How Not To Be

anart said:
Psyche said:
Why on Earth I set myself up with excuses that prevent me of speaking out and being open and forthcoming about my struggles, I do not know. Well, I do know. It all boils down to self-importance with matters of detail about my life and past experiences being really just that, matters of detail. It all boils down to self-importance.

Do you think it's possible that it comes down to not only self-importance but also that you've benefited greatly in your life by encouraging others to feel pity for you and to see you as one who has overcome such great odds to get where you are? In other words, perhaps you do it because it's worked so well for you thus far?

I could have said the exact same words about my mother. I became herself myself despite that I tried so hard not to. It is painful to see how I became practically the exact opposite I set myself to do in the beginning, or at least, I thought I did. I thought I was going to live up to the level of my ideals and dreams. Perhaps that is the problem, I really didn't try. I just went along with the lie. It was the only thing that seemed to work out well. So much for the kudos I never wanted for myself and for the lie I fought so hard against. I can't blame my mother for anything, really.

Then seeing the consequences has made me so horrified that I had "self-soothed" myself by justifying more self-pity. Like building the prison anew each day. The lie I tell myself is that it is only me that will be pay the consequences and suffer the price, when in fact, I end up perpetuating the exact same problem that has been so dysfunctional at dealing with my own issues. Dealing with the problem by perpetuating it makes NO sense at all!

I had grown to love my own prison because of the lie I believed that it was the only way to survive this world. And it is not "okay". I don't want to inflict nor encourage this pain in anyone, ever. But on the contrary, I want to offer the light at the end of the tunnel for anyone who is going through the same thing in their own personal prison versions. The only way to do this is to stop this nonsensical loop first in myself, or so it seems to me.
 
Psyche said:
But on the contrary, I want to offer the light at the end of the tunnel for anyone who is going through the same thing in their own personal prison versions.

You cannot offer a light that you do not yet have, and cannot yet see.

p said:
The only way to do this is to stop this nonsensical loop first in myself, or so it seems to me.

I think that's probably the case. Drop the grandiosity, the melodrama, the self-pity and really look, for the first time, at who you are - without self interest and without self pity. If you can do that, even once, then you have a place to start, which, in itself, would be quite an accomplishment.
 
anart said:
p said:
The only way to do this is to stop this nonsensical loop first in myself, or so it seems to me.

I think that's probably the case. Drop the grandiosity, the melodrama, the self-pity and really look, for the first time, at who you are - without self interest and without self pity. If you can do that, even once, then you have a place to start, which, in itself, would be quite an accomplishment.

And please, drop all the charged emotional words. Talk about a tempest in a teapot! Either you don't know what the emotional terms you are using so freely actually mean, or you have a really serious perception problem. People deal with real life every day. They suffer horribly and just keep going without drama. As far as I can tell and know, you've hardly suffered a day in your life in any significant way.
 
You may have noticed, Psyche, that the people who really suffer, who carry the weight of the world, or at least the weight of others, on their shoulders, tend not to get all hysterical and verbose about it. They just get on with it and deal with their personal suffering in a personal way, and then, where appropriate, share what they have learned.
 
Psyche said:
Then seeing the consequences has made me so horrified that I had "self-soothed" myself by justifying more self-pity.

This is in total contradiction, and you seem to be using words with no real meaning attached to them. When someone feels "so horrified", the last thing they want to do (assuming the really want to grow up and become a better person) is self-soothe. Which then comes down to, you haven't suffered at all, or you are too happy with your own "suffering", or?

Like building the prison anew each day. The lie I tell myself is that it is only me that will be pay the consequences and suffer the price, when in fact, I end up perpetuating the exact same problem that has been so dysfunctional at dealing with my own issues. Dealing with the problem by perpetuating it makes NO sense at all!

Self-pity again. "Building the prison"?? I think that maybe you have watched too many soap opears in your life... What you describe sounds more like a 5 star hotel called "The Self-Pity Crown" or something.

I had grown to love my own prison because of the lie I believed that it was the only way to survive this world. And it is not "okay". I don't want to inflict nor encourage this pain in anyone, ever. But on the contrary, I want to offer the light at the end of the tunnel for anyone who is going through the same thing in their own personal prison versions. The only way to do this is to stop this nonsensical loop first in myself, or so it seems to me.

Can you write something, anything at all, without making it all about you and about how you need to be pitied?

She has so much rage that she simply doesn't want to let it go. Indeed, the most useful thing I can do for my "inner child" is to allow for her to just let it go. I think she is feeling very relieved with the idea. After all, this is the treatment she received from others: it was all from people who didn't let go the rage.

Please! Let what go? Hasn't she been running the show? You are perfectly capable of expressing your "rage", and we have witnessed it before. Either you really have NO perception of how you come across to others, or maybe you are trying (again!) to ask for pity? That "inner child" is YOU, by the way. No separate beings there. And it's nobody's fault at this point. Can you just let go, for once, of this blaming your "horrible" past for everything? At some point, enough is enough. Taking responsibility is the first step. If you can.
 
I think it has began to snap out of me. I'll write later.
 
"Overwhelm yourself with compassion and unconditional love towards yourself and others which will fuel your actions."

IMO this is not always the right thing to do for permanent growth - taking positive emotions to cover up/push away the negative ones? To me its like taking medicine to mask the pain but where is the pain coming from? Where are these negative emotions coming from? Covering them up or glossing over them with positive feelings doesn't solve the problem of having these negative emotions in the first place and will keep you going back at forth from negative to positive. Then you have these positive emotions fueling your actions but what are these actions? are they the right actions? the right aim? if you don't know where the negative emotions are coming from and you have just spent your life covering them up with positive then you won't be able to see the source and take actions to understand, reduce or stop these negative emotions form happening with the aim of forming one "I" not having "I" #1 cover up "I" # 2 just so that "I" # 2 appears again later down the road and then you are stuck in this cat and mouse game .

On the other hand I can see this being helpful if you objectively know and set out on the right path and along it when you stumble and get nocked down then positive emotions will help pick you up so you can keep going, using them as fuel to complete what you have set out to do.
 
Hey Psyche,

I'd like to comment and ask a few questions about your post and the later dialogue. I'm trying to understand the mechanism of self-pity which equates to fear and rage in myself which tends to run a lot when I am stressed out or feel 'trapped' or suffocated in some situation that I'm insecure about or confused in how to act.

A lot of these emotions seem to be childhood trauma based, or as Gabor Mate puts it an 'implicit memory' that has nothing to do with the present situation and doesn't warrant such an extreme reaction but does so because it reminds us of something from the past that we have supressed or weren't able to deal with properly because we lacked proper resources.

But anyways, I'm also trying to understand the difference between the 'inner child' that did not receive what he/she needed as a young child that caused part of the personality to form maladaptively and the predator or negative introject and how they can be dealt with. Because this topic of compassion has come up quite a bit in my current readings, and I don't understand what it means to truly be compassionate with myself. I try to be, but I think it often ends up as trying to soothe myself with the 'there there, it's okay' attitude to counteract the feelings of fear and rage that come up which scare me because I dislike being cold, judgemental and harsh towards anybody or fearful that I only think of myself - so I try and force myself into some compassionate state which is clearly insincere.

In Deep Therapy in the Fast Lane _http://home.comcast.net/~riversrages/DeepTherapy/intro.htm Restin Wells sometimes refers to her inner child as a sickly little creature - paraphrasing - which bothered me because aren't we supposed to treat that inner child w/loving kindness to help that emotional component grow? But maybe it is sickly which is why it's stuck, and it might not be about allowing it to express itself in this life as much as showing that 'we' are in charge and can take care of it by being the adult, the responsible human being that we lacked in childhood?

Is the predator the Inner child? The Inner child is emotionally immature, running on very basic emotional drives to direct our behaviour, the predator feeds off others for it's own neurotic, egotistal gains, and then the negative introject is the voice that beats down any semblance of essential self from taking charge of the show... :huh:

Compassion - a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

Empathy - the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

Close, but no cigar, osit. There's a slight difference in one wants to alleviate the suffering, which I think anyone would want to alleviate, at least their own suffering, and the other is about identifying the feelings thoughts and attitudes of another - this could even be used towards the different parts of our psyche that run the show.

I don't know where I'm going with this, but from what I've read so far the whole purpose is to contain these emotions so they don't run the show, through non-identification and to allow these emotions to express themselves in some way that isn't destructive. Sometimes I allow the rage to run in my head while I try and maintain a distance from it and just allow it to express itself and 'do it's thing'. Because supression and denying this part of myself doesn't work and only makes it stronger, so I even sometimes get angry with myself and say 'yes, I'm an angry person, so what?!' and I use that anger as a fuel to be externally considerate and not take out my frustration on anyone else or get angry and tell the Negative introject which scares me by saying things like 'You are right, I am a worthless, jealous, piece of s***, who has no one in life to turn to, I accept that! Now what? Now that I've accepted what I am, what next!?'

Lot's of things, like focus on a specific task that's important, or read or not be so self-piteous because I accept my self pity and I can't be full of self-pity if I've accepted that I am and move on to something else. Understand what works, what doesn't, why it works and is it long term or only a short term band-aid fix.

If you are in a worse state now than previously, then something you are doing, some belief you have recently engrained in yourself is a detriment to you and has to be let go of.

Jiddu Krishnamurti, who even though isn't talked about much on the forum has some really interesting things to say about self-observation and trying to change and to be a certain way that may not be of you at the moment.

Questioner: Can the crude mind become sensitive?

Listen to the question, to the meaning behind the words. Can the crude mind become sensitive? If I say my mind is crude and I try to become sensitive, the very effortto become sensitive is crudity. Please see this. Don't be intrigued, but watch it. Whereas, if I recognize that I am crude without wanting to change, without trying to become sensitive, if I begin to understand that crudeness is, observe it in my life from day to day - the greedy way I eat, the roughness with which I treat people, the pride, the arrogance, the coarseness of my habits and thoughts - then that very observation transforms what is.

Similarly, If I am stupid and I say I must become intelligent, the effort to become intelligent is only a greater form of stupidity; because what is important is important is to understand stupidity. However much I may try to become intelligent, my stupidity will remain. I may acquire the superficial polish of learning, I may be able to quote books, repeat passages from great authors, but basically I shall still be stupid. But if I see and understand stupidity as it expresses itself in my daily life - how I behave towards my servants, how I regard my neighbour, the poor man, the rich man, the clerk - then that very awareness brings about a breaking up of stupidity.

Felt compelled to share this, as the whole topic of you trying not to be you, and force yourself to be someone while wallowing in self-pity else has come up a lot in my struggles on a daily basis. Although if what I'm saying makes no sense or completely out in left field, I'm sure someone will point it out.
 
As someone who also has this tendency of tending towards the melodrama, and self pity, what I found out that helps is to shut up and deal with the pressure of wanting to "make others understand how much you are suffering".
It will fail, but every time you try you can get by a little longer, then you will fall down miserably, but in the end, as long you keep on trying you will succeed in enduring your personal suffering, will realize that in the end its not that bad, and that you can take even more, DO more.
There is really not much more I can say, I hope that can be of any use.
 
Psyche, when I first saw that you had started a thread, I was looking forward to read in your own words what has been going on in your life lately. But, to my surprise you quoted something from a book without giving much context, which seemed like a odd thing coming from someone like you.

There are probably things that you and the elders don't want to share, and I might have missed something, but can I just ask - what happened?
 
Aragorn said:
Psyche, when I first saw that you had started a thread, I was looking forward to read in your own words what has been going on in your life lately. But, to my surprise you quoted something from a book without giving much context, which seemed like a odd thing coming from someone like you.

There are probably things that you and the elders don't want to share, and I might have missed something, but can I just ask - what happened?
I was wandering the same thing; what happened. I mean at the risk of sounding ignorant, is this the same Psyche, the doc, our old Psyche or someone using the same avatar name? I cannot recognise this person :shock: :huh:
 
stellar said:
Aragorn said:
Psyche, when I first saw that you had started a thread, I was looking forward to read in your own words what has been going on in your life lately. But, to my surprise you quoted something from a book without giving much context, which seemed like a odd thing coming from someone like you.

There are probably things that you and the elders don't want to share, and I might have missed something, but can I just ask - what happened?
I was wandering the same thing; what happened. I mean at the risk of sounding ignorant, is this the same Psyche, the doc, our old Psyche or someone using the same avatar name? I cannot recognise this person :shock: :huh:
Her post and several that follow it are replies in my thread here, so that's the missing context: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,29241.0.html
It appears a moderator split off this new thread to avoid my thread becoming about Psyche's behavior.

To Psyche:
Taking the first sentences in your replies in your second post we get this:
Psyche said:
I apologize for the lack of sincerity and give thanks for the opportunity that is offered to me with this feedback. God knows I need it.
(Laura quote)
It is airy-fairy. [...]
(Laura quote)
And it does. [...]
(Laura quote)
I don't know what [why] I chose to leave that out. [...]
(Laura quote)
It was incredibly self-pitying and self-calming and I apologize on HowToBe for taking over his thread. [...]
(Laura quote)
Indeed I've been. [...]
(Laura quote)
I couldn't agree more.

I found this pattern interesting when I read your reply as you just kept agreeing, as if you were trying to get approval. You seemed to be running a program like: "Yes, I agree, you've caught me, I'm such a bad person. I'm a total wreck. I just don't know what I'm going to do with myself." Laura never said anything about you as a person, she was pointing out the problems with what you wrote in your post; what you did. But it seems you took it personally and started mechanically agreeing with her and spinning stories rather than really examining your own post and trying to figure out what really happened.

The thing that concerns me most is that I had no idea you were quoting material. If no one else had said anything, I would have taken those as your own words. Furthermore, not knowing better, I would likely have taken it as legitimate advice and tried to put it into practice. Cluttering my thread is really not an issue compared to these facts which you haven't even mentioned in your posts so far. Why would you quote material without naming the source, or at least indicating that you WERE quoting material? You were posting what YOU wanted to hear as if it was good advice for me, and I would have believed it! Doesn't that disturb you? I know it does me, and I'm going to use this as an opportunity to improve my discernment. What I'm NOT going to do is agree with your pity program and call you a bad person, and I don't think anyone else here will either. Think about that, and look at what you are doing.

I have played the same sort of pity game before with my mom, when I was in school. I think I was in middle school at the time. If I'm remembering correctly what I felt, I didn't want to be scolded for what seemed out of my control (it might have been my performance in school; I was slow at schoolwork even though I really tried, which caused shaky motivation and volatile grades, sometimes very good, sometimes on the border of failing). So to try and stop her scolding, I tried "agreeing" with her 'that I was a bad person'. (After all, if you can't do what you should do, you're flawed, broken, "a wreck", right?) She cut it short really quick by telling me it wouldn't work, and that was that. Of course there was still pain, and self-pity, but the fact that I never tried that ploy again is evidence that she stopped me right at the beginning of creating a program.

So, while I haven't read much about the "inner child", it seems maybe the part of you writing all this self-pitying stuff IS your inner child, or maybe more accurately a program invented by your inner child (you as a child)? But it won't help you now, at least not if you want to stop feeding and being food.


Psyche said:
anart said:
Psyche said:
It is airy-fairy. I have so many unsorted feelings that in trying hard to sort them out, they overwhelm my thinking and then I end-up twisting words to self-calm myself and on it goes. It is overwhelming indeed.

Psyche, I think it would help enormously if you would just use your own words. It's a little unsettling to watch you quote passages from books and articles as if you wrote them yourself. Most people who haven't read the books or articles, or have forgotten certain passages, would have no idea that you're quoting verbatim, so they take these words as yours when they are not (even using quotation marks would help!). In short, you're pretending and it's vitally important to not pretend here.

I apologize for the lack of sincerity. In not using my own voice, I just make things worse for everybody involved. Much less to the lies I believed that I wasn't allowed to use my own voice.
See how you made it all about you again? And you seem to have left out the more important half of the advice. Quoting is okay (indispensable, really), but quote accurately; make it clear which parts of your post are quoted, which aren't, and name your sources.

psyche said:
anart said:
psyche said:
It was incredibly self-pitying and self-calming and I apologize on HowToBe for taking over his thread. I saw his username and then connected it with my short code for the book I'm reading "How To Be" and without thinking it twice, I knew I had to force myself to write something, anything down no matter what.

That sounds extremely mechanical. Going through the motions isn't the point, just like using other peoples quotes as if they are your own isn't the point. The point is learning to be Real and the only way to start to head in that direction is to stop pretending to understand things you don't understand and to use your own words, your current understanding, in order to "grow it".

And this, I want the most. I want to outgrow the self-limitations I had imposed upon myself. A breakthrough. I want to be there for others and I know I'll never achieve it as long as I hold on to my own chains. I don't want to be so mechanical. I don't want to believe the lies I tell myself and which drag me down every time I take a step to move along. I want to be there for others when it is required the most.
More of the same program running, I think. "I want, I want, I want." Is it just me, or is there an implied "but I'm too broken" in there? Getting this program under control would be a step towards all of those things, OSIT.

Anyway, that's my take, for what it's worth.
 
Stellar, Aragorn and others: As I have written elsewhere:

Laura said:
People should remember that just because someone is associated with us here, or have spent time with us here, it does not automatically make that person some sort of wise and advanced individual. The fact is, very often, people come here because they are trying to escape from life and they think we won't figure it out. Or they are trying to worm their way into a position of dominance and think I was born yesterday. And still other situations involve people we feel are sincere but who are having a great difficulty of some sort and they come to spend time working on themselves. Others come because they really ARE pretty wise and we just simply enjoy their company. And some come simply because they are working on a project that we are supporting, though we know in advance that they are not, and never will be, able to do "The Work." But their expertise or services are needed.

So, it's not a good idea to make assumptions. Each and every one of you should evaluate your own interactions with such individuals and if you get a red flag, you should tell us about it.

When there is a parting of a person from this house, it is not always a "parting of the ways". Sometimes it is just realized that the level at which we operate here is so intense that it is not suitable for everyone. When such situations occur, when it is realized that an individual either WANTS or really needs to "go back to an ordinary life" we don't think that it is appropriate to dissect the dynamic unless and until they are ready - and capable - to talk about it themselves.

Of course, if someone leaves and goes on the attack, we will immediately publish everything. But otherwise, it should be understood that there are quite a few people who just couldn't cut the mustard living in a high-stress environment where literally everything is open and there are no sacred cows. If you screw up, it gets discussed at breakfast, if you are obviously lying to yourself, you get told to your face in a matter of fact way, if your behavior is making everyone else miserable, you get called on it and suggestions are made as to how to master yourself. Not everyone can deal with that.

Let me speak generally now: Sometimes it isn't so easy to figure out what is wrong in a community environment. Sometimes it only dawns on everyone gradually that, for some reason, everyone is "walking on eggshells" around a single individual. That is ALWAYS a bad sign. Generally, that comes about because of overt or covert aggressiveness. When it is overt, you walk on eggshells because you don't want to make the person angry because it is unpleasant and usually, when that happens and you call the person on the behavior, they end up doing the "pity trip" and you then walk on eggshells because you don't want to wound them where they are wounded (as they claim). The covert aggressiveness generally skips the anger step and goes directly to the "I'm so pitiful because I'm so wounded and if you say this or that to me, or do this or that, I'll close up and pout for weeks."

That is intolerable in a community because such individuals drain a LOT of energy from everyone who is constrained by the "walking on eggshells" phenomenon. If a person can't get ahold of themselves and learn to give and take in a give-and-take environment, if everyone else has to compromise to that individual, then it is time for a parting of the ways until such a person can learn, perhaps by some significant suffering, to master themselves in the most basic ways.

All that being said, if Psyche wishes to address her issues here, that is right and proper, since that is what the forum is for. But, as with any other member, we hope that she will be able to do so without high drama or feeding. Certainly, others may learn from her problems and experiences, and that would give some value to them.
 
Aragorn said:
There are probably things that you and the elders don't want to share, and I might have missed something, but can I just ask - what happened?

Don't you see a contradiction in the above? You claim to understand that there are things that others don't want to share (I'm not saying that's the case, I'm saying you think this is the case) yet you decide to go ahead and ask for those things to be shared? And then, rather than be specific in your question, you play it safe by asking a very non-specific question, which puts the onus on others to try and figure out what you want to know and what you actually mean by "what happened".

A rather inconsiderate approach to take overall.
 
Perceval said:
Aragorn said:
There are probably things that you and the elders don't want to share, and I might have missed something, but can I just ask - what happened?

Don't you see a contradiction in the above? You claim to understand that there are things that others don't want to share (I'm not saying that's the case, I'm saying you think this is the case) yet you decide to go ahead and ask for those things to be shared? And then, rather than be specific in your question, you play it safe by asking a very non-specific question, which puts the onus on others to try and figure out what you want to know and what you actually mean by "what happened".

A rather inconsiderate approach to take overall.

You're absolutely right, the whole sentence is contradictory. I guess my curiosity, as to what happened to one of the members that has contributed a great deal to the forum (especially to the diet and health section), got the best of me. I just wanted to get an overall understanding what happened, without personal details. But reading Laura's post above explains a lot.

Sorry for my nosiness :-[
 
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