Imitation Fourth Way Groups Started by Gurdjieff Rejects

beau said:
Well, the whole point of the exercise is to see what YOU would do if you were in Heinz's dilemma. You don't need to project a dozen different motivations onto Heinz, just answer the question.
Oh. I didn't understand that was the purpose. My apologies. I was responding to the question "Should Heinz have done that?"

So, OK, what would *I* do in Heinz's situation? I would definitely have NO problem in rejecting "conventional morality" in favour of relieving the suffering of another creature; I wouldn't think twice about it, and would have no problem sleeping at night after doing so. I would never let such morality stand in the way of doing anything that I, after much soul-searching, considered the right and just and compassionate thing to do. That's not just hypothetical conjecture on my part. I base that prediction on my own behaviour to date.

However, I wouldn't automatically view death as something someone would need "saving" from. I'd first spend a great deal of time with my spouse trying to mutually discern what lesson the universe was offering us in the situation -- the opportunity to fight for life, in order to better appreciate its value? or the opportunity to die with grace and dignity, in order to move on to the next stage of existence? -- and then base my actions on that.
 
Here is revelant chapter from James Blair's et al. The Psychopath Emotion and the Brain discussing impairment of moral reasoning in psychopaths and persons with ADD syndrome, Harrison was writing about.
Psychopath Emotion and the Brain said:
Moral reasoning in individuals with psychopathy
Aversive conditioning, passive avoidance, and empathic responsiveness are processes that have been assumed to play a role in the moral socialization of the healthy developing child (Eysenck, 1964; Hoffman, 1988; Trasler, 1973). If these processes are dysfunctional in individuals with psychopathy, we might anticipate dysfunction in moral reasoning in individuals with psychopathy.
Typically, two paradigms have been used to assess moral reasoning in individuals with psychopathy: those of Kohlberg (Colby and Kohlberg, 1987; Kohlberg, 1969) and Turiel (1983). In Kohlberg's paradigm, the participant is first presented with a series of vignettes describing moral dilemmas and then asked how the protagonist should act in the dilemma situation and why they would act in this way. An example dilemma is described below:

In Europe, a woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging 10 times what the drug cost him to make. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $1,000, which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist his wife was dying, and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said "No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it." So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's store to steal the drug lor his wife.

Within this paradigm, the participant's judgment of whether Heinz should or should not steal is unimportant. What is important, with regards to determining the individual's level of moral reasoning, is the complexity of the participant's reasons as to why Heinz should or should not steal the drug. Crudely stated, the more complex the participant's reasoning, the higher their level of moral reasoning.
It has been consistently demonstrated that the moral reasoning of delinquents is at a lower level relative to comparison individuals (Blasi, 1980). However, it is much less clear that the moral reasoning of individuals with psychopathy is impaired as indexed by this task. Thus, although there have been some reports of individuals with psychopathy showing lower levels of moral reasoning than comparison non-psychopathic offenders (Campagna and Harter, 1975; Fodor, 1973; Jurkovic and Prentice, 1977), other studies have indicated that while the moral reasoning of delinquent psychopathic and non-psychopathic individuals is lower than that of individuals with no forensic history, there is no difference in level of moral reasoning between psychopathic and non-psychopathic offenders (Lee and Prentice, 1988; Trevethan and Walker, 1989). Also, there are considerable difficulties with the interpretation of performance on Kohlberg's paradigm. As noted above, the participant's level of moral reasoning is determined not by their decision as to how the protagonist should behave, but rather by the complexity of the justifications of their decision . Kohlberg's framework can therefore be considered to assess the individual's moral concepts, which is a reflection of their moral semantic memory. Indeed, according to Kohlberg, these conceptual structures drive moral reasoning and behavior (Colby and Kohlberg, 1987; Kohlberg and Kramer, 1969; Kohlberg et al., 1983). However, it is unclear that this is really the case. In fact, we will argue explicitly that this is not the case. Instead, if Kohlberg's moral judgment interview simply indexes the com¬plexity level of an individual's semantic memory, we might expect performance on the measure to be highly sensitive to 1Q and socioeconomic status (SES). Some measures of IQ specifically index the individual's semantic memory to provide the assessment of intelligence. Given that IQ and SES do indeed predict level of moral reasoning, it could be argued that Kohlberg's measure indexes IQ und the individual's cultural experiences rather than their moral reasoning per se (Shweder et al., 1987).
Turiel's paradigm is referred to as the moral/conventional distinction task (Turiel, 1983; see also Nucci and Nucci, 1982; Smetana, 1993). In this task, the (participant is presented with stories involving moral and conventional transgressions. Moral transgression are actions defined by their consequences for the rights and welfare of other individuals (e.g., hitting another individual, damaging another individual's property) and convenlional transgressions are defined by their consequences for the social order (e.g., talking in class, dressing in opposite-sex clothes). The participant is then asked to make a series of judgments about these transgressions (e.g., "How bad is the transgression?" "Why is the transgression bad to do?" and, crucially, "If there was no rule about people [doing the transgression], would it be OK to [do the transgression]?"). Healthy individuals distinguish between moral and conventional transgressions (Smetana, 1993; Turiel, 1983). The distinction between moral and conventional transgressions is made from the age of 39 months (Smetana and Braeges, 1990) and is found across cultures (Nucci et al, 1983; Song et al, 1987). There are several ways in which people differentiate between moral and conventional transgressions. Thus, first of all, people generally judge moral transgressions to be more serious than conventional transgressions (Nucci, 1981; Smetana and Braeges, 1990; Turiel, 1983). Second, people give different reasons for justifying why moral and conventional transgressions are wrong. Thus, for moral transgressions, people refer to the distress of the victim (i.e., it is wrong to hit someone because it will hurt them), but for conventional transgressions, people refer to the social disorder that may ensue (i.e., it is wrong to talk in class because you are there to learn) (Smetana, 1993; Turiel, 1983). Third, and more importantly, modifying the rule conditions (for example, by an authority figure removing the prohibition against the act) only affects the permissibility of conventional transgressions. Thus, even if there is no rule prohibiting the action, participant generally judge moral transgressions as non-permissible
(i.e., they still think it is wrong to hit another individual even if there is no rule against it). In contrast, if there is no rule prohibiting a conventional transgression, participants generally judge the act as permissible (i.e., they think it is OK to talk in class if there is no rule against it). While participants do not always make the moral/conventional distinction in their seriousness judgments, they do always make the moral conventional distinction in their modifiability judgments.[/b] Thus, children at certain ages have been found to judge some conventional and moral transgression1, as equally serious (Stoddart and Turiel, 1985; Turiel, 1983). However, they still identify the moral transgressions as less rule contingent and less under authority jurisdiction than the conventional transgressions.
Children with psychopathic tendencies and adults with psychopathy have considerable difficulty with the moral/conventional distinction task (Blair, 1995, 1997; Blair et al., 1995a, 2001c). In addition, similar difficulties have been observed with more general populations of children presenting with antisocial behavior [/b] (Arsenio and Fleiss, 1996; Dunn and Hughes, 2001; Hughes and Dunn, 2000; Nucci and Herman, 1982). Children with psychopathic tendencies, adults with psychopathy, and other antisocial populations do generally regard moral transgressions as more serious than conventional transgressions. However, such populations are far less likely than comparison individuals to make reference in the victim of the transgression when justifying why moral transgressions are bad (Arsenio and Fleiss, 1996; Blair, 1995; Blair et al., 2001c; Dunn and Hughes, 2001; Hughes and Dunn, 2000). In addition, when the rules prohibiting the transgressions are removed, such populations are far less likely to make the distinction between moral and conventional transgressions that is seen in healthy individuals (Blair, 1995; Blair et al., 2001c; Nucci and Herman, 1982).

SUMMARY
In short, there are strong indications of impairment in moral reasoning in individuals with psychopathy. There are some indications of this using Kohlberg's moral judgment interview. However,
the impairment is much more clearly evidenced by performance on the moral/conventional distinction test.
Individuals with psychopathy, even when they are adult, fail to perform this task successfully even though a healthy developing individual shows successful performance from the age of 3 years.
In Heinz dilemma possibility to transgress both dragist and his drug is somewhat limited (he isn't the only drugist in the universe and radium drug well may be not the only effective anticancer drug available) so Heinz may vote with his legs and explore other possibilities instead to limiting his choices. And even IF this drugist is the only drugist in the universe and radium is the only anticancer drug, Heinz still has an option to network with neighbors and citizens of his city to peacefully endorse drugist to change his stance using psychological desire to be accepted by others, to 'look good'. I suppose drugist isn't a psychopath, just quite a avid person for whom an excess of nectar he possesses is a poison. Even If one is a psychopath, would he be totally indifferent to maintaining any minimal socially acceptable mask of sanity?

Dilemma would become more challenging if to prolong life to his wife Heinz would have to take a life of another human. What if to possibly prolong life of his wife, Heinz had to kill their only child as his heart only was compatible with his wife's? What if to prolong life of his wife, Heinz had to give to her his own heart, so she may (and may not - outcome is largely unpredictable) live, and he will die?
Beau said:
Question everything! Except for Atreides ;)
 
DonaldJHunt said:
I think the problem with the dilemma, is that it is Heinz's wife, and none of us know Heinz's wife. If it was OUR spouse, though...
Just read this and laughed out loud. Have to agree with you - a good point!
 
Pepperfritz said:
Oh. I didn't understand that was the purpose. My apologies. I was responding to the question "Should Heinz have done that?"
Well, in responding to the question "should Heinz have done that?" you were, in effect, exhibiting your level of empathy for Heinz. It's not really about Heinz's wife, it's about empathy... Heinz is the one suffering in an abstract way - something a psychopath can never understand - while the wife is the one suffering physically. It is a tricky question.

So, if you can empathize with Heinz, with his EMOTIONAL suffering, you would understand why he did it and you would know that, in his shoes, you would do exactly the same thing.
 
Laura said:
Well, in responding to the question "should Heinz have done that?" you were, in effect, exhibiting your level of empathy for Heinz. It's not really about Heinz's wife, it's about empathy....
I see. It is not really meant to "judge level of conscience" (as per hkoehli above), but to test one's ability to feel empathy.
 
Conscience and empathy are related. By feeling the pain of another, you can be motivated to see beyond the limits of conventional morality. But the point is not willingness to break the law or not. Many individuals consider themselves above the law. Think of the Bush gang. Considering yourself above the law is a pathology, not a sign of empathy, so we must look beyond Heinz's willingness to steal.

Heinz is not only breaking the law, he is doing something that could land himself in jail. He is willing to put himself in personal danger in order to get the medicine for his wife. He is putting her welfare before his own. That is where the question of empathy is seen.

Remember, in the original Heinz Dilemma, you need to explain your actions, not simply say whether or not he should steal the medicine. It is in the explanations that we can see the motivations and assess conscience and empathy.
 
Al Today said:
But I am pressed for time and must go for a bit.
I hated the way I left and did not come back to this great discussion. I just had back surgery last Monday (ruptured disk). Argh... Found out I have a couple hernias in my abdomen that need surgery... Need to fix a loose tooth before it just falls out... I'm just falling apart... But anyway, I don't like to appear like I just ran away with nothing to say. I can't add anything more to the Heinz dilemma than has already been posted.
 
Ouch! Get better, dude. That sounds rough. 3D is a b-----.

Al Today said:
Al Today said:
But I am pressed for time and must go for a bit.
I hated the way I left and did not come back to this great discussion. I just had back surgery last Monday (ruptured disk). Argh... Found out I have a couple hernias in my abdomen that need surgery... Need to fix a loose tooth before it just falls out... I'm just falling apart... But anyway, I don't like to appear like I just ran away with nothing to say. I can't add anything more to the Heinz dilemma than has already been posted.
 
DonaldJHunt said:
Ouch! Get better, dude. That sounds rough. 3D is a b-----.
Thanks Donald.
This ole body is getting some mileage. Easier to replace parts on my high mileage car than this biological machine here. I just hope this body don't nickle & dime me to death like the ole high mileage car does.
 
I found this series of posts on this topic awhile back and became very interested in knowing more about the interactions and experiences of the principal "players" behind the scenes so to speak, in the student-teacher relationship between Ouspensky and Gurdjieff.

Over the past year or year and a half, I read ISOTM and The Fourth Way, which (when financially feasible) then led to the gradual accumulation of the three Books of Gnosis, Meetings With Remarkable Men, Life Is Real, Views From the Real World, then branching out even further to Psychological Commentaries by Maurice Nicoll. Since Laura recommended it, I acquired Struggle of the Magicians. Throughout the book, I experienced a filling in of many blanks, like putting together a puzzle in the form of a large mosaic where several pieces that I didn't even know fit into the puzzle, were given to me and I could see a larger and somewhat clearer picture of the whole based on the addition of a few extra pieces.

However, as I read I was writing down a few things that were having the opposite effect on me, in that I was becoming more confused after having read them than before picking up the book. As is the style of the book, Patterson presents small vignettes of scenes taking place at various times from the perspective of the different people involved, many being quoted from books they had written. I was confused after having read the following excerpt. I will put in bold type the relevant parts of the statements in question.

Patterson wrote:
Kanari finds Yakina--who the day before said, 'I see I irritate you, Mr. Gurdjieff, so I will go"--sitting with Gurdjieff at a cafe. Her face is so distressed that Kanari waits until she leaves. Says Gurdjieff: "I nervous and your friend come talk empty to empty....She too light for this work, too American. In life she perhaps have something good. But not for our work. I thought when she first came that after she had contact with me, something would collect in her empty place, but now I see is not so. Such empty life leave empty place. In fact I could tell is piece of meat with emanations. Good formulation, eh?"

"I think the reason is the result of philosophizing for years with Orage's New York group," says Kanari.

"Yes," answers Gurjieff, "she is a victim of self-observation."

"Perhaps it is not too late, Mr. Gurdjieff," says Kanari. "She has such a wish to work. She truly knows there is nothing else in life but your work. Don't send her away."

"Well, I will see what I can combinate for her. She must all stop make, wait, begin another way. She has only automatic mind, she not understand that of mind is two kinds and she quite not have real mind mentation. You explain to her, but use my words."
Now, I know that Gurdjieff is tough enough to figure out on the surface level, and that digging deeper is required in order to really get at the heart of what he is saying. And being the novice I am at the Work, probably something is going right over my head that I don't even recognize. But, it seems that with this statement Gurdjieff is more or less saying that self-observation can lead one astray in some way, unless he was specifically referring to the teaching of self-observation the way the Orage Group was teaching it.

So earlier in the book, I find this:

SEPTEMBER 1920. Gurdjieff opens his Institute on the ground floor of a large house in Pera. Here, as he did in Petersburg, Oupensky devotes himself to helping Gurdjieff organize the work. The movements and sacred dances are practised and self-remembering and self-observation are emphasized, as is work with the centers.
Okay, so this seems normal enough. At a later point, at the Institute, there is this:

Most of the novice students seemed to be put through a period of purposeful frustration. Inevitably, given the reputation of the school and its stated aims, they began to wonder just exactly what was being accomplished by doing physical labor, and nothing else. The frustration would usually increase because no one, including Gurdjieff, would answer their questions--they were simply told that for the time being they were simply to do as they were told. When they reached some kind of breaking point, they would suddenly be given an exercise--usually being told that they should observe themselves consciously while they worked and learn about themselves.
So in at least these last two exceprts, self-observation as I have understood it seems to be quite normally explicated. So my burning question is why, according to Gurdjieff, is this Yakina a "victim" of self-observation? I feel like I'm either missing something important, or this is really something quite minor, once I grasp what he really means here. Considering that self-observation and self-remembering are two of the main teachings of the work by Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, and Nicoll, could it be that its just Orage that hasn't got a full enough grasp of the concept yet to be teaching it?

Any comments on this by the forum would be greatly appreciated! "It" is going off to bed now--be back here in the next day or so, when possible. Thanks everyone for your help.
.
 
maybe reading in the context of G using 'Yakina' could help here in discernment. Did G described Yakina as a 'real' person he met, or did he choose her name deliberately to convey a message to his audience on the character type he was speaking about?
'Yakina', whereas being a family name, could bear a subterfuge second meaning: a superinflated Ego, 'Me-Me Narcissus' type. In Russian
'Ya' is equivalent to english 'I', and a person, who is "Yaking' too much is one overmilking his/her self-importance
 
KC Kelly said:
I

Patterson wrote:
"I think the reason is the result of philosophizing for years with Orage's New York group," says Kanari.

"Yes," answers Gurjieff, "she is a victim of self-observation."
He was referring to the concept that the north american group had about self-observation. It was explained by Orage in a more "theoretical/dried" way so to speak. The american group didn't grasp the true meaning of self-observation, Gurdjieff stressed that it was not correct the way. At least that is what I gathered when I read that book and Gurdjieff's talks in the US.
 
You can read more about what Navegante is referring to in "Life is Real, Only Then When I Am" by Gurdjieff. He explains the situation in the US under Orage's teaching at great length.
 
Thank you Carpe Diem, Navigante, & Henry for your responses. That was my initial reaction--that the Orage group had somehow "corrupted" the information in its transmission, but I don't feel "qualified" to make that determination for myself quite yet--I feel I have to learn more. And wouldn't it make sense that the only book of the bunch that I have yet to complete is Life Is Real. I made it through part-way and it seemed rather dense and difficult to comprehend. However, if the answers lie in there somewhere, I shall give it a second turn. Thanks all!
 
Sometimes, things in these books will not make sense until you have certain experiences. Then, things fall into place. And you never know what the experience will be, or when it will happen. So, in addition to asking and getting some answers, try also to live with the ambiguity, just observing and collecting data and know that, when the moment is ripe, things will fall into place as you already described experiencing.
 

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