Internal Racism

luke wilson

The Living Force
ignis.intimus said:
I have always thought there was a difference between black in terms of color of skin and Black in terms of a stereotypical cultural image I (and society) held. It's feels embarrassing to say, that I could be so prejudicial, but if a person has a different skin tone from white (being mine) but falls into the category of a "white" attitude, I have never really felt physically threatened - within the context of a stranger situation, late at night, or that sort of thing. An individuals body language and the look in their eyes says so much more than merely the amount of pigment they have in their skin. So I've always thought that when people talk about blacks being more likely to do this or that bad thing, they are really referring a segment of individuals who happen to have black skin, but are really a racial offshoot of a "thug culture" that members of all races fall into. I will cross the street if a group or individuals appear harmful regardless of skin color. But at the same time, I have to admit I tend to be more wary of those whose skin color is black.

I think when it comes to this topic or any other sort of 'ism' it is really useful as individuals to lay out in words what we think. This way we can come to confront it instead of letting it function in the subconscious without any kind of intervention. Nowadays, I feel like most people are afraid to admit there own feelings as it terrifies them or it'll make them realize they aren't so nice.

It is my honest view that if we were to take what we think is true and scrutinize it, it would be found wanting. What we will find instead is that our minds have been worked on, conditioned into a certain way of perception that isn't even logical.

For example, most people would openly admit that black people are more likely to commit a crime and that the fear is warranted. Hell, black people feel this to. There is this quote I came across from Jesse Jackson

There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved....

But, again, we have to take the sorts of neighbourhoods you wouldn't feel safe in into account. Usually they are run-down poor neighbourhoods and most people who would live in these sorts of places are black people as they occupy the bottom stratosphere of society. And poverty is a prison that can lock you in for generations, it is not only about money but how you see the world, what sort of experience you have with it etc. It doesn't help that and we all know who is responsible for this, the 3 letter agency have flooded these sorts of places with drugs and promoted a sort of gangster hip hop culture which to be honest wasn't even in place in like the 60's or whatever. Back then it was sufficient to be hated for simply being black, I doubt black was considered dangerous, less than human was sufficient, but now I suppose since we are all the same, dangerous will have to do.

But in any sort of similar neighbourhood, if they are filled by eastern europeans, blacks or asians, even whites, no one would feel entirely safe especially if you have a group of rowdy youths walking your way.

If you look at the crime numbers, I highly doubt most of the crime are commited by minorities. Some could say, well, if you take the proportion of the population, then minorities rank high up but I would argue, a huge proportion of minorities live in poverty. They might then look to bring in the unproportionate number of black people in american prisons but again here, I don't think this is a reflection of black people in general more a reflection on the system.

Also when it comes to that raw sort of fear, just as an example, an experiment was done on school kids where they were shown a picture of a random black guy and one of a white 'local terrorist' (only the kids didn't know this) and asked "Who is the bad scary guy here and who could be your teacher". As you imagine, black guy got the scary bad guy fingers pointed at him. The whole point was that without any more data, if you just function plainly on prejudice, you could be dead wrong.
 

Joe

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truth seeker said:
Odyssey said:
That being said, there may be something to "race" on a kind of spiritual or cosmic level. I think I remember the C's saying something relating to blacks or Africans and their hardships as being due to karma from past actions (at a group level). Can anyone locate that session? At any rate, being part of a particular racial group could just be part of certain lessons that people have to learn, not necessarily worse or better than any other lessons that have to be learned.

I think this is it:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28379.msg353158.html#msg353158

I find it a but weird to think that a soul or spirit could have a racial profile. Maybe during a specific cycle, there is always a section of humanity that is "underprivileged" as a way to provide the opportunity for souls that need to pay off 'karma' or who just need that experience, to do so. So for example, a Nazi in a past life, or Dick Cheney, would need the option to balance out that life with the experience of one where they were the oppressed rather than the oppressor. It's pretty depressing though, because that might lead to a scenario of "cycling around" endlessly and being stuck in a 3D "time loop" of sorts.
 

Joe

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Breton said:
I remember Malcom Gladwell bringing up this test in "Blink". It was really spot on for me, because like Malcom, I consciously hold no racial prejudices. However I have observed myself, without taking any test that taps my unconscious, that I will immediately, without conscious thought, become more alert to danger whenever I am walking on the street and if even one black person enters into my area! I cannot help it, it just happens. When this happens, I observe the increased wariness, while my conscious mind begins to feel guilty upon observing this reaction and I begin to chastise myself. However, it is understandable, as Gladwell explains, that my unconscious mind has absorbed the messages from media that blacks are over-represented in crime in say USA and Canada (and I remember this especially when I lived in Toronto).

I don't think that's necessarily racism. For example, if I drive into a poor area of Detroit where a lot of 'African-Americans' live and I know that a lot of crime and violence takes place, I'm going to wary of everyone around me, not because they are African-Americans but because I know that a lot of crime takes place and it just so happens most of it is perpetrated by that racial group. I'd feel the same way if I, for some bizarre reason, found myself amongst a bunch of white male adult political types at a luxury retreat in the mountains in the USA.
 

luke wilson

The Living Force
Perceval said:
truth seeker said:
Odyssey said:
That being said, there may be something to "race" on a kind of spiritual or cosmic level. I think I remember the C's saying something relating to blacks or Africans and their hardships as being due to karma from past actions (at a group level). Can anyone locate that session? At any rate, being part of a particular racial group could just be part of certain lessons that people have to learn, not necessarily worse or better than any other lessons that have to be learned.

I think this is it:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28379.msg353158.html#msg353158

I find it a but weird to think that a soul or spirit could have a racial profile. Maybe during a specific cycle, there is always a section of humanity that is "underprivileged" as a way to provide the opportunity for souls that need to pay off 'karma' or who just need that experience, to do so. So for example, a Nazi in a past life, or Dick Cheney, would need the option to balance out that life with the experience of one where they were the oppressed rather than the oppressor. It's pretty depressing though, because that might lead to a scenario of "cycling around" endlessly and being stuck in a 3D "time loop" of sorts.

This could be true. If we simply look at souls for example, someone could say the above might imply every single soul in a black body or any sort of body under oppression (take arabs for example) are paying off karmic debt i.e. they did something wrong in a past life. This could then lead onto a feeling of well deep down they deserve it somehow.

Does that make sense?

To clarify further, in general I do think that what you are saying is true in that in every single cycle a way for people to pay off karmic debt might be required but also think it might not be so straight forward but I am not totally sure. You can pay off karmic debt by lets say, "having poor social skills" or "not having any sort of talent and being stuck with super talented people" but I suppose it could just simply be that certain 'races' might be designated for such roles.
 

mada85

The Living Force
astrozombie said:
Raised a Catholic, I was conditioned to have homophobia.

As a young teen, I participated with a large group of "friends" that began a systematic campaign of harassing a gay male in our school.

I am devastated to say that he eventually committed suicide after a few year of this torment.

People, this type of guilt can become unbearable for those of us who have a soul, unlike OPs.

I still wonder what amazing things this young man could have contributed to the world.

I have since become an outspoken person on such bullying tactics but the damage for me has already been done.

Thank you, astrozombie, it can't have been easy to share this. We all have a 'past' and some skeletons in our closets - I know I do. I am gay, and when I read your post I felt a mixture of anger, sadness, shock and grief. It reminded me of my teenage years at an all-boys school, where I was perpetually in fear of this very thing happening to me. I sternly controlled any expression of effeminate body language - there may have been none, and looking back I don't think there was - or mention of boys I liked. I was terrified of giving myself away and that fear made me see things where really there was nothing to see.

All of this resulted in a very lonely time at school - there really was no friend to turn to. My best friend was straight and the one or two slight hints I dropped to him were met with rejection. There were other things going on at that time which I posted about here.

We live in a pathological world where everyone is pitted against everyone else by the psychopaths who rule. It's the old 'divide and conquer' schtick. 'Do unto others before they do unto you' seems to be their motto. As children and young people, we lack the necessary adult role models to guide us in the development of conscience. You could only have done what you did if your conscience was asleep.

I have to admit that my first reaction to your post was to think that you should be lambasted and ostracized - in a word punished, and severely so. But that was my emotional reaction driving my thinking into black and white. I think that your remorse and confession are really a positive step in the direction of atonement and growth. I agree with neema:

neema said:
And if you are truly feeling guilt, don't try to alleviate it. Let it light the fire within to help you help others. In my opinion if you can help one person through your actions then your actions can begin to atone for your mistakes.

I know it is rather difficult but you must also be a little more compassionate with yourself. Give yourself a break in understanding that you were raised by a very fear based ideology.

Just consider that the guilt and pain might be with you till the rest of your life, but IMO that can be a great thing. Use it to develop a healthy fear of what “your machine” is capable of.

If you can learn to use the guilt you feel as fuel for the fire of the Work, that is atonement.

You cannot change the past, but by healing the present and thus preparing for the future, it is said that we can change the past - perhaps only in how the past impacts our present - but isn't that something worth striving for? Utilising the long shadow of the past for a positive outcome?

Have you read The Wave Volume 8 - Debugging the Universe? Laura presents the idea that our negative programming is a 'bug' in the 'universal program' - like a bug in a computer program. Certain 'local consciousness units' are created which have the capacity to 'debug' themselves and thereby the universe. That means, they have the potential to clean themselves of these negative programs and thought loops, to awaken conscience, grow in knowledge, and thereby heal themselves and help to heal (debug) the universe. For it is a certainty that in our little corner of the universe, things ain't pretty. You have direct experience of that. When you hounded that boy, your conscience was set to 'off' and that made you a 'bug' in the 'universal program'. But now you have an opportunity of a completely different nature.

So, with all that said, please don't wallow in guilt. Use it for growth and 'debugging'. Try to avoid becoming self-important about your suffering.

astrozombie said:
I have since become an outspoken person on such bullying tactics [ . . . ]

To my mind, this is the beginning of atonement. It is atonement in the outer world. However I think that real atonement is as neema describes above - using your guilt as fire to fuel the Work. It's not easy, and it demands sacrifices of all sorts, but you're in the right place to Work, and you have the support of the forum.
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
luke wilson said:
If you look at the crime numbers, I highly doubt most of the crime are commited by minorities. Some could say, well, if you take the proportion of the population, then minorities rank high up but I would argue, a huge proportion of minorities live in poverty. They might then look to bring in the unproportionate number of black people in american prisons but again here, I don't think this is a reflection of black people in general more a reflection on the system.

Also when it comes to that raw sort of fear, just as an example, an experiment was done on school kids where they were shown a picture of a random black guy and one of a white 'local terrorist' (only the kids didn't know this) and asked "Who is the bad scary guy here and who could be your teacher". As you imagine, black guy got the scary bad guy fingers pointed at him. The whole point was that without any more data, if you just function plainly on prejudice, you could be dead wrong.

If we see how brain works and how childhood impressions create a sub conscious biases, this makes sense( though not fair). Added to that, There has been leaked documents saying CIA targetted black communities to promote drugs and destroy their normal life and media reinforces this attitude giving over coverage to minority community crimes and undermining white person's crimes.

This is true in other cultures too. this reminds me of some articles I read in india. If a indian boss and his white assistant goes to India, boss will be embarassed to see the amount of respect white guy gets and how much indifference boss has to face. This is after 6o years of independence from british imperialism that literally destroyed the country. This is how deep biases carried over generations.
 

SMM

The Living Force
luke wilson said:
Perceval said:
truth seeker said:
Odyssey said:
That being said, there may be something to "race" on a kind of spiritual or cosmic level. I think I remember the C's saying something relating to blacks or Africans and their hardships as being due to karma from past actions (at a group level). Can anyone locate that session? At any rate, being part of a particular racial group could just be part of certain lessons that people have to learn, not necessarily worse or better than any other lessons that have to be learned.

I think this is it:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28379.msg353158.html#msg353158

I find it a but weird to think that a soul or spirit could have a racial profile. Maybe during a specific cycle, there is always a section of humanity that is "underprivileged" as a way to provide the opportunity for souls that need to pay off 'karma' or who just need that experience, to do so. So for example, a Nazi in a past life, or Dick Cheney, would need the option to balance out that life with the experience of one where they were the oppressed rather than the oppressor. It's pretty depressing though, because that might lead to a scenario of "cycling around" endlessly and being stuck in a 3D "time loop" of sorts.

This could be true. If we simply look at souls for example, someone could say the above might imply every single soul in a black body or any sort of body under oppression (take arabs for example) are paying off karmic debt i.e. they did something wrong in a past life. This could then lead onto a feeling of well deep down they deserve it somehow.

Does that make sense?

To clarify further, in general I do think that what you are saying is true in that in every single cycle a way for people to pay off karmic debt might be required but also think it might not be so straight forward but I am not totally sure. You can pay off karmic debt by lets say, "having poor social skills" or "not having any sort of talent and being stuck with super talented people" but I suppose it could just simply be that certain 'races' might be designated for such roles.

Karmic debt may be related to a soul's lesson profile. I don't think that a soul remains uniform in strength necessarily, although that can't be quantified, so - dependent on circumstances within cycles - the genetic body in one incarnation could be diametrically opposed to a former one. I think in some lifetimes lessons include being more STS, to acquire karma(?)... & the next more STO... so on & so forth until the final denouement.
That does in a roundabout way imply a 3D "time loop" though. As ever, the foregoing probably isn't that straightforward.

seek10 said:
luke wilson said:
If you look at the crime numbers, I highly doubt most of the crime are commited by minorities. Some could say, well, if you take the proportion of the population, then minorities rank high up but I would argue, a huge proportion of minorities live in poverty. They might then look to bring in the unproportionate number of black people in american prisons but again here, I don't think this is a reflection of black people in general more a reflection on the system.

Also when it comes to that raw sort of fear, just as an example, an experiment was done on school kids where they were shown a picture of a random black guy and one of a white 'local terrorist' (only the kids didn't know this) and asked "Who is the bad scary guy here and who could be your teacher". As you imagine, black guy got the scary bad guy fingers pointed at him. The whole point was that without any more data, if you just function plainly on prejudice, you could be dead wrong.

If we see how brain works and how childhood impressions create a sub conscious biases, this makes sense( though not fair). Added to that, There has been leaked documents saying CIA targetted black communities to promote drugs and destroy their normal life and media reinforces this attitude giving over coverage to minority community crimes and undermining white person's crimes.

This is true in other cultures too. this reminds me of some articles I read in india. If a indian boss and his white assistant goes to India, boss will be embarassed to see the amount of respect white guy gets and how much indifference boss has to face. This is after 6o years of independence from british imperialism that literally destroyed the country. This is how deep biases carried over generations.

A form of divide & conquer if anything else..?
It's easily done with appearances, as there is already a subconscious bias factor that differentiates cultures. There were some studies done with job applicants, presumably false names but with equivalent levels of qualifications; names that sounded well... non-Caucasion or contemporary white where found to be called back for interviews with higher frequency than other minority groups per se. No photos were included. So your chances of success or survival in the world presumably are somehow based on prejudice & prejudicial operations.

Strangely, developing countries seem to have a kind of divide. Some consider the white race powerful & their orchestrations [culturally & worldly] aspirational - or just associate them with opulence or purity. In rural areas, technology is marvelled at. Others consider the white race repugnant, cause of their ills etc.

Others yet see it as somewhere in between, with good & bad aspects alike. Usually those who have travelled more widely or experienced both sides of the fence. Prejudice still exists at some levels but with less likelihood of being carried over into manifestation.

ignis.intimus said:
Breton said:
I remember Malcom Gladwell bringing up this test in "Blink". It was really spot on for me, because like Malcom, I consciously hold no racial prejudices. However I have observed myself, without taking any test that taps my unconscious, that I will immediately, without conscious thought, become more alert to danger whenever I am walking on the street and if even one black person enters into my area! I cannot help it, it just happens. When this happens, I observe the increased wariness, while my conscious mind begins to feel guilty upon observing this reaction and I begin to chastise myself. However, it is understandable, as Gladwell explains, that my unconscious mind has absorbed the messages from media that blacks are over-represented in crime in say USA and Canada (and I remember this especially when I lived in Toronto).

I have always thought there was a difference between black in terms of color of skin and Black in terms of a stereotypical cultural image I (and society) held. It's feels embarrassing to say, that I could be so prejudicial, but if a person has a different skin tone from white (being mine) but falls into the category of a "white" attitude, I have never really felt physically threatened - within the context of a stranger situation, late at night, or that sort of thing. An individuals body language and the look in their eyes says so much more than merely the amount of pigment they have in their skin. So I've always thought that when people talk about blacks being more likely to do this or that bad thing, they are really referring a segment of individuals who happen to have black skin, but are really a racial offshoot of a "thug culture" that members of all races fall into. I will cross the street if a group or individuals appear harmful regardless of skin color. But at the same time, I have to admit I tend to be more wary of those whose skin color is black.

What is missed in the perspective of many white people here in America is the situation and conditions that have contributed and led up to the situation we find ourselves in. The C's have something different to say about the matter- that there is a karmic influence behind it - but I figure that you could take any particular race of people, and subject them to slavery, economic and political disenfranchisement, and then widespread, long-running, prejudice and you would end up with the same sorts of mental attitude and behavior. I've personally met all sorts of nasty people across the entire spectrum of skin color.

Obama recently said there needs to be a national discussion about race. I think if we leave it up to politicians, nothing, like always, would ever get done. What needs to happen is for individuals to be able to sit down and discuss how they really feel about things. For example, I used to work with a couple of black guys and we talked about race and racism all the time - and I thoroughly enjoyed our discussions. I never felt comfortable admitting it, but I really wanted to say to them, that whites have a long way to come in their understanding of what it means to be black (myself included). These days racism against blacks is masked pretty well for those of us who have never endured it. But black people need to understand that your typical white person is intimidated by black people. It's the wrong way to see a segment of individuals, it's subjective and prejudicial, but it's also true (in my personal experience and observation). Without starting from a position of honesty, how can we ever hope to resolve these problems?

All you wrote above resonates with me ignis.intimus.
Something I read here reminded me of projective identification... I can't remember what so will re-read & see where it applies. Relates to my question of relinquishing the need to blame others.

Projective identification is described as:
...an unconscious tendency to both induce in another what is being projected, AND to attempt to control the other person who is perceived as manifesting those characteristics that the split person is projecting.

...maybe the Obama part?
 

luke wilson

The Living Force
SMM said:
It's easily done with appearances, as there is already a subconscious bias factor that differentiates cultures. There were some studies done with job applicants, presumably false names but with equivalent levels of qualifications; names that sounded well... non-Caucasion or contemporary white where found to be called back for interviews with higher frequency than other minority groups per se. No photos were included. So your chances of success or survival in the world presumably are somehow based on prejudice & prejudicial operations.

Well, below is the evidence

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3885213.stm

CVs from six fictitious candidates - who were given traditionally white, black African or Muslim names - were sent to 50 firms by Radio Five Live.

White "candidates" were far more likely to be given an interview than similarly qualified black or Asian "names".

The above from 2004, the below 2009,

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/18/racism-discrimination-employment-undercover

Researchers sent nearly 3,000 job applications under false identities in an attempt to discover if employers were discriminating against jobseekers with foreign names. Using names recognisably from three different communities – Nazia Mahmood, Mariam Namagembe and Alison Taylor – false identities were created with similar experience and qualifications. Every false applicant had British education and work histories.

They found that an applicant who appeared to be white would send nine applications before receiving a positive response of either an invitation to an interview or an encouraging telephone call. Minority candidates with the same qualifications and experience had to send 16 applications before receiving a similar response.

From 2011

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1358753/Muslim-refused-job-accuses-airline-bosses-racism.html

A Muslim airport worker has accused airline Cathay Pacific of racism after he was refused a job interview – only to be offered one when he applied two days later using a fake white British-sounding name.

All the above from the UK.

What about the US?

http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html

In the study "Are Emily and Brendan More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?" Marianne Bertrand, an associate professor at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business, and Sendhil Mullainathan of Massachusetts Institute of Technology use a field experiment to measure the extent of race-based job discrimination in the current labor market.

From July 2001 to May 2002, Bertrand and Mullainathan sent fictitious resumes in response to 1,300 help-wanted ads listed in the Boston Globe and the Chicago Tribune. They used the callback rate for interviews to measure the success of each resume. Approximately 5,000 resumes were sent for positions in sales, administrative support, clerical services, and customer service. Jobs ranged from a cashier at a store to the manager of sales at a large firm.

The catch was that the authors manipulated the perception of race via the name of each applicant, with comparable credentials for each racial group. Each resume was randomly assigned either a very white-sounding name (Emily Walsh, Brendan Baker) or a very African-American-sounding name (Lakisha Washington, Jamal Jones).

The authors find that applicants with white-sounding names are 50 percent more likely to get called for an initial interview than applicants with African-American-sounding names. Applicants with white names need to send about 10 resumes to get one callback, whereas applicants with African-American names need to send about 15 resumes to achieve the same result.


In conclusion, this does appear to hold some water:

"So your chances of success or survival in the world presumably are somehow based on prejudice & prejudicial operations."

Not only on the job market but other places as well e.g. walking outside whilst wearing a hoodie.
 

Psalehesost

The Living Force
I have this kind of things in relation to other things, as well, such as having been given a diagnosis of being on the autistic spectrum and considered to have "a disability". And, in general, in not having fit in very well throughout my childhood and teens, this has fed into an attitude, mostly not conscious, that there is "something wrong" with me.

Megan said:
Mr. Premise said:
...People can take the IAT test here https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

Been there, done that, results not good.

For me, "moderately strong preference" for whites. Standard programming is there.

whitecoast said:
I took a similar test from Harvard once. It concluded I was homophobic, which was news to me considering I'm gay. I think maybe a lot of social anxiety and neuroticism surrounding that identity back in high school is what the test confused with actually having a negative opinion about LGBT.

I just took the test on that page for views regarding sexual orientation. It seems I have a "moderately strong preference" for homosexuals (i.e. might be heterophobic), despite being heterosexual. Perhaps (my guess) due to alienation with the social world around me, and perceiving heterosexuality and heterosexual relations and all they involve as part of it, but somehow not perceiving homosexuality and such relations as being as much a part of it.

I.e., as most people, implicitly viewing homosexuality as something outside of "normal life", yet - unlike most people - loathing "normal life". So that things outside it do not necessarily get automatically viewed as "worse", but perhaps sometimes the opposite, instead.

Could be more complicated in this case, though - it's just a guess.
 

H-KQGE

Dagobah Resident
Oh no, (sigh) not this again. I've had it with this issue really. Speaking about this for years & years to people has drained me. Everyone speaks of it at some point, so i guess it should be well covered here too. Please excuse the tone of this post, it's just one of the few things that drive me up the wall mainly because of the stupidity of it all. :mad:
All the posts i've read are valid & spot-on & i would've liked to write some long insightful piece on it, but i can barely talk about it as i remember so many draining conversations over the years. But this is with different people, like-minded people & this is the forum so i'll say a bit.

I do not like using the word "race" to describe other members of THE HUMAN RACE. I was taught in school that there is a race called humans - which is species-specific instead of calling ourselves "the human species" (except for maybe science literature) so separating us from animals in the description colloquially. So why the heck are different tribes or groups called race? (and i'm not asking a rhetorical question either)

I have my biases & they're mainly against black people. Like everyone else that loves their ignorance (wilful) & cozy life of indolence that characterizes humans since way back when, i see blacks as wallowing in this behaviour. Of course others try & corner the market in "we're are more oppressed by the whites", "no, WE are more oppressed.." but i have a greater knowledge of white people (mostly) & blacks but this self-pity thing is useless. Added to that is the blame-game that quickly developed into a cliche, then a stereotype. And we all know stereotypes have some elements of truth to them. I won't go in deep (could easily end up ranting on something i don't much care for these days) on the specifics as i've done some on the Nigeria thread here: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,30614.15.html & here:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,30614.30.html note SMM's response above mine & 1Peacelover's after. I'm gonna say my bit based on random comments here. So.. i'm biased towards whites as i've been around them more than any other. It's not a case of "white is the best" or "white is more beautiful" since all are, it's just a comfort thing. And for the record, if i was going to pity anyone it would be the white tribe (i ain't gonna say race) that's been used to batter the world into submission. Including other whites. Next, the foreign name rubbish: This is classic ignorance & intolerance, especially for change. As i've said to anyone who'll listen, typical white names aren't. Tony (Ant) Stephen, Daniel, Mark, Nathan, (actually the name of a friend who's the only person i know that knows what i'll describe below) Peter, Paul, john & so forth. That's just the English/western males.

A number of years back i saw my abovementioned friend telling him i had to leave his house early to watch this documentary (channel 4 roughly 5 years ago for UK viewers) where the researchers were going to present their findings about the English heritage/roots to a bunch of "toffs" ("upper-class" very posh elitist English) who were convinced of their superiority in terms of lineage. At the beginning they agreed to whatever findings, at the end they were indignant (probably righteously) as they were told of German, middle east/near east (& elsewhere)roots. The look on their faces on the advert for the programme had me on the floor, & my friend too! Immigrants. Everywhere, things change & people move around big deal. The English language is the same as i've said somewhere on the forum i had a book on it around that time by the broadcaster Melvyn Bragg "The Adventure of English" which was formerly a tv show. The English eh?
A large chunk of whites can't be bothered to pronounce names correctly if they're longer than 3 syllables & so resort to the British slave trade era type thing - "name?" "Abimbola-akinfwo-mowambi." "Tsk, lets just call you john, NEXT!"
Next: brown skinned people (namely blacks) giving it the "yes sir, 3 bags full sir" routine around white people & then amazing hostility toward those looking the same? Priceless. And timeless too. I don't agree with the whole British independence thing either, overt control is faced up to. Covert ain't.

Next: one of the alphabetical voyeur-assassin's (CIA NSA FABs & the other terror-networking fools) groups flooding black neighbourhoods in the '70s & '80s with narcotics? Yeah i heard that back in school days, i could barely believe such a thing. But movies & documentaries came out along with books. Some thought the ABCs didn't calculate that middle-class white folk would get involved in such a dirty negro habit. That it just so happened that the good ol' red white 'n' blue traditional Apple pie-baking-God-fearing-uncle Sam brigade got hooked on cocaine-a-cola Mary Jane & "crack"(ed)-heroin. (whatever that is) And people still buy this, like 9-11.

Next: I remember in school the pseudo-homophobia (as i don't believe that they were all scared of someone allegedly homosexual, just that mob mentality applied to young boys mixing with other young boys from backgrounds that some whites were intolerant to, but would act in unison against the so-called homosexual due to their religious families that drummed it into them) that was around. It wasn't really a case of "beat-up the homo" (though there was an incident where a large group from different ages in the school chased one boy out of school near a road & the fear in his eyes, the danger of the notorious busy road behind him stopped anything from happening thankfully. I think all were to scared to be the one to "cast the 1st stone" as it were, i was along as a timid heckler. Boy's schools are awful, mixed keeps them in line somewhat, though these days they'll just fornicate & get pregnant at 13, so a no-win all round. Typical.) more an atmosphere where any show of platonic affection would get the "urgh, he's gay! He tried to touch my.." treatment. Queue fight scenes. Black boys being the worst for this with the usual pejorative slang inspired by the kids of "afro-carribean" descent. I put that in quotes as i don't know any more, terms keep changing that were once acceptable. Take the term "half-c***" to describe a child of one white parent & one black. It sounds bad if you look at it properly, cast off, or "bast** child (probably "the good ol' days" when that might get you all killed) but apparently that was being used & accepted 90 years ago. In my time ("90s) what we now refer to as mixed race meant for example, mum is Chinese & dad is a German- Jew. Or hubby is a black Brazilian born in Italy, & the mommy is an Irish-born part Slovakian with roots in an Arab country. See? Weird in those days, normal fare now. Still, whatever anyone wants to be called i haven't a problem. Call me N****r & ill bat it out of the park, call me COLOURED & i'll probably start splitting. One more.

Next: Karmic debt. This is very important if we take it to be true. Some lessons might not be completed due to economics (you're poor, malnourished, no job persecuted for.. take your pick. You're a "good person", you die. Young.) or some random accident (& remember these can be on both sides of sts leaning or sto leaning) or look at what's likely to happen in the next few years, most people on the planet are gonna bite the dust from famine, disease, global cataclysm, ice... is that some sort of "critical mass karma?" If the C's had said the high civilization of ancient blacks achieved this themselves i would be incredulous, but lizzie inspired makes it believable. "Less aware, discuss less." Sounds like black folk to me.
Look everyone is in more or less the same boat. We have monotheism, extreme prejudice (mainly racism but it's all intertwined) agriculture that are "reality concepts." These facilitate the birth & maintenance of those nanite-like "reality programs" that aid our pathological self-governance insuring that cruelty & intolerance & ignorance & stupidity prevail. Everyone is alike. I for one see white features on a lot of black people (noses, lips, & skin bleaching) along with some Asian (oriental formerly) eyes (some Chinese-Americans call it almond eyes) to boot. On whites i see the reverse but with brown skin (some are orange) & small busts & African behinds. Blacks have blue & green eyes, how many whites do you know that are blue-eyed blonds? Pale-skinned perhaps? No i didnt think so. That modern day "heil Hitler" with the arm thing in Scandinavia, America, Germany, UK & elsewhere is appalling to see. They'll never get it, not at this position of the cycle. All are a mix of each other & it's manifesting now. I'll just continue to speak up for human values regardless of any "supposed" hyperdimensional tinker-tanker spying in our 3-d petri dish. The post turned out to be long in the end didn't it? I told you this subject is frustrating, & i held back too! Oh well. :rolleyes:
 

mb

The Living Force
Psalehesost said:
...I just took the test on that page for views regarding sexual orientation. It seems I have a "moderately strong preference" for homosexuals (i.e. might be heterophobic), despite being heterosexual. Perhaps (my guess) due to alienation with the social world around me, and perceiving heterosexuality and heterosexual relations and all they involve as part of it, but somehow not perceiving homosexuality and such relations as being as much a part of it.

I.e., as most people, implicitly viewing homosexuality as something outside of "normal life", yet - unlike most people - loathing "normal life". So that things outside it do not necessarily get automatically viewed as "worse", but perhaps sometimes the opposite, instead.

Could be more complicated in this case, though - it's just a guess.

When you live in a society with upside-down, psychopathically-inspired values, having traits that make sense can sometimes be uncomfortable. Personally, in the more recent phase of my life where I actually had a social life, my preference was to be around gay people, not for their sexual interests (I have essentially none myself), but because they were more interesting people to be around than my highly inhibited, hung up, shame-driven (or whatever) heterosexual co-workers and friends.

Am I heterophobic? Quite possibly, and with reason...

The people I least like to be around, with a few notable exceptions, are transsexual and transgender people. That has everything to do with internalized transphobia, not to mention being automatically "outed" when I am seen with them. But then this is a community characterized by serious mental issues, no doubt driven in part by the common experience of being mistreated and abused (not to mention poor diet!). And they remind me of many things I went through for which I don't seem to need reminders. Things that happened at the hands of "normal" heterosexual bigots with their need to be "right" (and, evidently, for everybody else to be dead).

I am not actively projecting that on to all heterosexuals, but it can sure make a person think about people they don't yet know. At least I can see, now, the processes by which people are conditioned and prepared to become this way.
 

luke wilson

The Living Force
Well I am not sure if there is anymore that can be got out of this topic other than to notice some of the hidden biases and trying to understand why they exist.

H-KQGE I've read your post (twice to try and understand it) and even though it was rather long, it flowed and was kind of funny thus made it easier to read.

I just have a question.

Trying to distill what you said about race into a kind of a soundbite, I would say you're idea is that of 'universalism'. According to the dictionary, this essentially means

a universal feature or characteristic

i.e. we are all human and everyone should do there bit so for example, yes I do agree for the most part, blacks whine quite a lot. You'll ask a black person, "Why don't you have a job?" answer will essentially be "Because I am black", "Why do you get into a lot of trouble?" answer will essentially be "Because I am black" etc. And most black people who kind of succeed do well to 'pass as white', if you are black and can't pass as white then I think we can agree you are going to have some problems.

Anyways, back to your idea about,

"I do not like using the word "race" to describe other members of THE HUMAN RACE. "

The above is true but again I think it falls short. After reading and thinking about this topic I think it encourages non-action i.e. for example you would have nowadays people fight against affirmative action in america or for example fight against like Companies, employers trying to have some kind of diversity policy i.e. to try and make sure there workforce isn't just white. Most white people will say, "This is sooooo unfair, look they are favoring them making it easier for them to get a job" but we know if such policies didn't exist then underlying biases would rein supreme. And these policies don't go far enough in my view because ultimately just like the debt circle that has imprisoned poor countries to rich countries, the amount of money flowing from rich countries in the form of aid to poor countries is drastically overshadowed by the amount of money flowing from poor countries to rich countries in the form of debt relief and other such stuff. The whole point is that, when it comes to this topic (race not debt) there is sooo much going on underneath the surface that is hidden that I don't think we can come to any kind of rush conclusions especially one that is

"We are all human i.e. let it just be, just treat each other right and just work hard and you know, it'll all work out in the end"

BECAUSE, there are things already operating underneath the surface that need to be corrected to essentially make us ALL human. For example, why should bimbola-akinfwo-mowambi with his heavy west african accent find it more difficult to land a job despite having the right qualification etc than lets say 'John' from the same lineage but with a more polished accent who knows the ins and outs of white social culture!!! If we are all human, both should stand an equal chance and I think bimbola-akinfwo-mowambi if he so chooses to whine, is justified in doing so.

So essentially what this view amounts to is an unconscious propagation of the current system and way of being. Not only that, it encourages destruction of culture and heritage as bimbola-akinfwo-mowambi will have no choice but to abandon his lineage and adopt esentially, the one of his masters in order to succeed. In this way, the world is being made uniform and we have universal cultural destruction where everyone essentially has to adopt 'western' ideals to survive in a global society. The thing is, these ideals are hell bent on control and subjugation.

At least this is what I think and no I don't think talking about it will do much to change it but I think at least the act of acknowledging it is heading in the right direction.
 

Muxel

Dagobah Resident
When I was younger and more ignorant I did fall to thinking I was unique and didn't "fit" into my race, but what I am inside IS a product of history and my environment and 21st century influences and - yes - my race, broadly speaking, because I am the terminal branch of a long line of people who lived in their respective times and did specific things that differentiated themselves from others. Now I can look into a mirror and see my physical vehicle as housing my consciousness but also knowing that "I" am of a race, "I" am a product of everything that has led to the present. Also that I occupy a place in the global narrative of race. To deny that would be like denying blacks were ever oppressed, or similar.

This means I have a role to play, whether I know it or not, and the more data I gather, the more knowledgeable I become of all the different roles there are in this global dance and all the dynamics that arise, the more balanced I can be in thought and action. When I was younger I knew not racism, my emotional self wagged its tail at everyone in a saccharine Disney way, but I was also unaware that racism was real for many people. What happened was that I ended up doing something very racially insensitive: I rolled my eyes when a black guy in class brought up a point about black people and their struggle (the details are fuzzy to me) in relation to some open topic. I mentally cringe every time I recall what I did. My only defense is that I was so young and so ignorant back then because a lot of it was unfamiliar ground to me. Now I can look back and see, for instance, that the white female professor was a nice, refined, patient to a fault, "liberal" type who had a background in Feminist Studies. These dialogues were happening all around me and I was blind to them, I was the bull in the china shop with my juvenile dictionary, and if I knew then what I know now, I would've been able to dance the dance of external considering.

[quote author=http://theweek.com/article/index/243899/the-internets-instant-meme-ification-of-charles-ramsey-the-backlash]Ramsey is not the first black American to be thrust suddenly into the spotlight this way. Remember Antoine Dodson of "Hide Your Kids, Hide Your Wife" or Sweet Brown of "Aint Nobody Got Time for That"? They also gave equally frank local TV interviews that were manipulated, memed, catch-phrased, and forwarded around for entertainment.

In the eyes of many critics of these memes, the common denominator among Ramsey, Dodson, and Sweet Brown is that they are poor and black. And to some, this kind of meme-ification reveals America's racist underbelly. "Laughter directed at people like Sweet Brown plays into the most basic stereotyping of blacks as simple-minded ramblers living in the 'ghetto,' says Aisha Harris at Slate. The root of such jokes are "disrespectful at best." Harris continues:

It's difficult to watch these videos and not sense that their popularity has something to do with a persistent, if unconscious, desire to see black people perform.[Slate]
[/quote]

When I watched the original clips of Antoine Dodson or Sweet Brown, I laughed but I wasn't laughing AT them like everybody else was. I saw them as people "in spite of" the stereotypes they might represent. And this may have been because I'm not an American and therefore I'm a Johnny-come-lately to the American race drama and programming. If the same scenario were to be transposed to my native country, say onto a group there who is the counterpart of what the ghetto blacks are to America, I might possibly have laughed without any feeling for what I was laughing at. I don't know.

The time I spent living in an American city with a significant black population has allowed me to develop an appreciation for them. If the anthropologist or traveler loves the various people and cultures he encounters, then that could be an analogy for how I regard black people as a nebulous "whole." The point I'm trying to make is that, yes, ghetto blacks have their ways and manners and antics and the Internet makes funny jokes and gifs and memes out of them, but I don't make the implicit association that what the blacks have is a "bad thing." I just see it as a "cultural thing" and I feel for it, I can understand it, and in my opinion the Internet ridicule comes from people who DON'T understand it.

Maybe it also has to do with maturity and experience, the high road of brain functioning, and the awakening of the emotional center? Because I can almost see how some people would automatically laugh at, say, a picture of an obese black woman "in the ghetto" shopping at Wal-Mart, and maybe point out "dat ass," but while I am able to laugh along with them, it's only temporary and I revert back to my "true mindset" which is one of familiarity/understanding, which is the only way I can describe it. Because I've seen some overweight black women at the supermarket myself, and they're just being themselves, and I don't have any issue with that.

Also I think a big factor whose importance mustn't be underestimated is that my interactions with blacks were overall "good" (and I put it in quotation marks to distance myself from black-and-white labeling). When I was stumbling around in the dark, I met black people who were decent, kind, funny, big-hearted, community-oriented. Now black people are people, and there are all kinds of black people just as there are all kinds of white people, but I do not for a moment think that all races are literally "the same." I think what the blacks have gone through, the social strata they come from, led to them being who they are, and also that they have greater expression in certain character traits (which is something I like about them). I think I'd feel more comfortable approaching someone in a black neighborhood than doing the same on Wall Street!

If you think this has turned out to be an "I luv blk ppl" post, mark you, I could presumably write the same way about whites, Latinos, Indians, Koreans, Chinese, Italians, Jamaicans, etc, all different "flavors" in this smorgasbord realm of third density humans. (Wow that is some PC sh!t right there.)

Now if the Universe has any sense of humor I'd get mugged by a black man right after posting this... :osama: Then I'd be like "Nooooo I be h8in on u niggaz!!!1"

(Kidding of course!)
 

luke wilson

The Living Force
Muxel, your post was amazing until you used the n word... :(

Anyways, I have been thinking of a way of bringing the attention of a certain book to the attention of the forum without coming across as a complete and utter nutjob. To explain, without somehow qualifying the introduction of this book, it would cause great offense just like for example, the thread on french society could have offended some french people who did not separate what their society indocrinates them with, with who they are.

So this book is a critique on western culture that offers what I can only describe as deep insight and the mistake will be to let ones emotional horses over-ride everything else. The author on her part is liberal with conflating western culture as a whole institution with its own aims and objectives with white people as I believe the 2 are different ultimately. The people are not the culture as far as I know but the culture employs the people to fulfill its aims. Also she has taken this whole 'i've discovered africa' thing to a new level for a western educated black person who was born and lived her life in america but maybe it's just her attempt at reconnecting with some roots. This can put off some people.

The book is,

http://www.amazon.com/Yurugu-African-centered-Critique-European-African-Centered/dp/0865432481

The reviews are pretty good and I like this one in particular (apologies couldn't find a synopsis so had to check the reviews to see one that actually says what the book is about)

Let me start off by saying that I am Turkish, and this is one of my favorite books of all time, and I have lent it and gifted it to many people I care about! Though this is a book by a Black Studies scholar of Afrikan descent, written for a Black audience, you don't have to be Afrikan to get something out of it. The tensions and polarities she describes so eloquently (reason v. emotion, objectivity v. subjectivity, holism v. reductionism, linear v. cyclical thinking, science v. spirituality, etc.) are at the root of significant social trends in every culture, inform behavior between individuals, and influence the direction and nature of one's own personal growth. I am of Turkish descent, and this book helped me understand my culture (and more importantly MYSELF) better than it did Afrikan culture! It changed my life and influenced me to make many positive changes in the way I viewed myself and the world and related to others and my environment!

Dr. Ani's controversial, seminal, and highly misunderstood work fills a gaping crevice in academia: a CRITICAL survey of Western Civilization written with the intellectual tools of the Afrikan-Centered/Afrocentric movement of the late 20th century. I read this book in my last year of college as part of my capstone course for my degree in Black Studies, but I would say that this text is probably more appropriate for grad students...or those who are very passionate about the topic. One would probably need a background in history, philosophy, religious studies, anthropology, etc. Just as Europeans have been able to gain a critical (though sometimes very pejorative) understanding of the world through "objectivity" or rational dis-identification with the subject of study, Dr. Ani attempts to analyze Western Civilization (not the day-to-day habits of White people) without assumptions about spirituality, progress, morality, social organization, normality, objectivity, logic, etc. which are usually taken for granted by Western authors. In fact, she challenges these concepts directly, and illustrates the way that these ideas have been co-opted by the engine of Western Civilization for political convenience.

She questions the validity of "The West", "Europe", and "Whiteness", as social constructs, explores the political reasons for which they were constructed in the first place, and shows how those identities have been invoked more for purposes of domination or aggression than for inter-communal goodwill.

This is a book about "The West" as an INSTITUTION, which is a phenomenon that has a quality distinct from the sum of its individual elements (specific individuals, specific cultures, specific governments). The accusations in this book might not apply to your milkman, the Amish people, or the Polish government...but they do apply to "Western", that is, transnational, transcultural, institutions like "Christendom," "The Free World," "The Civilized World," "Developed Countries," "The G8", "The Francophonie," etc.

To clear up some of the criticisms leveled toward this book and others like it, let's talk about what this book is not:

It is NOT a guide to White people as individuals and the evil things they do. It is NOT a guide to the atrocities committed by White people or Europeans. It is NOT claiming that objectivity, logic, progress, or any of these things are BAD, nor is it claiming that their corruption and exploitation is something specific to Western Culture. It is NOT a criticism of any individual European culture (Irish, German, Italian, etc.)

It DOES however, point to general trends in the history of Western Civilization: concentration of power and wealth, usually at the expense of the masses; rapid industrialization for its own sake, usually at the expense of a constructive connection with nature; increasingly abstract and linear thinking, usually at the expense of holistic thinking; increasing universalism and evangelism in the propagation of those abstract and linear ideas, usually at the expense of the ideas of other cultures and the people who subscribe to them. Unlike Western authors, she does not sugarcoat these trends and the massive levels of destruction (human and environmental) as blips on the screen; she describes them as essential, consistent, and growing trends in Western Society. She highlights the way in which many of the social ills that are a part of human nature, and certainly not exclusive to Europeans, are manifested in an unprecedented scale in the West, in a way that sets the West apart from the rest.

To stray from academics and quote my favorite bumper sticker: "Never before have so few taken so much from so many for so long."

This book is, quite possibly, the best explanation I have ever read as to why.

If you don't have time or money to read it, there is a youtube interview she did where she basically explains the concepts in a concise way,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkkNa7eMyF0

Bear in mind it was written for a black audience in academic circles.
 

H-KQGE

Dagobah Resident
The problem you are having luke wilson (if you are having one that is) is trying to put what i said into a sound bite. Can't be done. My biases aren't hidden, as i gave just one or two so as not to clutter the page with my post which in the end, was longer than i intended. I did say that i was going to pick up on some posts & respond to them, the insinuation was that it would be my own experiences described & not a myopic view.

I could have spoken about Asians (Indians, Pakistanis) that i have had greater dealings with than my own black people. I could have chosen Turks that i've known. Muslims even. Yes that's a faith group, the point being that i've had more dealings with all these groups or races as you seem to prefer me to describe them ( i did say that i'm past all this stuff, i'm posting based on the past & the only thing ongoing is other Africans at work & their BS which i just brush off since i know them better now) than blacks. Keeping on point & all that. If i was unclear as seems to be the case then apologies, since you started the thread with something specific in mind.

Note that i added links to my to & fro posts on the Nigeria thread for context but that didn't work either. This form of communication is taking some getting used to. I posted as a black man that has been through & seen a lot of 1st hand activities that have been on a loop in the mainstream forever, things that someone with intelligence & humanity left can speak about to others who almost certainly have not experienced what i have & lived to tell the tale.
You can read into that last bit what you will, there's loads behind it. Think of those social workers or youth liaison rep people who were involved in gangland stuff. They can tell you things, they can show those who they are trying to help their credentials & speak their lingo. That's why i wanted to do that youth community worker thing in my mid-twenties but with my eyes & ears open as i've needed to my whole life i learned quickly that it wouldn't work. The system is the root problem (well at that time that's as far as i could penetrate by myself, only Laura's work with a few before her got me where i needed to be) & the stats for those doing that job weren't great. They would be extremely fortunate to help 1 out of 50 young people (& that help could be really minimal)
whilst risking their lives. Seen "Coach Carter" & all those kind of films? Ok. Half that drama, remove the rampant gun useage & you have something approaching some of my experiences here in the UK, in the 1990s.

I'm telling you just so we're clear, that i only know of new age love & light stuff from reading Laura's work! Hearing of this i wondered how i hadn't encountered it before but there you go. But i've been around lots of crime, wounded people, knives, death, thieves etc. Only guns weren't around me (unlike kids these days copying American kids & shooting everyone) but plenty of narcissistic folk 1 or 2 psychopaths for sure, plenty of slowly ponerized kids.
My "bias for whites" means i know them better than others, that's all. I was constantly on edge around "NF" (National Front - racist group) areas since where i lived for most of my life was around white semi-retired gang families & their associates & i survived (not that i was likely to be killed, but beaten almost to death sure, scared all the time yep) because i went to school with their kids & plenty of gangs interacted. Funnily enough the white & black gangs in school had masses of respect for one another save for a few wannabe gangsters.
But i don't wanna get dragged into pulling up all the rubbish that wasn't even mine from yesteryear, we all have our individual & cultural histories & i was simply fortunate to be the type of person that i am now, then (less experienced & knowledgeable) & what i've said could be seen as "who does he think he is?" or whatever but how many individuals from "minorities" do you know that was around the top crime families & culture in one country & then come into the Fourth Way Work? No? Didn't think so. So i'm at a loss to know where in my previous post you got "we're all one turn the other cheek work hard" from. You asked a question but answered it with that conclusion that was your own. As for the human race thing, that was a statement (another i assumed clear) about what i was taught in school. The past. As i stated right before the human race thing. Labels. If you're going to use labels use consistency & if changing notify that's it for me. No one i know has ever said "race" to me about anyone else, unless they were being racist. They call others by their countries & add people at the end. Latvians, Romanians, the English, or white people black people & my favourite; "yellow people." Who the heck is that?
Somewhere down the line you've made me to be an advocate for the status quo. WRONG! I've never spoken to anyone who doesn't get the race statement i made (queue a raft of members saying "i don't get it!) but that's my little corner of the world i suppose.

One last thing. You do not have to act white as a black person or be called Mike Smith to get ahead, though it maybe slightly easier i guess. It just so happens from what i know/have seen that those who fit that bill tend to be rather full of themselves & look down on the rest of not-so-successful blacks, this seems to be a western world phenomenon, the opposite side of the scale are full of it too wanting to be "top dog" or whatever inane concept motivates them. And still, i have held back on stuff that could fill a book, no joke, this as i said before is tedious since it was bad enough living through that period with people hell bent on ruining their lives & others, my friend who's one of those associates of said families described above, & i have spoken about this stuff till we were both blue in the face, (blacks turning blue, that's got to be a first!) & we both hold similar views on that period & the participants. He recently got into some trouble because of a so-called friend from that time (he's too trusting) & i've been telling him to ditch these types for years as they'll bring him down & his got a family to provide for.
And yes i'm talking about a white guy,& his white associates who aren't that far apart in what the black counterparts are like. I'm a product of my environment & i know i have done well to get here considering where i've been. My statements on what you're calling universalism was in reference to what the C's have informed us of which are always in my thoughts. Can you stop little Indian kids going missing? Can you stop the riots around the globe? What about the megabucks made by so-called charities that always go missing? We are all not created as equals, yet we face very similar issues at any point in history. I can't make this any clearer without creating another long post (which i don't like doing) & i wont do so.
 
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