I don't get it.... why not destroy evil?

[iamthatis]

Desire is something STS, the very fact of wanting to go to a STO reality truncates it.

Desire is STS, yeah, but I wouldn't say wanting to go to an STO reality truncates desire. Desire for an STO reality is still a desire, but it is 'desire pointed in a good direction'.

Desire is like a vehicle - a Streetcar Named Desire. It can be used to go on a adrenaline-rush joyride, or it can be used on the commute to another day of Work. Very different journeys, but I think it is essentially the same vehicle.

 

[Fluffy]

Ricardo, I must admit that I have difficulty in comprehending some of your comments, such as above. Can you please rephrase them?

Jeeze, I’m glad I’m not the only one, I tried to comprehend that comment for about half an hour then decided to watch whatever was in my YouTube feed because my brain was muddled. I really wanted to reply but I didn’t know how.

 

[Fluffy]

Desire is something STS, the very fact of wanting to go to a STO reality truncates it.
Eventually everything we do, no matter how aligned it is with STO, does not mean that we are contributing to it suggesting that our desires-desires about our 4d STO ascension come true.
Those who have to pass to 4D STO will do so and those who do not will not pass even if they have read every point and how of the books and Cs sessions.

Every soulled human on the planet right now is a 4D candidate, there’s no free pass though so it becomes ‘who you are and what you see’ … is frequency resonance vibration that counts, and the cosmos is offering up these ‘upgrades’ in a multitude of ways. I for one have not lost faith in the collective consciousness to awaken, and even snap awake just before the clock strikes!!
This is the closing of a grand cycle, the potential for a global group ascension, unlike other harvest within the cycle.

 

[Fluffy]

Desire is something STS, the very fact of wanting to go to a STO reality truncates it.


Well think about it like this, I’m going to use parenting as an example because there is almost nil STS when it comes to desiring good health, comfortable environment, honest education, supportive community, clean air, water, nourishment, etc for your children so that THEY have a life where they can follow their hearts desires.
And as a parent we desire to offer those things.
I might go outside and ask the sun its opinion on this.

 

[Mark7]

or it can be used on the commute to another day of Work

I remember the C's mentioned something about the hunger for, or thirst for knowledge being almost a divine thing. Ha, some people may decide to go back to school after a late 20s or early 30s breakdown/crisis. Perhaps learning to put off quick gratification in lieu of working hard for a future goal of greater significance and meaning. I guess a lot of older people really Grok that all there is, is lessons - at least in their own way, and wish they had studied harder.

 

[Hok]

It is reasonable that many of you are practitioners of the 4th path and followers of Gurdjieff since the rules of this forum say so.
I have also made observations regarding those who have been around for a long time, here I see that the recurring thought in general is expressed in line with what the Cs say or in Laura's research, but let me tell you something, I have observed that the administrators exclude the Newbies for various reasons but not always right to do so should at least consider warning that someone would be blocked and things could be resolved another way.
It seems that Dario was excluded that's why I don't see any mad comments.
Real guys, those who are administrators, can I ask you to be more tolerant just a little?

 

[Jones]

I don't know about your question.
But suddenly, by the way, Dario has already been banned from the forum? I never saw another comment from that person.

If you mean @Darius1234, then no, that member has not been banned from the forum.

It is reasonable that many of you are practitioners of the 4th path and followers of Gurdjieff since the rules of this forum say so.
I have also made observations regarding those who have been around for a long time, here I see that the recurring thought in general is expressed in line with what the Cs say or in Laura's research, but let me tell you something, I have observed that the administrators exclude the Newbies for various reasons but not always right to do so should at least consider warning that someone would be blocked and things could be resolved another way.
It seems that Dario was excluded that's why I don't see any mad comments.
Real guys, those who are administrators, can I ask you to be more tolerant just a little?

See above.

 

[bozadi]

As for the issue of "desire", I want to copy here some of Maharaj's explanations from the book "I'm That":

M: Desire is the memory of pleasure and fear is the memory of pain. Both make the mind restless. Moments of pleasure are merely gaps in the stream of pain.

Q: I am full of desires and want them fulfilled. How am I to get what I want?

M: Do you deserve what you desire? In some way or other you have to work for the fulfilment of your desires. Put in energy and wait for the results.

Q: Where am I to get the energy?

M: Desire itself is energy.

Q: Then why does not every desire get fulfilled?

M: Maybe it was not strong enough and lasting.

Q: Yes, that is my problem. I want things, but I am lazy when it comes to action.

M: When your desire is not clear nor strong, it cannot take shape. Besides, if your desires are personal, for your own enjoyment, the energy you give them is necessarily limited; it cannot be more than what you have.

Q: Yet, often ordinary persons do attain what they desire.

M: After desiring it very much and for a long time. Even then, their achievements are limited.

Q: And what about unselfish desires?

M: When you desire the common good, the whole world desires with you. Make humanity's desire your own and work for it. There you cannot fail.

Q: Humanity is God’s work, not mine. I am concerned with myself. Have I not the right to see my legitimate desires fulfilled? They will hurt no one. My desires are legitimate. They are right desires, why don’t they come true?

M: Desires are right or wrong according to circumstances; it depends on how you look at them. It is only for the individual that a distinction between right and wrong is valid.

Q: What are the guide-lines for such distinction? How am I to know which of my desires are right and which are wrong?

M: In your case desires that lead to sorrow are wrong and those which lead to happiness are right. But you must not forget others. Their sorrow and happiness also count.

Q: All I want to know is how to deal with the world's sorrows.

M: You have created them out of your own desires and fears, you deal with them. All is due to your having forgotten your own being. Having given reality to the picture on the screen, you love its people and suffer for them and seek to save them. It is just not so. You must begin with yourself. There is no other way.

Q: The memory of my wonderful experiences haunts me. I want them back.

M: Because you want them back, you cannot have them. The state of craving for anything blocks all deeper experience. Nothing of value can happen to a mind which knows exactly what it wants. For nothing the mind can visualise and want is of much value.

Q: Then what is worth wanting?

M: Want the best. The highest happiness, the greatest freedom. Desirelessness is the highest bliss.

Q: Freedom from desire is not the freedom I want. I want the freedom to fulfil my longings.

M: You are free to fulfil your longings. As a matter of fact, you are doing nothing else.

Q: I try, but there are obstacles which leave me frustrated.

M: Overcome them.

Q: I cannot, I am too weak.

M: What makes you weak? What is weakness? Others fulfil their desires, why don't you?

Q: I must be lacking energy.

M: What happened to your energy? Where did it go? Did you not scatter it over so many contradictory desires and pursuits? You don't have an infinite supply of energy.

Q: Why not?

M: Your aims are small and low. They do not call for more. Only God's energy is infinite -- because He wants nothing for Himself. Be like Him and all your desires will be fulfilled. The higher your aims and vaster your desires, the more energy you will have for their fulfilment. Desire the good of all and the universe will work with you. But if you want your own pleasure, you must earn it the hard way. Before desiring, deserve.

Q: Yes, I see that I am the witness, the awareness itself. But in which way does it profit me?

M: What a question! What kind of profit do you expect? To know what you are, is it not good enough?

Q: What are the uses of self-knowledge?

M: It helps you to understand what you are not and keeps you free from false ideas, desires and actions.

Q: If I am the witness only, what do right and wrong matter?

M: What helps you to know yourself is right. What prevents, is wrong. To know one's real self is bliss, to forget -- is sorrow.

Q: Will meditation help me to reach your state?

M: Meditation will help you to find your bonds, loosen them, untie them and cast your moorings. When you are no longer attached to anything, you have done your share. The rest will be done for you.

Q: By whom?

M: By the same power that brought you so far, that prompted your heart to desire truth and your mind to seek it. It is the same power that keeps you alive. You may call it Life or the Supreme.

M: Desires that destroy their subjects, or objects, or do not subside on satisfaction are self-contradictory and cannot be fulfilled. Only desires motivated by love, goodwill and compassion are beneficial to both the subject and object and can be fully satisfied.

Q: Are you living in the Supreme Unknown?

M: Where else?

Q: What makes you say so?

M: No desire ever arises in my mind.

Q: Are you then unconscious?

M: Of course not! I am fully conscious, but since no desire or fear enters my mind, there is perfect silence.

Q: Who knows the silence?

M: Silence knows itself. It is the silence of the silent mind, when passions and desires are silenced.

Q: Do you experience desires occasionally?

M: Desires are just waves in the mind. You know a wave when you see one. A desire is just a thing among many. I feel no urge to satisfy it, no action needs be taken on it. Freedom from desire means this: the compulsion to satisfy is absent.

Q: Why do desires arise at all?

M: Because you imagine that you were born, and that you will die if you do not take care of your body. Desire for embodied existence is the root-cause of trouble.

M: Why desire at all? Desiring a state of freedom from desire will not set you free. Nothing can set you free, because you are free. See yourself with desireless clarity, that is all.

M: All desire has its source in the self. It is all a matter of choosing the right desire.

Q: What is right and what is wrong varies with habit and custom. Standards vary with societies.

M: Discard all traditional standards. Leave them to the hypocrites. Only what liberates you from desire and fear and wrong ideas is good. As long as you worry about sin and virtue you will have no peace.

Q: I grant that sin and virtue are social norms. But there may be also spiritual sins and virtues. I mean by spiritual the absolute. Is there such a thing as absolute sin or absolute virtue?

M: Sin and virtue refer to a person only. Without a sinful or virtuous person what is sin or virtue? At the level of the absolute there are no persons; the ocean of pure awareness is neither virtuous nor sinful. Sin and virtue are invariably relative.

Q: Must Life have a body for its self-expression?

M: The body seeks to live. It is not life that needs the body; it is the body that needs life.

Q: Does life do it deliberately?

M: Does love act deliberately? Yes and no. Life is love and love is life. What keeps the body together but love? What is desire, but love of the self? What is fear but the urge to protect? And what is knowledge but the love of truth? The means and forms may be wrong, but the motive behind is always love -- love of the me and the mine. The me and the mine may be small, or may explode and embrace the universe, but love remains.

M: Weak desires can be removed by introspection and meditation, but strong, deep-rooted ones must be fulfilled and their fruits, sweet or bitter, tasted.

M: … The Yogi's life is governed by a single desire -- to find the Truth

Q: Many teachers have I followed and studied many doctrines, yet none gave me what I wanted.

M: The desire to find the self will be surely fulfilled, provided you want nothing else. But you must be honest with yourself and really want nothing else. If in the meantime you want many other things and are engaged in their pursuit, your main purpose may be delayed until you grow wiser and cease being torn between contradictory urges. Go within, without swerving, without ever looking outward.

M: What is the root of pain? Ignorance of yourself. What is the root of desire? The urge to find yourself. All creation toils for its self and will not rest until it returns to it.

Q: When will it return?

M: It can return whenever you want it.

Q: And the world?

M: You can take it with you.

Q: Must I wait with helping the world until I reach perfection?

M: By all means help the world. You will not help much, but the effort will make you grow. There is nothing wrong in trying to help the world.

Q: Surely there were people, common people, who helped greatly.

M: When the time comes for the world to be helped, some people are given the will, the wisdom and the power to cause great changes.

M: I was in the same position myself. But I trusted my Guru and he proved right. Trust me, if you can. Keep in mind what I tell you: desire nothing, for you lack nothing. The very seeking prevents you from finding.

Q: You seem to be so very indifferent to everything!

M: I am not indifferent, I am impartial. I give no preference to the me and the mine. A basket of earth and a basket of jewels are both unwanted. Life and death are all the same to me.

Q: There are many who strive for self-knowledge earnestly, but with scant results. What may be the cause of it?

M: They have not investigated the sources of knowledge sufficiently, their sensations, feelings and thoughts they do not know well enough. This may be one cause of delay. The other: some desires may still be alive.

M: The desire for truth is the highest of all desires, yet, it is still a desire. All desires must be given up to the real to be. Remember that you are. This is your working capital. Rotate it and there will be much profit.

Q: I want to find reality.

M: What price are you willing to pay for reality? Any price?

Q: While in theory I am ready to pay any price, in actual life again and again I am being prompted to behave in ways which come in between me and reality. Desire carries me away.

M: Increase and widen your desires till nothing but reality can fulfil them. It is not desire that is wrong, but its narrowness and smallness. Desire is devotion. By all means be devoted to the real, the infinite, the eternal heart of being. Transform desire into love. All you want is to be happy. All your desires, whatever they may be, are expressions of your longing for happiness. Basically, you wish yourself well.

M: The desire to put an end to all desires is a most peculiar desire, just like the fear of being afraid is a most peculiar fear. One stops you from grabbing and the other from running. You may use the same words, but the states are not the same. The man who seeks realisation is not addicted to desires; he is a seeker who goes against desire, not with it. A general longing for liberation is only the beginning; to find the proper means and use them is the next step. The seeker has only one goal in view: to find his own true being. Of all desires it is the most ambitious, for nothing and nobody can satisfy it; the seeker and the sought are one and the search alone matters.

Q: The search will come to an end. The seeker will remain.

M: No, the seeker will dissolve, the search will remain. The search is the ultimate and timeless reality.

Q: Search means lacking, wanting, incompleteness and imperfection.

M: No, it means refusal and rejection of the incomplete and the imperfect. The search for reality is itself the movement of reality. In a way all search is for the real bliss, or the bliss of the real. But here we mean by search the search for oneself as the root of being conscious, as the light beyond the mind. This search will never end, while the restless craving for all else must end, for real progress to take place. One has to understand that the search for reality, or God, or Guru and the search for the self are the same; when one is found, all are found. When 'I am' and 'God is' become in your mind indistinguishable, then something will happen and you will know without a trace of doubt that God is because you are, you are because God is. The two are one.

 

[bozadi]

Interesting and lovely parallelism, I think:

M: ... the seeker and the sought are one and the search alone matters.

Q: The search will come to an end. The seeker will remain.

M: No, the seeker will dissolve, the search will remain. The search is the ultimate and timeless reality.

Q: Search means lacking, wanting, incompleteness and imperfection.

M: No, it means refusal and rejection of the incomplete and the imperfect. The search for reality is itself the movement of reality.

...be a good workman ...Think of yourself as a debugging unit. And you're going to help debug the universe.

 

[Fluffy]

It is reasonable that many of you are practitioners of the 4th path and followers of Gurdjieff since the rules of this forum say so.
I have also made observations regarding those who have been around for a long time, here I see that the recurring thought in general is expressed in line with what the Cs say or in Laura's research, but let me tell you something, I have observed that the administrators exclude the Newbies for various reasons but not always right to do so should at least consider warning that someone would be blocked and things could be resolved another way.
It seems that Dario was excluded that's why I don't see any mad comments.
Real guys, those who are administrators, can I ask you to be more tolerant just a little?

Where does it say that it’s a rule to follow the 4th way? Gurdjieff’s teachings are a part of a broader understanding of working on the self and incorporated as such, not as a solo tool for development. I attended a few meetings here where I live (that had nothing to do with this forum) and the community of those followers was certainly not my jam (to say it politely) so I take what I do out of the 4th way teachings and leave out what doesn’t resonate.

What I see from this group here on the forum is a desire and strive for co-linearity, everyone comes here in the beginning and if they feel like they fit then they stay and are only ever excluded if they do it them self or if they show them self to not have that common purpose we all share.
All opinions and (most) topics are welcome for discussion.
Being a new member was really hard for me too. I was very inactive for years because of some things that were said that my ego at the time couldn’t handle. I’m glad I took off my blinkers and kept learning so I could eventually see that it was kind of like a test of my fortitude, resilience and, above all, trust in the universe that bought me here in the first place.

You’re very welcome Hok, please keep commenting and sharing your views, insights and inspirations. Darius is also welcome too, he started this thread that has become a thought provoking discussion and us here who have been participating in it are having a good ole time sharing our thoughts.