Introduction

[obyvatel]

...The balance is always between individual predatory behaviour, and collective predatory behaviour...

I do not understand the above statement. Can you please clarify?

 

[Loud John]

Quote: Domwatts23 could perhaps use this opportunity to write a concise account of what he and his friend have discussed in a journal, use the search function to check whether these topics have already been discussed here in the forum and then determine whether it is new information for the forum and if it is, post it here? That by the way is the standard procedure that is recommended to be followed for every forum member here.

Thank you that is what I was not getting. My computer skills are lacking making the search function somewhat deficient but I will deal with that in time. The forum does get a little bogged down when it takes 90 posts to get to this conclusion.

 

[Laura]

It would serve everyone well to read John Keel's book "Operation Trojan Horse".

 

[luke wilson]

Perhaps this issue is personal to you for some reason?

Not overly personal - I just prefer airing on the side of inclusion, creativity and discovery.

No worries, Happyville. We are very inclusive, creative and enjoy the wonders of discovery. I would have thought that you were aware of that being a member here for almost 4 years now? :)

I might be wrong, I am struggling to keep up with how the discussion is evolving... I think the difference about this forum and most other forums or avenues of communication is that creativity here is a very specific thing, meaning that which is out of the ego. But the ego/self-importance is what everybody knows and when they see they can't express it, even if when to them it is seen as something creative/genuine etc, it might appear as repression or non-inclusion. So some people might repress this, since it is imposed when as al today says, you see many people come and go, mostly because of tendencies they display that everyone seems to jump on, abit like a group thing, and say 'that was wrong'. But maybe to other people 'deep' inside they don't understand why it was wrong but they go with it nonetheless. Over-time it builds up and when an opportunity such as this arises, they display there dissatisfaction.

So in this case, domwatts23 has had a very personal experience, which as some might see has been labelled, 'not very important'. However, alot of people have had alot of different other-worldly personal experiences, which to them, eventhough it was subjective, has been labelled 'not very important'. I assume to someone who has had a highly mystical experience it kind of stings when you hear someone say, 'actually that isn't that unique or special' just like a victim of abuse will take pain from being told the 'abuse he/she suffered is very common and not special whatsoever'. Now they are annoyed because all of a sudden, as domwatts23 says, 'they have been nothinged' since most take there personal worth, as in how special they are, 'from the mystical experiences they have' atleast in this context where money and other measures of 'special-ness' that operate in the outside world don't function.

So that is how I am reading it so far. FWIW. 2 cents.

 

[MoskoeOne]

I'll use the example of emotional predator:

- An emotional predator tends to rely on certain societal norms and expectations, which have come out of collective habits and different relational structures. They (usually in a very subtle manner), go about putting you in situations where you would like to violate these norms.

- If you do, they attempt to collect these instances as currency, where you 'owe' them something in return (usually an emotional perspective toward them expressed through words or action). If you don't they have found a way to control your behaviour.

A group can actually create certain norms and expectations (again usually very subtle ones) in order to regulate its environment. These norms can favour the emotional nourishment of a select committed number in the group,- just one (in the instance of just one it leaves itself open to the accusation of cult-ishness), or it can favour non-committed members (which leaves itself open to its emotional resources being used up by new-comers.)

-emotional interchanges are an inevitable part of human interaction so emotional predator is a subjective term, and these things do effect different people to more and lesser degrees as they are interchanges which are monitered by the intellect.
-The example of balance in this case, is whether or not the freedom exists to discuss whatever material is desired to be discussed, which hasn't been challenged, but that is one factor of the context of the request for a blog link to the 100,000 words by Domwatts.

 

[MoskoeOne]

Laura could you explain why you think the book might be helpful? So we can reflect on whether its relevance is pressing for us personally?

 

[luke wilson]

Take MoskoeOne for example,

According to his profile overview he is brand new to the forum. Now he is displaying what he thinks. Ideas that up to now have held great value to him, after all, through this ideas, his perceived identity, he found this forum. A place where from outside, he thought, finally, a place where I can fit. Be amongst equals...

However, through a series of discussions and replies, he will soon discover that actually, the ideas that he cherished so much that brought him here after all, don't hold much water. Now he can fight and defend them to his detriment or he can make a choice of compromise. The third option is the most unlikely where he will actually see the points of the admins and be transformed by them... I think this is unlikely because in 3D communication like that just doesn't happen.

Now if he compromises, he is going to go around with a tiny little wound in him, a wound that will always be fresh and never heal. The only thing left is the 'opportunity' where he can come forward and 'avenge' his wound.

I believe this right here is such an opportunity. Not for MoskoeOne, but for others crazy enough to step forward. Why am I thinking this way? Because, sadly, I identify with all these people. And to my mind, even the most reformed person isn't that reformed, I am yet to meet true transformation, to me, everybody is carrying a wound that they somehow don't want to express due to various reasons... Especially in group situations where the group ideal holds more value than the individual ideal. I find the thing that most people don't understand, even me and I have suffered greatly for it, is that by participating in a group, you agreed to an implied contract - and that is the thing, no one is sure as to the exact terms since it is a whole group thing. And it is rare, that your values/desires/thoughts and wishes allign perfectly with the terms of the contract. Thus the inevitable conflict..

More thoughts..

 

[Laura]

Laura could you explain why you think the book might be helpful? So we can reflect on whether its relevance is pressing for us personally?

No, because it gives a whole slew of examples of how "paranormal" or "mystical" experiences are used by hyperdimensional predators to vector people. Another good one along the same line of force is Karla Turner's "Masquerade of Angels."

I think that what has gotten lost here is that we are trying to convey that "experiences" aren't what it is all about. Yes, they happen, but they can happen to about anyone for a LOT of reasons, not especially beneficial either.

Just curious: have you read "Secret History"?

 

[truth seeker]

However, through a series of discussions and replies, he will soon discover that actually, the ideas that he cherished so much that brought him here after all, don't hold much water. Now he can fight and defend them to his detriment or he can make a choice of compromise. The third option is the most unlikely where he will actually see the points of the admins and be transformed by them... I think this is unlikely because in 3D communication like that just doesn't happen.

Actually, I think this happens quite often here. All of us come here with our own preconceptions about the world and many of us have been quite surprised upon learning that all is not as it seems. This is a transformation, yes?

Now if he compromises, he is going to go around with a tiny little wound in him, a wound that will always be fresh and never heal. The only thing left is the 'opportunity' where he can come forward and 'avenge' his wound.

I think you fail to see that the 'wound' as you call it doesn't begin here. We all arrive here already wounded. Whether one chooses to attempt to heal or not, depends upon them.

I believe this right here is such an opportunity. Not for MoskoeOne, but for others crazy enough to step forward. Why am I thinking this way? Because, sadly, I identify with all these people. And to my mind, even the most reformed person isn't that reformed, I am yet to meet true transformation, to me, everybody is carrying a wound that they somehow don't want to express due to various reasons... Especially in group situations where the group ideal holds more value than the individual ideal. I find the thing that most people don't understand, even me and I have suffered greatly for it, is that by participating in a group, you agreed to an implied contract - and that is the thing, no one is sure as to the exact terms since it is a whole group thing. And it is rare, that your values/desires/thoughts and wishes allign perfectly with the terms of the contract. Thus the inevitable conflict..

Perhaps that's the real issue? When we become identified with anything, it keeps us living in illusion and unable to see the crux of the matter. Because of your identification with past wounds that have been afflicted through your own past, you view the world in black and white terms - persecuted and persecutor. The inability to discern - in this case to always see yourself as the victim - is a refusal to take responsibility for your own past and current thinking that keeps you there. This denial of responsibility also keeps you comfortable as it reflects your own upbringing and the mechanisms developed that helped a small child survive. The problem comes when one grows up and finds that those same mechanisms no longer work yet are applied - projected - onto any situation that allows you to continue playing the role of victim. This keeps one chasing their tail so to speak. This can also be applied to experiences relating to high strangeness.

edit: clarity

 

[Happyville]

I agree that a pissing match about the 10,000 words and the endless sidebars - currently seems fruitless!

 

[Al Today]

[...] Be amongst equals... [...]

Each of us are on a different path of travel. Even if on the same path, each is at a different point. Each of us are unique with different life experience and environment. No, methinks we are not equal.

[...] The third option is the most unlikely where he will actually see the points of the admins and be transformed by them... I think this is unlikely because in 3D communication like that just doesn't happen. [...]

True, our communication does lack precision. But as new thoughts are developed, visualized, then new words are created with practice and networking. Plus, words alone should not transform anyone. 'Tis up to each individual to contemplate and research a subject to arrive at a potential conclusion. Each needs to network with others such as this to discuss said views and find out if it sticks to the wall (so to say). Alone, we are open to misconception and deceit.

[...] Now if he compromises, he is going to go around with a tiny little wound in him, a wound that will always be fresh and never heal. The only thing left is the 'opportunity' where he can come forward and 'avenge' his wound. [...]

Methinks this occurs to those either not ready or not able to follow the path of the warrior. May not be their "time" or this is not even to happen. One may even develop or have an agenda to inflict damage on others. Fighting sacred cows hurts emotionally. For sundry reasons, some, if not many are not willing for these confrontations. We must be aware of this and accept this fact.

[...] I am yet to meet true transformation, to me, everybody is carrying a wound that they somehow don't want to express due to various reasons... [...]

Depends upon what is expected by the word "transformation". If the expectation is a persons' DNA changes and they now have the ability to travel between densities, have paranormal powers/abilities, or evolve into a superior being? Then no, I also have never met one.

But if a person evolves in knowledge and growth into a "better" human being. If one grows more knowledgeable of this mechanical life and more aware of the environment that surrounds them... If one can Work towards understanding and actions, work away from carnal selfishness and emanate outwards to their fellow human being and this BBM, then yes, I have met one. For I myself believe I am not the same person I was nearly 10 years ago and am continuing to transform.

edit: clarification and spelling again... :P

 

[luke wilson]

Actually, I think this happens quite often here. All of us come here with our own preconceptions about the world and many of us have been quite surprised upon learning that all is not as it seems. This is a transformation, yes?

Yes, I suppose it is but I think it is the most unlikely one possible. People who have gone decades in there lives believing one thing don't just change... Maybe with time they do through the lessons and discussions that feed into a sort of understanding and transformation... That is how I think of it. I also think most people know that all isn't as it seems, otherwise they won't be here, but I don't think most know exactly how deep that rabbit hole goes. Why else does cointelpro exist? I admit I don't know, as you have stated, I am currently locked in my own room of mirrors and shadows.

I think you fail to see that the 'wound' as you call it doesn't begin here. We all arrive here already wounded. Whether one chooses to attempt to heal or not, depends upon them.

I agree but I think most 'truth seekers' see that aspect of themselves, that 'driving force' that has enabled them to make such inroads in this delicate matter as precious and sacred and 'not wounded.' Why else does everyone think they are awake? Countless articles on SOTT written by countless writers from all over the world in all spheres of life, all proclaiming to know the deception and decephiring it for readers, yet am sure the authors themselves, think they are fully awake. Take that les visibles guy, in one of his most recent articles, he stood by sott but said, this doesn't mean I agree with everything, since to him, 'his truth' is slightly different from SOTTS and he won't have any of anyone telling him to change what he thinks is the most sacred thing in his life.

Perhaps that's the real issue? When we become identified with anything, it keeps us living in illusion and unable to see the crux of the matter. Because of your identification with past wounds that have been afflicted through your own past, you view the world in black and white terms - persecuted and persecutor. The inability to discern - in this case to always see yourself as the victim - is a refusal to take responsibility for your own past and current thinking that keeps you there. This denial of responsibility also keeps you comfortable as it reflects your own upbringing and the mechanisms developed that helped a small child survive. The problem comes when one grows up and finds that those same mechanisms no longer work yet are applied - projected - onto any situation that allows you to continue playing the role of victim. This keeps one chasing their tail so to speak. This can also be applied to experiences relating to high strangeness.

I don't think identification is that bad. Without identification one can't hold himself in one place. The only reason I can perceive anything around me through my senses is because my senses identify with the stimuli, like light, touch, sound etc. Laura got where she is because she is identified to seeking truth...

Maybe I don't understand what you mean?

 

[luke wilson]

Al Today, I agree with what you have to say.. You said it in a more clear way than I could. What you said is what I was aiming at.

Depends upon what is expected by the word "transformation". If the expectation is a persons' DNA changes and they now have the ability to travel between densities, have paranormal powers/abilities, or evolve into a superior being? Then no, I also have never met one.

But if a person evolves in knowledge and growth into a "better" human being. If one grows more knowledgeable of this mechanical life and more aware of the environment that surrounds them... If one can Work towards understanding and actions, work away from carnal selfishness and emanate outwards to their fellow human being and this BBM, then yes, I have met one. For I myself believe I am not the same person I was nearly 10 years ago and am continuing to transform.

I meant people leaving behind that which they think is really precious that has guided them through out there life and embracing something new.. I agree in life, you change as you grow and as the environment around you changes. But still, there are fundamental principles that follow you through out your life, principles that you even teach your children etc. Now, to you, this principles represent the best way to live life and have served you well. But what if, you happen to come across another person with a different set of principles that are in opposition to yours. Transformation in this sense would be you taking on his principles and leaving yours behind. Who's is right and who's is wrong, if both have served each well...? This is the kind of argument I wanted to make...

As you can see it is dealing with shadows that can result in conflicts and wounds of all kinds.

Anyways, now I find myself in a labyrinth that I don't want to be in. So apologies for taking this off-topic.

 

[ana]

I don't think identification is that bad. Without identification one can't hold himself in one place. The only reason I can perceive anything around me through my senses is because my senses identify with the stimuli, like light, touch, sound etc.

This in its turn is connected with one of the fundamental characteristics of man's attitude towards himself and to all his surroundings. Namely, his constant 'identification' with what at a given moment has attracted his attention, his thoughts or his desires, and his imagination.

Identification' is so common a quality that for purposes of observation it is difficult to separate it from everything else. Man is always in a state of identification, only the object of identification changes.

A man identifies with a small problem which confronts him and he completely forgets the great aims with which he began his work. He identifies with one thought and forgets other thoughts; he is identified with one feeling, with one mood, and forgets his own wider thoughts, emotions, and moods. In work on themselves people are so much identified with separate aims that they fail to see the wood for the trees. Two or three trees nearest to them represent for them the whole wood.

Identifying' is one of our most terrible foes because it penetrates everywhere and deceives a man at the moment when it seems to him that he is struggling with it. It is especially difficult to free oneself from identifying because a man naturally becomes more easily identified with the things that interest him most, to which he gives his time, his work, and his attention. In order to free himself from identifying a man must be constantly on guard and be merciless with himself, that is, he must not be afraid of seeing all the subtle and hidden forms which identifying takes.

It is necessary to see and to study identifying to its very roots in oneself. The difficulty of struggling with identifying is still further increased by the fact that when people observe it in themselves they consider it a very good trait and call it 'enthusiasm,' 'zeal,' 'passion,' 'spontaneity,' 'inspiration,' and names of that kind, and they consider that only in a state of identifying can a man really produce good work, no matter in what sphere. In reality of course this is illusion. Man cannot do anything sensible when he is in a state of identifying. If people could see what the state of identifying means they would alter their opinion. A man becomes a thing, a piece of flesh; he loses even the small semblance of a human being that he has. In the East where people smoke hashish and other drugs it often happens that a man becomes so identified with his pipe that he begins to consider he is a pipe himself. This is not a joke but a fact. He actually becomes a pipe. This is identifying.

Laura got where she is because she is identified to seeking truth...

It is soul questing:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/mouravieff.htm

Q: (L) What is it that gives some people this drive, this steamroller effect that they are determined to get to the absolute bottom of everything and strip away every lie until there is nothing left but the naked truth? What is the source of this desire?
A: Wrong concept. It is simply that one is at that point on the learning cycle. At that point, no drive is needed.
Q: (L) So, you more or less are there because some critical mass has been reached that 'jumps' you to the point where seeking truth is simply who you are? It defines the parameters of your being.

 

[luke wilson]

Holy macaroni, I am a willing slave to identification.

How does one overcome this Ana? My thought process of it is that it is in-escapable. The way G describes it makes it seem that no matter what we do, we become identified so how can we do something without identification. When is, identification not identification? Are there examples?

EDIT: Wait, I think he means we get identified with something new, we forget the old guiding principle.. Not that identification in itself is bad.

This in its turn is connected with one of the fundamental characteristics of man's attitude towards himself and to all his surroundings. Namely, his constant 'identification' with what at a given moment has attracted his attention, his thoughts or his desires, and his imagination