Greece: debt, creditors, austerity measures, Syriza, Varoufakis, Troika

Alana said:
The Greek economic minister, Yanis Varoufakis, 2 days ago was in Germany and gave a good speech asking for the help that Greece actually needs, not the one forced to take (which is not help at all). See link. Varoufakis' talk starts at about 12 minutes and ends at the one hour mark.

http://livestream.com/dmake/zukunft/videos/89664402

Thank you for that link Alana. It was very interesting listening how Varoufakis explains situation in Greece and Europe overall. It seems that nobody will have much luck in Eastern Europe with this kind of EU politics, and especially nobody in Balkans. We all need from EU the kind of help that Varoufakis asks for, but I doubt that we will get that.

In all the countries that they are trying to 'help' they are asking for the same things - this year in Serbia we lowered the salaries and pensions, and now the IMF is asking us to raise the price of electricity by 15%. And we also have the same problem as Greece - the monopoly of two chain stores who dictate the prices.

Yes, there are many things that need to be solved with the help from somebody from aside, but not like this. This will help nobody.

Varoufakis also said some interesting things after he finished his main speech in these timings:

01:15:50 - 1:20:50

01:29:40 - 1:35:10

01:44:25 - 1:51:25

01:58:50 - 02:06:50

02:13:35 - 02:20:35
 
Alana said:
Anthony said:
It's hard to believe that Syriza thinks that they can reach some sort of an agreement with the IMF
vultures, I think Tsipras is well aware of how they operate, or at least I hope he does. Maybe they're
just trying to buy time, though I have no idea for what exactly
.

For the deal with Russia about the Greek Stream perhaps? Or even entering the Eurasian Union? I really don't know. They might be just as naive and think that the EE lords would lend them eventually the help they need (not bailouts) or they might be buying time, meanwhile saying the things that would make the voters happy and present themselves as really trying, so they can say in the end: We did all we could with our European partners but it ain't working, we have to turn elsewhere.

Thanks Alana for the link to the interview with Varoufakis. I too feel they are buying time, for possible deals with Russia, or maybe a deal involving a "win-win" scenario with China or BRICs members. I recall that China already operates the port in Piraeus... and for Greece to move away from the Eurozone, they definitely have to go down the path where they say " We did all we could with our European partners but it ain't working, we have to turn elsewhere". Staying in the EU, would only mean more shock therapy, poverty and misery. I hope they have something planned as an alternative....fingers crossed !

Interestingly, the comments in the RT article came when Tsipras was interviewed by the Italian paper Il Corriere della Sera which also interviewed Putin. In the Putin interview, when he was asked about Greece, he mentioned that any outcome of this situation must be decided by the people of Greece itself (can't recall exact words, but along this line). With this comment, and thinking about what the C's previously said about Greece & Russian help (7th Feb 2015 session), i think its possible something is brewing in the background, and thats why they have chosen this path and are playing the waiting game....what it is exactly i don't know too...
 
Alana said:
For the deal with Russia about the Greek Stream perhaps? Or even entering the Eurasian Union? I really don't know. They might be just as naive and think that the EE lords would lend them eventually the help they need (not bailouts) or they might be buying time, meanwhile saying the things that would make the voters happy and present themselves as really trying, so they can say in the end: We did all we could with our European partners but it ain't working, we have to turn elsewhere.

I think Alana is spot on here. The Greek public has been, and still is, bombarded by an Orwellian terror campaign concerning the possibility of a Grexit and a return to the former Greek currency, the drachma. All of nation-wide broadcast TV stations in Greece are still owned by the oligarchs who are heavily invested in making the government of SYRIZA last as little as possible for their own survival, and for the survival of the old political guard they were serving. Tsipras and his government fight on two fronts really, the foreign and the domestic. Tsipras has announced a thorough examination about how these oligarch-owned TV stations were given broadcast licenses in the first place, and also how they managed to get huge loans from the banks and still owe money to everyone: they have unpaid rents, unpaid employees, unpaid bills and a tv station called "MEGA" was even found to be stealing electricity a few days ago.

For that reason my estimate is that Tsipras will probably try or appear he tried to exhaust all negotiation possibilities before a potential Grexit, which I personally think its unavoidable judging from what news I read from Greek politics. SYRIZA itself is a coalition of smaller leftist parties, some ranging from communist to almost anarchist. Since this is the first time in modern Greek history that a leftist party holds the government, there is an added historic pressure for a great part of SYRIZA to remain faithful to its ideology. Any new agreement will have to be voted by the parliament, and these 30-40 SYRIZA MPs that belong to these parties will be very hard to convince to vote for a new program of austerity in order to remain in Eurozone. That would equal their political suicide.

So, things in Greece are quite complex. It is like a grand game of poker of very high stakes played between Greece and it's European "partners" and IMF. And in a poker game of almost life and death, one cannot expect the truth or any player's true intentions to be spoken out loud or revealed. Very few real news come out at this period, everything is just calculated rumors and hearsay, and usually conflicting and disorienting. That is why as I live in Greece, I have come to refrain from following the everyday "news" here, apart from few selected sources. But time is really running out, and one way or another we will have to have some more solid news soon as some very critical deadlines for Greek economy are just a few weeks ahead. Especially concerning the huge payments of national debt that are expected to be fulfilled, and whose cost is more than 12 billion Euros, just for the next two summer months... This pill will be really hard to swallow for both Greek economy as well as Greek society.

Thank you.
 
I think Greece definitely has some "lifesavers" it can grab from the new Eurasian powers like Russia and China, and the BRICS, SCO, and other organizations that are creating an alternative to the dystopian Empire, also with all the Silk Road and Eurasion integration projects. If the political will is there and the SYRIZA leadership plays their cards right, they'll be able to save Greece and her people from the predators. I hope the will succeed.

I'll try to watch that video tomorrow morning.

@spyraal, good to see you back on the forum, and thanks for your input. Aren't all these sickening oligarchs and their companies and media the same everywhere? Same MO....
 
Thanks spyraal for your trenchant comments, fully agree with yours and Alana views as well.

Just thinking about the situation in Greece yesterday, i would like to add that i have deep respect and admiration for Tsipras and his team - as they are sticking to their ideals and mandate to the Greek people even when negotiating/working against immense forces that are alligned against them and trying to ensure their failure. So rare these days to to see leadership that actually cares for its citizens, and is willing to defend them, and try and fix social/economic problems.
 
Mr.Cyan said:
Thanks spyraal for your trenchant comments, fully agree with yours and Alana views as well.

Just thinking about the situation in Greece yesterday, i would like to add that i have deep respect and admiration for Tsipras and his team - as they are sticking to their ideals and mandate to the Greek people even when negotiating/working against immense forces that are alligned against them and trying to ensure their failure. So rare these days to to see leadership that actually cares for its citizens, and is willing to defend them, and try and fix social/economic problems.

If you have the time, watch the following video, it's about an hour and 45 minutes long, and shows how the British and Americans tried to eradicate the Left in Greece after WWII. And all the governments before Syriza were pawns of the PTB since then, working against the citizens of Greece, brainwashing the people about the true history or lying to them about the debt and the bailouts. When the greek people voted for Syriza, they were going against all that, and it is these powers that the new government has to face today, along with Troika. It's a really tragic story, one we saw unveil in other countries as well.

Scroll down to watch it, it's in english with greek subtitles:

http://el.sott.net/article/1168-o-afanhs-polemos-vretanias-kai-hpa-enantiwn-twn-ellhnwn
 
I read somewhere this morning that the IMF left the negotiations with Greece in a huff because the Greeks refused concessions on IMF demands. Looking hopeful, at least for now.
 
If financial attack doesn't work they have plenty of other things they can use against Greece. From outright lies and media manipulation, blackmail, taking advantage of genuine greivances of the population due to Western imposed debt slavery, activating their terrorist network etc. The same pattern is usually repeated, we've seen it most recently in Macedonia.
 
Thanks Alana for the links to the documentary, have already watched part 1, and going to watch part two soon. Really meaningful documentary that provides context to the current situation in Greece, thanks again.

As SeekinTruth mentioned, also read about it today in Sott, about the IMF walking out of negotiations and issuing an ultimatum to the Greek government. Geez, this really reminds me of psychopathic wishful thinking ! I mean don't the IMF realise, that this path will only push Greece into a corner, and there are already other alternatives for economic help in debt financing (BRICS Bank, AIIB) - they are definitely not the only show in town. It seems the Empire, just can't understand its declining power, and wishfully think that Syriza can be threatened to capitulate...sigh ! Or maybe is this exactly what they want ? i mean to force a default, a Grexit from the Euro, and then a global economic crisis to follow with the US dollar being dragged down ? The " financial nuclear option" that Perceval has written about. Im not sure, but the situation seems really to be on a knife edge....
 
I've thought about the idea of forcing Greece to exit the Eurozone. That would certainly speed up the process of unraveling the whole monetary union AND the EU. I'm not sure they want that or to take the US down. I think they just want to manage the timing of the inevitable. And set up plenty of scapegoats to blame for the whole house of cards collapsing....
 
Actually, there is no legal framework in the EU under which any country can be thrown out of the Eurozone. IMO, this fact alone can be considered a clue that Eurozone architects probably never envisioned Eurozone to shrink but only to expand. Of course part of the plan could very likely include Eurozone being assimilated in the future by an even more global and centralized monetary system (a trans-atlantic one for example), but it's current likely dismemberment is in my view something that does not serve the elite's agenda. If that happens, all that will be left for them to do will be damage control by trying to make Greece suffer dearly for it's defiance, and thus setting a painful example for the other exit candidate countries of the European South. A "scorched earth" policy. But no easy and simple solutions exist anymore: Because how are they going to preserve the EU's "democratic" facade (which has already suffered more major blows during negotiations with SYRIZA) and at the same time keep the other Southern countries that also suffered from austerity in the Eurozone, if Greece exits and then succeeds? Imagine how it would feel for Italian or Spanish people if Greece manages to start growing back it's economy after a Grexit, free to run it's own policies with the help of Russia and the other BRICS countries... The insignificant Greek flames of now (Greece represents a mere 3% of EU's GDP) would turn into a full blown wild fire that will be very hard to contain...

Back in 2009 when the crisis started in Greece, there were two major political parties ruling the political spectrum by holding about 80% of the votes, PASOK (Panhellenic Socialist Movement) and ND (New Democracy). These parties were indeed a known quantity for the elite planners. They were very well known to be but complete obedient puppets after so many scandals and bribery that took place during the past 30 years, when the one succeeded the other in power in Greek politics. The ground seemed to be set for what would followed. SYRIZA at the beginning of the crisis was but a leftist political oddity hardly earning the 3% of the votes required to enter parliament. I think no-one could seriously believe that in 2015 SYRIZA would really claim the government, not even SYRIZA's own most loyal voters. This fact together with the argument presented in my first paragraph have me thinking that is is unlikely that current events are orchestrated from a higher level by the elite. It feels to me more like evidence of their arrogance and their typical non-reality based wishful thinking and over-estimation.

So, as I mentioned before, Greece cannot be opted out or expelled from the Eurozone. What can be done instead, since European Central Bank (ECB) controls monetary liquidity in Eurozone, is to suffocate the economy while taking the calculated risk that Greece will be forced to exit itself. And this is what has been going on. Although Greece has not received any money from it's lenders since last August, the country has still paid 17,5 billion Euros during these past 10 months to service it's debt, all by it's own budget from taxes. So no wonder Greek coiffures are almost empty, and this situation cannot continue for much longer. During the crisis years, the austerity has risen the national debt by another 20%, and is now reaching an enormous 176% of the annual GDP. A child can understand these numbers are not viable. Even a 50% write off of the national debt that SYRIZA asks at the moment in the negotiations, would still in the long run be like just buying some time, as long as Greek economy is suffocating inside a Eurozone. A Eurozone that was built to fit big industrial export economies of the scale of Germany and maybe France, and not for the non-industrialized and mainly agricultural and touristic economy of Greece. This reality is at last becoming common knowledge in Greece. The following few weeks will be most critical.

Thank you all, and also SeekinTruth for the welcoming back to the forum. :flowers:
 
Anthony said:
If financial attack doesn't work they have plenty of other things they can use against Greece. From outright lies and media manipulation, blackmail, taking advantage of genuine greivances of the population due to Western imposed debt slavery, activating their terrorist network etc. The same pattern is usually repeated, we've seen it most recently in Macedonia.

We can but expect the worst from the elite psychopaths, but here are some thoughts of mine for these occasions you mention:

Lies and media manipulation are "valid" tactics but have been so over-used these past years in Greece, and their power has weakened a lot. When you are being threatened every month for six years that "the next month will be your last", the power of this intimidation fades out in time.

Blackmail is not so possible as in other or previous governments since most MPs and members of the government of SYRIZA had never had any previous involvement in politics and a history with bribery etc. to be blackmail. Even most Greeks don't know them. And by Russia and China being invested in Greece, I would guess that they will probably know how to counter-act such attempts if they feel and have decided to stand by Greece for their own interests.

As for the population grievances, Tsipras is enjoying a near 80% popularity rating at the time. Greeks haven't stood behind a single leader that united for a long time.

A potential terrorist network activation is indeed a serious threat. And indeed, most of police has been infiltrated by extreme nationalist elements and neo-nazi sympathizers of Golden Dawn. Fortunately the Greek army is another case. After the american-inspired military junta of 67' to 74' in Greece, the "democratization" of the 80s had military high officers being selected through student exams, the same one would take to enter medical university for example. Of course military usually attracts some more pathological personalities for sure, but the majority of Greek military officers are highly educated and smart people, most of them believing in and serving democratic values. For example, previous governments to SYRIZA tried twice in the austerity years to bring the army on the streets to police civilians during riots and the were rejected completely by the Greek generals. Also, most of the Greek army is maned by ordinary citizens who just do their obligatory for males service in Greek military. They are not "professionals" nor mercenaries that would follow just any order coming from a general above. I can verify this from my own military service too.

Also because of the fact that Greece has been arming itself to fight against a potential offensive war from Turkey, the military is unusually strong and modern for country of it's size. Greece is also the only NATO member country that uses lot's of Russian equipment and weapons, especially in the critical area of surface-to-air anti-aircraft systems that cannot be shut down by a magic button in Washington. The Greek air-defense runs mostly on advanced Russian systems. The "terrorist" or military intervention scenarios are usually executed in less able to defend themselves countries. Or more prone to divisions by sects, religious dogmas, tribes etc. Greek population is mainly uniform in education, religion and race. Of course, all of the above might still be tried in Greece, but they will have to be a little more "creative" than in cases of countries like Libya etc. Or so is my current estimation... We hope for the best, yet we still prepare for the worst.

Thank you
:)
 
Just read on Sott that Tsipras is scheduled to meet Putin on July 19th in St. Petersberg :

http://www.sott.net/article/297841-Russian-pivot-Greek-PM-schedules-Putin-meeting-ahead-of-emergency-summit

And then there was this on RT today :

http://rt.com/business/267367-greece-plan-national-currency/

I hope that alternative sources of financing are being considered by Greece in the short term, and forward payments on the Turkish Stream is a good possibility, similar to forward payments China made to Russia on the long term gas deals they signed. Loans from the BRICs bank could be the next step as mentoned in the article. It would be interesting to see now how the Troika responds, definitely a tense situation now....
 
‘If Greek financial assistance is needed, we will consider that’ – Russian DPM

More on the growing Greece-Russia partnership :

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Greece rejects ‘exceptionally generous’ counterproposals by creditors

Read this on RT today :


On the RT Greece debt crisis live updates webpage;


The 7:17 GMT update mentions that " Greek media reporting lenders told Tsipras last night as talks broke down: "from July 1st you will be on your own".

If i were Tsipras, my reponse would be " We shall see on 1st July, who really will be on their own"...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top Bottom