a big obstacle to self-observation, and to any kind of progress towards objectivity.

Well, ask me about coca cola and chocolate xD You know I have no good explanation for eating chocolate or drinking coke other than I just like it. Actually recently I stopped drinking so much coke and drink water now, but yeah I know what you mean, I'm not completely blind to that side of myself, and I don't feel bad about not being perfect.

 

[dant]

Hi Russ:

Well, what do you do for recreation, or do you just work 100%?

I think, the devil is in the details, but what is "recreation" and what is "work" and exactly
how are the two terms related if at all or can the two terms overlap, to mean exactly the
same thing or is it interchangeable?

For some people "work" can mean "recreation", for others "recreation" can mean "work"
so it depends on one's perspective? You might notice that "work" or "recreation" can get
one's self killed if they are not discerning and in control of one's self?

A person becomes an addict when s/he loses control of self?

Sometimes "innocent things" aren't so "innocent" and on the first try can be the last but it
mostly starts out for awhile, plays along, and then traps one when one becomes less and
less discerning?

Life is NOT a game, it is very real, and one ought to be discerning with one's life? But as it is,
we live in a free-will universe. So be it.

OSIT.

 

[Renaissance]

Hi Russ,

If you haven't yet, you should check out Laura's post, Buffer, Programs, The "Predator's Mind" I think it could be helpful in see how gaming is a buffer and a part of the predator's mind. 50megz also brought up disassociation being a relevant topic here and I agree. And this seems key to me. I think you're probably aware that games put people in a disassociative state and it's the repetition and ease in which we can slide into this state that allows us to manipulate and be manipulated. When the imprint is repetitively used, it also makes it easy to enter disassociation in everyday life when not playing.

Have you honestly considered that what everyone here is telling you is true, and also that you may be lying to yourself?

There will always appear to be benefits of the drug for someone who is denying that they're an addict. 'Relief from stress' is a common reason given. It is this stress that must be looked at, and our ability to deal with it. Our emotional center may be deadened by suppression so likely the 'stress' may often not even be felt, but if you watch your interactions prior to the urge to game, you might find a trigger that you could see bothersome to somebody. I noticed reading SotT was a stress causing trigger and I would often enter into a dissociative state immediately after, through any one of my addictions. This, imo, put a damper on the fusing quality of the shock.

The other reason you give is that it is actually beneficial to you. I hope you realize what you're saying at some point. People already mentioned how playing a computer isn't particularly rewarding, but that's probably because we don't actually get to prey on another person. In fact, the other person is reduced in nature to be an object for your enjoyment - or learning about yourself as you state. The other side of the coin that goes along with it is that you're objectifying yourself too - you're devaluing your essential self to be a commercial product to not only for recreation but also to improve yourself... Do you think that is possible?

 

[atreides]

Oh, and atreides, could you please use more mana (or wear your +5 cloak) next time you cast immolate on this thread - it just fed on your spell - no need for a resurrection at all.

It's all good, I will be at 201 soon enough and my BP will max out my int/wis/dex, so that should do it.

I tend to have a sort of a basic theory on games, and I will put it out there. I have heard alot of peoples ideas, and theories, and this is partly based on some of them, and also my basic understanding of psychology.

Seeing games as creative/not creative, I think is a bit difficult for people because objectively seeing that what you are doing is destructive instead of constructive, or more destructive than constructive, is a difficult proposition. Now I don't claim to be able to see it that way, instead, I look at it around a happy medium.

Games are essentially a simplified reflection of reality. People have trouble dealing with the complexity of life, and the endless pulling and pushing of a and b influences. While obviously I am saying that it's a form of self-tranquilization, it's more than that. It's not just escapism, people need and want to feel as if they accomplish something, they need to make progress in their lives and get better. Games provide a sure bet. If you sit down and play, you will naturally get better, simply interacting with the world increases your power and ability, the more you interact the more you get back. The amount of work you do is directly proportioned to the amount of work.

Reality doesn't quite work this way, or so it seems.

When you are in perfect harmony, or balance, that is, you do not negate your constructions with destructions, then you actually would in theory receive rewards proportional to the amount of work you put in. The problem is, people unconsciously destroy while trying to consciously create, and so it seems like an uphill battle, and it's all the universes fault. Imagine building a sand castle with your hands as your feet behind you are knocking it down. Each time you turn around to fix what fell down, your feet kick over another part of your sand castle.

Games provide a digital sandcastle that your feet can't knock over.

Unfortunately, what you create in the game is not a real creation, it's a digital creation, it has to reality in the world you exist in, you are simply manipulating another reality. Read into this 4d STS, they are essentially doing to us what we do to games. Since you are spending all of your time creating things that are essentially not even a part of your reality, then you spend no time creating, or less and less time, creating things in the real reality, therefore you begin to get less and less rewards from reality, while your unreal rewards that don't translate to real rewards are multiplying, the destruction of your reality is increasing without any construction, because all of you constructive energy is being fed into another physically inaccessible reality, your reality is slowly collapsing, falling apart, dieing, imploding, getting smaller etc.

Each time you peek up into your own reality, you see more of what sent you into the fantasy to begin with. Naturally, the core of the problem is narcissism, the inability to admit you are responsible for the state of yourself, your position, your level, in your reality. The universe isn't at fault. So essentially, we are all captain Ahab, blaming the universe for biting our leg off after we tried to harpoon it.

Didn't I say everyone should watch Wrath of Kahn? There you have it, the Universe is Kirk, and we are Kahn. Anne is definitely Bones, Scott is Scotty, naturally, and Juliana is Uhura, umm, Joe is Sulu, Henry is Checkov, I am crewman #2...omg, I'm the guy who dies in the first five minutes to prove the situation is serious!!!

Ya, so, just my two cents...or sense...hahaha.

You fade into existance behind a Discussion About Games.
a Discussion About Games is in perfect health.
Your backstab does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [652]
Your backstab does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [678]
Your backstab does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [670]
Your backstab does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [652]
Your torment does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [1030]
Your slice does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [658]
Your cleave does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [400]

a Discussion About Games has a few minor scratches.

Oi, this is gonna take awhile, flee.

 

[Mark]

Fwiw, I think you're making a distinction there that doesn't exist - all gaming is draining your life away - it is not creative, it is becoming as machine-like and mechanical as the game itself in order to be good at it. Recreation and entertainment are both, at times, necessary to maintaining one's sanity - (we all need a break now and again) - but don't fool yourself into thinking that gaming is ever creative - it's not - it is simply a human being spending time interacting with a machine - the rest is illusion.

I do not fully understand the meaning of you post- you say all gaming is not creative then talk about a machine. Not all games are computer games! Teachers employ Jeopardy-like games to inspire an interest in learning.

The point to keep in mind about any game is that if it makes a person dissociate then it's a 'bad thing' since dissociation leads to all sorts of other more serious problems - like not being able to consistently look at reality objectively, which in turns lets psychopathic leaders do nearly anything they want and get away with it...

Also if someone is prone to dissociate then it's far easier to manipulate that person. And if someone can be manipulated then they're a tool and no longer in control of their life - duh. That carries a lot of implications.

So to willingly teach one's self to dissociate by playing games that lead to that sort of mental state is plain stupid, in my perspective anyway. And it's not just games, other activities like watching TV, sometimes have the same effects.

Life is NOT a game. It's deadly serious. It's best to learn to pay strict attention, for those who aspire to The Work anyway. Here's a quote from the C's that can help us understand why dissociation is so extremely dangerous in a much larger perspective:

"Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the worlds will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the 'past.' People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the 'Future.'"

Dissociation is a road to becoming a dream in the past. Until we learn any particular lesson the lesson repeats, usually in more extreme ways, assuming that someone needs to learn any particular lesson -- It could be that one's life choice is to ignore and shut out...

If you're interested in how dissociation works and causes severe mental blindness then start by reading The Myth of Sanity by Martha Stout. Her book deals dissociative identity disorder caused by trauma, and the same principles apply to gaming.

 

[j0da]

You fade into existance behind a Discussion About Games.
a Discussion About Games is in perfect health.
Your backstab does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [652]
Your backstab does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [678]
Your backstab does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [670]
Your backstab does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [652]
Your torment does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [1030]
Your slice does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [658]
Your cleave does UNSPEAKABLE things to a Discussion About Games [400]

a Discussion About Games has a few minor scratches.

Oi, this is gonna take awhile, flee.

Playing a Thief has it's bright moments but not until you get to the level where triple damage is done on successful roll. Up to this time it's better to hang out with a Wizard who can cast Cone of Cold thus turning everything into ice and then ask the Fighter to smash the stubborn critter into pieces with his hammer.

But what do I know about cooperation? I play the Cleric every time, doing the healing as well as killing myself. Trying to need no one I probably carry my own psychological shorcomings into the gaming world, thus wherever I go - there I am :( Even in never-land...

 

[NORDIC HEALER]

For whatever reason I have never been attracted to the computer gaming thing from its inception until now. Being fundamentally too serious and preferring actual doing over vicarious extensions I think to ever get into these repetitive, multi tiered, Fakey, contrived situations, which in most games has something, or EVERYTHING to do with overcoming (through KILLING of course) your adversary, (who are they anyway?). This is Not my idea of a pleasant, relaxing past-time. (Ever notice how worked up gamers get?)

Note: I am referring to the vaste genre of games that deal with Wars, Terrorism, or simply put the Good/Bad guy stuff, which is a Huge part of the games that most people seem to play.

One Game Plan, Programmed Desensitization for KILLING without Conscience.

Killing is easy, with a lil' practice and effort you can do it too. No consequences either. Nope none, other than you strangely Advance to the upper Eshalons of the game with the more Killing you do. Yep. Want more POWER and CONTROL and prestige?? Just KILL more than anyone else. Yep, that's all there's to it. Psychopathy anyone?. Practice makes perfect. Lets get it right cus the end is near.

Addictive??

You bet!!

What's really scary is youngs kids are already bitten by this odd viral bug by the time they are in grade school. (Lets make sure and get them started Early, lest they get off on a wrong track not designed by the Drach's).

I have had friends who have told me they were so totally LOCKED IN (Jailed anyone?) on games, that they would go "round the clock". They were unable to BREAK AWAY to eat, sleep, barely making bathroom trips, and called in sick to their jobs, all because they became so utterly OBSESSED! They kept getting pulled around the "next corner", the "next Level" or "Tier", the next hypothetical drama. When they finally emerge out of this strange Hypnotic-trance-like state, they told me in a brief interlude of Self Honesty, that they had lost almost all sense of reality for awhile and were utterly drained, exhausted, dizzy, their eyes burning and blurry, they were confused and shakey and even scared because it seems the outer world and the world of the game merge into a surreal landscape all its own.

hmmmmm...

I think there is MUCH MORE to these games than meets the eye, and clouds the brain (pardon the pun).

Now that couldn't be a good thing, eh?

 

[Cyre2067]

Killing is easy, with a lil' practice and effort you can do it too. No consequences either. Nope none, other than you strangely Advance to the upper Eshalons of the game with the more Killing you do. Yep. Want more POWER and CONTROL and prestige?? Just KILL more than anyone else. Yep, that's all there's to it. Psychopathy anyone?. Practice makes perfect. Lets get it right cus the end is near.

Have you seen the new army commerical where the kids are playing a video game and then it morphs into a soldier asking them if they want a 'real challenge'?

lol, i found it on youtube: _http://youtube.com/watch?v=XkKF4ZcqW14

 

[Zadius Sky]

Have you seen the new army commerical where the kids are playing a video game and then it morphs into a soldier asking them if they want a 'real challenge'?

lol, i found it on youtube: _http://youtube.com/watch?v=XkKF4ZcqW14

Since I stopped watching television for about three or four months (except for watching DVDs), I have no idea of any new commericals or any attempts on my mind to do their bidding. That commerical, as Cyre provided, is truly interesting. Army is pouring alot of money into their commericals, trying to lull many into their military. What is the best way than getting younglings who are involved in video games?

I have had friends who have told me they were so totally LOCKED IN (Jailed anyone?) on games, that they would go "round the clock". They were unable to BREAK AWAY to eat, sleep, barely making bathroom trips, and called in sick to their jobs, all because they became so utterly OBSESSED!

That is truly the truth. I've been involved in games throughout my teenage years until college (when I found out the games messed up my thinking process, and unable to focus on college studies). Plus, I had hard time sleeping. And, when I do sleep, I usually get nightmares (usually from DOOM games). It is addictive, and it is an unwise way to "kill time."

 

[brandon]

Occasionally people ask me (me being the Alpha Nerd in my family) what game they should buy for their young kid/nephew/cousin/etc.. Nowadays I say "get them some music making software, or Photoshop, Flash, video editing software or a programming language". Far more rewarding than any game.

I think it's just because games are so mainstream these days that more kids aren't into making stuff on the computer. (Well maybe there are lots who are? But among the younger people I know, not many). I begged for a C compiler for Christmas one year as a kid... sadly my parents ended up buying me a copy of Fortran. :)

[edit] Ok, I shouldn't say "it's JUST because..", but "it's partially because..". Obviously there'd be a lot of other factors too..