Greece: debt, creditors, austerity measures, Syriza, Varoufakis, Troika
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luke wilson
The Living Force
Another excellent article on SOTT
http://www.sott.net/article/299024-Greek-debt-and-German-hypocrisy
http://www.sott.net/article/299024-Greek-debt-and-German-hypocrisy
luke wilson said:
Yup. This and Joe's recent article were great summaries of what it's all about. I've been reading lots on this topic in the last couple of weeks. Actually over the last few months, since SYRIZA was elected, I've run into a lot of claims that they are fake, a Trojan horse, etc. But I'm still not decided one way or the other (there's likely to be infiltrated "agents" in the coalition, but hard to say who's who). I think Joe's take, and Pierre's addition I read this morning is quite close to getting at the crux of the matter.
Those articles and spyraal's characterization of Tsipras having no other experience than being groomed for professional politics seems to come closest to what everything's pointing to. But, as was said, this isn't over by a long shot. There are global geopolitical battles going on, and Greece is just a small part of the whole, as many others. And it's hard to predict what turn of events will change the picture/dynamics. And the Empire and its lackeys, especially now Germany and the EU bureaucrats are teetering on the verge of collapse, so anything can happen at any time (also the amount of shooting themselves in the foot and dropping their masks is bound to catch up all at once).
The thing for the Greek people to do is to try to unite and resist in strategic ways, while being aware of all the dangers they will face from the criminal cabal. A few more days can make some more things conspicuous. Also, the Greek people must be able to decide once and for all if it's worth staying in the Euro Zone and the EU. Besides how they've been treated (and there should have been no other expectation), they really don't have any cultural commonality with the rest of the EU. They aught to look to Eurasian integration and plan how to get there....
I've been kind of wondering if the US/IMF is trying to orchestrate a controlled burn of the European banking system. According to the FOFOA blog, the Euro was set up to ease the transition from the petrodollar to a gold based reserve currency system, and the Euro would extend the life of the dollar for a little while.
I think that was a little bit of wishful thinking on the part of European oligarchs. I don't completely agree with it, the Euro may have indeed been established to prolong the life of the dollar, and it was allowed to become a sort of quasi world reserve currency when exchange rates were over $1.50, but I think the actual purpose was to standardize the continent and open it up to American business.
Now that the Euro is a bit shaky, the US can introduce a little bit of instability in the form of "You guys have some bad debts. The banks are going to have to recognize these losses. You can't hide it QE Infinity any more." Of course QE Infinity will continue for American institutions, but hopefully it creates enough of a panic over the drama in Europe to herd the continent's well-heeled investors into USD assets. Some banks will be forced to take some losses when they were under the impression that they were all part of some gentlemen's club where no one ever loses. Germany was allowed to play at being a superpower while the US used it to set up the conditions that would allow it to suck a lot of wealth back to North America. Since Russia and China are pulling money out of the petrodollar system, the Europeans are required to step up to the plate and put more in to prop it up.
I think the ultimate hope for the PTB is to get everyone corralled into the "safe" US banking system and then they will cause it "suddenly and unexpectedly" implode in a contrived black swan event. That way, the US will have confiscated much of the world's wealth and American oligarchs will be in a position to make demands and maintain something of a privileged status after the reset and implementation of the NWO. They can say "See we have all of the stuff, we're the best and you need us," and then dictate whatever policy they like.
That's my opinion of the game that's being played with the IMF and Greece. The Shenzhen stock market fiasco is probably another ring in this same circus.
I think that was a little bit of wishful thinking on the part of European oligarchs. I don't completely agree with it, the Euro may have indeed been established to prolong the life of the dollar, and it was allowed to become a sort of quasi world reserve currency when exchange rates were over $1.50, but I think the actual purpose was to standardize the continent and open it up to American business.
Now that the Euro is a bit shaky, the US can introduce a little bit of instability in the form of "You guys have some bad debts. The banks are going to have to recognize these losses. You can't hide it QE Infinity any more." Of course QE Infinity will continue for American institutions, but hopefully it creates enough of a panic over the drama in Europe to herd the continent's well-heeled investors into USD assets. Some banks will be forced to take some losses when they were under the impression that they were all part of some gentlemen's club where no one ever loses. Germany was allowed to play at being a superpower while the US used it to set up the conditions that would allow it to suck a lot of wealth back to North America. Since Russia and China are pulling money out of the petrodollar system, the Europeans are required to step up to the plate and put more in to prop it up.
I think the ultimate hope for the PTB is to get everyone corralled into the "safe" US banking system and then they will cause it "suddenly and unexpectedly" implode in a contrived black swan event. That way, the US will have confiscated much of the world's wealth and American oligarchs will be in a position to make demands and maintain something of a privileged status after the reset and implementation of the NWO. They can say "See we have all of the stuff, we're the best and you need us," and then dictate whatever policy they like.
That's my opinion of the game that's being played with the IMF and Greece. The Shenzhen stock market fiasco is probably another ring in this same circus.
spyraal
Jedi Master
Perceval said:
Oh, I think too that this was a definite part of the plan. The harshness of the agreement that was inflicted on Tsirpas was certainly aiming to both humiliate him and provoke this reaction from SYRIZA members, causing a split to their so far unified front.
But today's news have it that 109(!) out of 201 members of SYRIZA's Central Commission (the party's most important and influential organ) are opposing the agreement. They claim it goes against the popular will and mainly against the ideals and principals of a radical Leftist party SYRIZA is supposed to be.
This may sound like a division was successful, and of course it is in a way. Yet as SYRIZA, even from a year ago, was appearing to have a real potential for becoming government, a lot of so-called "leftists" or "socialists" from the failed parties of PASOK and DIMAR ("Democratic Left" in Greek), parties that failed due to their participation in austerity coalition governments during the past years and thus lost most their popular support, migrated to SYRIZA as rats who abandoned their own sinking ships. So Tsipras and SYRIZA (and they received a lot of criticism for that) had accepted all these people inside their ranks. Most of these people represent the school of "EU realists", meaning they support EU and the Euro currency as the only way for Greece. Their presence and influence have "corrupted" SYRIZA's radical ideology from the inside, as quite a few of them were given government positions and even ministries. No wonder Varoufakis could not find the needed support to prepare for a Grexit with all these people having a vote inside the Government Council. Remember here it was the Government Council that voted against Varoufakis' "Plan B" according to what he said.
So, all things considered, and although this may indeed be a "split" in SYRIZA's ranks, this can also be an opportunity for removing all these elements whose presence at the current moment blunts the needed radical edge from SYRIZA. And although these "infiltrators", the leftovers from other pro-austerity failed parties, together with these still faithful to Tsipras or so-called "presidential" supporters still represent a significant percentage of SYRIZA's electoral power, the other more radical part of SYRIZA that actually wants a Grexit (and which some estimate that it might soon become even a separate new party) can attract and absorb a major part of population that wants a solid and clear response to this agreement: A clear rejection and a return a Greek national currency through a GREXIT.
So, what is now SYRIZA might loose a great part of it's members and support as result of this agreement, but it seems that this can also lead to the formation of a new and determined political party with a clear anti-EU Grexit agenda that could very well gather more popular support than the "old" SYRIZA. Varoufakis and Zoe Kostantopoulou (the remarkable brave woman that is now President of the Parliament) are said to be some of the leading figures that would support and lead such an initiative for a new truly radical party.
Some members of SYRIZA's Central Commission have even called for a removal of Tsipras from the leadership of the party, and they seem to have -by a small margin- even the needed majority to do that (109 out of 201). One way or the other, SYRIZA in it's current state of division cannot hold and exercise power for much longer. Soon, from anytime the next coming days (depending on inner party developments) or the latest on the coming September, Tsipras will have to go to general elections. He cannot do otherwise. A government needs parliament majority to effectively pass new legislation. And SYRIZA was elected back in January with only 149 MPs (on a total of 300). That is why it is currently in coalition with the right wing party of ANEL ("Independent Greeks") that supported Tsipras up to now with it's own force of 15 MPs. But even this coalition party of ANEL might not vote for this new agreement, as they claim so far.
As a conclusion, things are very difficult for Tsipras. And although the attempted division of SYRIZA has been quite successful, it might also lead to the birth and formation of a new and this time truly radical political formation that has a real potential to enjoy more popular support than Tsipras and SYRIZA ever had, especially after the harsh and humiliating treatment of Greece Tsipras approved. And this is something I doubt the PTB were planning or counting for. Maybe this realization has something to do with the IMF's recent incredible statements about the need to provide a major relief to Greece as it concerns the payments of it's national debt. They may want to de-polarize the current situation that only leads to Tsipras' humiliation and decline, and by extend to the "side-effect" of the the creation of this new and more radical center of gravity in Greek politics I mentioned above...
Mr. Premise
The Living Force
I don't know, Spyraal, I don't think that the PTB will ever allow a truly radical left party to take over in a European country (radical right is another thing). Just read about Operation Gladio and what they did in Italy in the postwar period to prevent a government with the Communists involved. And Operation Gladio had a big "stay behind" contingent in Greece as well (the LOK) which I'm sure is well ensconced in the military and security sectors.
But who knows, things are fluid.
But who knows, things are fluid.
spyraal
Jedi Master
Mr. Premise said:
Oh, I totally agree Mr. Premise. What I described in my above post is just how things are shaping up in Greek politics these past two days. There is no doubt that the reaction of the PTB to the potential formation of an even more radical party in the place of the wounded and dissolving SYRIZA, will for sure be harsher than ever. No doubt what-so-ever.
But on the other hand a newly-formed truly radical and pro-Grexit party, this time with clear intend and priorities, could also allow Putin and other powers to stand more firmly by Greece, something that proved to be problematic with Tsipras who never wanted to really choose side and jump from the fence, foolishly wanting the best of both worlds only to receive the worst...
luke wilson
The Living Force
Would a Grexit even be possible when the Greek people don't even own anything of any value in their country? If the necessary legal papers are signed transferring ownership of all this public institutions to private foreign controlled institutions, then they will be within their rights to protect their property... If everything happens now as the Prime Minister agreed with the brokers in Brussels, Greece will no longer be the property of Greek people.
Plus will a pro left government even rise to power and if they did, can they even challenge the paradigm once all the papers are signed?
They sure as hell can't achieve anything with violence as the owners have a vast private army plus they probably own the Greek police and military.
Its looking like Greece is signing up to Legal slavery and colonialism.
Plus will a pro left government even rise to power and if they did, can they even challenge the paradigm once all the papers are signed?
They sure as hell can't achieve anything with violence as the owners have a vast private army plus they probably own the Greek police and military.
Its looking like Greece is signing up to Legal slavery and colonialism.
luke wilson said:
The thing is, it's been this way for many years. It's just more obvious/overt now.
RT is reporting disturbances in Greece at the moment. Reports of firebombs being thrown at riot police.
Not sure if it's genuine anger or deliberate provocation/propaganda.
casper
The Living Force
Yes, look at Syntagma Square in Athens thrown Molotov cocktails at the police responded with tear gas.RedFox said:
Police returned to the citizens - not good!
Riot police in advance to prepare, they knew that there would be conflict
Police disperse protesters and occupied strategic positions in Syntagma Square, but they were back together and headed back to the square. The whole area fly over helicopters. Conflicts have moved from Syntagma Square to the park Zapeion, where he reportedly ablaze a van journalistic team.
angelburst29
The Living Force
Did they really believe - the Greeks would just sit back - and watch this all play out - behind closed doors?
Athens ablaze: Angry Greeks throw petrol bombs at riot police as MPs debate new EU bailout (video & photo's)
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/591419/Greece-crisis-protests-MPs-debate-EU-bailout
Hooded protestors threw petrol bombs at helmet-clad riot police as the Greek people's seething anger against the European Union (EU) reached boiling point.
Police responded by hurling tear gas canisters at the huge mob, who have gathered outside the country's parliament in an enormous protest against its international creditors.
Inside, MPs have been locked in the commons chamber since midday, debating the punitive conditions of an EU bailout deal.
Despite the enormous political pressures it is thought premier Alexis Tsipras' left-wing government will manage to cling on and win the vote, even if it destroys itself in the process.
Deputy finance minister Nadia Valavani became the latest high-profile member of the ruling Syriza party to resign today, saying she could not support the government's stance.
She told reporters: "I'm not going to vote for this agreement and this meant I cannot stay in the Government."
Scroll down for video.
In the chamber, one Greek MP from far right party Golden Dawn showed his disgust by ripping up the memorandum on the bailout deal and throwing it on the floor.
The entire country ground to a halt today as tens of thousands of public sector workers took to the streets in an enormous protest against the harsh austerity measures imposed by Greece's international creditors.
Increasingly people's anger is turning on the EU, which has been heavily criticised after eurozone leaders stitched together a last-minute bailout package for Greece over the weekend.
Just before the clashes, protesters marched waving banners reading "Cancel the bailout!" and "No to the policies of the EU, the ECB and the IMF."
Germany's media has been equally savage in its criticism of the deal, even comparing it to the Treaty of Versailles which was forced on the country by allied powers at the end of World War One.
Athens ablaze: Angry Greeks throw petrol bombs at riot police as MPs debate new EU bailout (video & photo's)
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/591419/Greece-crisis-protests-MPs-debate-EU-bailout
Hooded protestors threw petrol bombs at helmet-clad riot police as the Greek people's seething anger against the European Union (EU) reached boiling point.
Police responded by hurling tear gas canisters at the huge mob, who have gathered outside the country's parliament in an enormous protest against its international creditors.
Inside, MPs have been locked in the commons chamber since midday, debating the punitive conditions of an EU bailout deal.
Despite the enormous political pressures it is thought premier Alexis Tsipras' left-wing government will manage to cling on and win the vote, even if it destroys itself in the process.
Deputy finance minister Nadia Valavani became the latest high-profile member of the ruling Syriza party to resign today, saying she could not support the government's stance.
She told reporters: "I'm not going to vote for this agreement and this meant I cannot stay in the Government."
Scroll down for video.
In the chamber, one Greek MP from far right party Golden Dawn showed his disgust by ripping up the memorandum on the bailout deal and throwing it on the floor.
The entire country ground to a halt today as tens of thousands of public sector workers took to the streets in an enormous protest against the harsh austerity measures imposed by Greece's international creditors.
Increasingly people's anger is turning on the EU, which has been heavily criticised after eurozone leaders stitched together a last-minute bailout package for Greece over the weekend.
Just before the clashes, protesters marched waving banners reading "Cancel the bailout!" and "No to the policies of the EU, the ECB and the IMF."
Germany's media has been equally savage in its criticism of the deal, even comparing it to the Treaty of Versailles which was forced on the country by allied powers at the end of World War One.
luke wilson said:
My thoughts too luke wilson - just read on RT, the bailout conditions were approved by the Greek parliament - hence when the deal signed, i dont think any new radical left, pro Grexit party will be able to turn it around in the future; especially with the "control" of the police and military not in their hands, just my view fwiw
Latest updates from RT:
Greek MPs approve reforms for new EU bailout
http://rt.com/news/273952-greece-vote-euro-bailout/
About the violence during the protests, i think there were agent provocatuers working amongst genuine protesters angry with the current situation. As discussed previously in the thread, the situation in Greece is certainly tense with deep divisions amongst the people, and the Empire sadly, will definitely try and sow more divisions and incite violence. Then it will be easier for them break up the current government and install their puppets during in a new election
From the link aboveMr.Cyan said:
I wonder how this many MP's switched in a day. Did lot of money flow in these politicians bank accounts?. It depends on the corruption level in Greek politics.
Probably it is a deliberate act to apply pressure on politicians who are opposing it and public who fear of situation going out of control.
Mr. Premise said:
Another thing to is that I guess we're so used to the US being the bad cop and Germany/EU being the "good" cop that a reversal of roles can cause a double take. Maybe it's the United States' little reminder to the little people in the EU why they need America... to keep their politicians in check!!
