Hemochromatosis and Autoimmune Conditions

[LQB]

According to this paper, unless you have an occupational overload, EDTA heavy metals detox is best done at lower dosages:

http://www.riordanclinic.org/research/articles/SDD-2011-v01n02-p81.pdf

From the measurements in this paper it looks like the EDTA really depletes the zinc!

 

[Approaching Infinity]

There's an article by Mercola here which includes the video that had been posted by Ailén and Laura earlier in this thread but includes some additional text. He says that ferritin should fall between 20-80 ng/ml, with an ideal range being 40-60 ng/ml.

I've also tried to compile a list of data for all members who have posted their test results so far. Since there were some gaps and inconsistencies in the data, I haven't included transferrin or UIBC/TIBC, but I've included ferritin, iron, and saturation and organized it by ferritin levels. I hope I got everyone and that it's all accurate, but if anyone sees a mistake let me know:

Member ---------------- Heimdallr logos5x5 Megan Mikel Stoneboss adam7117 aleana Laura Kniall Oxajil Shijing anart 3D Student Navigator Regulattor Gawan (1) Galaxia2002 l apprenti de forgeron Zadius Sky (1) Foxx Resistense Finduilas Gawan (2) Mac Bobo08 Odyssey Zadius Sky (2) Prodigal Son zlyja Lisa Guliani LQB (1) Psyche Guardian LQB (2) Seek10 lux12

Ferritin ---------------- 511 460 432 353 286.4 270 252 239.3 227 222 205 197 192 190.89 174.7 164 158 151 140 138.3 138 131 118 115 108 102 99 98 93 89 81 79 42 38

Iron ---------------- 47 75 107 102 66 48 78.2 75 105 63 116 107.3 124.58 102 112 111 74 155.86 101.68 61.45 37 176 78.2 77 99 101 55 130 52 90.5

Saturation ---------------- 25% 25% 42% 39% 27% 14% 32% 28% 46% 19% 65.4% 48% 38% 34% 46% 37% 17% 16% 53% 24% 31% 15% 44% 18%

UIBC ---------------- 140 224 145 158 177 287 196 125 196 145 54 181 143 296.09 195 158 240 216 307 165 240 229.05

TIBC ---------------- 187 299 252 260 243 335 271 230 259 261 156 292 217 357.54 232 334 317 315 362 295 292 318.44

Didnt know how to edit Shijing's table and include my values, so here are my results as received today

Ferritin 292.5 ng/ml (six months ago it was 230)
Iron 18.8 umol/L
Saturation 33%
TIBC 57.5 umol/L

Just got my results over the phone (will be getting a hard copy soon). Here are my values:

Iron: 18
Ferritin: 215
Saturation: 40%
TIBC: 45

 

[nicklebleu]

According to this paper, unless you have an occupational overload, EDTA heavy metals detox is best done at lower dosages:

http://www.riordanclinic.org/research/articles/SDD-2011-v01n02-p81.pdf

Protocol For IV And Oral EDTA Chelation
http://fight4yourhealth.com/protocols/protocol-for-iv-and-oral-edta-chelation


Reactions to Oral Chelation?

http://fight4yourhealth.com/answers/reactions-to-oral-chelation

Interesting paper ... still mulling the idea of trying IV EDTA, so it seems that lower dosage might be the go (1 g of Sodium EDTA instead of 3g).

As to oral EDTA, what protocol do people use?

I currently take:
- 1600mg of oral EDTA (2 caps)
- 200mg of DMSA (2caps)
- I do this 4 out of 7 days at the moment. Planning to do this forma few months and then maybe to reduce the amount of cycles per month to maybe 2.

But interested in what others do ...

 

[Stoneboss]

Since the last doctor I saw refused to give me a blood test for more than just the ferritin level, I decided to see a Naturopath. By going with a Natuopath I was able to get a more in depth test for iron, but had to pay for it. Anyway, the results were: iron 55.8, TIBC 329.6, and saturation at 17%. For some reason he didn't include the ferritin level, so I went to see another doctor yesterday to get another blood test for ferritin. It took a bit of convincing for him to give me a requisition for another test for ferritin because he felt that my last test at 286.4 was perfectly okay, and I should just leave it alone. However, I got the requisition and will get the results in a couple of days. (He told me that if the ferritin level came back below the 300 marker that he wouldn't bother calling me, but I insisted that I wanted to know the exact number no matter what it was!)

Also, for the iron test with the Naturopath, the blood was taken at the time of the visit, so there was no fasting prior to the drawing of blood. Would this affect the accuracy of the results?

I just got my blood test results for ferritin levels today. It's at 113.8! The last blood test for ferritin was on April 4, just over two months ago, and it was at 286.4. And so my ferritin levels have dropped by 172.6 points in two months, giving blood only once since then (a month ago), and 3 cycles of oral EDTA. There are only two things that I can think of that might account for the quick reduction in ferritin: I quit alcohol 5 months ago (not a drop since), and I started doing "high intensity" weight training (once every 5 days or so) about 6 weeks ago.

Whatever it is that I'm doing, it seems to be working at this point. As I said previously, I will continue to give blood every 56 days and a couple of EDTA cycles a month. I'll see about getting another blood test a couple of months down the road... hopefully I don't drop another 172 points! :D

 

[Lindenlea]

These are my results from an Iron Panel I did 2 weeks ago.

Ferritin 87 ug/L (15 - 290)
Iron 14 umol/L (10 - 33)
Saturation 27 % (16 - 50)
TIBC 52 umol/L (45 - 70)

The other tests at the same time were Full Blood, Serum Biochemistry and vitamin B12 & Folate, which were also within the parameters.

 

[Laura]

According to this paper, unless you have an occupational overload, EDTA heavy metals detox is best done at lower dosages:

http://www.riordanclinic.org/research/articles/SDD-2011-v01n02-p81.pdf

From the measurements in this paper it looks like the EDTA really depletes the zinc!

Yes. This is why it is important to re-mineralize faithfully.

I've been taking a 750 mg EDTA with an alpha lipoic acid capsule most days now, before breakfast, taking minerals at night before bed. No DMSA.

 

[nicklebleu]

According to this paper, unless you have an occupational overload, EDTA heavy metals detox is best done at lower dosages:

http://www.riordanclinic.org/research/articles/SDD-2011-v01n02-p81.pdf

From the measurements in this paper it looks like the EDTA really depletes the zinc!

Yes. This is why it is important to re-mineralize faithfully.

I've been taking a 750 mg EDTA with an alpha lipoic acid capsule most days now, before breakfast, taking minerals at night before bed. No DMSA.

What dose is the ALA capsule - I seem only to be able to find 600mg caps, which is a huge dose. I used to divide them into 10 parts - around 50mg, but that's a bit of a drag.

 

[clearmiddle]

It seems to me that some people may be seeing high ferritin levels in lab tests and thinking that that alone implies iron overload. It could indicate iron overload, but it could indicate lots of other things as well.

Here are some comments about the inflammatory markers CRP (C-reactive protein) and ferritin, from Chris Kresser's latest podcast:

Steve Wright: And if someone did want to test for just inflammation markers, do you have any thoughts there?

Chris Kresser: Well, there isn’t really any perfect way to do that. I mean, C-reactive protein is a systemic inflammatory marker. That can be elevated in some cases, but not all. I’ve had patients with raging gut inflammation, Crohn’s disease type of problems with normal C-reactive protein, so it’s not always reliable that way. If it is elevated, it does suggest that there’s some kind of inflammatory process happening, but it can be elevated even by a virus, like a common cold. It’s a helpful marker. It can be useful. You just have to understand its limitations. And you have to get tested at least twice and preferably three times to really have a sense of what it is because there’s so much intraindividual variation, which means it can change a lot from reading to reading in a given person, in part because of the factors that I just mentioned. So C-reactive protein is one possibility.

Interleukin-6 is another general systemic inflammatory marker. I will sometimes run that on patients. Ferritin, which is the long-term storage form of iron, can also be elevated in the inflammatory response because it’s an acute phase reactant, just like C-reactive protein, which means it’s a type of protein that’s elevated in the inflammatory response. So if I see a patient that has high ferritin but other iron levels are normal, I’ll usually suspect that there’s some inflammatory process happening. You can also do CD4 and CD8 immune panels, which measure the ratio of certain white blood cells and can be indicative of inflammation. You can do a sed rate, erythrocyte sedimentation rate, or ESR, which is another way of measuring inflammation, but this should all really be done, especially those last tests should be done under the supervision of a healthcare practitioner who knows what they’re doing because some of it can be difficult to interpret.

All of that said, in most cases, inflammation is kind of one of those things that, with the exception of cardiovascular inflammation, which isn’t symptomatic, most other types of inflammation is symptomatic and you kind of know when you’re inflamed, and the tests are just there to confirm that and maybe track the results of the treatment.

The podcast transcript is at _http://chriskresser.com/new-ibs-fodmap-research-overtraining-and-acne-and-treating-alopecia-areata

I googled around for other information about ferritin as an inflammatory marker independent of iron status, and there is quite a bit out there -- I invite you to do your own search. I found a discussion here about ferritin that seems to give a good overview.

Serum ferritin can be highly elevated in conditions not categorized as iron overload: inflammatory bowel disease, thyroid disease, rheumatoid arthritis or hereditary hyperferritinemiacataract syndrome (HFCS). HFCS is a disorder that results in early onset cataracts; SF will be dramatically increased in these individuals. Phlebotomy is not warranted and could actually do harm if performed therapeutically to lower serum ferritin.

One research report I found is Association between serum ferritin and measures of inflammation, nutrition and iron in haemodialysis patients

Results. ... A multivariate model showed simultaneous, significant correlations between serum ferritin and both markers of inflammation and iron status independent of each other...

Conclusions. Serum ferritin values in the range of 200–2000 ng/ml may be increased due to non-iron-related factors including elements of MICS.

I did not go through the details of the paper, but the full text is available at the above link.

 

[Mike]

It seems to me that some people may be seeing high ferritin levels in lab tests and thinking that that alone implies iron overload. It could indicate iron overload, but it could indicate lots of other things as well.

Here are some comments about the inflammatory markers CRP (C-reactive protein) and ferritin, from Chris Kresser's latest podcast:

[...]

All of that said, in most cases, inflammation is kind of one of those things that, with the exception of cardiovascular inflammation, which isn’t symptomatic, most other types of inflammation is symptomatic and you kind of know when you’re inflamed, and the tests are just there to confirm that and maybe track the results of the treatment.

That's interesting. As if figuring things out wasn't difficult enough. Wonder what he is talking about in terms of symptoms in the podcast you linked to and I bolded? I don't think The Iron Elephant mentions this at all.

I have a blood donation set up for tomorrow morning and after thinking about people and possibilities looks like I know three people relatively close to where I live (within three hours drive) that have nursing experience. So if I need to self-decant, I have some options. Though Stoneboss looks to have had a lot of success with EDTA and strength training.

 

[Mike]

Doing a little research into mental health and iron overload. There doesn't seem to be a lot of information out there other than various articles and websites mentioned depression in relation to iron overload.

Did find a forum post: http://www.toomuchiron.ca/forums/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=350

that had linked to this article http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=19990303204921

MENTAL PROBLEMS AND HEAVY METALS Iron and copper can interfere with brain chemicals, the neurotransmitters, which can result in depression, anxiety, aggressive behaviour and memory loss. Research shows that learning disabled, hyperactive, retarded and autistic children almost all have elevated copper, and the ones who don't have elevated lead levels (Psychopharmacology Bulletin, 1978). Violent children tend to have high levels of copper compared with those who are not violent (Medical Post, Feb 1995). Dr. Yiu at the University of Western Ontario found that patients who suffered from depression and mental illness had high iron and copper levels. Dr. Cutler did pioneering work in the treatment of psychiatric illness using deferoxamine which can cross the blood-brain barrier and remove these metals (Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 1994).

The author of the above wrote a book - 'Iron: A Double Edged Sword' and the article says that the book contains the references for the article, so I'm going to try to track down this book. I messaged the Consumer Health website, because it is one of the only places that lists the book and online ordering is disabled.

Edit Added:
Tracked down some info. from the Dr. Cutler mentioned above:

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1994-34469-001

Iron overload and psychiatric illness.

Cutler, Paul

The Canadian Journal of Psychiatry / La Revue canadienne de psychiatrie, Vol 39(1), Feb 1994, 8-11.

Abstract

Found iron overload (as manifested by abnormal serum ferritin, transferrin, saturation index, or excessive urinary iron) in 7 patients with varying psychiatric disorders. The Ss include a 60-yr-old woman with depression, a 23-yr-old man with anxiety and other symptoms, a 26-yr-old man with schizophrenia, a 73-yr-old man with sudden memory loss, a 23-yr-old man with depression, a 36-yr-old man with depression, and a 59-yr-old woman with depression. All Ss showed significant clinical improvement when iron levels were lowered through treatment with deferoxamine in a dose of 10 mg/kg twice a week over 7–22 wks. The cause of iron overload in the Ss was likely hereditary. (French abstract) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)

I'm going to try and track down the full report.

Also an article from Dr. Cutler that briefly mentions:
http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=19990303140150

PSYCHIATRIC DISORDERS
If the iron is not needed by the bone marrow to make new red cells, then it goes to tissues like the liver. The next major source for storage of iron is the brain. Iron affects the neurotransmitters in the brain, affecting the hydroxylase system in the brain, so that psychiatric symptoms and neurological symptoms like confusional states, dizziness, mood disorders, and even ringing in the ears are relatively common.

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

After this article I'm convinced that Dr. Mercola (probably his stuff) is fallowing this forum regularly. Check this out.

_http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/06/05/elevated-iron-levels.aspx?e_cid=20130605_DNL_art_1&utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20130605

Well, that seems to be the case! They do well to follow this forum.
(but they should so advise the public? Perhaps may not be a good strategy in this world dominated by soulless. Although it would be nice if they communicate to the moderators that they are taking information from here, for not live off the efforts of others ... anyway, if Mercola's staff don't altered the information, it may be helpful for others to know)

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

Doing a little research into mental health and iron overload. There doesn't seem to be a lot of information out there other than various articles and websites mentioned depression in relation to iron overload.

Did find a forum post: http://www.toomuchiron.ca/forums/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=350

that had linked to this article http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=19990303204921

MENTAL PROBLEMS AND HEAVY METALS Iron and copper can interfere with brain chemicals, the neurotransmitters, which can result in depression, anxiety, aggressive behaviour and memory loss. Research shows that learning disabled, hyperactive, retarded and autistic children almost all have elevated copper, and the ones who don't have elevated lead levels (Psychopharmacology Bulletin, 1978). Violent children tend to have high levels of copper compared with those who are not violent (Medical Post, Feb 1995). Dr. Yiu at the University of Western Ontario found that patients who suffered from depression and mental illness had high iron and copper levels. Dr. Cutler did pioneering work in the treatment of psychiatric illness using deferoxamine which can cross the blood-brain barrier and remove these metals (Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 1994).

Depression, anxiety, aggressive behaviour and memory loss! knowing the danger of iron to the whole organism, becomes more interesting the affirmation of the C's. Maybe before genetic mutation, have large amounts of iron in the blood was a defense for the carrier and that is why the subconscious continues to apply the same "mechanism" of before the mutation that today is counterproductive? Maybe the mutation coincided with much more macro phenomena as changes in the Gravity (Which could affect genetics?) or the introduction of psychopaths in the human world (if there more violence because HH, then could fit well thats psychopaths. Though I have no idea how it affects HH to the psychopaths themselves)?. Well, I hope this is not too much noise or too much maybes!

 

[monotonic]

After this article I'm convinced that Dr. Mercola (probably his stuff) is fallowing this forum regularly. Check this out.

_http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/06/05/elevated-iron-levels.aspx?e_cid=20130605_DNL_art_1&utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20130605

Well, that seems to be the case! They do well to follow this forum.
(but they should so advise the public? Perhaps may not be a good strategy in this world dominated by soulless. Although it would be nice if they communicate to the moderators that they are taking information from here, for not live off the efforts of others ... anyway, if Mercola's staff don't altered the information, it may be helpful for others to know)

AFAIK we are not trying to hide what we are discovering, and it's a good thing if this knowledge gets out there. If you were talking to another person and discussing what you learned here about iron, would you blame yourself for not explicitly bringing up the forum? After all, we only gather information from a variety of sources that are as available to us as anyone. To my knowledge, as far as we're concerned, guests coming to this forum and sharing what we've discovered is all that we would hope for.

That is an interesting idea that iron may affect psychopaths differently.

 

[Mike]

It seems to me that some people may be seeing high ferritin levels in lab tests and thinking that that alone implies iron overload. It could indicate iron overload, but it could indicate lots of other things as well.

Here are some comments about the inflammatory markers CRP (C-reactive protein) and ferritin, from Chris Kresser's latest podcast:

[...]

All of that said, in most cases, inflammation is kind of one of those things that, with the exception of cardiovascular inflammation, which isn’t symptomatic, most other types of inflammation is symptomatic and you kind of know when you’re inflamed, and the tests are just there to confirm that and maybe track the results of the treatment.

That's interesting. As if figuring things out wasn't difficult enough. Wonder what he is talking about in terms of symptoms in the podcast you linked to and I bolded? I don't think The Iron Elephant mentions this at all.

Just read this in Detox with Oral Chelation and thought I would share an excerpt of it since looks like EDTA would help deal with inflammation and 'silent' inflamation associated with the cardiovascular system as well as lowering iron levels. Looks like a win-win situation for taking EDTA. The whole book thus far is pretty good information.

Inflammation is a characteristic reaction of tissues to injury or disease that is marked by swelling, redness, heat and unusually pain. However, there is also a common form of inflammation known as 'silent inflammation' that is painless but extremely dangerous. Silent inflammation, which is often linked to diet, has been correlated with a higher incidence of cardiovascular disease and has been identified as one of the most important factors in the formation of plaque and arterial disease.

Silent inflammation is caused by elevated insulin levels in the body, which are caused by too much refined sugar and too many simple carbohydrates in one's diet. Many people are unaware of the fact that reducing sugars and carbohydrates in one's diet is every bit as important as cutting out the wrong types of fat, if one is interested in maintaining cardiovascular health as he or she ages. Carbohydrates are coverted by the body into sugars, which elevates blood-glucose levels. In response to the elevated levels of sugar, the pancreas releases insulin into the bloodstream, which allows cells to metabolize the sugar and helps the body to compound the storage of fat. Too much fat storage can be a problem because obesity is linked to silent inflammation and cardiovascular disease. [...]

He goes on to talk about how a low-glycemic diet with the proper fats such as fish oil help with fighting inflammation, so ketogenic and even the paleo diet would seem to be idea for this 'silent' inflammation. Then he talks about how EDTA comes in.

EDTA chelation therapy is also thought to reduce inflammation, due to its powerful antioxidant properties, as one of the ways that improves cardiovascular health. EDTA chelation therapy may partically work by reducing the damaging effects of oxidative stress on the walls of the blood vessels, and this could reduce inflammation in the arteries and improve blood vessel fuction. [...]

So looks like ketogenic diet along with EDTA would help deal with inflammation that is mentioned in the podcast mentioned by Megan and a person could then focus on reducing any iron overload with decanting, etc. EDTA can be used to lower iron at the same time or alone in cases where decanting isn't possible with the added benefit of heavy metal detox.

 

[Luis Miguel]

Just and update here. I managed to get a doctor's prescription for the decantings :), so I took it to the Red Cross, and I just have to pay for the used material in each session (very little money - about 10 dollars). Also the people and nurses working in there are very nice and caring... But I just couldn't believe the size of the needles! I almost felt assaulted the first time I saw the nurse approaching me with it :D... Just half kidding here, do not fear them; yes, they are big, but innocuous, don’t get a bad idea.

The first medic that I went to see to get the prescription, hadn't a clue of iron overload or hemochromatosis, he basically read the analysis results and based his comments on the recommended "limits" of it. He also said that he wouldn't advice the decantings because my hemoglobin levels were low, normal, but in the low limit, so no prescription for that... But of course, he couldn’t let me go empty handed, so he prescribed me some nasty statins because my cholesterol levels were “unhealthy”, I just gave him a nice “yes of course Doc”, thank him, paid for the consult, and went away a little desolated and empty handed… I felt cheated! ;D

The last medic was a family acquaintance and was open to prescribe the decantings, this first prescription recommended 4 decantings - 1 every 2 weeks -, then I’ll go for a new analysis and see how things are developing. The doctor will give me another prescription as needed.

This past Friday was my 3rd decanting and I’m feeling better, with more energy and mind clarity. I’m also gaining weight, about 1 to 1.5 kilos per session, that is good because I’ve always been very skinny. The only strange thing that I noted from this last decanting was that I felt very weak and fell asleep all day, I woke up, supper, and back to sleep again, kind of exasperating but needed - this didn't happen with the other decantings -. But everything got back to normal the next day.

So far, all the weird symptoms have gone, including the weird palpitations, just the chronic fatigue remains. It's frustrating because I like to be very active, and some days I just have to take naps during the day, something very uncommon in me. But well, on the bright side, this "forced stop" has been very helpful so far because I’ve been able to catch up with some pending readings and some needed recapitulation… So, expect me in the swamp soon ;).

Also, maybe there's another factor that exacerbates the fatigue issue, I'm not really sure if it's related, but we have been having a very nasty and unusual heat in the city, and I just cannot function right with it, it's that kind of heat that numbs your mind :S.

Another thing that came to my mind, is that one night about 3 years ago, i suffered a very nasty arrhythmia event, i felt like if my hearth was going to stop suddenly. I had some irregular palpitations and minor arrhythmias prior and after this event. I ended up with a cardiologist that ran some analysis and measurements and told me that everything was just fine with my hearth . This arrhythmias hadn't affected me until a couple of months ago, but they are gone now. Maybe this can also be related to the iron issue?