Internal Racism

luke wilson

The Living Force
Buddy said:
If you're not feeling attached or identified with the issue and you are recognizing doubts, then you may be in a better position to find answers by simply digging deeper into and applying the knowledge of cognitive science to the issue and just follow the connections to where it all leads. As you just admitted to doing with the cognitive science info, my subjective impression is that you and I have similar tendencies to believe we have 'blinked' the essence of a thing and can then manage a discussion of a complex something all the way to a spot-on resolution.

But that's just an impression and something I'm working on myself.

On a lighter note, and FWIW, I've found Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking, by Malcolm Gladwell, and its complement, Think!: Why Crucial Decisions Can't Be Made in the Blink of an Eye, by Michael R. LeGault to be very helpful.

Thanks for your response.

Well, interesting and thinking about it, true but my impression of you is slightly different. Yes, I think you can 'blink' the essence of a thing but I think the way you experience the thing and the way you then explain it to others is very different from how I do. In my view you try and explain a thing in a kind of sci-fi sort of way. Don't really know how to say it better, maybe by using computer software analogy or neuroscience analogy but even in this case, since as you say, you might not have the 'detailed' sort of knowledge required (neuro science wise, not computer wise as I think you might actually work with them) then what you are saying might be what you think rather than what is.

I hope that last bit made sense. It most probably didn't. How would you explain it?

Anyways, with regard to moi, I agree and very astute observation I might add. I am lead by intuition (in the sense I have to feel something out, I have to get vague impressions that can't really be put in words) especially on the forum as in this environment compared to the real world, you can achieve a sort of 'silence' that can sort of allow you to dive inwards. In the real world, other things might come into play through the senses that will shut down the whole process entirely. With regard to the whole thing, I wouldn't say it is because I lack detailed knowledge even though this is true, but rather that is just how I am wired. Lack of detailed knowledge is pretty much true for everyone in nearly everything but that doesn't mean there might not be underlying varying biological tendencies in how we function individually. This intuition is like 'split second' involuntary, I don't sit around and wait, it just happens, I read something and it'll just pop into my head, sometimes without even finishing what I've read. It is like trying to condense words into a feeling. For example, that video, I saw your question and immediately got the impression

"He is interested in my level of knowledge, maybe what he is getting at is, it needs to be very detailed, oh wait, I have seen this before, oh yes, a couple of years back, that scene in that show, yes, yes, I have to find it and show him!!"

Anyways, so working the other way round and actually communicating i.e. trying to de-construct this feeling back into words so that I can communicate with others, then yes, I run into walls as here knowledge is useful and it provides the tools required. Here is where maybe the knowledge will show what you felt was wrong or maybe it was correct or maybe simply, insufficient knowledge to know either way.

So yes, 'blinking' a new term I have learnt but bear in mind as is anything we think we know, the above could be just what I tell myself or fooled myself into thinking.
 

Mr. Premise

The Living Force
H-KQGE said:
When you present a post (or series of posts) in this tone, you can't just say "please excuse" and everything will be fine. I get that something here drives you up the wall. I don't get why you don't just direct your attention elsewhere. Are you trying to correct some wrong here about the thinking expressed by the others that have posted to this topic? If so, could you get to the point in a few words? Right now your main issues are about clear about as mud to me, but what is coming across clearly is quite a bit of unpleasantness.

Ah megan! I was wondering if i would interact with you. I didn't expect it to be here though. Please & excuse me are used as a courtesy, you know politeness? Something you have neglected to be swooping from up high wherever you are into a discussion between myself & luke wilson. Although a public forum, although any member can drop into the threads to share something, what makes you think you can park your bus in front of my front door. Can you understand that analogy? Or am i muddying your clean crisp & clear waters?
Everything will be fine is your take on it megan oh sorry, "everything will be fine" is your take on it megan. Are my use of quotes allright now? Please let me go and brush up on my grammar to match your exacting standards. Heaven forbid that some quotes are missed, a few mis-spelt words. No. No one on the forum does that or will do that or megan might get them.
Where should i direct my attention eh? Off the topic or the board, maybe out of the forum. Is that what you prefer? I express myself on one post, injecting a bit of humour & telling a bit of my past that shows others how i've come to see what i have seen & what i now see (based on the posts of many i might add) adding hyperlinks to pages that are inexorably linked to this topic as an African man living in the UK & what do i get? You & your negative comments.

What am i supposed to be correcting on this thread exactly huh? You put yourself up as knowledgeable & with good attention, then pay attention! Some of your posts have not been clear, & "getting to the point" is not always easy when you are trying to express certain things. Or did you not recently use similar words on one of your recent posts? Did you expect that? Oh well, i suppose you did didn't you? You've certainly got me pegged.
Should 5-10 word posts suffice for you to curb my "unpleasantness."

So you thought that i said my post would be insightful yeah? Ok. You clearly have a talent for discernment then. Because a talent for one thing elsewhere automatically means the same like this topic that you've now barged your way in to with the grace of a one-eyed one-armed one-legged thief in the night trying to rob a home in broad daylight. Oh very clever megan, the "insightful" part at the end with the added dig about "draining", gorgeous. So will you write like yourself now or like whoever you're modelling yourself after? It's your prerogative to be unpleasant, & to think that this was one of those members who could teach something to me. Well you have. How not to be like you. Continue your attack, i have dealt with more than you'll ever know..
So to any offended by god knows what as i do not seek to offend anyone, apologies seriously. It seems that getting to grips with something new, taking time to think on what another has said before replying whilst being tired is unacceptable for me at least. Thanks a bunch megan.
H-K, you're being insulting and abusive here. Maybe you should take a deep breath and reread the forum guidelines.
 

Buddy

The Living Force
luke wilson said:
Well, interesting and thinking about it, true but my impression of you is slightly different. Yes, I think you can 'blink' the essence of a thing but I think the way you experience the thing and the way you then explain it to others is very different from how I do. In my view you try and explain a thing in a kind of sci-fi sort of way. Don't really know how to say it better, maybe by using computer software analogy or neuroscience analogy but even in this case, since as you say, you might not have the 'detailed' sort of knowledge required (neuro science wise, not computer wise as I think you might actually work with them) then what you are saying might be what you think rather than what is.

Exactly. Contrary to what Plato might say about 'truth' as he conceived it, all really is analogy and different people have different referents for words used...this is true. OSIT.

luke wilson said:
So yes, 'blinking' a new term I have learnt but bear in mind as is anything we think we know, the above could be just what I tell myself or fooled myself into thinking.

Same here and yep, that's where the value of networking comes in, I suppose. From my perspective, you're not wrong at all, but the observable patterns involved in 'internal racism' seem so obviously self-similar to all other patterns that divide people that it makes me wonder about people's knowledge of the essential cognitive mechanisms involved when they dive into specific topics.

I appreciate your feedback. :)
 

H-KQGE

Dagobah Resident
Muxel said:
Ok Luke, I think H-KQGE was only giving us his rationale for his preference of the word "tribe" over "race." Of course, the term "race" still means what it means in global discourse. I myself would say there are only two races: the "pre-Adamics" and the "Adamics," who have been interbreeding with each other for a very long time.

In my opinion the point where you and H-KQGE diverge is: he is talking about black people in the UK, and I took you to be referring to black people in America. African-Americans have come a long way as a group and cannot be equated with comparatively recent arrivals to the UK from various African nations. America's race drama has been going on for a long time, so what goes for blacks in America is not necessarily reflected by blacks in the UK, and vice versa.

Muxel i'm responding to you first as i see that you're still online & luke wilson is talking with Buddy.
But the main reason is to thank you for calling it as you saw it. Which was very clearly. Plus you broke it down well too. Crikey! I wanted to make a solitary post on a topic that is close to me (& all others of course) & be done with it. Hence the way i started the post, which i assumed would be understood that in person such a comment might have visual cues like an eye roll accompanied by a head shake and a wry smile for example. Lesson for the day: limit assumptions about forum members!

Yes! Someone can see a key point, the UK not US i can only give an even more subjective biased viewpoint on the US as i'm not there, (i did live there in the eighties though) & i'm not American. They have to tell me their view if they so wish, just like i can give my view from here. Because i had to write another post in response to the first i gave a background for context. I would love to see others try & shorten massive chunks of their life that are key to the topic at hand. You would go as long as i did or longer. The "tribe/race" thing was my point. It's like people just skipped the part about being taught that. I was also thinking about "Adamics" & "pre-Adamics" too. But i could see my million miles an hour thought-process was likely to overload & leave me rambling if i forgot what i wanted to say. I could have gone on about as i said other cultures & i gave examples but the flow of the previous pages (1,2,3) seemed to be centering on black people so i thought "tell them your experiences."
 

luke wilson

The Living Force
Buddy, apologies, I keep calling you Bud. It is out of habit. I saw the thread that lead to the changing of the name back to its original form so hopefully I haven't brought up any horrible memories.

Anyways I have to answer this

Buddy said:
luke wilson said:
I am aware of system 1 and system 2 though every now and again I get confused as to which is which.

For purposes of what I'm referring to, the torturer in that video clip could represent system 1 and the victim could represent system 2.

luke wilson said:
Hopefully, eventually, once it becomes more familiar, with time, both systems will sync up so one can have both intuitive and a detailed understanding at the ready.

You mean like that last line of the clip:

I would be ten times what you are if I had that tech in my head.

Maybe if we could put them both together with no internal inconsistencies we might come close to a state of being like that? I think I've got that last sentence stuck in my head, now.

What did Yoda say? Do or do not, there is no hoping. :whistle:

So in that clip, the person being tortured (victim), who you have designated as system 2 is actually in essence of the whole show, the torturer and the one doing the torturing i.e. system 1 is in essence of the whole show, the one being tortured. That clip omits the wider context.

With regards with putting them together to achieve something greater, well in the narrative of the show, the person who was doing the torturing in that scene did it, after that little encounter. What he found was that his body was incompatible and that it slowly changed to omit his emotions in that everything was intellectualized i.e. to make him more like the person he was torturing in that the intellect over-rode everything to the point where whatever biological phenomena in the body gives rise to emotions exist, they atrophied into oblivion.

So interesting concepts, no...

Just discussing that scene here since you posed some questions, no wider implications into the realms of reality...

Oh yes, I am sure internal racism figures into this somehow, just to stay on topic.... :whistle:
 

H-KQGE

Dagobah Resident
Mr Premise thank you. I felt that i was beginning to get ganged up on so i needed to defend myself. My way was to respond with extreme sarcasm - in my eyes anyway. So apologies to you especially to megan & luke wilson who i've been trying to get to but the posts keep coming in & my typing was slow, & i was trying to look at all our previous exchanges. You wouldn't believe that i was practicing "not letting the heat rise above the neck" would you? The momentum of feeling boxed in & fight or flight was gearing up fast. Again apologies to any that might see this & be offended or think that the forum runs anything like this. It does not.
 

luke wilson

The Living Force
H-K

Hopefully now we can talk? I'm going to post to you before calling it a day...

I think you showed a different part of yourself on this thread. Not that, that is a bad thing but I think this is something. Your comment to megan was just, wow, and not in a good way.

Why this other you emerged is something you might want to look into as there might be some stuff to learn about yourself there...

Just saying, but I don't know how you would approach it without abusing the living daylight out of anyone that decided to tag along for the journey...
 

Buddy

The Living Force
H-KQGE has stated how tired he is and I know from experience how vulnerable I am to all my programming while in this state, so speaking for myself, I wouldn't engage him unless he is willing to state his willingness to consider the feedback for purposes of self-work in a fourth-way context. But maybe this is just me since I want to practice more external consideration until I get an idea if a certain member is still considered to be a newbie. I could use a bit of clarification, I guess.
 

truth seeker

The Living Force
Buddy said:
Well, if its all connected, and I agree that it is all connected, what is the payoff for launching a discussion of this particular symptom, in abstracto, when you agree the problem is much larger? You knew there would be no concrete answers forthcoming unless you wish to claim full clarity of your own system 1.
Frankly, I don't see the problem with bringing up this topic. I mean, we discuss feminism, sexism, sometimes homophobia, zionism, etc. why not this?

Just my opinion, but the race program seems to still be one issue that people still shy away from which unfortunately hasn't done much in the way of healing relationships between people. Perhaps if we can view this as an opportunity to be the one group who decides to discuss this (because ignoring something doesn't make it go away) in a manner that helps others to place it within a larger context, maybe someone will be helped by it?

***

Just a general note, it would be great if those posting can do so in a calm, respectful manner without the use of slurs (racial or otherwise).
 

Buddy

The Living Force
luke wilson said:
With regards with putting them together to achieve something greater, well in the narrative of the show, the person who was doing the torturing in that scene did it, after that little encounter. What he found was that his body was incompatible and that it slowly changed to omit his emotions in that everything was intellectualized i.e. to make him more like the person he was torturing in that the intellect over-rode everything to the point where whatever biological phenomena in the body gives rise to emotions exist, they atrophied into oblivion.

Wow, I didn't know all that. I was just referring to a more superficial comparison: victim as the intellect part that can stay mentally focused and cognizant while suffering and the torturer as primal emotion or the emotional part of us with the critical faculties off-line. But then, I don't know how well that comparison works for someone who has watched that movie. I haven't.

BTW, "Bud" is ok anytime. I actually wanted to go back to it eventually, just because I like the way it sounds.

Apologies if this is off topic, I just didn't want to leave any errant impressions of what I was meaning to convey.
 

Muxel

Dagobah Resident
Yeah, Luke, and anyone else, I'm sorry about my use of the n-word if you had found it insensitive. I used it in parody but I can understand if that's still wrong.


Edit: *a parody of the rant of someone who has flipped over to become a black-hating person after one experience of being mugged by a black man.
 

Iron

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
Some posters may do well in remembering that sarcasm and agressive satire add nothing to the discussion.
On the contrary, they only serve to show the lack of self control of the poster.
Remember that in the end, you are sitting on the front of your laptop or pc. Words here can not really do harm, so there is no need for defensiveness or passive-agressiveness and engaging in those behaviours can quickly put an end to an otherwise productive discussion.

Also I want to second what Truth Seeker said. Why do you feel this particular topic is not worthy of discussion Buddy?
 

H-KQGE

Dagobah Resident
Buddy said:
H-KQGE has stated how tired he is and I know from experience how vulnerable I am to all my programming while in this state, so speaking for myself, I wouldn't engage him unless he is willing to state his willingness to consider the feedback for purposes of self-work in a fourth-way context. But maybe this is just me since I want to practice more external consideration until I get an idea if a certain member is still considered to be a newbie. I could use a bit of clarification, I guess.

Hello Buddy. I wasn't very tired, just tired. My arm was hurting a bit & my sitting positions always give me problems. Dont worry people i'm not gonna bite, the moderator (Mr Premise) has yellow carded me (warning) &
i feel really bad for offending all of you guys. For 2 years i have read these pages in limited form as i never had my own computer, & have thought of all of you even though i don't really know or have met you, as my other family. I have been a loner from day 1 & i need to connect with others of similar being. So i hope you'll forgive that show of force earlier.
Thank you Mr Premise for the non-confrontational way you stepped in because i've always had to keep quiet when being verbally abused & only recently have i started to speak up for myself since there was never anyone there. Buddy are you calling for a "mirror"? Doesn't that involve a lengthy piece about who you are etc? Of course feedback is welcome! truth seeker, i would've liked to have participated in discussions on those topics but then this happened. Thanks to Iron & Muxel too. Farewell.
 

luke wilson

The Living Force
H-K

I'd just like to add, this right here, the situation you've just engineered for yourself, this is the stuff the work is all about. This is the stuff that results in spiritual growth. This is the stuff that you gotta power through, this is essentially the battleground. You have to meet the situation with honesty and sincerity.

Get some rest, recover your energy and meet this situation head on is what I say. You were outside looking in and wanted to participate then, now you are inside and have the opportunity, not to only do it on a superficial level but to really get your teeth into it.

Good nite!!!
 
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