How Not To Be

[Gimpy]

When there is a parting of a person from this house, it is not always a "parting of the ways". Sometimes it is just realized that the level at which we operate here is so intense that it is not suitable for everyone. When such situations occur, when it is realized that an individual either WANTS or really needs to "go back to an ordinary life" we don't think that it is appropriate to dissect the dynamic unless and until they are ready - and capable - to talk about it themselves.

Of course, if someone leaves and goes on the attack, we will immediately publish everything. But otherwise, it should be understood that there are quite a few people who just couldn't cut the mustard living in a high-stress environment where literally everything is open and there are no sacred cows. If you screw up, it gets discussed at breakfast, if you are obviously lying to yourself, you get told to your face in a matter of fact way, if your behavior is making everyone else miserable, you get called on it and suggestions are made as to how to master yourself. Not everyone can deal with that.

Vacations can become important when living this way. osit. I don't know many people who could do this without a break every three months or so.

Let me speak generally now: Sometimes it isn't so easy to figure out what is wrong in a community environment. Sometimes it only dawns on everyone gradually that, for some reason, everyone is "walking on eggshells" around a single individual. That is ALWAYS a bad sign. Generally, that comes about because of overt or covert aggressiveness. When it is overt, you walk on eggshells because you don't want to make the person angry because it is unpleasant and usually, when that happens and you call the person on the behavior, they end up doing the "pity trip" and you then walk on eggshells because you don't want to wound them where they are wounded (as they claim). The covert aggressiveness generally skips the anger step and goes directly to the "I'm so pitiful because I'm so wounded and if you say this or that to me, or do this or that, I'll close up and pout for weeks."

Another point where 'distance' via a vacation would come in handy? When people are going out on vacation and coming back in again refreshed, they'll be able to see things that 'living in the crucible' makes harder.

Ya'll probably do this all ready, it just came to mind when I read this through the second time.

 

[Laura]

I guess my curiosity, as to what happened to one of the members that has contributed a great deal to the forum (especially to the diet and health section), got the best of me. I just wanted to get an overall understanding what happened, without personal details. But reading Laura's post above explains a lot.

Sorry for my nosiness

It's completely understandable. And while we do wish to share all that we learn in our experiments in interpersonal dynamics, we also have an obligation to those who are working and learning to afford them the space in which to grow when necessary. I think you - and everyone else - can appreciate this policy because it would apply to you as well in a similar situation. You, and everyone, can be confident that we will respect your privacy and any private information you convey to us as long as you do not attack us and violate OUR privacy. Apart from that, where possible, we wish for everyone to share and learn from each other though, of course, there are SOME situations where the wounding and memories are just too awful and/or painful to share and those sorts of things stay private forever.

Let me also point out that we, here, do often have inside knowledge about forum members that guide our responses to them and this may sometimes puzzle other members who don't have the whole picture. It would be great if EVERYTHING could be shared, but it can't for the above-mentioned reasons. Rest assured, however, that we share everything we CAN within the bounds of respecting the rights and wishes of others who demonstrate that they, too, respect us in return.

 

[Laura]

Vacations can become important when living this way. osit. I don't know many people who could do this without a break every three months or so.


Another point where 'distance' via a vacation would come in handy? When people are going out on vacation and coming back in again refreshed, they'll be able to see things that 'living in the crucible' makes harder.

Ya'll probably do this all ready, it just came to mind when I read this through the second time.

Yes, and no.

On the "yes" side: We have SENT some people away because there was something they wanted or needed to do and it seemed like a good idea for them to go and test their new-found knowledge. In those cases, they can't wait to get back because they feel surrounded by insincere people (which is the case) and it drains them to deal with that.

On the "no" side: The only people we observed who NEEDED "vacations from truth" turned out to be pathological. In other words, living around sincere people who don't BS you every minute was draining to them and affected their behavior quite negatively.

We had a great MI6 agent with us for much of 18 months or so and he was not only entertaining, the experience was highly instructive. However, despite the fact that he declared that he wanted to be here and "work on himself" diligently, he had "family demands" that came up about every 6 weeks that took about three weeks to resolve. He would come back all refreshed from doing god-knows-what (based on observations, it was probably something like "wine and women") and able to pretend and parrot all the right words and phrases for about a week before the slow deterioration began to set in. It was fascinating to observe.

 

[Joe]

You're absolutely right, the whole sentence is contradictory. I guess my curiosity, as to what happened to one of the members that has contributed a great deal to the forum (especially to the diet and health section), got the best of me. I just wanted to get an overall understanding what happened, without personal details. But reading Laura's post above explains a lot.

Sorry for my nosiness

It's understandable, and there is nothing wrong with asking. My point was that, had you reflected on the situation a little more deeply, you probably would have or could have phrased your comment/question differently.

 

[shellycheval]

Looking back on Psyche's posting the last few weeks, it appears that she went from posting in her usual, kind and thorough Dr. manner, providing helpful advice on health issues, to rather suddenly posting in multiple threads, responses to people's emotional issues. The tone of her postings became a little intense, dramatic, and urgent in a way I have not noticed before.

Her post to me a couple of weeks ago was surprising, but very helpful to me. In it she made several quotes, but clearly identified the sources. Her more recent posts have an even more intense, passionate tone--almost a desperation to help (to put her focus on others rather than herself), and the lack of citations to her sources.

This lack of acknowledgement of her quoted materials is a huge red flag for me, whether it is intentional plagiarism or carelessness due to being emotionally fraught, it bespeaks of a lack of presence of mind and huge departure from her former careful, scholarly writing.

Again, Psyche, I salute your willingness to tough out this difficult period here on the Forum and wish you the best of luck in your process of self-discovery. For the rest of us--"all is lessons."
shellycheval

 

[anart]

On the "yes" side: We have SENT some people away because there was something they wanted or needed to do and it seemed like a good idea for them to go and test their new-found knowledge. In those cases, they can't wait to get back because they feel surrounded by insincere people (which is the case) and it drains them to deal with that.

On the "no" side: The only people we observed who NEEDED "vacations from truth" turned out to be pathological. In other words, living around sincere people who don't BS you every minute was draining to them and affected their behavior quite negatively.

Exactly. I think it's really important to recognize the fact that when you really want to Work on yourself - sincerely and passionately - there is no need for a vacation from those who help you do that. It's really all about the Aim in your life. Vacations in the way you seem to be thinking about them, Gimpy, would rather act like buffers on the sincere person trying to work on themselves and that's the opposite of the Aim.

For the pathological types, though, vacations are perfect because they can wallow in whatever they want for a while before returning to put the mask back up.

 

[Gimpy]

On the "yes" side: We have SENT some people away because there was something they wanted or needed to do and it seemed like a good idea for them to go and test their new-found knowledge. In those cases, they can't wait to get back because they feel surrounded by insincere people (which is the case) and it drains them to deal with that.

Geez...I feel that way buying groceries. ;D This would be along the lines of "Go and see" or "Try this.."? Makes sense.

A vacation, in my understanding, is a trip to get away from people and into nature, where there is no technology or other 'monkey-business'. Its a total 'culture break.' That kind of break lets every part of a person 'breathe'.

On the "no" side: The only people we observed who NEEDED "vacations from truth" turned out to be pathological. In other words, living around sincere people who don't BS you every minute was draining to them and affected their behavior quite negatively.

No, not a "vacation from the truth"...a vacation from constant scrutiny. (The only 'vacations from truth' I'm aware of are not healthy examples. Besides...does that actually happen? How does a person do that without cracking their heads open?)

That sense of scrutiny can vary with the person, dependent on level of awareness.

We had a great MI6 agent with us for much of 18 months or so and he was not only entertaining, the experience was highly instructive.

Is it a sign of pathology to tire of constant scrutiny of whatever kind?

 

[Joe]

Is it a sign of pathology to tire of constant scrutiny of whatever kind?

Not necessarily; depends on the type of scrutiny. But when it is a general environment of 'scrutiny' where we feel the pressure of having to exert more efforts to hide certain things that we would prefer not be revealed, then it is, at least, a sign that there are limits to the amount of truth we can handle. In some cases, it can be a sign of a general aversion to the truth and a preference for lies and illusion. Depends on the specific case.

 

[Gimpy]

I think it's really important to recognize the fact that when you really want to Work on yourself - sincerely and passionately - there is no need for a vacation from those who help you do that.

Where ever you go, there you are. There's no getting away from the truth.

And I've yet to meet a human being that did not need to take time away from a group, no matter what aim is moving them.

Vacations in the way you seem to be thinking about them, Gimpy, would rather act like buffers on the sincere person trying to work on themselves and that's the opposite of the Aim.

What?

 

[anart]

On the "yes" side: We have SENT some people away because there was something they wanted or needed to do and it seemed like a good idea for them to go and test their new-found knowledge. In those cases, they can't wait to get back because they feel surrounded by insincere people (which is the case) and it drains them to deal with that.

Geez...I feel that way buying groceries. ;D This would be along the lines of "Go and see" or "Try this.."? Makes sense.

A vacation, in my understanding, is a trip to get away from people and into nature, where there is no technology or other 'monkey-business'. Its a total 'culture break.' That kind of break lets every part of a person 'breathe'.

For some people, being around the Truth and others who hold nothing more valuable than the Truth - most especially as applied to the self - allows every part of them to breathe. It IS a vacation from the insanity of this planet.

No, not a "vacation from the truth"...a vacation from constant scrutiny. (The only 'vacations from truth' I'm aware of are not healthy examples. Besides...does that actually happen? How does a person do that without cracking their heads open?)

That sense of scrutiny can vary with the person, dependent on level of awareness.Is it a sign of pathology to tire of constant scrutiny of whatever kind?

I don't think the word scrutiny is applicable. The word 'help' would be better. After all, it's all about a person's Aim - if a person wants to hide in their illusion and lies to the self, then help might feel like scrutiny, but it's not really scrutiny at all. It's a life line to Truth and what could be more freeing than that, especially after having lived a life drowning in lies from others and from the self?

I really think it comes down to what is important to a person. It's not about scrutiny so much as it is about life.

 

[anart]

almost a desperation to help (to put her focus on others rather than herself),

Perhaps it's more that she was trying to put the focus on herself in a positive way. If she posts using others quotes as her own in order to appear to have all the answers and be the wise and giving Psyche, then that's a lot of positive attention coming her way. Your response to her was glowing praise, which can be quite a motivator. Just something to consider.

 

[anart]

I think it's really important to recognize the fact that when you really want to Work on yourself - sincerely and passionately - there is no need for a vacation from those who help you do that.

Where ever you go, there you are. There's no getting away from the truth.

And I've yet to meet a human being that did not need to take time away from a group, no matter what aim is moving them.

Interesting. You seem to be completely misunderstanding me here. When I say Aim - with a capital A - I'm referring to esoteric Work and all that entails. I'm not referring to people caught up in the day to day illusions of 3D STS reality, the people who are sound asleep. I'm referring to the Work as Gurdjieff describes it. If a person is sincere about that, about becoming Real, then it's no more unusual to want to be in an environment that fosters that than it is unusual for a concert pianist to want to be around a piano.

 

[Gimpy]

For some people, being around the Truth and others who hold nothing more valuable than the Truth - most especially as applied to the self - allows every part of them to breathe. It IS a vacation from the insanity of this planet.

That wouldn't change the human facts of the matter: people get on each others nerves, and can benefit from a 'walk-about' periodically.

 

[anart]

For some people, being around the Truth and others who hold nothing more valuable than the Truth - most especially as applied to the self - allows every part of them to breathe. It IS a vacation from the insanity of this planet.

That wouldn't change the human facts of the matter: people get on each others nerves, and can benefit from a 'walk-about' periodically.

And what if learning how not to be run by ones own irritations with others is part of the process of becoming Real? Then going on a 'walk-about' rather destroys the whole point...

 

[Laura]

A vacation, in my understanding, is a trip to get away from people and into nature, where there is no technology or other 'monkey-business'. Its a total 'culture break.' That kind of break lets every part of a person 'breathe'.


No, not a "vacation from the truth"...a vacation from constant scrutiny. (The only 'vacations from truth' I'm aware of are not healthy examples. Besides...does that actually happen? How does a person do that without cracking their heads open?)

That sense of scrutiny can vary with the person, dependent on level of awareness.


Is it a sign of pathology to tire of constant scrutiny of whatever kind?

Nobody is under constant scrutiny. The size of the house and property make each person able to have their own space and withdraw whenever they want/need to. Plus, going for walks, bike rides, making trips here or there to do various things, also comes with the territory. But then, when a person seeks to withdraw a majority of the time and do not WANT to interact with others, it does get noticed.

The plain fact is that all of us here ENJOY each others' company enormously and we enjoy the heck out of discussing things with total openness, no games, no pretense, each being perfectly willing to hear another say "oh, that's just a narrative you are making up because it makes you feel better..." responding with: "Yeah, you are right... so, what is the truth...?" and on it goes. Everything is said with kindness and concern, but still, straightforward and without manipulation. Obviously, people who thrive on being covert and manipulating do not survive such an atmosphere very well.