Historical Events Database - History

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Also, Theophanes didn't plagiarize Malalas. That's just how history was done in those days.

There's a great book that everyone going into this ought to read.

"Roman Historiography" by Andreas Mehl.

Well, scratch that: I just saw the price. I got it when it was way cheaper.

If I can't find a PDF of it, I'll scan it myself. Highway robbery! They should be ashamed.

Anyway, I made it to 180 AD and met up with Eboard's entries so I'm knocking off for the night!

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

I've kind of already done that. That's how the entries got in the document: because I painstakingly read through the texts and extracted them and transcribed them. Most of them are not easily available which was why I was putting in the full extracts.

But note: if an entry has multiple events, follow the rule to make multiple entries each in its proper category.

I'm trying to understand how this works. For instance, first event in the chronicle from the word document, Constantine's Comet:

312
Constantine’s Comet and destruction in the north of Italy.
Comets of the 4th century from Chinese records (Ho 1962) 295 (Halley), Great Comet), 300, 301, 302, 303, 305, 305, 315, 329, 336, 340, 343, 349, 358, 363, 374 (Halley), 374, 383, 390 (Great Comet).

Would I make an entry for Comet, year 312 and cite Ho 1962 as the source, location northern Italy... Then make a separate entry for each Comet and its year even though I don't know their locations? :/

I notice some of them could be already cited in the database from "Yeomans, Donald K, Comets: A Chronological History".

Or should I research the earliest source for the event cited in the chronology of the document and/or a specific source describing the event? For instance, I found this:

Space impact 'saved Christianity'

_http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3013146.stm

Did a meteor over central Italy in AD 312 change the course of Roman and Christian history?

A team of geologists believes it has found the incoming space rock's impact crater, and dating suggests its formation coincided with the celestial vision said to have converted a future Roman emperor to Christianity.

It was just before a decisive battle for control of Rome and the empire that Constantine saw a blazing light cross the sky and attributed his subsequent victory to divine help from a Christian God.

Constantine went on to consolidate his grip on power and ordered that persecution of Christians cease and their religion receive official status.

[...]

It was then that something strange happened. Eusebius - one of the Christian Church's early historians - relates the event in his Conversion of Constantine.

"...while he was thus praying with fervent entreaty, a most marvellous sign appeared to him from heaven, the account of which it might have been hard to believe had it been related by any other person.

"...about noon, when the day was already beginning to decline, he saw with his own eyes the trophy of a cross of light in the heavens, above the Sun, and bearing the inscription 'conquer by this'.

"At this sight he himself was struck with amazement, and his whole army also, which followed him on this expedition, and witnessed the miracle."

[...]

Like a nuclear blast

But what was the celestial event that converted Constantine and altered the course of history?

Jens Ormo, a Swedish geologist, and colleagues working in Italy believe Constantine witnessed a meteoroid impact.

The research team believes it has identified what remains of the impactor's crater.

It is the small, circular Cratere del Sirente in central Italy. It is clearly an impact crater, Ormo says, because its shape fits and it is also surrounded by numerous smaller, secondary craters, gouged out by ejected debris, as expected from impact models.

Radiocarbon dating puts the crater's formation at about the right time to have been witnessed by Constantine and there are magnetic anomalies detected around the secondary craters - possibly due to magnetic fragments from the meteorite.

According to Ormo, it would have struck the Earth with the force of a small nuclear bomb, perhaps a kiloton in yield. It would have looked like a nuclear blast, with a mushroom cloud and shockwaves.

It would have been quite an impressive sight and, if it really was what Constantine saw, could have turned the tide of the conflict.

But what would have happened if this chance event - perhaps as rare as once every few thousand years - had not occurred in Italy at that time?

Maxentius might have won the battle. Roman history would have been different and the struggling Christians might not have received state patronage.

The history of Christianity and the establishment of the popes in Rome might have been very different.

In this case, I would be searching for a book to cite these words of Eusebius, quote what he said, or see if there was an earlier author. Would details like the ones of this article be of interest?

Or should I just focus on the word document alone?

Sorry if I'm dense...

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I've kind of already done that. That's how the entries got in the document: because I painstakingly read through the texts and extracted them and transcribed them. Most of them are not easily available which was why I was putting in the full extracts.

But note: if an entry has multiple events, follow the rule to make multiple entries each in its proper category.

I'm trying to understand how this works. For instance, first event in the chronicle from the word document, Constantine's Comet:

312
Constantine’s Comet and destruction in the north of Italy.
Comets of the 4th century from Chinese records (Ho 1962) 295 (Halley), Great Comet), 300, 301, 302, 303, 305, 305, 315, 329, 336, 340, 343, 349, 358, 363, 374 (Halley), 374, 383, 390 (Great Comet).

Would I make an entry for Comet, year 312 and cite Ho 1962 as the source, location northern Italy... Then make a separate entry for each Comet and its year even though I don't know their locations? :/

I notice some of them could be already cited in the database from "Yeomans, Donald K, Comets: A Chronological History".

The only things that count as "entries" are the quoted texts from the historians themselves. My writing in that document is not considered an entry.

We are concerned with the descriptions of the disasters and events. Right now, I'm concentrating on getting Yeoman's comets in and Shijing is entering others that Yeomans doesn't have.

And yes, you can put in the article about the impact crater under the archaeological heading in the database. If you like, you can look for more. I think we have quite a few articles of that type relevant to our period, on the sott database, too.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

The only things that count as "entries" are the quoted texts from the historians themselves. My writing in that document is not considered an entry.

We are concerned with the descriptions of the disasters and events. Right now, I'm concentrating on getting Yeoman's comets in and Shijing is entering others that Yeomans doesn't have.

Okay, that makes sense.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Going to try to attach a book here:

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Well, that worked, so here's another!

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

And another:

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Another:

 

[Zadius Sky]

Re: Historical Events Database

It is okay when serveral records have the same source, but if you have several sources per record, add the other sources into the notes field.

I'm adding events from Laura's Chronicle of the Fall, and after adding Ammianus Marcellinus' account of the tsunami of 365, I noticed that Zadig added the same event from Theophanes the Confessor source but using a different category (earthquake versus tsunami) and no mention of Crete in Keyword or tsunami.

So, since he added this event first, I would add Ammianus's account with source info in "Other notes" of his event and delete mine? Just to clarify...

EDITED: Oh, just saw Laura's posts...

 

[Mal7]

Re: Historical Events Database

Also, Theophanes didn't plagiarize Malalas. That's just how history was done in those days.

There's a great book that everyone going into this ought to read.

"Roman Historiography" by Andreas Mehl.

The paperback edition is on Amazon at the following link for US$37.95 + shipping, or for US$32 to US$40 + shipping from third party sellers:

_http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1118785134/sr=8-1/qid=1392860645/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1392860645&seller=&sr=8-1

It is also available for US$35.42 with free worldwide shipping on _www.bookdepository.com

 

[Weller]

Re: Historical Events Database

May be a bit off-topic by now, but regarding the question about the Chinese description of a "guest star" trespassing the moon, Laura's earlier post of the chronology of Gregory of Tours and Paul the Deacon may hint at something similar:

When I was celebrating Mass on Saint Martin’s Eve, which is 11 November, a remarkable portent was seen in the middle of the night. A bright star was seen shining in the very centre of the moon, and other stars appeared close to the moon, above it and below.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Historical Events Database

I'm getting a little confused. Sorry about that. I'm reading Roman Antiquities of Dionysius of Halicarnassus. I'll continue to do that and try to get as much relevant data into the database as possible from it (so far, I've made no entries). But it sounds like there's a whole bunch of data that can be entered from Laura's attachments to couple of posts from yesterday? I can't use .docx files, but if it can be saved as .doc and attached to posts, I'll be able to use them and enter lots of data per day. It might be a good idea to save them as .doc files (up to Word 2007 - starting with Word 2007 and later versions, the file is .docx, as far as I know).

I'm not sure what's more convenient: 1) save/save as all Word documents to be attached as .doc (use save as and choose a version of Word older that 2007). 2) attach both .doc and .docx versions. I mention this if it's the case that the original is preferred to be .docx for some reason.

So, to clear up some of my confusion, is there anything that needs to be entered into the database quickly/as a priority from already extracted and compiled documents. Because if there is - and I can work with the document - I'll be able to do a whole lot of entries per day working 3 hours or more per day. Also, what is being done currently/recommended for entries not to be duplicated: using the search function on the form or look manually? As the entries accumulate, it will become harder and hard to find if something is entered already, and easier and easier to miss that it has been.

Any help and pointers will be appreciated, if I can spend more of the day entering things that are collected and ready to be entered, if it is a priority/rush, rather than spending most of the time on this project reading through Roman Antiquities which may not produce a single entry for days.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I'm getting a little confused. Sorry about that. I'm reading Roman Antiquities of Dionysius of Halicarnassus. I'll continue to do that and try to get as much relevant data into the database as possible from it (so far, I've made no entries). But it sounds like there's a whole bunch of data that can be entered from Laura's attachments to couple of posts from yesterday? I can't use .docx files, but if it can be saved as .doc and attached to posts, I'll be able to use them and enter lots of data per day. It might be a good idea to save them as .doc files (up to Word 2007 - starting with Word 2007 and later versions, the file is .docx, as far as I know).

Don't worry about it if you are working DH. The document only includes stuff from the 4th century AD forward for a couple hundred years. It was when I came to the anomaly about Gregory that I stopped writing in there and decided I had to go back to the beginning a do a much deeper dig.

<snip>

So, to clear up some of my confusion, is there anything that needs to be entered into the database quickly/as a priority from already extracted and compiled documents.

If so, it will be done fairly quickly.

Because if there is - and I can work with the document - I'll be able to do a whole lot of entries per day working 3 hours or more per day. Also, what is being done currently/recommended for entries not to be duplicated: using the search function on the form or look manually? As the entries accumulate, it will become harder and hard to find if something is entered already, and easier and easier to miss that it has been.

Just look for the year and check the entry. But if you are working DH, you are fine.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

It is okay when serveral records have the same source, but if you have several sources per record, add the other sources into the notes field.

I'm adding events from Laura's Chronicle of the Fall, and after adding Ammianus Marcellinus' account of the tsunami of 365, I noticed that Zadig added the same event from Theophanes the Confessor source but using a different category (earthquake versus tsunami) and no mention of Crete in Keyword or tsunami.

So, since he added this event first, I would add Ammianus's account with source info in "Other notes" of his event and delete mine? Just to clarify...

EDITED: Oh, just saw Laura's posts...

Right. Just add in the Ammianus text to the notes, change the source to Ammianus, and additional source to Theophanes in the notes. Double entries for this one: earthquake AND tsunami. It was such a huge event, you might even get more entries for it based on locations of major destruction. That would give it the weight it actually carries for that single year.

In some of these cases, you need to study your text a bit to make some decisions this way. We know that was one hell of an earthquake, so how do we make that SHOW in the record?

ADDED: You may find from this exactly how some of those ancient historians worked. They might separate the earthquake and tsunami and set them at different times. Or they might deliberately dissociate the tsunami from the earthquake to make it seem less disastrous.

Keep always in mind that there was an ongoing polemic at this time with the pagans trying to show that the christians were responsible for the evils of the time, and the christians doing a whole lot of covering up and apologetics.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Historical Events Database

I wasn't going to mention this, but having resumed reading Roman Antiquities by Doinysius of Halicarnassus, I came across this passage. Again, there's no date. But it seems to be referring to recently as of time of writing when he says "lately destroyed"?

At the distance of eighty stadia from Reate, on the Jurian way near the mountain Coritus, stood Corsula, lately destroyed: There, an island is to be seen, called Issa, surrounded with a lake; which island is said to have been inhabited by the Aborigines, without any artificial fortification, the inhabitants relying, for their security, on the bogs of the lake, instead of walls. Near to Issa, is Maruvium, at the end of the same lake, distant forty stadia from what they call The Seven waters. ...

Also how it was destroyed is not specified. I know it probably doesn't warrant entry into the database, but thought I'd put it here in case some other source mentions this with more details, we'll know that there's some confirmation in Dionysius of Halicarnassus. Does it sound to others like "lately destroyed" sounds like recent as of writing for Dionysius? I know he's 1st century BC, but don't know an exact date for writing Roman Antiquities either. Sorry if I'm just making noise, but this felt like it might be a clue to something with no real details and may be an event found in other sources. FWIW.

PS Strangely I haven't run into a single date yet in Roman Antiquities of DH, and not only in the couple of environmental or other destruction/calamity events - just ANY date in describing the most ancient places and events in Italy and Rome.