Hating My Mother and Merry Christmas - Two of my *I*s

[Menna]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

I am certain she has created alot more pain and suffering than I could have, or any Mother should.

There is a difference between Idealistic thinking and realistic thinking. I agree that she has created more pain then you could or will because you are aware of narcissism and have the being to want to not be like that. "Or any mother should" part of the quote is I believe to be idealistic. The realistic view point from my current level is that out of 10 million children raised by separate mothers 3 million of those children will experience unnecessary pain and programming from their mother so yea you are right that no mother should but being right may not help you here. I think its great you recognize this and want to stop hating.

 

[mada85]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

Quote SAO: ... What has helped me personally is that I know she does love and care about me, but she is also a broken human being and so there is too much internal interference in her ability to have a healthy relationship with me, or anyone for that matter. So I don't hate her, I just hate her outer shell, and unfortunately she is too identified and set in her ways to ever change that, and I have accepted that.

And that's the crux of it.

There seems to be a strong service-to-self undercurrent to this thread. I mean, I know we need to protect, defend, and improve ourselves. But certain people are bandying the term 'narcissist' about and using it to judge their mothers with. I wouldn't mind hearing the mothers' sides of things.

To me it sounds like teenage angst - don't get me wrong, I had teenage angst at the age of thirty and I was still railing at my Mum. But we need to get over it, and come to the same sort of awareness as SAO mentions above "...she is also a broken human being and so there is too much internal interference in her ability to have a healthy relationship with me, or anyone for that matter."

Going by your posts I get the impression you are giving your mother a lot of pain, Lilyalic. How about concentrating on that as well as your own pain? In terms of equalising the playing field I mean. Narcissism comes in many shades and can creep up on us unawares.

That suggestion of 'fostering' your animals out grated against me. Sometimes I wonder how some people can call themselves animal lovers. I regard myself as one, and the idea of evicting my animals from the home they know and love, and dumping them in some strange place is horrendous. If a human did that to his/her kin he/she would be called psychopathic. Animals are at our mercy in just the same way we are at the mercy of the 4D predator. In fact more so - we have the chance to survive through the acquisition of knowledge.

If you read the previous posts by lilyalic, it's pretty obvious that her mother has some serious issues (beating her up etc). What you're doing here IMO is some sort of black and white "über-moralism" where you're basically blaming the victim for not having enough understanding for the abuser.

@lilyac: I hope you've had the chance to listen to the SOTT radio episode with the author of "Fear of the Abyss" Dr. Aleta Edwards. Amongst other valuable things, she explains how important it is to set the boundaries with narcissistic parents, and she also gives some examples of how to do this.

Link: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sottnet/2013/10/20/dr-aleta-edwards-interview-fear-of-the-abyss

Strawman, this post of yours comes across as really quite abrasive. Aragorn's assessment is accurate, in my opinion. The whole post reads like an attack on lilyalic based on your own self-importance and belief in yourself as someone superior.

When I read your post I really felt for lilyalic. She deserves much better than this.

I wouldn't mind hearing the mothers' sides of things.

And if you did hear the mothers' side of things, would you know if said mothers' were narcissistic? Such persons are extremely good liars. Perhaps you should read Simon's book.

But we need to get over it, and come to the same sort of awareness as SAO mentions above "...she is also a broken human being and so there is too much internal interference in her ability to have a healthy relationship with me, or anyone for that matter."

Well, maybe lilyalic's mother is not a 'broken human being'. Maybe she's just a narcissist and cannot be fixed. Narcissists do not believe there is anything wrong with themselves.

Going by your posts I get the impression you are giving your mother a lot of pain, Lilyalic.

Here you are confusing predatory narcissistic behaviour with behaviour driven by genuine pain. We can see by lilyalic's latest post just how wrong this attitude is. This was in fact pretty clear from her earlier posts.

But certain non-neutral forum members, those that relate subjectively to Lilyalic's issue, or those who seemed to want to post their own stream-of-consciousness solutions to her issue, jumped on the 'narcissist mother' bandwagon. The focus was then put on her mother as the big bad bogeyman.

I'm wondering, Strawman, if you have some issues with your mother or early caregivers which have caused you to shut down your emotional centre. It seems that this thread has triggered certain programs in you, and you are reacting by attacking lilyalic (blaming the victim). Is this a defensive reaction on your part? Diverting attention from your own pain by focusing on what you perceive as lilyalic's failings? That in fact is a very service to self behaviour.

I think it would be worth your while to really examine your childhood programs. Perhaps to do some recapitulation of childhood experiences.

But certain non-neutral forum members, those that relate subjectively to Lilyalic's issue

This is projection.

To me it sounds like teenage angst

To me, it doesn't sound like anything of the sort. Rather I see lilyalic writing with a certain maturity, and attempting to view her relationship with her mother more objectively.

I believed that that slide needed to be halted.

The perception of a 'slide' was purely subjective on your part. I do not see people jumping on the 'let's all bash lilyalic's mother bandwagon'. Rather, I think that lilyalic's assessment is more objective than your perception of the contributors to this thread slipping into uncritical groupthink.

suggesting that she look at her own part in the relationship as well as that of her mother.

Yes, but you were blaming the victim, and trying to suggest, in an abrasive and blaming way, that lilyalic was in some way responsible for her mother's behaviour. As Carlisle pointed out, it's all in the delivery.

Sometimes we need to remember the big picture - the cause rather than the symptoms.

Indeed. But are you still trying to point back to lilyalic? What do you have in mind as 'the cause'?

At the risk of sounding patronising I want to say that we also need to remember one of the fundamentals of the teachings gained from the Cs - Knowledge Protects.

And this is precisely what lilyalic is doing in this thread - gaining knowledge.

 

[Renaissance]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

Lilyalic's animals are actually being fostered right now,

I'm not sure that a discussion of this seriousness is the place for a game of semantics. Do you, Renaissance?

There is no game of semantics. Foster care has a broader definition than you were originally stating it as, and I was elaborating in hopes to give another perspective. But perhaps I should have elaborated more. If fostering her animals to someone other than her mother does look like a possible option for Lilyalic, looking for care takers could include qualified strangers but it may also include considering friends or other family members.

I also think it's interesting that you emphasis the seriousness of the discussion when you downplay the abuse Lilyalic has gone through. There was also no need to create drama by implying that I'm playing games. If you have a question (or reaction) about how something is stated, please feel free to ask to get more input.

and it seems like it's not a good situation for them or Lilyalic.

Nor, indeed, Lilyalic's mother. But the house isn't burning down. A dysfunctional relationship is presenting a challenge which is why Lilyalic has posted. Where is the need to remove the family pets from their home.

I think you're glossing over the abuse here. Getting to the point where someone has had enough of being abused is an important step, and often enough there are moves a person can make that either limit or cut off the unhealthy dynamic. Since Lilyalic stated one of the big ties to her mother is her animals (and that her mother uses them against her) it does make sense to work on untying that knot.

I think you're making some assumptions here.

I would appreciate knowing the assumptions you think I am making?

I did address them in the post I wrote, but this is specifically what I was addressing:

That having your animals fostered (or suggesting it as an option) means you're not really an animal lover
That a person who has their children fostered is acting psychopathically (or would be considered as such) - and the implication of the same for this situation
That L's animals are in a place they love (implied)

I wouldn't say that they're in a loving environment.

Why would you say that? Lilyalic hasn't said that her animals are living in an environment devoid of love.

Perhaps you should reread the posts in this thread.

I try to remember that things are often not so black and white.

Yes, me too. But we can only respond to the evidence we hold. When we start seeing some colour our response becomes richer. It's all part of the levels involved in communication I guess.

Unless that 'colour' is normalizing pathology, which it appears you are doing.

Sometimes things like foster care, whether for an animal or human is actually a good and healthy thing.

Absolutely. I had a violent father and a depressive mother. They brought a puppy into our family unit when I was about ten. A few months later they gave her to a rescue home. I was so relieved when they took her away because she was suffering from the constantly volatile environment in which she existed, and I found it hard to bear.

Yet you can't see the abuse occurring in this situation.

We have no reason to assume that Lilyalic's situation is as destructive as that in terms of degree.

That's untrue and there are plenty of examples of why, which L has already written about. But I'm not sure if rereading the thread would be helpful at this point. Reading up on the psychology books as recommended might be helpful though as it seems your normalizing some harmful stuff..

Nor that her animals are living in fear without experiencing love from the humans in their home environment. We certainly don't have evidence that her animals should be evicted, nor a desire on her part for such a drastic action. I think that the suggestion should have been held back until we had sufficient information from Lilyalic.

There is information in this thread to make fair deductions that the animals are not living in a loving home and the situation it is causing further harm to L, but you appear to be normalizing abuse.

I worked in foster care for a little while and many of the parents I met were pretty amazing people. I've also known of some that were god awful and this is where research is needed.

It's a minefield. The british system actually placed a girl of six with us when I was around twelve. My mother was desperate for a girl. The child lasted as long as the puppy. Need I say more?

Actually, you may want to look and see if there is anything from your live that may have prompted many of your replies in this thread. There could be some subconscious reaction to various things that could be in need of resolving / healing.

 

[Gwenllian]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

What you're doing here IMO is some sort of black and white "über-moralism" where you're basically blaming the victim for not having enough understanding for the abuser.

A full and genuine reading of her posts show that she - (Lilyalic, sorry to refer to you as a third party, but I would like to explain to Aragorn, and you, that far from the "über-moralism" that Aragorn accuses me of, there is a carefully reasoned and compassionate basis underlying my first post) - is just as unsure of herself, as she is of her mother. One thing is clear though - she loves her. Her remarks about loving her Mum far outnumber those of hate.

I find it remarkable that you think Aragorn is accusing you. To my mind he has only held up a mirror and you only have to look at it.
Have you been accused a lot when you were young?

But certain non-neutral forum members, those that relate subjectively to Lilyalic's issue, or those who seemed to want to post their own stream-of-consciousness solutions to her issue, jumped on the 'narcissist mother' bandwagon. The focus was then put on her mother as the big bad bogeyman.
...
It is all too easy and common for people new to the concept of narcissism (and other disorders) to start seeing the symptoms in people they are having a dysfunctional relationship with. I am not saying Lilyalic's mother isn't narcissistic - she more than likely is going by Lilyalic's posts. But encouraging her to run with that could easily have hindered rather than helped her. All the blame was being attached to her mother.

The way you express yourself is somewhat telling IMO. Saying things like jumping on the 'narcissist mother' bandwagon, the big bad bogeyman. That's not neutral at all.
I for one was only capable of recognizing my mother's narcissism after reading the big five books. Otherwise, I would never have called her narcissistic.
Others have already said to you that you should read the psychology books and I agree. Maybe you have already read them, I don't know, but you seem to know very little about narcissism.
FWIW.

Added:

In Amazing Grace, Laura, speaking about putting attention on evil, negative ideas, wrote:
However, a comprehensive understanding of these forces is absolutely necessary in order to know how to give them less energy.
Sometimes we need to remember the big picture - the cause rather than the symptoms. At the risk of sounding patronising I want to say that we also need to remember one of the fundamentals of the teachings gained from the Cs - Knowledge Protects.

I think you are using Laura's writings here to prove your point, which IMO is an example of confirmatory bias and cognitive dissonance. But I could be wrong.

 

[1984]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

I do believe I hate her due to my abuse when I was young, [...]

[...] I always block out my emotions to how much she if effecting me, and I understand how much it actually upsets me- [...]

You mention blocking your emotions, lilyalic. Have you pursued previous professional therapy regarding your childhood? If not, have you considered it? Apologies if I've missed the mention elsewhere, or if it's already been asked.

 

[mada85]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

lilyalic, I've read through this thread again very carefully. I think that, given your issues, your intense hatred and anger towards your mother, and the love you have for her, that it would be very beneficial for you to seek therapy or counselling. This would help you to disentangle the strands of hatred, anger and love, and help you to find a more mature way of relating to her.

I notice that you're currently at university. I'm pretty sure that most universities have a trained counsellor or therapist on the staff. They may not be exactly what you need, but will be able to refer you to someone more suited, if that's the case.

One often finds that if one person in a relationship works on and heals their own issues, to the extent possible for them, then the other person changes too. Even if that doesn't happen, at least you will have gained some healing for yourself.

 

[lilyalic]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

You mention blocking your emotions, lilyalic. Have you pursued previous professional therapy regarding your childhood? If not, have you considered it? Apologies if I've missed the mention elsewhere, or if it's already been asked.

I notice that you're currently at university. I'm pretty sure that most universities have a trained counsellor or therapist on the staff. They may not be exactly what you need, but will be able to refer you to someone more suited, if that's the case.

One often finds that if one person in a relationship works on and heals their own issues, to the extent possible for them, then the other person changes too. Even if that doesn't happen, at least you will have gained some healing for yourself.

I've been to a "therapist" before but this wasn't on my Mother's behalf, and I had a bad experience, because it ended in the Therapist declaring that I should "come back when I'm ready to talk" - This 'negatively' has influences on me ever trying to seek help again.

To get to "the right" kind of Therapist, or the right kind of help, it takes a lot of processes and waiting lists, in which I could be doing the work myself. Bringing it all back up from the start by talking about it with a Therapist, I don't believe would have positive outcomes.

I don't know why I'm against seeking such help, maybe it's because I wouldn't know where to start, and when I went to my doctors over Anxiety and Depression etc, I even told them I hadn't slept in 3 days straight, they just prescribed me medication and it had side effects such as Insomnia?!

I believe talking about it on this Forum, and what people have written helps a great deal, if I ever make this a prime struggle in my life (but I suppose it holds the most interference) then I would consider going through the process again.

Thank you for your suggestions, maybe it is something I need to consider again, but like I said, the responses on this thread have helped in the way I know I need to take a more adult approach with my Mother, and need to listen and read about more ways of dealing with Narcissistic behaviour.

Kind Regards

 

[mada85]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

I've been to a "therapist" before but this wasn't on my Mother's behalf, and I had a bad experience, because it ended in the Therapist declaring that I should "come back when I'm ready to talk" - This 'negatively' has influences on me ever trying to seek help again.

I wasn't suggesting that you should go to a therapist on your mother's behalf. The point is to find healing for oneself and this can then have 'ripple' effects that could indirectly help your mother. I know this may sound a little strange, but I have seen it in my own relationships with family members.

Do bear in mind that your negative experience was only with that particular therapist. Therapists can be as different as chalk and cheese!

To get to "the right" kind of Therapist, or the right kind of help, it takes a lot of processes and waiting lists, in which I could be doing the work myself.

You could consider going through the processes and waiting lists as working on yourself: working towards an aim.

You can also have a trial consultation with a therapist, and if you don't feel comfortable with that particular person, can then look for another. Here in the UK, you can have counselling with MIND. I believe you can have up to twelve sessions with them for free. It's good to make a small donation though, as they are a charity.

I understand about the waiting lists. MIND's waiting list is a few months, if I remember rightly. However, there are issues that can best be addressed with professional help. You can, of course, continue to work on yourself in the meantime, even while you are on a waiting list.

Bringing it all back up from the start by talking about it with a Therapist, I don't believe would have positive outcomes.

Well, one doesn't have to discuss everything from the start. One can discuss how one is in the moment, and use this as the springboard to investigate how the past affects the present.

 

[1984]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

I've been to a "therapist" before but this wasn't on my Mother's behalf, and I had a bad experience, because it ended in the Therapist declaring that I should "come back when I'm ready to talk" - This 'negatively' has influences on me ever trying to seek help again.
[...]
I believe talking about it on this Forum, and what people have written helps a great deal, if I ever make this a prime struggle in my life (but I suppose it holds the most interference) then I would consider going through the process again.

The issues surrounding your mother do appear to be a 'prime struggle' for you though, at least with what you have written about your mother beginning with your intro post. While discussing life experiences here on the forum is helpful, it doesn't - and shouldn't - replace discussing such trauma with a trained professional. There is only so much that the forum can offer in that regard.

As well, one bad experience with a therapist shouldn't prohibit you from seeking additional counseling. Unfortunately, there are a lot of quacks out there so one must tread carefully when choosing a good therapist. Perhaps consider Endymion's suggestion for local UK help and go from there.

 

[Gaby]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

I've been to a "therapist" before but this wasn't on my Mother's behalf, and I had a bad experience, because it ended in the Therapist declaring that I should "come back when I'm ready to talk" - This 'negatively' has influences on me ever trying to seek help again.

To get to "the right" kind of Therapist, or the right kind of help, it takes a lot of processes and waiting lists, in which I could be doing the work myself. Bringing it all back up from the start by talking about it with a Therapist, I don't believe would have positive outcomes.

I don't know why I'm against seeking such help, maybe it's because I wouldn't know where to start, and when I went to my doctors over Anxiety and Depression etc, I even told them I hadn't slept in 3 days straight, they just prescribed me medication and it had side effects such as Insomnia?!

I believe talking about it on this Forum, and what people have written helps a great deal, if I ever make this a prime struggle in my life (but I suppose it holds the most interference) then I would consider going through the process again.

Thank you for your suggestions, maybe it is something I need to consider again, but like I said, the responses on this thread have helped in the way I know I need to take a more adult approach with my Mother, and need to listen and read about more ways of dealing with Narcissistic behaviour.

Kind Regards

When I was searching for a therapist, I narrowed it to two of them. Both sessions were very useful. One therapist was very caring and compassionate, but she left me with the impression that she was going to spoil the hell out of me. I felt as if she was going to reinforce a negative feedback loop and that was the last thing I wanted. The other one was not precisely so likeable as the first one, but she did made me work much more. She was not about "mind reading" and kept asking me questions because she didn't understood what I was saying or where I was coming from. If she was going to understand anything from me, I had to make efforts to express myself clearly and directly whether I liked it or not. Needless to say, I chose the later one! I don't regret my choice as she makes me work with her questions and that is one of the reasons therapy is so invaluable. If I would have gone with a negative attitude, I would have walked out of that office and/or not come back again. It is not to say that she is a meany, she does care a great deal about me and she is very compassionate. But open communication between both parties is essential and most of her insightful feedback was offered only when I really expressed what was bugging me openly. I have come to trust the process and I am managing to bring sensitive issues out in the open that I never managed to do before despite years of getting online feedback. Now her questions don't come across as "bothersome" but actually quite natural due to the very nature of communication.

Yes, getting feedback does help a lot, but establishing a personal relationship "live" with someone with the professional background and experience with these issues is invaluable.

My therapist has an integrative/Jungian background, a la "Drama of the Gifted Child". While it is not easy to find the right therapist for you, the effort to find the truth about the root of your problems does help a lot in the process. Or so it seems to me.

My 2 cents!

 

[Vic]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

Okay, it looks like I have upset a few people. I don't think Lilyalic is one of them. She has been a lot more objective in response to my post than some of those long-timers who have weighed in with judgements about me. Some accuse me of being aggressive and then judge me aggressively. They also make assumptions. We're all human.

But, it's obvious there is something going on with me. And whatever the motivation behind those that have jumped on me they are clearly highlighting something in me that needs addressing. I thank you all for that. The thought just came up that perhaps I am subconsciously seeking a mirror.

I hate being criticised, attacked etc. Especially en masse. It makes me want to fight harder and take everyone on. I'm not going to do that of course, although the instinct is there. I was brought up to take a kicking rather than back down. Complete programming - I know.

Right, this is Lilyalic's thread. Should I head over to the Swamp and sort of open up, give a basic account of myself, and request feedback? I would like to get this sorted because it's clearly affecting my delivery, holding me back,and using up other people's energy that could be better spent.

 

[lilyalic]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

Okay, it looks like I have upset a few people. I don't think Lilyalic is one of them. She has been a lot more objective in response to my post than some of those long-timers who have weighed in with judgements about me. Some accuse me of being aggressive and then judge me aggressively. They also make assumptions. We're all human.

But, it's obvious there is something going on with me. And whatever the motivation behind those that have jumped on me they are clearly highlighting something in me that needs addressing. I thank you all for that. The thought just came up that perhaps I am subconsciously seeking a mirror.

I hate being criticised, attacked etc. Especially en masse. It makes me want to fight harder and take everyone on. I'm not going to do that of course, although the instinct is there. I was brought up to take a kicking rather than back down. Complete programming - I know.

Right, this is Lilyalic's thread. Should I head over to the Swamp and sort of open up, give a basic account of myself, and request feedback? I would like to get this sorted because it's clearly affecting my delivery, holding me back,and using up other people's energy that could be better spent.

I never expressed my feelings upon your "attacks" because I thought I'd let more experienced Members comment on them, but in a way, something functional has come from it, because now your programmes has been pointed out and you've recognised them yourself.

I didn't take anything personal, as we all have issues.

Kind Regards

 

[1984]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

Right, this is Lilyalic's thread. Should I head over to the Swamp and sort of open up, give a basic account of myself, and request feedback? I would like to get this sorted because it's clearly affecting my delivery, holding me back,and using up other people's energy that could be better spent.

No reason not to take it to the Swamp, Strawman. It could be beneficial to everyone as well as keeping this thread on-topic.

 

[Vic]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

Okay, it looks like I have upset a few people. I don't think Lilyalic is one of them. She has been a lot more objective in response to my post than some of those long-timers who have weighed in with judgements about me. Some accuse me of being aggressive and then judge me aggressively. They also make assumptions. We're all human.

But, it's obvious there is something going on with me. And whatever the motivation behind those that have jumped on me they are clearly highlighting something in me that needs addressing. I thank you all for that. The thought just came up that perhaps I am subconsciously seeking a mirror.

I hate being criticised, attacked etc. Especially en masse. It makes me want to fight harder and take everyone on. I'm not going to do that of course, although the instinct is there. I was brought up to take a kicking rather than back down. Complete programming - I know.

Right, this is Lilyalic's thread. Should I head over to the Swamp and sort of open up, give a basic account of myself, and request feedback? I would like to get this sorted because it's clearly affecting my delivery, holding me back,and using up other people's energy that could be better spent.

I never expressed my feelings upon your "attacks" because I thought I'd let more experienced Members comment on them, but in a way, something functional has come from it, because now your programmes has been pointed out and you've recognised them yourself.

I didn't take anything personal, as we all have issues.

Kind Regards

Respect to you, Lilyalic. You are something special. Something interesting has happened. When I read those first few posts I saw a number of people shouting out 'my mother is a narcissist' and then start to compare who's mother was exhibiting the most narcissistic symptoms. That's what I saw. But when I went back to those posts that wasn't there anymore.

Frightening or what? I'm not actually 'frightened' because I know that it is, as someone mentioned, projection. I know how human psychology works because I have been looking at it for decades. But looking at it can act as a distraction from actually dealing with it in oneself. Keep it objective and you don't have to deal with the subjective.

I just looked at your post again - "I never expressed my feelings upon your "attacks"- I know you placed the term 'attacks' in quotes, but is that how you actually experienced, or perceived, my comments?

 

[Vic]

Re: How to stop hating my Narcissistic mother

Right, this is Lilyalic's thread. Should I head over to the Swamp and sort of open up, give a basic account of myself, and request feedback? I would like to get this sorted because it's clearly affecting my delivery, holding me back,and using up other people's energy that could be better spent.

No reason not to take it to the Swamp, Strawman. It could be beneficial to everyone as well as keeping this thread on-topic.

Okay, will do.