Historical Events Database - History

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

I missed an entire event from 365 (Crete, tsunami and earthquake already entered by Zadius Sky).

I'm currently working through Ammianus Marcellinus and was going back on this entry date to break it down more, but you've already got it. :)

Also, Gaby, I noticed you've been inputting Books # and Chapters # in "Derived from" field where it's reserved for when the author is citing another author and that author would be inputted there.

Roger that. As I'm re-checking, I'll make sure to fix that in all my entries. Thanks!

Added: I changed my keywords a bit to have more information (i.e. Drowning, Mad blasts, etc). I see you changed yours as well.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

1) Slightly after daybreak, and heralded by a thick succession of fiercely shaken thunderbolts,

1) Plasma event under Celestial Keywords: fiercely shaken thunderbolts

Laura's note: "I am curious about the succession of thunderbolts that Ammianus mentions since the peoples of the time usually made a clear distinction between thunderbolts and lightning, the former being things hurled from the sky."

I dunno if I would call it a plasma event since an earthquake and tsunami were the result. I'm inclined to think that this may have been an impact event, possibly in the Med. There's a study somewhere that says that parts of Crete uplifted something like 9 feet. I'll have to look for it to be sure.

Of course, an impact somewhere else could trigger an earthquake that could cause a tsunami. We might want to see if anything has turned up archaeologically in this time-frame.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

1) Slightly after daybreak, and heralded by a thick succession of fiercely shaken thunderbolts,

1) Plasma event under Celestial Keywords: fiercely shaken thunderbolts

Laura's note: "I am curious about the succession of thunderbolts that Ammianus mentions since the peoples of the time usually made a clear distinction between thunderbolts and lightning, the former being things hurled from the sky."

I dunno if I would call it a plasma event since an earthquake and tsunami were the result. I'm inclined to think that this may have been an impact event, possibly in the Med. There's a study somewhere that says that parts of Crete uplifted something like 9 feet. I'll have to look for it to be sure.

Of course, an impact somewhere else could trigger an earthquake that could cause a tsunami. We might want to see if anything has turned up archaeologically in this time-frame.

I had a quick scan and found:

_http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/130215/srep01285/full/srep01285.html

Based on geophysical surveys and sediment cores from the Ionian Sea we show that the 20–25 m thick megaturbidite known in the literature as Homogenite/Augias was triggered not by the Santorini caldera collapse but by the 365 AD Cretan earthquake/tsunami. An older similar megaturbidite was deposited after 14.590 ± 80 yr BP, implying a large recurrence time of such extreme sedimentary events in the Mediterranean Sea.

"Raised beach 2 km west of Paleochora showing wave-cut notch and sea caves uplifted by about 9 m during the earthquake"

That I could put under evidence for this event. I'll work on this tomorrow, see if there is more info or any other clues.

Added: An article said it was more than 8.5 in the scale of Richter

The 8.5+ magnitude, AD365 earthquake in Crete: Coastal uplift, topography changes, archaeological and historical signature
_http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618209001499

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

I dunno if I would call it a plasma event since an earthquake and tsunami were the result. I'm inclined to think that this may have been an impact event, possibly in the Med. There's a study somewhere that says that parts of Crete uplifted something like 9 feet. I'll have to look for it to be sure.

Of course, an impact somewhere else could trigger an earthquake that could cause a tsunami. We might want to see if anything has turned up archaeologically in this time-frame.

That I could put under evidence for this event. I'll work on this tomorrow, see if there is more info or any other clues.

Wikipedia has some clues: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_tsunamis

365 AD: Alexandria, Eastern Mediterranean
Main article: 365 Crete earthquake

In the morning of July 21, 365 AD, an earthquake of great magnitude caused a huge tsunami more than 100 feet (30 m) high. It devastated Alexandria and the eastern shores of the Mediterranean, killing thousands and hurling ships nearly two miles inland.[12][13] The Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus (Res Gestae 26.10.15–19) describes in his vivid account the typical sequence of the tsunami including an incipient earthquake, the sudden retreat of the sea and a following gigantic wave:

Slightly after daybreak, and heralded by a thick succession of fiercely shaken thunderbolts, the solidity of the whole earth was made to shake and shudder, and the sea was driven away, its waves were rolled back, and it disappeared, so that the abyss of the depths was uncovered and many-shaped varieties of sea-creatures were seen stuck in the slime; the great wastes of those valleys and mountains, which the very creation had dismissed beneath the vast whirlpools, at that moment, as it was given to be believed, looked up at the sun's rays. Many ships, then, were stranded as if on dry land, and people wandered at will about the paltry remains of the waters to collect fish and the like in their hands; then the roaring sea as if insulted by its repulse rises back in turn, and through the teeming shoals dashed itself violently on islands and extensive tracts of the mainland, and flattened innumerable buildings in towns or wherever they were found. Thus in the raging conflict of the elements, the face of the earth was changed to reveal wondrous sights. For the mass of waters returning when least expected killed many thousands by drowning, and with the tides whipped up to a height as they rushed back, some ships, after the anger of the watery element had grown old, were seen to have sunk, and the bodies of people killed in shipwrecks lay there, faces up or down. Other huge ships, thrust out by the mad blasts, perched on the roofs of houses, as happened at Alexandria, and others were hurled nearly two miles from the shore, like the Laconian vessel near the town of Methone which I saw when I passed by, yawning apart from long decay.[12]

The tsunami in 365 AD was so devastating that the anniversary of the disaster was still commemorated annually at the end of the 6th century in Alexandria as a "day of horror."[14]

Researchers at the University of Cambridge recently carbon dated corals on the coast of Crete which were lifted 10 metres and clear of the water in one massive push. This indicates that the tsunami of 365 AD was generated by an earthquake in a steep fault in the Hellenic trench near Crete. The scientists estimate that such a large uplift is only likely to occur once in 5,000 years; however, the other segments of the fault could slip on a similar scale – and could happen every 800 years or so. It is unsure whether "one of the contiguous patches might slip in the future."[15]

Also here: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/365_Crete_earthquake

Hope his helps a bit.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

It was definitely a doozie. And the description of what came before gives us a hint as to its cause.

Thunderbolts needs some thought on this one. There could have been a plasma event from a close-passing comet/asteroid accompanied by a series of Tunguska-like events. I mean, just watch those Chelyabinsk videos and amplify the event and you'll have an idea of what those people witnessed. There are a few records that you'll come across that talk about the horrible "wind" which seems to have been a shock wave. Maybe the ancients were describing shock waves when they mentioned "thunderbolts"? And obviously, there were plasma events that had the typical form of the "thunderbolts" pictured in the hands of the various gods representing Jupiter/Zeus types.

So, I dunno. Maybe we need a sub-category for "Tunguska-like event"?

 

[shijing]

Re: Historical Events Database

I just noticed these two entries (358 & 397) by Laura and Shijing respectively:

[...]

One appears to be a duplicate.

Thanks Zadius Sky -- they're actually listed separately in the primary source that I'm using, even though they're both derived from Ho 126. Still, Yeomans (1991) seems to conflate them (on the assumption that the bushy star became a broom star and wasn't a separate entity), so I may merge them for now.

 

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

On that night there appeared in the heavens a star which is called a comet.

Can we have a bit more of the excerpt around that? On WHAT night? What else happened?

Nothing is known. It's between a dream by Maurice about Jesus Christ and a military campaign. The sentence is completely alone. Between January and September 602.

In this year, in the month of November, 1 indiction 5, the emperor Maurice joined in marriage his son Theodosios to the daughter of the patrician Germanus. They were crowned by Kyriakos, the patri-arch of Constantinople. On 11 January, Dometianus, bishop of Melitene and a relative of the emperor, died and was buried in the church of the Holy Apostles by the patriarch Kyriakos and honoured with funeral rites by the whole Senate.

The emperor reappointed and sent out his brother Peter as general of Thrace. For he had heard that the hordes of the barbarians, with Apsech as general, had congregated round the Cataracts. Peter sent an envoy to Apsech to discuss peace, but Apsech attempted to capture the Cataracts from the Romans. The Chagan marched on Constantiola. The Romans returned to Thrace and came to Adrianople. The emperor, having learned that the Chagan was moving against Byzantium, wrote to Peter to return to the Ister and sent Bonosos, the skribon, with ships to transport the troops across the river. Peter, having sent out his second-in-command Goudoues across the Ister, took many captives. Having learned this, the Chagan sent out Apsech with a host to destroy the tribe of the Antai for their support of the Romans. When this happened, a portion of the barbarians went over to the Romans.

Maurice, who had been reflecting inwardly and knew that nothing escapes the notice of God, but that He requites everyone according to his deeds, and having considered his wrongdoing in not having ransomed the captives, judged that it was better to atone for his sin in this life rather than in the next; and having made supplications in writing, sent them to all the patriarchal thrones and to all communities subject to him, and to the monasteries, both those in the desert and in Jerusalem, and to the lavras, with gifts of money and candles and incense, so that they would pray for him so that he might make atonement here and not in the time that is to come. He was even offended with Philippikos, his brother-in-law, because his name began with the letter Phi.

But Philippikos swore in various ways that his fealty to Maurice was untainted and that he had not plotted against him. While Maurice was beseeching God to have mercy on his soul, one night, as he slept, he had a vision that he was standing at the Bronze Gate of the palace by the image of the Saviour and a (very great) crowd was beside him. And a voice came from the portrait of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, saying, 'Bring forward Maurice.' And the ministers of justice took hold of him and placed him on the purple disc that is there. And the divine voice said to him, 'Where do you wish that I requite you? Here or in the world to come?' To these words he replied, 'Merciful Lord and righteous judge, here preferably and not in the world to come.' And the divine voice ordered that Maurice and his wife (Constantina) and their children and all their kinsmen be given over to the soldier Phokas.

So Maurice woke up and having called his parakoimomenos sent him to his brother-in-law Philippikos with orders to bring him to the emperor with all speed. The parakoimomenos departed and summoned him. Philippikos, on ris-ing, summoned his wife and embraced her, saying 'Farewell, you will not see me again.' She cried out in a loud voice with lamentations and said to the paiakoimomenos, 'I beseech you, by God, what is the matter that he wants him at this hour?' The parakoimomenos swore that he did not know and said, 'The emperor suddenly awoke from his sleep and dispatched me.

Philippikos asked to receive communion and after this went to the emperor. His wife Gordia lay on the ground crying, weeping, and praying to God. On entering the imperial bedchamber, Philippikos threw himself at the emperor's feet. The emperor said to him, 'Forgive me for the sake of God for the wrong I did you. For until now I have been angry with you.' And after ordering the parakoimomenos to leave, he stood up and fell at Philippikos' feet, saying, 'Forgive me, for I know for certain that you did no wrong to me. But tell me, do you know in your tagmata a certain soldier named Phokas?'

After reflecting, Philippikos replied, 'I do know one who was sent a little while ago as a representative of the army and who spoke against your authority.' The emperor asked, 'Of what character is he?' Philippikos replied, 'Rebellious, insolent, and cowardly.' Then Maurice said, 'If he is a coward, then he is also a murderer.' And he explained to Philippikos the revelation of the dream.

On that night there appeared in the heavens a star which is called a comet.

On the following day there returned the magistrianus who had been sent to the holy fathers in the desert, bearing their reply which was that, 'God, having accepted your repentance, saves your soul and enrols you and your whole family among the saints, but you will be driven from your thrOne in disgrace and dan-ger.' When he heard this, Maurice glorified God greatly

Accordingly, when the season of autumn arrived, and the emperor Maurice had ordered Peter to make the army winter in the territory of the Sklavini, the Romans objected and refused to do it because of the exhaustion of their horses, the great amount of booty that they were holding, and the mass of barbarians scattered about the countryside, and so they plotted a rebellion…

zadig, in entry 587, the year is given as 600. The text says:

The fifth year of the reign of Theodoric, we saw in the West the same phenomena that had appeared the previous year : globes of fire traversing the sky, and a lot of spears of fire

WHICH Theodoric was this? If it was Theodoric the Great, there is a problem with the date:

It’s Thierry II or Theodoric II, king of Burgondy (595-613).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theuderic_II

Zadig, I've deleted a handful of your entries concerning battles of Charlemagne and coronation of Louis, etc.

I didn’t make the entries for the Life of Charlemagne.

Zadig, entries 568 and 564 appear to be the same event though they are from different sources and give different dates.

John of Nikiû gives 583 and Agapius gives 588. I think we should take the date of the earliest author, and add the text of the second to the same event with a note that he gives a different date for what is obviously the same event.

(...)
This is an example of WHY you must keep your events in your head so that when you come across the next one that is similar, you stop, take a deeper look and understand the nature of the text and what kind of flim-flam has taken place.

But, how can I know if it’s really the same event? There are so many possibilities in this gap between 580-590.

For example, if the Chron Pasch talks about a comet 626 AD appearing during 4 days in the west and Agapius talks about a comet in the west but 628/629 AD, I can say that it's the same thing because there is almost nothing between 610 and 632 except a plague, dust/veil event and an earthquake.

To come back to Agapius/Nikiu, you say that 583 and 588 are the same, why not 581 and 583 ?

Agappius 581 AD said :

In this year, there was a violent earthquake in Antioch which overthrew two towers on the walls. In the same year, the summer was very rainy and very cold. The atmosphere tarnished and was darkened; many locusts appeared which devoured the harvest of grain, grasses and vegetables. There was a great plague.

Nikiu 583 AD:

And likewise in the reign of this Maurice, the city of Antioch was troubled by a great earthquake and laid low. Now it had been laid low seven times. And many roads (?) in the east were destroyed, and islands, and an innumerable multitude of men through the earthquake. And likewise at that time the sun was eclipsed at the fifth hour of the day, and the light of the stars appeared.

Maybe the earthquake of Agappius in 581 AD is also the same than Nikiu in 583, not in 588, because they talk about an earthquake and an dust veil event. Or 581-583 and 588 AD are the same events, or completely different events.

Another example :

You said :

Now, I am a little bit suspicious of this account because there are certain similarities between it and an account told by Ammianus Marcellinus about a great earthquake and tsunami on the 21st of July 365 AD. This latter quake and tsunami were said to have occurred on the 9th of July, 551. What are the chances of two earthquakes occurring in July, specifically, causing devastating tsunamis? Okay, it can happen, but it still caught my attention.

So, knowing that two floods came in the middle of the night at two relatively distant locations, that is, Egypt and Cilicia, should have excited your curiosity about this strange coincidence. There is no mention of any prolonged rain, so what the heck is going on?

If I understand you, I must consider these two coincidences ?

The story of the flood of 582 AD by Nikiu is strangely similar to the event of 525 by Theophanes/Malalas:

Nikiu flood 582 AD Cilicia:

And likewise in the reign of the emperor Maurice there came a flood in the night on the east of the city of Esna, which is the capital of Rif, while the inhabitants were asleep, and it destroyed many houses together with their inhabitants, and it carried them off and submerged them in the river. And great havoc was wrought in the city and in (its) inhabitants. And likewise in the city of Tarsus in Cilicia the same befell; for the river, named Euphrates, which flows near it, rose at midnight and submerged one division of the city, named Antinoaea, and destroyed many buildings. And a stone tablet was found in the river with the inscription: 'This river will destroy many of the buildings of the city.'

Theophanes and Malalas earthquake/flood 525 AD in Osrhoene near Cilicia:

In this year Anazarbos, the metropolis of Second Cilicia, suffered from a most terrifying earthquake, its governor being Kalliopios, son of Eirenaios, and the entire city collapsed. Justin raised it up again and named it Justinoupolis. In the same year Edessa, a large and famous city, the metropolis of the province of Osrhoene, was engulfed through divine anger by the waters of its river. For the river Skirtos which passes through the midst of it, provides it with great wealth and enjoyment. At that time, being in full flood like a sea, it dragged away the houses along with their inhabitants and submerged them. There is a story current among those who were saved that the same river had destroyed the city on other occasions but not to the same degree. After the floods had ended, a stone tablet was found on the bank of the river inscribed with the following message in hieroglyphic lettering: 'The river Skirtos will skittishly skittle the citizens.'

In that year Edessa, a great. city in the province of Osrhoene, was engulfed one evening by the wrath of God in the form of river-water, from the river known as Skirtos which flows through the middle of the city. The inhabitants perished together with their houses. The survivors and inhabitants of the city used to say that the river had flooded this city on another occasion but had not caused such destruction. "For we have learned", they said, "that the same thing has happened on other occasions". After the anger had ceased, there was found by the buildings near the river, when they were having their foundations cleaned out, a large stone tablet, on which was carved the following inscription, "The river Skirtos (Leaper) will leap terrible leapings for the citizens".

The stories/places are almost the same, so maybe Nikiu borrowed the story from Malalas and the flood of 582 in Cilicia never happened, and it’s a doubloon of the event of 525. Or not, the floods are completely different. Or he borrowed only the story. Or it's just a coincidence. How can I know ? There is no other sources about this flood.

Text covered in entries 538, 539, 540:

(…)
Obviously, this text deserves more thought and attention.

Entries 546 and 547 should probably have a third entry. Here's the text:

Well, obviously, there should be TWO entries for this text, one for the flood in Esna, Egypt, and a second one for the flood in Tarsus, Cilicia.

BUT, we need an "unusual fire" event to wrap it up since it is obvious that the "fire in the sky" ignited a fire on the earth which produced the dust veil and ashes.

Ok. It’s because I collected data by theme, e.g. 2 earthquakes = 1 entry earthquake.

 

[stellar]

Re: Historical Events Database

I could be way off base but a super volcano eruption comes to mind as something that could dramatically raise land, cause tsunamis in more than one location, sea or lake, and I think thunderbolts are not out of the question, as they have been recorded emanating from active volcanoes. FWITW

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

[...] I'm inclined to think that this may have been an impact event, possibly in the Med.[...]

[...]The 8.5+ magnitude, AD365 earthquake in Crete: Coastal uplift, topography changes, archaeological and historical signature
_http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618209001499

The above article might have some clues:

_http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618209001499

An up to 9 m uplift of western Crete, a cluster of coastal uplifts in the East Mediterranean radiocarbon dated approximately ∼1500 BP, as well as historical and archaeological data are evidence for major, although poorly documented seismic destruction on a nearly-Mediterranean scale in the 4th to 5th c. AD, including the destruction of the Nile Delta in Egypt by a tsunami in AD365. These data represent parts of a puzzle for historians, archaeologists, geologists and seismologists.

Detailed analysis of geological, historical and archaeological data, including precise numismatic evidence, permits recognition of a major earthquake in Crete responsible for coastal uplift at AD365. Elastic dislocation analysis of coastal uplift data reveals that this earthquake was associated with a reverse fault offshore of southwestern Crete, that its minimum magnitude was 8.5, and that this model is consistent with the available seismological and large-scale tectonic data. Despite its magnitude, this earthquake cannot have produced the necessary short-period, high-energy waves which are necessary to explain the seismic damage which occurred circa AD365 in a very broad region, from Sicily to Cyprus and Libya. Hence, the AD365 earthquake sequence included at least two other major events, with epicentres close to Cyprus and Sicily.

Although significant changes in the coastal morphology, widespread destruction, and a high human death toll occurred, the AD365 Crete earthquake was not responsible for any major cultural change. It occurred during the transition from the Roman to the Christian period, characterized by vast, luxurious villas and modest dwellings on Crete, respectively.

Can someone with a scholar access provide the article above? I don't have access to Uni libraries anymore. And this could be a good source for archaeological evidence for the database.

It was definitely a doozie. And the description of what came before gives us a hint as to its cause.

Thunderbolts needs some thought on this one. There could have been a plasma event from a close-passing comet/asteroid accompanied by a series of Tunguska-like events. I mean, just watch those Chelyabinsk videos and amplify the event and you'll have an idea of what those people witnessed. There are a few records that you'll come across that talk about the horrible "wind" which seems to have been a shock wave. Maybe the ancients were describing shock waves when they mentioned "thunderbolts"? And obviously, there were plasma events that had the typical form of the "thunderbolts" pictured in the hands of the various gods representing Jupiter/Zeus types.

So, I dunno. Maybe we need a sub-category for "Tunguska-like event"?

That sounds like a good solution.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Historical Events Database

Can someone with a scholar access provide the article above? I don't have access to Uni libraries anymore. And this could be a good source for archaeological evidence for the database.

See attachment :)

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

Can someone with a scholar access provide the article above? I don't have access to Uni libraries anymore. And this could be a good source for archaeological evidence for the database.

See attachment :)

Thank you! And it has photos! :D

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

On that night there appeared in the heavens a star which is called a comet.

Can we have a bit more of the excerpt around that? On WHAT night? What else happened?

Nothing is known. It's between a dream by Maurice about Jesus Christ and a military campaign. The sentence is completely alone. Between January and September 602.

Oh boy. Well, it would help to have the Maurice connection in the text. That whole business about the voice and announcement that Phocas was going to take the life of Maurice and family is obviously a bogus cover-up for something.

In this year, in the month of November, 1 indiction 5, the emperor Maurice joined in marriage his son Theodosios to the daughter of the patrician Germanus. They were crowned by Kyriakos, the patri-arch of Constantinople. On 11 January, Dometianus, bishop of Melitene and a relative of the emperor, died and was buried in the church of the Holy Apostles by the patriarch Kyriakos and honoured with funeral rites by the whole Senate.

The emperor reappointed and sent out his brother Peter as general of Thrace. For he had heard that the hordes of the barbarians, with Apsech as general, had congregated round the Cataracts. Peter sent an envoy to Apsech to discuss peace, but Apsech attempted to capture the Cataracts from the Romans. The Chagan marched on Constantiola. The Romans returned to Thrace and came to Adrianople. The emperor, having learned that the Chagan was moving against Byzantium, wrote to Peter to return to the Ister and sent Bonosos, the skribon, with ships to transport the troops across the river. Peter, having sent out his second-in-command Goudoues across the Ister, took many captives. Having learned this, the Chagan sent out Apsech with a host to destroy the tribe of the Antai for their support of the Romans. When this happened, a portion of the barbarians went over to the Romans.

Maurice, who had been reflecting inwardly and knew that nothing escapes the notice of God, but that He requites everyone according to his deeds, and having considered his wrongdoing in not having ransomed the captives, judged that it was better to atone for his sin in this life rather than in the next; and having made supplications in writing, sent them to all the patriarchal thrones and to all communities subject to him, and to the monasteries, both those in the desert and in Jerusalem, and to the lavras, with gifts of money and candles and incense, so that they would pray for him so that he might make atonement here and not in the time that is to come. He was even offended with Philippikos, his brother-in-law, because his name began with the letter Phi.

But Philippikos swore in various ways that his fealty to Maurice was untainted and that he had not plotted against him. While Maurice was beseeching God to have mercy on his soul, one night, as he slept, he had a vision that he was standing at the Bronze Gate of the palace by the image of the Saviour and a (very great) crowd was beside him. And a voice came from the portrait of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, saying, 'Bring forward Maurice.' And the ministers of justice took hold of him and placed him on the purple disc that is there. And the divine voice said to him, 'Where do you wish that I requite you? Here or in the world to come?' To these words he replied, 'Merciful Lord and righteous judge, here preferably and not in the world to come.' And the divine voice ordered that Maurice and his wife (Constantina) and their children and all their kinsmen be given over to the soldier Phokas.

So Maurice woke up and having called his parakoimomenos sent him to his brother-in-law Philippikos with orders to bring him to the emperor with all speed. The parakoimomenos departed and summoned him. Philippikos, on ris-ing, summoned his wife and embraced her, saying 'Farewell, you will not see me again.' She cried out in a loud voice with lamentations and said to the paiakoimomenos, 'I beseech you, by God, what is the matter that he wants him at this hour?' The parakoimomenos swore that he did not know and said, 'The emperor suddenly awoke from his sleep and dispatched me.

Philippikos asked to receive communion and after this went to the emperor. His wife Gordia lay on the ground crying, weeping, and praying to God. On entering the imperial bedchamber, Philippikos threw himself at the emperor's feet. The emperor said to him, 'Forgive me for the sake of God for the wrong I did you. For until now I have been angry with you.' And after ordering the parakoimomenos to leave, he stood up and fell at Philippikos' feet, saying, 'Forgive me, for I know for certain that you did no wrong to me. But tell me, do you know in your tagmata a certain soldier named Phokas?'

After reflecting, Philippikos replied, 'I do know one who was sent a little while ago as a representative of the army and who spoke against your authority.' The emperor asked, 'Of what character is he?' Philippikos replied, 'Rebellious, insolent, and cowardly.' Then Maurice said, 'If he is a coward, then he is also a murderer.' And he explained to Philippikos the revelation of the dream.

On that night there appeared in the heavens a star which is called a comet.

On the following day there returned the magistrianus who had been sent to the holy fathers in the desert, bearing their reply which was that, 'God, having accepted your repentance, saves your soul and enrols you and your whole family among the saints, but you will be driven from your thrOne in disgrace and dan-ger.' When he heard this, Maurice glorified God greatly

Accordingly, when the season of autumn arrived, and the emperor Maurice had ordered Peter to make the army winter in the territory of the Sklavini, the Romans objected and refused to do it because of the exhaustion of their horses, the great amount of booty that they were holding, and the mass of barbarians scattered about the countryside, and so they plotted a rebellion…

zadig, in entry 587, the year is given as 600. The text says:

The fifth year of the reign of Theodoric, we saw in the West the same phenomena that had appeared the previous year : globes of fire traversing the sky, and a lot of spears of fire

WHICH Theodoric was this? If it was Theodoric the Great, there is a problem with the date:

It’s Thierry II or Theodoric II, king of Burgondy (595-613).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theuderic_II

Okay, need that bit of info.

Zadig, I've deleted a handful of your entries concerning battles of Charlemagne and coronation of Louis, etc.

I didn’t make the entries for the Life of Charlemagne.

Sorry. I guess that was Zadiussky. Both Zs and me reading fast.

Zadig, entries 568 and 564 appear to be the same event though they are from different sources and give different dates.

John of Nikiû gives 583 and Agapius gives 588. I think we should take the date of the earliest author, and add the text of the second to the same event with a note that he gives a different date for what is obviously the same event.

(...)
This is an example of WHY you must keep your events in your head so that when you come across the next one that is similar, you stop, take a deeper look and understand the nature of the text and what kind of flim-flam has taken place.

But, how can I know if it’s really the same event? There are so many possibilities in this gap between 580-590.

This is true. That's why we go to the earliest authors, closest to the time, and try to match things. It's also helpful to know how these guys copied, mis-copied, glossed, and emended texts. For example, it's useful to know who the Chronicon used:

The Chronicon Paschale follows earlier chronicles. For the years 600 to 627 the author writes as a contemporary historian - that is, through the last years of emperor Maurice, the reign of Phocas, and the first seventeen years of the reign of Heraclius.

The "Chronicon Paschale" is a huge compilation, attempting a chronological list of events from the creation of Adam. The principal manuscript, the 10th-century Codex Vaticanus græcus 1941, is damaged at the beginning and end and stops short at 627. The Chronicle proper is preceded by an introduction containing reflections on Christian chronology and on the calculation of the Paschal (Easter) cycle. The so-called 'Byzantine' or 'Roman' era (which continued in use in Greek Orthodox Christianity until the end of Turkish rule as the 'Julian calendar') was adopted in the Chronicum as the foundation of chronology; in accordance with which the date of the creation is given as the 21 March 5507.

The author identifies himself as a contemporary of the Emperor Heraclius (610-641), and was possibly a cleric attached to the suite of the œcumenical Patriarch Sergius. The work was probably written during the last ten years of the reign of Heraclius.

The chief authorities used were: Sextus Julius Africanus; the consular Fasti; the Chronicle and Church History of Eusebius; John Malalas; the Acta Martyrum; the treatise of Epiphanius, bishop of Constantia (the old Salamis) in Cyprus (fl. 4th century), on Weights and Measures.

Agapius son of Constantine (arabised as Mahbūb ibn-Qūṣṭānṭīn) (d.941-2 AD) was a 10th-century Arabic Christian writer, best known for his lengthy Kitab al-'Unwan (Book of headings or History). He was the Melkite bishop of Manbij (Mabbug, Hierapolis Bambyce)....

For the early history of Christianity, Agapius made use uncritically of apocryphal and legendary materials. For the following secular and ecclesiastical history, he relied on Syriac sources, in particular the World Chronicle of the Maronite historian Theophilus of Edessa (d. 785) for the end of the Ummayad period and the beginning of the Abbasids. He made use of Eusebius's Church History only through an intermediary compilation of short extracts. This he supplements from other sources. He gives an otherwise unknown fragment of Papias; and a list of Eastern Metropolitans. He uses the lost History of Bardaisan, but many of his sources remain unknown.

For example, if the Chron Pasch talks about a comet 626 AD appearing during 4 days in the west and Agapius talks about a comet in the west but 628/629 AD, I can say that it's the same thing because there is almost nothing between 610 and 632 except a plague, dust/veil event and an earthquake.

Well, you know that Agapius is much later and unless there is clear evidence that he is talking about a different event, and they are so close, and if there are other characteristics of the text that are similar, then I would put them together. BUT, if there are no other characteristics that connect them - evidence of the copyists distraction - then I would separate them.

To come back to Agapius/Nikiu, you say that 583 and 588 are the same, why not 581 and 583 ?

Agappius 581 AD said :

In this year, there was a violent earthquake in Antioch which overthrew two towers on the walls. In the same year, the summer was very rainy and very cold. The atmosphere tarnished and was darkened; many locusts appeared which devoured the harvest of grain, grasses and vegetables. There was a great plague.

Nikiu 583 AD:

And likewise in the reign of this Maurice, the city of Antioch was troubled by a great earthquake and laid low. Now it had been laid low seven times. And many roads (?) in the east were destroyed, and islands, and an innumerable multitude of men through the earthquake. And likewise at that time the sun was eclipsed at the fifth hour of the day, and the light of the stars appeared.

Maybe the earthquake of Agappius in 581 AD is also the same than Nikiu in 583, not in 588, because they talk about an earthquake and an dust veil event. Or 581-583 and 588 AD are the same events, or completely different events.

That's possible. What I usually do is put the texts into side-by-side columns and see how many things match, what has been omitted, what has be separated off and put into another year. This was a common factor among the Christian apologists. They would separate elements of a single event, spread it over a couple of years, or put it ten years apart, etc. This is how, I think, the chronology became unnaturally extended.

So, if there is a series of events that seems similar, paste them in a post here, let us all look at them, think about them, and see if we can't figure out a way to handle them.

Another example :

You said :

Now, I am a little bit suspicious of this account because there are certain similarities between it and an account told by Ammianus Marcellinus about a great earthquake and tsunami on the 21st of July 365 AD. This latter quake and tsunami were said to have occurred on the 9th of July, 551. What are the chances of two earthquakes occurring in July, specifically, causing devastating tsunamis? Okay, it can happen, but it still caught my attention.

So, knowing that two floods came in the middle of the night at two relatively distant locations, that is, Egypt and Cilicia, should have excited your curiosity about this strange coincidence. There is no mention of any prolonged rain, so what the heck is going on?

If I understand you, I must consider these two coincidences ?

Yes, at least to the extent of let's discuss it. Was it a geological water table event? Mudslides? Tidal event by the close passage of an electrically charged body? OR, did the chronicle just fail to mention the rain or that the snow was melting in the mountains upstream? Knowing how those guys worked even if they were NOT up to something, makes me suspicious that they are covering something up.

The story of the flood of 582 AD by Nikiu is strangely similar to the event of 525 by Theophanes/Malalas:

Nikiu flood 582 AD Cilicia:

And likewise in the reign of the emperor Maurice there came a flood in the night on the east of the city of Esna, which is the capital of Rif, while the inhabitants were asleep, and it destroyed many houses together with their inhabitants, and it carried them off and submerged them in the river. And great havoc was wrought in the city and in (its) inhabitants. And likewise in the city of Tarsus in Cilicia the same befell; for the river, named Euphrates, which flows near it, rose at midnight and submerged one division of the city, named Antinoaea, and destroyed many buildings. And a stone tablet was found in the river with the inscription: 'This river will destroy many of the buildings of the city.'

Theophanes and Malalas earthquake/flood 525 AD in Osrhoene near Cilicia:

In this year Anazarbos, the metropolis of Second Cilicia, suffered from a most terrifying earthquake, its governor being Kalliopios, son of Eirenaios, and the entire city collapsed. Justin raised it up again and named it Justinoupolis. In the same year Edessa, a large and famous city, the metropolis of the province of Osrhoene, was engulfed through divine anger by the waters of its river. For the river Skirtos which passes through the midst of it, provides it with great wealth and enjoyment. At that time, being in full flood like a sea, it dragged away the houses along with their inhabitants and submerged them. There is a story current among those who were saved that the same river had destroyed the city on other occasions but not to the same degree. After the floods had ended, a stone tablet was found on the bank of the river inscribed with the following message in hieroglyphic lettering: 'The river Skirtos will skittishly skittle the citizens.'

In that year Edessa, a great. city in the province of Osrhoene, was engulfed one evening by the wrath of God in the form of river-water, from the river known as Skirtos which flows through the middle of the city. The inhabitants perished together with their houses. The survivors and inhabitants of the city used to say that the river had flooded this city on another occasion but had not caused such destruction. "For we have learned", they said, "that the same thing has happened on other occasions". After the anger had ceased, there was found by the buildings near the river, when they were having their foundations cleaned out, a large stone tablet, on which was carved the following inscription, "The river Skirtos (Leaper) will leap terrible leapings for the citizens".

The stories/places are almost the same, so maybe Nikiu borrowed the story from Malalas and the flood of 582 in Cilicia never happened, and it’s a doubloon of the event of 525. Or not, the floods are completely different. Or he borrowed only the story. Or it's just a coincidence. How can I know ? There is no other sources about this flood.

That's why we need to discuss it. It is possible that multiple floods happened, but that stories were borrowed for their dramatic element. But in the case of the above, I suspect a single event was behind the floods IF they happened in multiple places, and there was a cover-up going on.

Text covered in entries 538, 539, 540:

(…)
Obviously, this text deserves more thought and attention.

Entries 546 and 547 should probably have a third entry. Here's the text:

Well, obviously, there should be TWO entries for this text, one for the flood in Esna, Egypt, and a second one for the flood in Tarsus, Cilicia.

BUT, we need an "unusual fire" event to wrap it up since it is obvious that the "fire in the sky" ignited a fire on the earth which produced the dust veil and ashes.

Ok. It’s because I collected data by theme, e.g. 2 earthquakes = 1 entry earthquake.

Now you are getting some idea of what I've been going through for the past couple of years, reading these chronicles and realizing that there is a lot of funny business. It's maddening sometimes.

It helps to go through the texts carefully and get a feeling for the author so you can better know what he is up to. And it is in doing this that we can all learn to sharpen our perceptions.

I'm going to make a table from my reading of Paul the Deacon. He's got some very interesting things in there, but he's obviously doing doublets and making stuff up, borrowing from everywhere, and all in the interests of creating Christian "history", much of which never happened. He makes so many mistakes in his chronology that even the translator has a ton of footnotes pointing it out. So I know that I can't rely on his dates. I can also see that he has separated events. One thing that is interesting is a comment he made towards the end about seeing a comet and, "naturally, plague followed" as though everyone understood that plagues followed comets. Well, we know that they don't follow comets unless those comets interact with our atmosphere, so he's leaving something out there.

Anyway, I'll make the table and attach it to a post so we can all take a look at it and see if we can figure out the best way to date his events: I'm hoping that there will be matching events from other chroniclers. However, I'm not holding out a LOT of hope because I know that the individuals who copied and preserved the texts were a very small group and they were editing like crazy. But, they never counted on computers and text search capabilities, so maybe we can figure it out.

 

[Zadius Sky]

Re: Historical Events Database

Sorry. I guess that was Zadiussky. Both Zs and me reading fast.

I think that was Dirgni (I only added one from Einhard on fireballs):

I finished Einhard's "The Life of Charlemagne" and included all entries into Historical Events Database. I hope the wars are not too much.

 

[Eboard10]

Re: Historical Events Database

I'm currently going through Dio Cassius' Roman History Books 71-80 and found an interesting quote that I'd like some feedback on before adding to the database. It refers to a battle that took place in 174 AD between the Romans led by Marcus Aurelius and the Quadi, a germanic tribe:

So Marcus subdued the Marcomani and the lazyges after many hard struggles and dangers. A great war against the people called the Quadi also fell to his lot and it was his good fortune to win an unexpected victory, or rather it was vouchsafed him by Heaven. For when the Romans were in peril in the course of the battle, the divine power saved them in a most unexpected manner. The Quadi had surrounded them at a spot favourable for their purpose and the Romans were fighting valiantly with their shields locked together ; then the barbarians ceased fighting, expecting to capture them easily as the result of the heat and their thirst. So they posted guards all about and hemmed them in to prevent their getting water anywhere ; for the barbarians were far superior in numbers. The Romans, accordingly, were in a terrible plight from fatigue, wounds, the heat of the sun, and thirst, and so could neither fight nor retreat, but were standing in the line and at their several posts, scorched by the heat, when suddenly many clouds gathered and a mighty rain, not without divine interposition, burst upon them. Indeed, there is a story to the effect that Arnuphis, an Egyptian magician, who was a companion of Marcus, had invoked by means of enchantments various deities and in particular Mercury, the god of the air, and by this means attracted the rain. When the rain poured down, at first all turned their faces upwards and received the water in their mouths ; then some held out their shields and some their helmets to catch it, and they not only took deep draughts themselves but also gave their horses to drink. And when the barbarians now charged upon them, they drank and fought at the same time ; and some, becoming wounded, actually gulped down the blood that flowed into their helmets, along with the water. So intent, indeed, were most of them on drinking that they would have suffered severely from the enemy's onset, had not a violent hail-storm and numerous thunderbolts fallen upon the ranks of the foe. Thus in one and the same place one might have beheld water and fire descending from the sky simultaneously ; so that while those on the one side were being drenched and drinking, the others were being consumed by fire and dying ; and while the fire, on the one hand, did not touch the Romans, but, if it fell anywhere among them, was immediately extinguished, the shower, on the other hand, did the barbarians no good, but, like so much oil, actually fed the flames that were consuming them, and they had to search for water even while being drenched with rain.

The translator's comment on the above quote:

[This is what Dio says about the matter,^ but he is apparently in error, whether intentionally or otherwise ; and yet I am inclined to believe his error was chiefly intentional. It surely must be so, for he was not ignorant of the division of soldiers that bore the special name of the "Thundering" Legion,—indeed he mentions it in the list along with the others,^— a title which was given it for no other reason (for no other is reported) than because of the incident that occurred in this very war. It was precisely this incident that saved the Romans on this occasion and brought destruction upon the barbarians, and not Arnuphis, the magician ; for Marcus is not reported to have taken pleasure in the company of magicians or in witchcraft. Now the incident I have reference to is this ; Marcus had a division of soldiers (the Romans call a division a legion) from Melitene ; and these people are all worshippers of Christ. Now it is stated that in this battle, when Marcus found himself at a loss what to do in the circumstances and feared for his whole army, the prefect approached him and told him that those who are called Cliristians can accomplish anything whatever by their prayers and that in the army there chanced to be a whole division of this sect. Marcus on hearing this appealed to them to pray to their God ; and when they had prayed, their God immediately gave ear and smote the enemy with a thunderbolt and comforted the Romans with a shower of rain. Marcus was greatly astonished at this and not only honoured the Christians by an official decree but also named the legion the "Thundering" Legion. It is also reported that there is a letter of Marcus extant on the subject. But the Greeks, though they know that the division was called the "Thundering" Legion and themselves bear witness to the fact, nevertheless make no statement whatever about the reason for its name.]

I'm thinking of adding it under Society/War, Celestial/Fire in the Sky and Environmental/Severe Storm + Extreme Heat (unusual heat wave for being in Germany).

Should I also add the translator's comment as the reference to the Thundering Legion is also telling?

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

This one is excellent.

I'm currently going through Dio Cassius' Roman History Books 71-80 and found an interesting quote that I'd like some feedback on before adding to the database. It refers to a battle that took place in 174 AD between the Romans led by Marcus Aurelius and the Quadi, a germanic tribe:

So Marcus subdued the Marcomani and the lazyges {Did ya'll know that Ark's name, Jadczyk, is derived from Iazyges?} after many hard struggles and dangers. {1 WAR} A great war against the people called the Quadi also fell to his lot and it was his good fortune to win an unexpected victory, or rather it was vouchsafed him by Heaven. For when the Romans were in peril in the course of the battle, the divine power saved them in a most unexpected manner. The Quadi had surrounded them at a spot favourable for their purpose and the Romans were fighting valiantly with their shields locked together ; then the barbarians ceased fighting, expecting to capture them easily as the result of the heat and their thirst. So they posted guards all about and hemmed them in to prevent their getting water anywhere ; for the barbarians were far superior in numbers. The Romans, accordingly, were in a terrible plight from fatigue, wounds, the heat of the sun, and thirst, and so could neither fight nor retreat, but were standing in the line and at their several posts, scorched by the heat, {2 Severe Storm; keyword "Cloudburst"} when suddenly many clouds gathered and a mighty rain, not without divine interposition, burst upon them. Indeed, there is a story to the effect that Arnuphis, an Egyptian magician, who was a companion of Marcus, had invoked by means of enchantments various deities and in particular Mercury, the god of the air, and by this means attracted the rain. When the rain poured down, at first all turned their faces upwards and received the water in their mouths ; then some held out their shields and some their helmets to catch it, and they not only took deep draughts themselves but also gave their horses to drink. And when the barbarians now charged upon them, they drank and fought at the same time ; and some, becoming wounded, actually gulped down the blood that flowed into their helmets, along with the water. So intent, indeed, were most of them on drinking that they would have suffered severely from the enemy's onset, {3 Falling Fire. Keywords: Flaming Hail. Velikovsky showed that ancient references to hail often meant stones. In this instance, I think it may be applicable based on the description: fiery stones, flaming stones.}had not a violent hail-storm and numerous thunderbolts fallen upon the ranks of the foe. Thus in one and the same place one might have beheld water and fire descending from the sky simultaneously ; so that while those on the one side were being drenched and drinking, the others were being consumed by fire and dying ; and while the fire, on the one hand, did not touch the Romans, but, if it fell anywhere among them, was immediately extinguished, the shower, on the other hand, did the barbarians no good, but, like so much oil, actually fed the flames that were consuming them, {Was there also falling naptha, or is this just a spin? Maybe we could just add a keyword to the Falling Fire entry: naptha} and they had to search for water even while being drenched with rain.

Naphtha normally refers to a number of flammable liquid mixtures of hydrocarbons, i.e. a component of natural gas condensate or a distillation product from petroleum, coal tar, or peat boiling in a certain range and containing certain hydrocarbons.

The translator's comment on the above quote:

[This is what Dio says about the matter,^ but he is apparently in error, whether intentionally or otherwise ; and yet I am inclined to believe his error was chiefly intentional. It surely must be so, for he was not ignorant of the division of soldiers that bore the special name of the "Thundering" Legion,—indeed he mentions it in the list along with the others,^— a title which was given it for no other reason (for no other is reported) than because of the incident that occurred in this very war. It was precisely this incident that saved the Romans on this occasion and brought destruction upon the barbarians, and not Arnuphis, the magician ; for Marcus is not reported to have taken pleasure in the company of magicians or in witchcraft. Now the incident I have reference to is this ; Marcus had a division of soldiers (the Romans call a division a legion) from Melitene ; and these people are all worshippers of Christ. Now it is stated that in this battle, when Marcus found himself at a loss what to do in the circumstances and feared for his whole army, the prefect approached him and told him that those who are called Cliristians can accomplish anything whatever by their prayers and that in the army there chanced to be a whole division of this sect. Marcus on hearing this appealed to them to pray to their God ; and when they had prayed, their God immediately gave ear and smote the enemy with a thunderbolt and comforted the Romans with a shower of rain. Marcus was greatly astonished at this and not only honoured the Christians by an official decree but also named the legion the "Thundering" Legion. It is also reported that there is a letter of Marcus extant on the subject. But the Greeks, though they know that the division was called the "Thundering" Legion and themselves bear witness to the fact, nevertheless make no statement whatever about the reason for its name.]

{I think that is a Christian spin attempt. Is the author named?}

I'm thinking of adding it under Society/War, Celestial/Fire in the Sky {Use Falling Fire} and Environmental/Severe Storm + Extreme Heat (unusual heat wave for being in Germany). {Sounds good. Might add "Cloudburst"

Should I also add the translator's comment as the reference to the Thundering Legion is also telling?

Yes, add that comment but note the author of it if possible, and point out that it is obviously Christianizing spin.