Greece: debt, creditors, austerity measures, Syriza, Varoufakis, Troika

[Alana]

Spyraal, I just read that Tsipras will give an interview on ERT at 10 pm tonight (Greek time). I'll try to watch it out of curiosity of what he has left to say the people.

 

[spyraal]

Spyraal, I just read that Tsipras will give an interview on ERT at 10 pm tonight (Greek time). I'll try to watch it out of curiosity of what he has left to say the people.

You do that, but arm yourself with patience :D while taking notice that he will use EXACTLY the same arguments like Samaras and the lot were using all these past 6 years. These are:

"I know it was a hard decision myself, yet any other would be more painful",
"Saying YES was the most difficult and yet the only responsible thing to do",
"I also suffer greatly and it will cost me personally too, but I had to disregard my own interests and popularity for saving the country",
"I just followed the wish of Greek people to stay in Eurozone and European family no matter what",
"Greece belongs to Europe and no-one can imagine Greece outside the Europe",
"I sacrificed myself with voting for more austerity but only to save Greece" and similar BS!

Then I will find a video of Samaras and send you the link for comparison! My blood pressure went up just by recalling all these...

 

[Joe]

Had Tsipras been a different person, a leader of steel resolve and true faith to the just cause of the Greek people, things could have been different.

Indeed. And unfortunately for this planet, those kinds of people come along very rarely.

 

[Joe]

Update: According to latest news, within the next 24 hours we shall witness the division of SYRIZA. At least 25 to 30 of SYRIZA's MPs up to now clearly stated that they will not sign the horrendous agreement. They also stated they don't considered resigning from their seats in the parliament. Instead of that they might form a new independent parliamentary group.

Still, there are more than enough MPs from other "willing" political parties of the old-guard for the agreement to pass through the parliament though. But SYRIZA is loosing it's cohesion every passing minute.

Divide and conquer. I don't doubt that this outcome was anticipated, or at least hoped for, by the bastard brokers in Brussels.

 

[luke wilson]

There has to be something missing from this picture. Absolutely no way he can be blindly signing up to his own personal demise without so much as kicking up a fuss. Where is the self preservation instinct... Mind boggling, absolutely mind boggling.

Has he been given a personal deal? Are we still playing some grander game? What's going on! This country has been so crashed, so humiliated its just beyond words... There is definitely something missing. Its so brazen its like unbelievable...

 

[Siberia]

Had Tsipras been a different person, a leader of steel resolve and true faith to the just cause of the Greek people, things could have been different.

Indeed. And unfortunately for this planet, those kinds of people come along very rarely.

That's true, unfortunately. Putin solved this same issue quite differently many years ago. In the 90s Russia also was strongly dependent on the IMF loans: we took them in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1998 and 1999. Since Putin came to power in 2000, we never took IMF loans anymore. We only managed to fully repay them all by 2005, but nevertheless we've been living without their new loans for 15 years now, including the crisis of 2008 (by that time we already had a solid inner reserve cushion).

And Putin also was young and inexperienced in big politics, when he came to power. Besides, the country was huge and totally ruined by 2000. We were having a war in Chechnya and devastated economy and social sphere. I was a student and remember us sitting in coats and gloves writing lectures with pencils because the ink was freezing (and that was happening in an oil & gas producing country!)...

So yeah, good leaders are very rare, it's true.

But at the same time, I still have faith in Greece and reserve some faith in the current Greek government too. The situation is serious and regretful, but hopefully it can still be gradually improved without further "shock therapy."

Perhaps Greece will manage to soon become a hub for gas piplines (Russian or other)? Or perhaps Tsipras will change his mind and prepare a Grexit or any other smart reform? Or perhaps the Ice Age will come and Frau Merkel will suddenly realize that Greece is her best friend after all? ;)

Who knows, the future is open as we know. When the Cs were asked about the future of Greece they replied with "it is to be hoped...", so I'm going to hope.

 

[Joe]

Had Tsipras been a different person, a leader of steel resolve and true faith to the just cause of the Greek people, things could have been different.

Indeed. And unfortunately for this planet, those kinds of people come along very rarely.

That's true, unfortunately. Putin solved this same issue quite differently many years ago. In the 90s Russia also was strongly dependent on the IMF loans: we took them in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1998 and 1999. Since Putin came to power in 2000, we never took IMF loans anymore. We only managed to fully repay them all by 2005, but nevertheless we've been living without their new loans for 15 years now, including the crisis of 2008 (by that time we already had a solid inner reserve cushion).

A good example of the time required for Greece to get back on its feet after a "Grexit". That could have been shortened perhaps with the help of Eurasian Investment Bank etc. but I think it was still a daunting proposition that would have taken someone with more cojones and insight than Tsipras.

 

[Joe]

There has to be something missing from this picture. Absolutely no way he can be blindly signing up to his own personal demise without so much as kicking up a fuss. Where is the self preservation instinct... Mind boggling, absolutely mind boggling.

Has he been given a personal deal? Are we still playing some grander game? What's going on! This country has been so crashed, so humiliated its just beyond words... There is definitely something missing. Its so brazen its like unbelievable...

Maybe we're too accustomed to pathological political types who see power as an end and who would sell their granny to keep it. Syriza was made up of different types I think, certainly they had a different ideology that was inimical to power for power's sake, which may have made it easier for him to just drop the case and go back to normal life. He tried, he failed, he packs it in.

 

[Joe]

As we all know, this show is far from over. But the idea that the IMF could be coming to the "rescue" is the last thing anyone might have imagined. So, is it possible? Or is something else going on here? The IMF is Washington dominated, so what's THEIR game? I mean, they're hardly the types to actually care about the welfare of Greek citizens...

IMF stuns Europe with call for massive Greek debt relief
http://www.sott.net/article/299032-IMF-stuns-Europe-with-call-for-massive-Greek-debt-relief

The IMF said the Europeans will either have to offer a “deep upfront haircut” or slash the debt burden by stretching maturities and presumably lowering interest costs.

“There would have to be a very dramatic extension with grace periods of, say, 30 years on the entire stock of European debt,” it said.

Debt forgiveness alone would not be enough. There would also have to be “new assistance”, and perhaps “explicit annual transfers to the Greek budget”.

 

[Mr. Premise]

I think the US's game is twofold. Greece is an important NATO member and if they drift out of the Euro zone and later the EU, and drift towards Russia and China, that would put their NATO membership at risk. Although no one is ever allowed to leave NATO, so one way or another that won't happen, but I think the U.S. would rather not resort to ugly methods such as a military coup in Greece (they've done this in the past).

I also think the U.S. would like to take Germany down a peg or two. They don't want Germany to get too strong.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

As we all know, this show is far from over. But the idea that the IMF could be coming to the "rescue" is the last thing anyone might have imagined. So, is it possible? Or is something else going on here? The IMF is Washington dominated, so what's THEIR game? I mean, they're hardly the types to actually care about the welfare of Greek citizens...

IMF stuns Europe with call for massive Greek debt relief
http://www.sott.net/article/299032-IMF-stuns-Europe-with-call-for-massive-Greek-debt-relief

The IMF said the Europeans will either have to offer a “deep upfront haircut” or slash the debt burden by stretching maturities and presumably lowering interest costs.

“There would have to be a very dramatic extension with grace periods of, say, 30 years on the entire stock of European debt,” it said.

Debt forgiveness alone would not be enough. There would also have to be “new assistance”, and perhaps “explicit annual transfers to the Greek budget”.

Dunno why, but there's this also, from Varoufakis's recent interview:

YV: Well there were people who were sympathetic at a personal level - so, you know, behind closed doors, on an informal basis, especially from the IMF. [HL: "From the highest levels?" YV: "From the highest levels, from the highest levels."] But then inside the Eurogroup, a few kind words and that's it, back behind the parapet of the official version.

 

[Niall]

Back during the Cyprus bailout theft of 2013, the IMF was also sympathetic to the victim. Hmmm...

Cypriot bank deposits tapped as part of €10bn eurozone bailout

FT, March 16, 2013

Without the losses imposed on Cypriot depositors, the bailout would have been close to €17bn, about the size of the entire Cypriot economy. The IMF insisted such a programme – which would have increased Cyprus’ sovereign debt to 145 per cent of economic output – would overburden Nicosia and hinted it would not participate in the rescue unless its size was reduced.

Christine Lagarde, the IMF managing director who participated in the marathon talks, said she would now recommend to the fund’s board that it contribute to the programme, though she said it was too early to say whether it would chip in one-third of the cost as it has in Ireland, Portugal and the first Greek bailout.

The IMF went along with it then, but now they seem to be putting their foot down.

 

[Possibility of Being]

I'm hearing that in his long interview, Tsipras said that the current deal is in many ways better/softer for Greece than the one before referendum and that despite his numerous trips and a lot of effort he failed to secure money needed for Greece to leave the Eurozone. Russia, China and other countries were offering financial help but not for Greece dumping the Euro, they want her to stay.

 

[mkrnhr]

I think the US's game is twofold. Greece is an important NATO member and if they drift out of the Euro zone and later the EU, and drift towards Russia and China, that would put their NATO membership at risk. Although no one is ever allowed to leave NATO, so one way or another that won't happen, but I think the U.S. would rather not resort to ugly methods such as a military coup in Greece (they've done this in the past).

I also think the U.S. would like to take Germany down a peg or two. They don't want Germany to get too strong.

I suspect that the US needs to weaken the EU economically before the take over through the Transpacific Partnership. The name of the game may be who sinks last and the EU is clearly losing the battle.

 

[Mr.Cyan]

Thank you Alana, thank you spyraal, thank you everybody, this subject is a big lesson, big big big! And lessons are hard, when they are real lessons, I think so. And lessons open eyes and give energy, after all. I am very sad for Greece, for Greeks, for anyone who believed that change was possible, that democracy was possible when we know that there is no democracy. Not at all! The only democracy is inside us, this little space where we work to be a little free. and that needs working, every second. That apart, I just wish that Greeks will be able to go to banks and take their money to eat or for anything urgent. In very difficult times people help each other, this is one good positive side of our disgraceful times.

Indeed loreta, this is definitely one big lesson, on how if you try and take on the Empire - and if you are not fully prepared, with a steely resolve - "defeat & destruction" is the likely outcome. That in itself is an important lesson, understanding "defeat" and internalising the mistakes and moving on, but this time the defeat has lead to Greece capitulating, and more debilitating shock therapy - there is only more turmoil/chaos for Greek people down the road - i feel deeply sad about this whole situation now and how its turned out :( ....sigh!

Up to a few days ago, i was quite impressed with Tsipras, but now i guess after the events of the last few days, and all the behind the scenes information coming out - the picture is slowly starting to emerge, that he was likely not very competent, he miscalculated, and was not "strong" enough to take on the Empire and lead Greece in these troubled times. He even had good allies (Russia/China/BRICS) which extended a hand to him - but again he didnt know how to capitalise on it and use it to Greece's advantage. The jury is still out though on whether all this was part of the plan; and or if there is a back-room deal where he benefits personally from this - but time again will tell, as the situation is far from over. Would be interesting to read an English translation of his speech last night to the Greek people...

thank you Alana and spyraal, and everybody for the all the posts and info, much appreciated as well