Hemochromatosis and Autoimmune Conditions

fabric

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I was able to donate blood at a blood clinic on Friday. They had me fill out some questions and then checked my pulse and hemoglobin. When it came to my weight, they didn't actually weigh me, just asked me. Last I checked I weighed 110lbs so that was apparently just within the parameters. The nurse told me I had nice veins :P

Anyway, it took about 12 min to once they started for me to fill a bag. The needle was a little uncomfortable at times (I didn't realize how big a 16g needle is) but tolerable. They kept asking me how I felt the whole time... and I felt fine. After it was done I actually felt pretty good - no dizziness or tiredness. Even today feel pretty alert. I guess I really needed to unload some blood!

Will be starting rounds of EDTA once I get the mineral supplements. So the basic protocol is to take it on the morning with ALA and other vitamins and then mineral supplements in the evening? I usually take ALA, NAC, and multivitamins in the morning.
 

Galaxia2002

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fabric said:
Will be starting rounds of EDTA once I get the mineral supplements. So the basic protocol is to take it on the morning with ALA and other vitamins and then mineral supplements in the evening? I usually take ALA, NAC, and multivitamins in the morning.

Yes, be sure that the vitamins doesn't contain any minerals. The minerals all at the evening
 

Gaby

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Megan said:
Are you not able to order The Iron Elephant using the link appearing several times earlier in this topic? I could scan the book -- it would take me an hour or two -- although I would suggest checking with IOD first (ironoverload.org).

I have a scanned copy of the book. If you can't get it at http://www.bookch.com/6371.htm for whatever reason, let me know through PM and I'll give you a link for a download. To help the author, let's make sure to write a review of the book or get a copy whenever it is possible.
 

Voyageur

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Ennio said:
I think also that maybe the emotions come of the humility of seeing and acting on certain things that we know are connected to the greater reality we are looking at, if that makes any sense.

Thanks, it makes sense.
 

herondancer

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fabric said:
Anyway, it took about 12 min to once they started for me to fill a bag. The needle was a little uncomfortable at times (I didn't realize how big a 16g needle is) but tolerable. They kept asking me how I felt the whole time... and I felt fine. After it was done I actually felt pretty good - no dizziness or tiredness. Even today feel pretty alert. I guess I really needed to unload some blood!

I donated blood about three weeks ago, and had the same experience of feeling just fine. They want everyone who donates to stay for twenty minutes for observation, but there were other things I had to do that day so I kind of snuck out. :ninja: I wonder if part of paleolithic physiology was the ability lose a pint of blood or even a bit more, without feeling debilitated. Given the hunter-gather lifestyle, it would be a useful trait.
 

adam7117

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Just wanted to check in and share my experiences with EDTA. I am in the middle of the third round of detox.

I was also a little reluctant to jump into it but my symptoms were definitely getting worse - particularly the tiredness. After the blood panel revealed a raised level of ferritin, it became obvious that something needed to be done.

Here's my protocol:
- 800mg of Ca-EDTA with 200mg of R-ALA on an empty stomach in the morning, three times a week
- no other supplements in the morning
- 220-440mg of Zinc amino acid chelate (equiv. to 22-44mg elemental Zn), 500-1000mg of Magnesium amino acid chelate (equiv. to 100-200mg elemental Mg), 1500mg of fish oil in the evening - amounts vary depending on the "feel" of it
- Vitamin C in the evening but only when a cold is trying to take hold (cold and flu season is truly under way here in Oz)
- During the four days off, I add a good strong Vit. B supplement with Selenium (Eagle Tresos-B)

Symptoms so far:
- Odd, metallic taste in the mouth throughout the day, intensifies in the evening
- Poor skin, mild break-outs (especially in the first two weeks)
- Candida flare-up (!) - that stuff just loves the toxins, by the look of it
- Mild depression, feelings of sadness - mainly during the detox, seems to have improved by the third round
- Improved mental ability - clarity of thought
- Improved ability to vocalise thoughts
- Better concentration and improved ability to deal with stress, strengthened coping mechanisms
- Pain in the left leg largely reduced
- Hair loss not as prominent during the detox
- Improved sleep, feel more rested in the morning

The negative symptoms are more prominent during the detox and basically go away when I don't take EDTA. And they seem to diminish between the rounds as well. The positive symptoms, well, they still do fade a bit between the sessions so I'm looking forward to them "sticking" on a more permanent basis.

The mild depression bouts did surprise me a little. A quick search on serotonin and EDTA came up with this little article:

ScienceDirect said:
Total serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine) concentrations in rat tissues after intravenous infusions of calcium EDTA
_http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0306362375900130

Abstract

1. Studies on total 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) concentrations in tissues in rats infused with toxic doses of CaEDTA at 6 mmoles/kg per 24 hr, for 48 hr, indicate that appreciable alterations in tissue concentration of 5-HT do occur during chelate toxicity.

2. The 5-HT concentrations in brain, duodenum and kidney of CaEDTA infused rats were significantly (P<0·05) lower than 5-HT concentrations in brain, duodenum and kidney of saline infused controls. No significant changes were observed in 5-HT concentrations in the liver of treated rats, compared to controls.
 

mb

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herondancer said:
I donated blood about three weeks ago, and had the same experience of feeling just fine. They want everyone who donates to stay for twenty minutes for observation, but there were other things I had to do that day so I kind of snuck out. :ninja: I wonder if part of paleolithic physiology was the ability lose a pint of blood or even a bit more, without feeling debilitated. Given the hunter-gather lifestyle, it would be a useful trait.

Yes, losing blood (unless all at once) should have been a lesser problem. Losing vital organs (A.K.A. "organ meat") would have been major.
 

Galaxia2002

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I have just read an study that seems indicate that EDTA is a good lead chelator for the lead from the bones but not much from the soft tissues. That can mean that you can effectively being removing lead from the bones but redistribute it to the tissues where is worst to have it, so they proposed to take DMSA. According to them DMSA is a good lead chelator of the soft tissues (kidney, liver)

http://www.altmedrev.com/publications/16/2/109.pdf

some extracts
[...]Finally, they reported that lead excretion after DMSA was greatly increased if EDTA was given first. These findings suggest that EDTA might, in addition to causing lead to be excreted at an accelerated rate in urine, redistribute some lead from trabecular bone to soft tissues, and that DMSA might protect against and facilitate the removal of this redistributed lead. This redistribution is consistent with work by Cory-Slechta et al, who report that EDTA increases liver and brain lead levels in animals. In individuals with a high lead body burden, the potential distribution by EDTA could have effects on more than heme synthesis; the concern is that some of these systemic effects could be serious.
Because of the potential for lead redistribution to soft tissues, administering DMSA after each dose of EDTA might be warranted.
Blood lead remains the most recognized means of testing for current lead exposure, with blood lead levels reflecting current exogenous exposure and exposure from bioavailable body stores. Urinary lead is reflective of blood lead and may provide another means to estimate current exposure.[...]

Conclusion


The findings in this case report support the earlier work of Cory-Slechta and Lee that showed EDTA, while mobilizing lead from the bones, might increase both urinary and soft-tissue levels of lead and cadmium for a period of time after each EDTA treatment. DMSA appears to be effective post-EDTA in chelating this mobilized lead and accelerating its urinary excretion. Of importance is Lee’s observation that large quantities of lead are excreted in the urine following EDTA, but that this is not the case with DMSA. This suggests that EDTA is more
effective in mobilizing the body burden of lead than DMSA. Lee also observed that DMSA-induced lead excretion was significantly greater if EDTA was given first, while giving DMSA prior to EDTA had no apparent effect on EDTA-induced lead excretion.
This suggests a role for DMSA as a follow-up to EDTA for lead intoxication. Our findings in this patient support this potential role for DMSA as a post-EDTA therapy for lead intoxication. If this finding is reproduced in others with high lead burden, it may indicate that oral DMSA should be used after every IV-EDTA treatment for lead intoxication. This study also confirms that some Ayurvedic medications can contain exceptionally high heavy metal levels
 

Voyageur

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Galaxia2002 said:
I have just read an study that seems indicate that EDTA is a good lead chelator for the lead from the bones but not much from the soft tissues. That can mean that you can effectively being removing lead from the bones but redistribute it to the tissues where is worst to have it, so they proposed to take DMSA. According to them DMSA is a good lead chelator of the soft tissues (kidney, liver)

http://www.altmedrev.com/publications/16/2/109.pdf

some extracts

[...]

Thanks for this. Lead aside, i've a question about EDTA as read in the IE book. Roberta discuses on P.48 about chelator's re EDTA and Iron Overload, that in the IV form (especially with Vit-C) it can be dangerous. I'm not sure where i missed in the tread the difference between EDTA pill form and IV form, as the latter seems at odds with a sound treatment and the former associated with positive results. Before embarking on the pill form, just wanted to double check facts on these differences. This Dr. Paul Cutler gives good observation about iron overloaded patients being made more ill ("heart attacks, stroke or atrial fibrillation") under EDTA IV treatments.

Justin, in another thread, discusses IV's and EDTA a little here, yet am not understanding the mechanisms for the beneficial variance of the pill form.
 

nicklebleu

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voyageur said:
Galaxia2002 said:
I have just read an study that seems indicate that EDTA is a good lead chelator for the lead from the bones but not much from the soft tissues. That can mean that you can effectively being removing lead from the bones but redistribute it to the tissues where is worst to have it, so they proposed to take DMSA. According to them DMSA is a good lead chelator of the soft tissues (kidney, liver)

http://www.altmedrev.com/publications/16/2/109.pdf

some extracts

[...]

Thanks for this. Lead aside, i've a question about EDTA as read in the IE book. Roberta discuses on P.48 about chelator's re EDTA and Iron Overload, that in the IV form (especially with Vit-C) it can be dangerous. I'm not sure where i missed in the tread the difference between EDTA pill form and IV form, as the latter seems at odds with a sound treatment and the former associated with positive results. Before embarking on the pill form, just wanted to double check facts on these differences. This Dr. Paul Cutler gives good observation about iron overloaded patients being made more ill ("heart attacks, stroke or atrial fibrillation") under EDTA IV treatments.

Justin, in another thread, discusses IV's and EDTA a little here, yet am not understanding the mechanisms for the beneficial variance of the pill form.

The main difference is speed - while the iv application usually delivers 3g of EDTA into the bloodstream, the oral route is only delivering around 5 - 15% of the oral dose into your bloodstream, which is much, much less. However there is an added benefit to the oral formulation, namely the chelating of heavy metals in your gut BEFORE they are absorbed.

The iv application is mainly for people who are in a rush - say with symptoms of coronary heart disease or other symptomatic illnesses - while the oral treatment may require years of administration to attain the same effect. But if you are asymptomatic, oral is ok, because you have time ...

As to the dangers of the iv therapy - it's only dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. The problem with Disodium EDTA, if infused too rapidly is, that it decreases calcium levels in your blood, which can be life threatening. Having said that, from my knowledge, after millions of EDTA iv administrations there is only one recorded death due the a dilution error. The same cannot be said by any of the drugs that you buy even over the counter.

This complication is absent with the Calcium-Sodium-EDTA, which can be given as an iv push, however there is still some controversy whether or not Ca-Na-EDTA is as effective as 2Na-EDTA.
 

Alana

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Though my ferritin/saturation levels are normal, my husband's are close to 500/60 respectively! He was able to get a phlebotomy prescription from his doctor for once a month, but we also ordered some EDTA, and it arrived yesterday. So we are starting our rounds today. Will do 3 days with EDTA and 4 off, to begin with and see how it goes. My husband is going on July 11th for more blood tests, and we will see then what difference there will be in his iron/ferritin/saturation levels.

So day one, we overdid it a bit:

EDTA 2250 mg
ALA 200 mg (we will be doing 750 mg EDTA and 100 mg ALA from now on, to make it a smoother process)
half an hour before breakfast, and after breakfast some fish oils, cod liver oil, b-complex, 2000 mg vit C.

Tonight we will take 4 mineral capsules, each containing:

50 mg calcium citrate
50 mg magnesium malate (we also take extra magnesium before bed every night)
50 mcg selenium
2.5 mg zinc citrate
500 mcg copper citrate
25 mg potassium citrate
50 mcg molybdenum HVP chelate
1 mg silicon dioxide
100 mcg potassium iodine
25 mcg vanadium HVP chelate
2 mg manganese citrate
100 mcg chromium HVP chelate

Any thoughts/suggestions on our plan?

Though my ferriting/iron levels are good, I'll follow the EDTA protocol along with my husband for the general heavy metal detox. We never did the DSMA before either, so this sounds like a good place to start now.
 

Voyageur

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nicklebleu said:
The main difference is speed - while the iv application usually delivers 3g of EDTA into the bloodstream, the oral route is only delivering around 5 - 15% of the oral dose into your bloodstream, which is much, much less. However there is an added benefit to the oral formulation, namely the chelating of heavy metals in your gut BEFORE they are absorbed.

The iv application is mainly for people who are in a rush - say with symptoms of coronary heart disease or other symptomatic illnesses - while the oral treatment may require years of administration to attain the same effect. But if you are asymptomatic, oral is ok, because you have time ...

As to the dangers of the iv therapy - it's only dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. The problem with Disodium EDTA, if infused too rapidly is, that it decreases calcium levels in your blood, which can be life threatening. Having said that, from my knowledge, after millions of EDTA iv administrations there is only one recorded death due the a dilution error. The same cannot be said by any of the drugs that you buy even over the counter.

This complication is absent with the Calcium-Sodium-EDTA, which can be given as an iv push, however there is still some controversy whether or not Ca-Na-EDTA is as effective as 2Na-EDTA.

Thanks for this, i've a better understanding now.
 

Gawan

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Fwiw, I'm still feeling crappy in the morning and it doesn't matter with or without butter. At least I know now for certain that it wasn't a psychological cause and it is something with the body. At least and this still counts, my mood is lifted and this helps already a lot.

So some days ago I did a EDTA round again and one symtoms is getting kind of a flu.
 

Zadius Sky

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Hi,

On the 15th of June, I had my second blood donation. And, yesterday, I had my blood drawn for three tests: Ferritin, "Anemia Panel," and Comp. Metabolic Panel. The third test, I would like to see where I am, so to speak.

Just an hour ago, I got the results with no flags (meaning they're all within "normal ranges").

Dates of my ferritin tests:

15th of April: 140 ng/mL
15th of May: 99 ng/mL
24th of June: 60 ng/mL

Ferritin, Serum: 60 ng/mL

Anemia Profile A:

Iron Bind.Cap.(TIBC): 337 ug/dL
UIBC: 268 ug/dL
Iron, Serum: 69 ug/dL
Iron Saturation: 20%

CBC, Platelet Ct, and Diff:

WBC: 5.0 (x10E3/uL)
RBC: 4.96 (x10E6/uL)
Hemoglobin: 14.5 g/dL
Hematocrit: 43.9%
MCV: 89 fL
MCH: 29.2 pg
MCHC: 33.0 g/dL
RDW: 13.2 %
Platelets: 227 (x10E3/uL)
Neutrophils: 56%
Lymphs: 36%
Monocytes: 6%
Eos: 2%
Basos: 0%
Neutrophils (Absolute): 2.8 (x10E3/uL)
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.8 (x10E3/uL)
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.3 (x10E3/uL)
Eos (Absolute) 0.1 (x10E3/uL)
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 (x10E3/uL)
Immature Granulocytes: 0%
Immature Grans (Abs): 0.0 (x10E3/uL)
Reticulocyte Count: 1.9%

Comp. Metabolic Panel (14):

Glucose, Serum: 96 mg/dL
BUN: 17 mg/dL
Creatinine, Serum: 1.16 mg/dL
eGFR If NonAfricn Am: 83 mL/min/1.73
eGFR If Africn Am: 96 mL/min/1.73
BUN/Creatinine Ratio: 15
Sodium, Serum: 139 mmol/L
Potassium, Serum: 4.3 mmol/L
Chloride, Serum: 103 mmol/L
Carbon Dioxide, Total: 22 mmol/L
Calcium, Serum: 9.7 mg/dL
Protein, Total, Serum: 6.8 g/dL
Albumin, Serum: 4.8 g/dL
Globulin, Total: 2.0 g/dL
A/G Ratio: 2.4
Bilirubin, Total: 0.4 mg/dL
Alkaline Phosphatase, S: 50 IU/L
AST (SGOT): 14 IU/L
ALT (SGPT): 17

It's interesting to see my Iron, Serum level dropped from 176 to 69 in a month. I had been taking one capsule of EDTA per day (on an empty stomach with ALA) for three times a week (with no aftereffect experienced) since my last test. Think I should stop?

Shouldn't my Glucose, Serum level be at zero? It's at 96 mg/dL (it's the first time that I had my glucose checked), which made me think I've been consuming sugar lately without knowing about it (since I've only been eating meats with a few veggie - could be that Pork Rind thing). I'm gotta have to look into it (added: and going back to reading the health books on this).
 

Eboard10

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Zadius Sky said:
It's interesting to see my Iron, Serum level dropped from 176 to 69 in a month. I had been taking one capsule of EDTA per day (on an empty stomach with ALA) for three times a week (with no aftereffect experienced) since my last test. Think I should stop?

Shouldn't my Glucose, Serum level be at zero? It's at 96 mg/dL (it's the first time that I had my glucose checked), which made me think I've been consuming sugar lately without knowing about it (since I've only been eating meats with a few veggie - could be that Pork Rind thing). I'm gotta have to look into it (added: and going back to reading the health books on this).

That's quite an impressive reduction in iron!

From my understanding glucose levels should stay in the recommended range even during ketosis so you shouldn't worry about that. Very low glucose levels are actually bad as they would indicate signs of hypoglycemia. Just my 2 cents.
 
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