Homeland War

Avala, this has nothing to do with being prudish or nitpicking. It is about maintaining decent tone in decent environment.

The fact that you built the whole narrative about it after Grini pointed to you that your wording offended her sensibilities is something else ( and now you are doing it again).

It looks like you are trying to imply that using F word in Serbo-Croatian is okay because it is part of Balkan culture!?

Contrary to your belief, Balkan culture is no different from English culture or any other culture for that matter, while there are many people who use F word instead of preposition in every other sentence this doesn't make it acceptable form of communication as there are plenty of people who wouldn't use this word unless meteorite landed in their living room.

That's all that is being pointed to you and it is a pity you are unable to see it.
 
anart said:
Denis and Avala, it would be helpful if you could both re-read the forum guidelines. This forum is run in a specific way for a specific reason, regardless of your personal viewpoints.

Anart,
Did that already. Just in case. I must admit that I really don't see a problem in my post which is in question. I mean if no one was directly offended (really not my intention). It is mater of the meaning and the context. Of course regardless my personal viewpoint, which is irrelevant in the case. It could be understood in more ways, my intention was not to offend anyone. I will agree if you say that I was clumsy with that. The problem was because it is not all in english, that will never happen again.




H.E.
I really don't have time and will for your games. I'm not implying anything, and I'm not interested in any culture. I think that it is pity that you see using of the "F" word (your word not mine) which is not even "F" word in the language and the context it was written and shouting that loud, as more (and only?) important than what I was trying to say in the post.


We know each other from before, and I can see that you haven't change a bit. You are just more versed in phrasing. You have just learned to wrap your unconscious manipulations better. (and I really don't care how you rationalize that to yourself) And you still do the "pointing to the problems" where there are none, just with better phrasing and vocabulary now. Nice for you. You even sound childish, like: "He is using ugly word, he is not understanding, and I am better than hiiiim! Teacher see me, see meeee, I am betteeer!". Sorry, but you look like that.


H.E. said:
Avala, this has nothing to do with being prudish or nitpicking. It is about maintaining decent tone in decent environment.


No. Decent tone and decent environment WAS before you made a problem out of nothing. Read my post on the last page and this entire page and posts on it in order how it was written. You even dragged the moderator in problem that you have constructed, and use her. You are acting like bully, so that even some people trying to defend me! Thats crazy.

I have apologized and explained myself to Grini, but YOU ARE continuing with the "problem" and with the noise.

Now we all are playing your game and arguing about the form and HOW something is said, instead of the meaning and WHAT is said. That is the craziest thing. And even the form was OK, before you have pronounced that it is not.

And don't worry, I know that you don't, and will never have, capacity to understand what I am talking.

I am ready to defend this! And I really don't care if Anart ban me. If that will be the case, I would be glad not to be on the place where people are buying your manipulative constructions! And you can rationalize this to yourself in every way you want (or are able to).
 
Avala, you are skating on very thin ice and if you don't adjust your attitude, your posting privileges will be removed.

Avala said:
Anart,
Did that already. Just in case. I must admit that I really don't see a problem in my post which is in question. I mean if no one was directly offended (really not my intention). It is mater of the meaning and the context. Of course regardless my personal viewpoint, which is irrelevant in the case. It could be understood in more ways, my intention was not to offend anyone. I will agree if you say that I was clumsy with that. The problem was because it is not all in english, that will never happen again.

It doesn't matter whether you see a problem or not. We see a problem and, therefore, there is a problem. You really need to get over yourself.



avala said:
H.E.
I really don't have time and will for your games. I'm not implying anything, and I'm not interested in any culture. I think that it is pity that you see using of the "F" word (your word not mine) which is not even "F" word in the language and the context it was written and shouting that loud, as more (and only?) important than what I was trying to say in the post.

We know each other from before, and I can see that you haven't change a bit. You are just more versed in phrasing. You have just learned to wrap your unconscious manipulations better. (and I really don't care how you rationalize that to yourself) And you still do the "pointing to the problems" where there are none, just with better phrasing and vocabulary now. Nice for you. You even sound childish, like: "He is using ugly word, he is not understanding, and I am better than hiiiim! Teacher see me, see meeee, I am betteeer!". Sorry, but you look like that.


Avala, drop the aggression or you will be removed.



avala said:
H.E. said:
Avala, this has nothing to do with being prudish or nitpicking. It is about maintaining decent tone in decent environment.


No. Decent tone and decent environment WAS before you made a problem out of nothing. Read my post on the last page and this entire page and posts on it in order how it was written. You even dragged the moderator in problem that you have constructed, and use her. You are acting like bully, so that even some people trying to defend me! Thats crazy.

I have apologized and explained myself to Grini, but YOU ARE continuing with the "problem" and with the noise.

Now we all are playing your game and arguing about the form and HOW something is said, instead of the meaning and WHAT is said. That is the craziest thing. And even the form was OK, before you have pronounced that it is not.

And don't worry, I know that you don't, and will never have, capacity to understand what I am talking.

I am ready to defend this! And I really don't care if Anart ban me. If that will be the case, I would be glad not to be on the place where people are buying your manipulative constructions! And you can rationalize this to yourself in every way you want (or are able to).

Okay, if you want to be banned, then you will be removed. It's very simple. Either act like an adult and be polite and treat others how you would like to be treated or continue acting like a spoiled child with anger issues and be removed from this forum - it is up to you, but understand that once you are removed you cannot return, as you have in the past after being banned for very similar behavior.
 
To get over what? Constructed problem? We can all be adult and polite, and not care what other person really said? We will talk how something looks, but not what that means?

I will be baned, and H.E. will be of course quiet after that, there will be no problems, because in his mind he stays quiet and righteous and he was "just pointing to the problem"? I'm not sure do I want to be in his company or in the company with the people who buys that.

Well, I'm not sure is it in my best interest.

I am really not sure do I want to be baned or do I want to stay in such company. Do as you wish.
 
Avala said:
To get over what? Constructed problem? We can all be adult and polite, and not care what other person really said? We will talk how something looks, but not what that means?

I will be baned, and H.E. will be of course quiet after that, there will be no problems, because in his mind he stays quiet and righteous and he was "just pointing to the problem"? I'm not sure do I want to be in his company or in the company with the people who buys that.

Well, I'm not sure is it in my best interest.

I am really not sure do I want to be baned or do I want to stay in such company. Do as you wish.
Very well, your posting privileges have been removed.
 
It's really quite astonishing to see to what lengths someone would go to defend their potty mouth :O and be truly oblivious to the fact that they even have a potty mouth even after several people point it out to them! Oh my! It really reminds me of what I'm reading in Thinking Fast and Slow, about how when one is really sure of themselves, they cannot see or understand what others see in them. They only see themselves through their own eyes and that's it!
 
anart said:
Denis and Avala, it would be helpful if you could both re-read the forum guidelines. This forum is run in a specific way for a specific reason, regardless of your personal viewpoints.

I understand. I will abide by the forum guidelines- it's your forum and it's your rules. I won't use the "f word" here again.
 
Interesting event development to say at least. I don't know why Avala trying to pull that he can use here those kind of words when in the forum guidelines is plainly stated that one, if wants post on this forum can't use those kind of words. To me its more that someone hit the spot on his programing (perhaps he had enough of authoritative figures and program kicked in, giving that he might not understand the mater having the result we can see) and instead to rethink after reading it he reacted as many do, impulsive sort of like push and play. Well that is his bad, as far my opinion goes toward those words, I don't use it here nor I ever will. Its forum rules for those who want to post on it, simple as clear sky. As far my usage outside of this forum goes, yes I use it. I don't use it as to point to someone and say it, I find that quite the same as pretty much all here do. As for situation, for example stumbling on to the stone and saying, or thinking that word, yes I do, let steam of so to speak, and I use it aloud when I'm alone. Not always that word but u get the idea. That's my choice outside this forum, here is pretty simple and really i don't see why one should need to use any of those words here, its not like we have need for it anyway. Those who lack consideration for others in their surroundings treat all surroundings as same, which can be a problem as that has been pointed out in this thread.

And now returning to main theme of the thread. My birth place is Bosnia and Herzegovina, I'm Croat by all the papers someone gave to me, not that it maters to me. Now I live in Croatia, but before war I lived in Bosnia. When war started we had to leave place because Muslims were coming with an army. Serbs took us in and they helped us go to peaceful parts of Bosnia, namely Kiseljak where we lived some time and after that we have moved to Drvar at that time was already abandoned by Serbs and most of Croatian people in Bosnia were stationed there by the end of the war, later by the end of 98' Serbian people begin to come back at their place. Of course there was much tension there mostly by the grown ups. Most of children, as time passed by all have, started to play together and go to school together there. But as always politics leaves scars everywhere and there were cases when some Croatians did provoke Serbian people and vice versa, but with out bad ending for anyone except few egos hurt.

Through my life i can testify that I have been more kindly treated by the Muslims and Serbs than Croatians, and till this day that remains the case. I have more friends that are Muslims and Serbs than Croatians. So for me is human that counts not the nationality that someone gave us by our place of birth and what our parents chose for us to be. Anyway when generals did pass trial and let go back to Croatia, here was more than million people on the streets of cities celebrating, getting together and so on, to me that was wth moment. When we need to get together to protest and take a stand for the rights, 20 people comes and when something trivial as this (at least for me) comes million people is together acting as one :huh:. Our moral comas not that is broken but going right to the opposite direction. Considering the society that supports psychopathic traits and judges healthy ones its is not surprising that more and more people, taking into account also that most of people "living" unconsciously it can hard come as surprise that we have things like this. Where most people of one nation doesn't take into considerations what their actions will do to people of other nation, ponerization is on its full swing and its toll can be seen from day to day.
 
excellent documentary and great summary of everything that happened in Balkans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEYQ46gH08&feature=share
 
Hague hinders regional reconciliation

President Tomislav Nikolić sharply criticized the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) at a United Nations debate on Wednesday.

The Serbian president expressed the view that the ICTY, known as the Hague Tribunal, has done nothing to help but has rather only hindered the process of reconciliation in the former Yugoslavia.

“Serbia and I are ready not to wait for 70 more years to reconcile with the neighbors that we used to live with together in the same state or (to reconcile) with those, I mean to say Kosovo-Metohija, with whom we live in the same country today. I am deeply convinced that the Hague Tribunal has only done harm to this process and that it has probably caused an unnecessary delay that will be carried over to the next generation. The process has certainly and to a large extent been slowed down and made more difficult,” said the Serbian president.

According to Nikolić, the tribunal is making one nation feel as being a victim of great injustice, while making another nation enjoy a feeling of great triumph.

“From the standpoint of science and ethics, the Hague processes can be put on a par with the processes led by the Inquisition and with the Paris and Moscow Trials. The proceedings against Serbs are motivated by desires to punish and retaliate; and retaliation, particularly in contemporary law, can never be justified as righteous. The Hague procedures are characterized by a total lack of justice and fairness,” said the Serbian president.

Speaking the first among a total of 50 member countries' representatives who have announced their participation in the debate, Nikolić said that all the penalties that have been voiced against Serbs at the ICTY put together amount to about 1,150 years, while the sentences against representatives of other nations for crimes against Serbs total 55 years.

The president recalled that Croat generals Mladen Markač and Ante Gotovina were released despite the fact that Croatian troops expelled more than 300,000 Serbs from areas that have been inhabited by their ancestors for centuries.

Also, more than 2,000 victims in Bratunac, Kravica and surrounding areas in eastern Bosnia, places of activity of the Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) forces under the command of Naser Orić are still waiting to see at least some of the perpetrators receiving punishments, he added.

Serbs from Kosovo-Metohija have been victims to organized kidnappings and removal of organs from their bodies, which were later sold on the black market. History did not see such crimes before. Instead of processing the crimes, the Hague tribunal has destroyed the evidence, said Nikolić.

“Hundreds of thousands of exiled, and thousands of killed and kidnapped persons in Kosovo were not enough for The Hague tribunal to decide to punish the commanders and members of the so-called (Kosovo) Liberation Army; and not only that, since during the trial (of Ramush) Haradinaj, the tribunal allowed the accused to be involved in politics, which is an unprecedented move. What it actually allowed him to do is to eliminate and intimidate witnesses,” Nikolić added.

Nikolić believes that the verdicts reached by the tribunal are making the Serbian people feel frustrated and depressed while creating the feelings of exultation and triumph among the Croats and Bosniaks.

It seems that for the greatest part, The Hague trials will not be able to lead to a real and complete truth and therefore, any reconciliation will be an imposed and insincere one. You cannot be fair to some and unfair to others. Also, how to explain away the fact that almost nobody, except in one case in Bosnia and in one case in Kosovo, has been convicted of crimes against Serbs,” said Nikolić.

Speaking at the thematic debate, entitled "Role of international criminal justice in reconciliation", which begun at the UN headquarters on the East River on Wednesday, and is being boycotted by the United states and ICTY representatives, Nikolić commented on the unwillingness of the tribunal's representatives to attend, observing that “if they did not respect the most ancient legal rule, "audiatur et altera pars'" (hear the other side too), how can we expect even a minimum of law and justice of them?”

“The Hague tribunal has failed to meet that which they have proclaimed as their main goal - regional reconciliation; therefore, it (the ICTY) cannot be the future of international justice, but only its past and an ugly one at that. The only benefit derived from the existence of the Hague tribunal is that it has now become quite clear that the method of its creation and its entire work has shown that things should never be done in that way again,” he said.

As an expression of support for the work of the International Court of Justice, as the sole instance to enforce international justice, and because of Serbia's desire to contribute to the proclaimed goals of the Hague tribunal, Nikolić described in detail what Serbia has done in its cooperation with the ICTY so far.

Serbia has extradited 46 defendants, including two former presidents, government members, three chiefs of staff of its army and several police and army generals, including the director of intelligence service which, Nikolić says, has never been done by any other country.

Also, he added, Serbia has “almost given up on its sovereignty,” relieving more than 750 witnesses from the obligation to safeguard state secrets.

“Our cooperation with the Hague tribunal was our sincere desire to contribute to reconciliation in the former Yugoslavia, rather than a result of any kind of pressure. For that reason, and often threatening its national interests, Serbia has met almost all requests for assistance by the Hague prosecutor or defendants and not a single request to review its archives has been denied.”

At the same time, he said, “in the activities of the Hague Tribunal, Serbs in general have rarely been noted as victims ... save only in a few instances: Haradin Bala was convicted for crimes against Serbs in Kosovo and received a sentence of 13 years in prison; Zdravko Mućić got 9 years, Hazim Delić 18 years and Esad Landžo 15 years in prison.”

These data may suggest a following conclusion: the perpetrators of war crimes on the territory of the former Yugoslavia are almost exclusively Serbs while, which is particularly interesting, there are almost no Serbs at all among the victims of the tragic wars. Someone is trying to establish the conclusion that the Serbian side alone was conducting killings and genocide in a bestial and orgiastic manner, while the other side sat on its hands, dealing with its daily routines and humanitarian work,” he said.

Nikolić said that “it is not true that in this war that destroyed us all only one side was getting killed and the other side was doing the killings,” adding that “perhaps it was all prelude to the seizure of Kosovo-Metohija from Serbia, which we now see at work and in which the organization composed of the most modern and supposedly fairest countries is involved. Yes, but (it is) also (composed) of the most powerful countries, whose 'ranks' were deserted by justice.”

If a future researcher, a future historian, is to derive their conclusions about the war in Bosnia on the basis of the number of the accused and convicted Serbs, Croats and Muslims, he will only be able to conclude that the Serbs alone killed Croats and Muslims, that almost not a single Serb was murdered and that the Croats killed the Bosniaks here and there, while the Bosniaks killed almost not a single Croat. This is a striking reflection of the state of affairs when it comes to the tribunal's lack of objectivity and impartiality,” he said.

_http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2013&mm=04&dd=10&nav_id=85636
 
excellent documentary and great summary of everything that happened in Balkans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEYQ46gH08&feature=share

I watched that documentary soon after it was released and it is spot on, only one thing I noticed was that the author was subjective in the beginning of it when talking about first Yugoslavia, that is Kingdom of Yugoslavia, he did not mention nothing about it. Just that it was all fine probably because of him being Serb. In first Yugoslavia, where the influence of Britain and France was very great after WWI, the Serbian government(which was lead by radical nationalists) was implementing Serbian hegemony and centralizing the state, and every resistance or fight for greater autonomy was met with force most of time, and even deadly force(major opposition politicians being killed).

There was and period when the king introduced full blown dictatorial regime and the parliament was dismissed and work of parties forbidden. The greatest resistance and wish for greater autonomy came from Croatia because it was a second largest nation and it wanted more equal relations, so the oppression was felt there very much(Serbian radicals said the Croatians are western Serbs like some radicals today still see it). Before the WWII it got it s autonomy but soon the war broke out. Fascist regime was then set up by Nazis and Italians in which the radical nationalist current(ustaše in croatian and serbian) that was in emigration took power, and in the time of first Yugoslavia they organized attacks and acts of sabotage from emigration against central government, they were against any kind of negotiations with central government. So when they took power they started to take vengeance on Serbs in Croatia and put them in Konzentrationslagers along with Jews, and they also attacked villages, burnt them and killed Serbs living there. In this documentary the number of people killed in camps is probably overestimated.

Also as mentioned in documentary Serbian radicals in WWII that fought with Germans, so called četnici, were burning also Croatian and Muslim villages and killing people there under the protection of Italians. Partisans were at first with them but then turned against them because of that. So author probably avoided this subject because it was maybe touchy for him but important to see better picture.

My aunt in Bosnia had bad experience with Muslims that dragged her with chains but even her own people, Serbs, wanted to rape her and were the ones that needed to protect them. One of my cousins went voluntarily to serbian army(one radical unit) in Bosnia and then left after he saw them for what they were. He was left with other men to protect the rest of the unit that was stealing machines from one factory. Then the Muslim tanks approached them and they at first thought they were theirs but then got the whole story and ran and went out of the Yugoslavia. They were left there by their unit to die. He got what he asked for in the end and was lucky to see it.

Author of above mentioned documentary made and documentary about Kosovo war which was also good and very objective. The most bitter end was for those Serbs in Croatia that were forced to move out and when they came to Serbia they were treated in worse manner then in Croatia(in Croatia they were called četnici by Croats and in Serbia ustaše by Serbs) and then they went to Kosovo where soon the Albanians came and started forcing them out and cleansing them like they are doing today. My father met one friend who was in Serbian Croat army that went after the war on Kosovo. He was a police officer on border but was also active in war in Kosovo and he told him how it was there. He said that at first they treated well all Albanians but when they found out that they were harvesting organs of Serbs they started to cleanse them in vengeance, and like always innocent people on both side get hurt in that way.

The thing with the Hague is that it shows that the Serbs are only one that are guilty, it is a farce. Croatian generals like Gotovina and Markač were released after they were already convicted probably because Croatia made a deal with EU that after they finish all obligations for membership they would be released. Gotovina was not so responsible for some crimes because that was done without his knowledge but he was part of the plan to force Serbs out. Here in Croatia he is now like a god and was before war in french foreign legion that are known cutthroats in north Africa. Markač is guilty all the way because police special forces were known for committing crimes against civilians and prisoners, for that and I can get a witness because I know one guy that was in croatian army and saw them kill unarmed JNA reservists. Many more would have probably finished in Hague from croatian top if they did not die first. But some are still in political top and are free men while being responsible for massacres like former president of parliament.

There is also one good documentary about Milosevic trials and how it was set up. There are testimonies from journalists that were present and Milosevic defended himself very good against all accusations for which they did not have evidence and also he showed that they used false hidden witnesses that even journalists saw what was up so they closed the trials for them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13yRxBStGyY
 
Just forgot to mention that my father also had experiences when during the war he saw men killed with AK-47 s for being drunk and talking to much against new government and he also had nasty experience when some guy with PTSD got in the argument with some guys and left and after some time passed hand grenade was thrown in the bar by that guy. Father was lucky to take cover in time. But after the war he was not the same men because those very close to him that he was ready to give blood for were ready to kill him because of nationalist hatred that was propagated in that time. I said to him they were always like that just their mask falls in this kind of situations, probably OP s. Recently another guy with PTSD blown himself and some people up, these kind of things continued since the war ended and are still happening.
 

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