Gurdjieff's Alarm Clocks

This is timely for me because I had a lapse into dissociation last weekend too. Usually I think that I am "destroying myself", and I can feel it in my chest, but I need a better alarm clock. "Committing suicide" or "mental illness" sound good.

I know what AI is talking about. Sometimes I forget that I just did something and do it again! And not doing small things when I see them leaves me always needing to do things later.

I find that I usually read or watch how to do things, rather than actually doing them. "Is this what I want to do?"
 
Thank you for your definition of these alarm clocks!

A lot of good could come from me integrating these same "wake up" methods into my life. I'm going to do my best and see what comes of it all.

Thank you again.
 
There suffering is remarkably similar to your suffering, eg, parents treating them bad, kids bullying them etc. The rest, for example a child living in palestine, the occupation is all they know and thus as a result it is no longer a shock to them, the way it is to you! They adapt, they live. This is one thing the media does and people dont acknowledge, the media makes it appear worse than it actually is - it messes around with perceptions. It makes you feel like, 'OMG, WHAT A SORRY STATE OF AFFAIRS.' It might be, but that is what they know so for them that is that.

I can't really agree on this. It's different kind of suffering when your family members are murdered for fun or when your legs all blown away by projectile, this things you CAN'T forgot and you never forgot that, you can put that aside but it stays with you. But most people who experience this are led by their rage to violence and revenge after that which is more emotional suffering. I agree they adapt but they never don't forget.

And from my experience i know that people who are more under the stress are closer to their true self because those situations reacquire you to be, and for example living your life in fear of being blown away for fun every day or if you'll survive another day without food makes you really conscious and about things and to be grateful for each penny you got.

That makes them more conscious about the world they live in, more conscious then me in any case because one thing is to understand and different thing is to know and experience, but that's obviously the purpose of life, to live and to experience because only experience can change things in real way, and change their being in that way because it stays with them.

And I remember that Mouravieff or G. wrote that people who are in life threatening situations are more close to their real self and have greater will because of that, they are "forced" to act. That's the only way when you look to shock people up when people don't have knowledge or aren't interested in it. But this is different kind of consciousness then when doing work, it's more external then eternal., and those two are interconnected.

I also found few exercises which I had written down few years ago from one book that one guy from India wrote, but they are useful. These exercises are for astral projection but the basis for it is to be conscious in everyday life so you can be conscious in dream, and I remember when i did them i had lucid dreams, and they can be used for work. Basic exercises are to be conscious when you walk through door and when you sit on chair, bed, you say: "This is a dream". But it all goes gradually, you put one by one exercise every seven days. Before sleep you do mental affirmations to stay conscious, but you have to have strong intent, and you have to do mental affirmations when you close your eyes: "I'am awake, I'am conscious, this is a dream, etc... which is tricky because you can easily turn it to become automatically. So he advises changing your sayings(alarms). Then one thing i did what author did was to put adhesive tapes on my door in a room with sayings on them like: "This is a dream", which also have to be changed with time. This was funny in a way because family members started to ask me what is that.

Then another exercise is to be conscious about letters you pronounce, write, read, say in mental way and when you talk with others you are conscious about that letters in their words, first letter was d for dream, but with time other letters are added, like a, b, c, etc.... At first you do it slow, you need more time to read that way, write and you are talking slower. Then you can be conscious when you say some word like I, or some other word. Then you can drop conjunction and from your words. Then one "exercise" was to put your alarm clock to alarm(I mean real alarm clock) you every one hour and when it rings you say: "I'am a conscious", and you have to concentrate to see difference between dream state and when you are "awake". when you eat you concentrate on smell, taste, and you eat consciously, being aware where your thong is, are you biting or not.

When you see clock, window, your hands, when you touch your left or right hand, when you touch pencil, when someone calls you, when you see something pretty or repulsive, before you start talking, you become conscious.Then when in your mind the dialog begins you become conscious about it and only be witness of it, he advises to do 2X at least 10 minutes of meditation every day with observing your thoughts. then he advises relaxation. He also mentions to go through your day before sleep, what you did that day, and also to go from this moment few minutes backwards in time to remember what your thoughts were, and if they were, example: monkey, then it would go yeknom (he says that you can by that way go to past lives but I'am not sure about it), to do everything with full self,with 100 per cent.

He is also against sex because it wastes energy that is needed for work. then he says to control body by not doing some move, like crossing legs, don't laugh, don't touch your hair, write with left hand if you write with right, then after that change your writing, etc.., with time you do something harder.

Then for mind you can try to not think about some person or thing for a week. Then he advises breathing exercises and for calming the body to put pen on your hand and keep it still for 5-10 minutes, then do it with another hand.
He gives advice to talk only when needed because it disturbs breathing that calms mind, and to be aware of sensations and to do visualization and concentration exercises, etc.... And the important thing is to have fun with it, to do it for the sake of working, not for results, but you also need much energy for it.
 
Referring to myself as "it" was something that I used to do but forgot. Thanks for mentioning it again, T.C.

Another alarm clock that I've been using lately is something like, "At every moment you have a choice" to help me get up and do rather than sit and watch while time passes me by. Also, "doing what It does not like" is something I've added to my arsenal.
 
Uhmm,

dannybananny said:
I can't really agree on this. It's different kind of suffering when your family members are murdered for fun or when your legs all blown away by projectile, this things you CAN'T forgot and you never forgot that, you can put that aside but it stays with you. But most people who experience this are led by their rage to violence and revenge after that which is more emotional suffering. I agree they adapt but they never don't forget.

Well, since this is a sensitive topic, let us only exchange views and wherever we clash, we agree to disagree.

I agree partly with what you say.

I am basing my views from experience, not mental masturbation as has been described to me before. From my point of view, these people, got what they got in the sense that, that is there environment, and they live and function normally but in a different context. I mean, that is what I saw, so maybe I didnt see the whole thing, despite being part of it for a good number of years. Also i'll have to disagree with you about such people being led by rage to violence as a rule, I think it is more the exception. If anything I think it comes down to the type of person.

However, when it comes to war and in particular child soldiers I have heard stories about how child soldiers are broken down by drugs, made to kill there own relatives etc inorder to take away there humanity so they become killing machines, uhmm, in these conditions I wholly agree that rage and violence can get a grip of someone and they completely lose all value of life and self-restraint... Also I think culture plays a huge role, so depending where you come from, people are likely to react in different ways fitting there cultural context.

dannybananny said:
And from my experience i know that people who are more under the stress are closer to their true self because those situations reacquire you to be, and for example living your life in fear of being blown away for fun every day or if you'll survive another day without food makes you really conscious and about things and to be grateful for each penny you got.

Uhmm, I dont know in what context you mean by stress. If you mean stress in the normal way as we understand it, then stress hinders ones ability to see things clearly, leads one into depression so in that sense I would have to disagree. But if you mean stress as in a sort of shock that makes one realise the value of things, then I would have to agree. I wouldnt say grateful aswell, the impression I get from what I have experienced is that, people just know how to make the most of what they have. If that is equivalent to being grateful of what you have, then I would agree.

dannybananny said:
That makes them more conscious about the world they live in, more conscious then me in any case because one thing is to understand and different thing is to know and experience, but that's obviously the purpose of life, to live and to experience because only experience can change things in real way, and change their being in that way because it stays with them.

Can I ask a question, who is 'them'? What type of people are we talking about here. I am predominantly talking about people who come from developing countries and who due to this fact, are on the wrong end of globalisation.

Anyways, instead of endless debate, I would say, experience talks and even that different people get different things from the same very experience so in this case, I propose to agree to disagree as stated earlier.
 
One absurd thing that I always put myself through is this "middle ground" where I notice that thing I need to do as I am walking away from that thing, decide to turn back, turn back again, and then yell at myself to turn back around and just do the blasted thing. What a waste of energy! This is the absolute best time to remember to take a little snapshot of my actions. Nothing like a little "devil on the shoulder" slapstick played out Chaplin style to keep a sense of humor about those stubborn mechanical "I's."

The "snapshot" tool, in my experience, really extend the life of any alarms that are in place because it helps pinpoint when one does the actual slipping. Alarm wakes you up, and a review of the photo album points you toward the things that most often/easily trigger dissociations. But, like all of these things, totally useless if forgotten and so easy to forget! :headbash:
 
Jerry said:
Luke,

Please describe the difference between a research forum and an internet chat room in as few words as possible.

Research as I understand it is trying to find out the objective basis of something - that can mean by either doing an experiment and collecting data like in a lab and testing out a hypothesis or theory etc, or collecting points of view of different people eg by doing surveys, questionnares, polls etc to see what the mean is, trying to work out other statistical properties etc. A chat room is where people go to socialise.

If I am to be honest, I dont think anything I say will make any difference because no matter what I type it appears I always say the wrong thing. I don't know why this is. Maybe karma, maybe I did something wrong somewhere and the universe is responding back.

Now why pick on my post instead of danny's? Why not both - I based my response on the structure of his response, by stating my experience with the matter at hand also? As you can see he said what he experienced

danny said:
And from my experience i know that people who are more under the stress are closer to their true self because those situations reacquire you to be, and for example living your life in fear of being blown away for fun every day or if you'll survive another day without food makes you really conscious and about things and to be grateful for each penny you got.

plus mentioned some other things I know arent exactly right per other threads. As per this thread http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=8116.0

danny said:
and I remember when i did them i had lucid dreams, and they can be used for work.

Despite all this, it appears, you only have eyes for me. Sometimes I suppose it is easy to knock someone, when they are already down, if you don't understand them or when everyone else is busy doing it aswell, for whatever reasons.

Well, there is really nothing I can do about that..
 
luke wilson said:
Jerry said:
Luke,

Something other than love of truth motivates your posts.

Can I ask what you think this other thing is?

I get the impression you just like to hear yourself speak.

I don't know that is true though. I do know that the moderators have pointed out a few things to you lately. This means that if you continue in the same vein it will be pointed out to you by those who notice. You seem to lack any kind of self-awareness about your posting habits such as, for example, the tone your posts conveys to others. You have been given gentle suggestions for months. Once the moderators and other members view a behavior as beginning to effect the forum negatively you can expect you will have these behaviors pointed out to you whenever they are noticed.

luke wilson said:
Despite all this, it appears, you only have eyes for me. Sometimes I suppose it is easy to knock someone, when they are already down, if you don't understand them or when everyone else is busy doing it aswell, for whatever reasons.

Well, there is really nothing I can do about that..

This is not the first time that when challenged you imagine sinister motives on the part of others. It seems you either agree with these observations of others and then go about your merry way or you get paranoid.

This is a moment for you. These observations that have been mentioned to you lately are an opportunity. You can rise to the occasion and look at yourself more deeply, learn how to "empty" the cup so to speak, or you can stay oblivious.
 
Patience said:
I get the impression you just like to hear yourself speak.

How so? Because my posts are long? If it is worth anything, for the most part it is because that is just who I am, like in real life you have people who talk alot, others who don't etc. It doesnt mean that the one who uses the most amount of words to get an idea across likes the sound of there own voice.

Anyways, I am sure some of what you say is true, simply because there is an element of the predator in all of us.

Patience said:
This is not the first time that when challenged you imagine sinister motives on the part of others.

I did not imply it here. I do not think jerry is out to get me. Whatever is going on is just happening by itself and I am not blaming any specific person...

Patience said:
Once the moderators and other members view a behavior as beginning to effect the forum negatively you can expect you will have these behaviors pointed out to you whenever they are noticed.

I agree and as a result I minimise my participation level. What you are asking is for me to change a huge part of myself in a radical way and that is imposible atleast in the short-term. I cannot just metamorphosise.. I think it just happens that, there is just a huge mis-understanding between me and alot of people. Maybe just put it down to being different and leave it at that. However, it is not my wish to quit nor will I quit. If it means defeating the predator is to be quiet as jerry suggested here,

jerry said:
Luke, there’s a limit you know.

Did you ever have a conversation at a party and some noisy dude keeps interrupting because he just had to say something, anything?

Then I will be quiet. I will simply utilise the forum to read and mother nature will have to take the lead. There is this saying my primary school teacher used to say, it is a swahili saying and translates to, whoever isnt taught by there mother, will be taught by the world. I suppose I shall be falling into the latter category.

Jerry said:
luke wilson said:
Jerry said:
Luke,

Something other than love of truth motivates your posts.

Can I ask what you think this other thing is?

Need.

I agree. I suppose I have been intrigued by why I attract so much attention. I dont get it, I think it is just me. Of late alot of things I touch just results in a whirlwind. Maybe lack of self-awareness as said by Patience.

When I gain that level of self-awareness, I will attempt to communicate but until then, good luck with your journeys and if it is worth anything, I appreciate whatever it is we have shared. Moving to lurker mode.
 
Luke,

One of the things that I have come to understand is that it is not just important to know how and when to give but to also know how to receive. When we choose to involve ourselves in this work, it is important to take note of the value or importance in the gift and try to utilize it. This involves coming to the realization that others have put time, energy and patience into posting information that is relevant to your situation. To do this is to honor the gift received. Anything less is akin to throwing gold into the garbage.

Can you appreciate how it may make others feel if they have provided information that you choose not to take again and again with the excuses that you either don't know or can't do it for one reason or another? Perhaps this can make others begin to feel that they shouldn't try to help. It seems that you view yourself with such little value that you think you are a lost cause. You feel this way about yourself and seem to insist that others feel this way as well.

This mode of thinking manifests itself in many, if not all aspects of your life. It seems that you are not tired enough of living this way and therefore I can only conclude that part of you chooses this method because you do not want to do what's necessary to change it. This could be because part of you unconsciously enjoys your suffering. There's something that you get from it that you don't realize - something that you feed off. Perhaps attention? Perhaps the "comfort" and fear that comes with not having to really try?

While it may not be obvious to you as you don't consciously enjoy the attention you're currently receiving, you set up your life in such a way that many situations that come up for you causes you to receive "negative" attention.

If you would have taken the advice given several times to get on the diet and practice ee, you would have probably experienced some changes by now. So what you're really doing is getting in the way of your own progress. You're not the only person who has had difficulty getting and staying on the diet. You're not the only person who has had trouble sticking with ee yet you act as if there is something so wrong with you that you can't accomplish these things. This is what you secretly think of yourself.

Your situation is not so unique from others and you can experience profound changes but first need to get control of yourself and stop listening to the predator that tells you otherwise.

By thinking that there is something so damaged about yourself is really the same as saying "I'm special" and "I am so different and uniquely wounded that no one can help me.". While others can give advice, only you can make the changes important to improving your life.

Regarding your posts. Perhaps it would help you to reread some of your posts. Particularly the ones after you received a mirror. To me, some of them have a slightly different flavor. They are more concise as opposed to the ones posted just before receiving a mirror. This lets me know that you can do this if you set your mind to it.

Only you can decide to take up the process of becoming the adult that was hampered by narcissistic wounding. Make a decision that is in your best interests. You get to decide now what the possibilities are and what kind of man you want to be.

Added: Just read your last post. To lurk isn't the answer. It's two side of the same coin. Lurking is safe for you because you feel hurt and want to hide. What will help is practice. That's the only way to get around this. Just practice. Maybe give yourself a limit of 2 or 3 paragraphs (a few sentences each) for each post. I think this will give you some boundaries to start off with. Try it for a month. What do you think? :)
 
T.C. said:
So after last night, I had to come up with a new alarm clock, because I had more or less CHOSEN to shut my eyes, shut out reality and have a nice snooze.

My new one is the idea that I have incarnated into a war zone. Our planet is a war-zone. There is a battle going on, threats from all sides. I FEEL this, too. This is true for me. This is shocking. So I'm bearing this in mind now. That I wouldn't have intentionally entered a war-zone without a damn good reason. But now I'm here, I'm not fighting, I'm watching movies! So that has woken me up again and I'm using it until I start sleeping through it, at which point, I'll hopefully be able to come up with another.

So I just wanted to share all this, to give others a practical interpretation of what Gurdjieff was talking about. If you're struggling to find a way to look into the light or motivate yourself into action, come up with something about yourself or your situation which is absolutely shocking, but absolutely true. You can use it to wake yourself up a bit and get back to the front-line.

Hi TC,

Thanks for sharing your understanding of Gurdjieff's alarm clocks in practical terms. I remember reading that bit and not understanding what he was talking about.

Approaching Infinity said:
Then there's "noticing". We can only choose to do something if we NOTICE that something needs doing. Take the laundry, again. I might forget about the laundry because my attention was directed towards something else for the whole day after. My tiny aim wasn't strong enough for me to remember, and I didn't notice any of the signs around me that could've caused me to remember. Of course, this is a result mainly of "the disease of tomorrow". I noticed once, decided to put it off until "later", and lost the opportunity. Sometimes another one is offered, and I remember, and take it. Other times, I'm not so lucky. So lately I've been trying my best to do whatever I notice, that very moment. If I notice a dish that needs washing, I wash it; a typo that needs correcting, I correct it; a piece of garbage that is in the middle of the floor, I pick it up; etc. These are all "small" things, but as far as I can tell, they're a great exercise. I end up getting much more done than I usually would in the same amount of time, and it gives me a good feeling. It's really amazing what a view just paying attention can give of oneself: my laziness, forgetfulness, sleep-walking, etc. But then, that "look" itself can then serve as a reminder to get cracking!

This is a powerful approach, OSIT. In my recent experience, the more I notice outside myself and take action, the more I am beginning to notice inside, and vice versa.

luke wilson said:
Patience said:
I get the impression you just like to hear yourself speak.

How so? Because my posts are long? If it is worth anything, for the most part it is because that is just who I am, like in real life you have people who talk alot, others who don't etc. It doesnt mean that the one who uses the most amount of words to get an idea across likes the sound of there own voice.


T.C. said:
Gurdjieff said:
"There is also the possibility of being awakened by mechanical means. A man may be awakened by an alarm clock. But the trouble is that a man gets accustomed to the alarm clock far too quickly, he ceases to hear it. Many alarm clocks are necessary and always new ones. Otherwise a man must surround himself with alarm clocks which will prevent him sleeping. But here again there are certain difficulties. Alarm clocks must be wound up; in order to wind them up one must remember about them; in order to remember one must wake up often. But what is still worse, a man gets used to all alarm clocks and after a certain time he only sleeps the better for them. Therefore alarm clocks must be constantly changed, new ones must be continually invented. In the course of time this may help a man to awaken. But there is very little chance of a man doing all the work of winding up, inventing, and changing clocks all by himself, without outside help. It is much more likely that he will begin this work and that it will afterwards pass into sleep, and in sleep he will dream of inventing alarm clocks, of winding them up and changing them, and simply sleep all the sounder for it.

"Therefore, in order to awaken, a combination of efforts is needed. It is necessary that somebody should wake "the man" up; it is necessary that somebody should look after the man who wakes him; it is necessary to have alarm clocks and it is also necessary continually to invent new alarm clocks.

Luke, many people here are shaking you to wake you up, and people are shaking them, and they are trying to find ways to shake themselves. As TC says, we are living in a war zone, and the battle is being fought through us.

FWIW, this is the approach I would take:

Jerry says you are motivated by need. He might be right, or maybe not. Why are you denying it so strongly? Try taking his word for it, if you can, instead of arguing. He is holding up a mirror and you are pushing it away. Read back through your posts in this thread and try to see why he said that. Pay attention to how you are holding your body and the feelings that come up as you read through the thread. Why do you need to talk so much? Why is it so painful for you to see?

Anart has asked you many times to focus on brevity. Try writing your posts with as few words as possible. Make it into a game. Cut your next post down to 25 words. Cut the one after that down to 20 words. Why is this so difficult for you? I don't want an answer to this question, try to answer it for yourself.

I am echoing some of what truth seeker just posted, she was a little faster on the draw than me :)
 

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