Is There an Ideal Way of Acting and Being in Male-Female Relationships?

Men seem to focus on the theme that the heroes are always rich and influential, but that is not what gets them the lady. It's nice to have that, and does show evidence of some traits that are attractive, but mainly it makes for a better story because...... imagine the opposite!
I agree with the above points when talking about women of this forum and similar non-damaged, non-OP women. As a young man with less knowledge it was easy to miss this and see how the average women behaved. I do think for the average OP and damaged women being rich (money), influential (status), + looks ( The LMS (looks, money, status) paradigm that is often espoused in the manosphere) is largely correct and can certainly get you chicks.

For sure! And looks, money, success are something that can turn most women's heads, at least momentarily. Because it can be evidence of traits that are attractive. Like physical health and heroic tendencies. It really is much like what I said about most guys heads being turned by the hourglass figure. A nice figure can be evidence of health and promise femininity.

My point about that is that this is usually not enough for most healthy people. Men's focus on the theme of becoming LMS to get chicks without developing the traits that it is supposed to promise, is like women getting plastic surgery for hourglass figures. Sure, lots of people will be attracted to each other at first glance. But, eh, where's that gonna go?

Thinking back on how this thread started with discussion about Sandra Brown, I may be incorrect as I haven't read this book for a while, but I recall one of her main premises being that "high status" women, or women who were intelligent, beautiful, vivacious, out-going and loving were particularly in danger of falling for psychopaths and often ended up in relationships with them. They were often the main targets of these predators and Sandra's book wrote of ways for them to protect themselves.

If it is true, that women largely end up in long term relationships due to unique individual factors, and it is not so easy to describe generic ways in which a man can create a strong bond with a woman, then doesn't that mean that Sandra's book and premise is, at least to a degree, untrue? Perhaps the women who truly fall for these man are not so "super". Made me think of one of Joe's earlier posts where he mentioned that the information in the book was, perhaps, somewhat out of date.

I do think the information is somewhat out of date. I think she said that in the other thread, and I'd like to know what her new material is. But to your question, I think there could be ways to describe how a man can create a 'strong bond' with a woman. But there are two different ways to go about it; the psychopathic way way, which is 'bait and switch', falsely promising heroism, tailoring his act to the specific woman, and then creating cognitive dissonance by playing mind games and chemical rushes. And then there is the honest way that that is based on, being a true hero who loves his woman and can create chemical bonding by more positive means. So, as to the premise of the book being somewhat untrue, that not only do psychopaths target certain 'super' women, but that in return the psychos are considered especially attractive by those 'super' women, I would say not so much that I can see. It seems to me that psychos just know how to mimic a hero pretty well and play to her individual preferences. And although that can be attractive to most women, some women have trouble settling for less. I don't think having a high criteria makes these women less super, but not having enough discernment certainly does.
 
@Andromeda made a good point to me on this topic recently. What about different types of people and purported OPs? Is it possible (likely even) that a lot of this kind of literature on "how to attract women" is using 'OP' women as a reference? Women who are largely content to be seen as 'giggling feminine girls' by men, and little more.

In that case, where does that leave women who are and want, let's say, more than that?

Also, does this kind of literature not run the risk of encouraging narcissism in men that read it, where the are encouraged to view ALL women from that oversimplified perspective, and that the "most natural" way for a woman to be is a kind of "little lady" constantly fawning over her big burly caricature of a manly husband?

And if and when, later in a relationship, these men find out that their girlfriends or wives are not content with that framing of the relationship, and rebel against it in their "evil wily womanly ways", the men get all upset and claim that their girlfriends/wives have been "mind programmed by feminism".

From this perspective, it's more understandable why Sandra Brown labeled the first post as being "sexist". I suppose what she MIGHT have meant by that is that it fails to take into consideration the differences and nuances and complexities of women, in favor of an over-simplified, arrogant and obtuse analysis (however true in certain situations for some women).

The 'manosphere' is, as far as I can tell, exclusively focused on the biological and material aspects of attraction and gender roles in relationships, family and in duties and work. I think this can be instructive in examining sex dependent biological needs that are natural to instinctive and biological drives, but there seem to be some fundamental things that are either missing or faulty in the larger conversation. Biological drives and instincts are an aspect of our mind, but there are also conditions that can distort or lead those drives astray. In other words, these things are like our 'horse', which has essential functions however that horse cannot be wild and it does need proper training and guidance, and I don't see too many of main figures in the 'manosphere' really talking about this aspect. Jordan Peterson shines in this area and the 'tonic masculinity' discussions on substack are also giving a needed voice to the topic.

One of the most glaring issues, that seems to relate to this problem is Darwinism is a significant if not predominant influence, which makes our relationships and drives / motivations out to be purely based on materialism/ biology. And that it is the competitive, dog eat dog world that creates success or failure. In this there really isn't much room for the experience and development of love and how that is a driving force for communication and mutual understanding, of sharing and working on vulnerabilities, of sharing and working on misconceptions, and various programs we develop throughout life. Relationships seem one of natures way of getting us to work on ourselves and to learn our 'karmic and simple understandings'. It is also where deeply held programs can surface. At times and on the exterior this can appear chaotic but I think if it is approached with sincerity, effort, and love it is where you can be come to both know yourself and another, and use that knowledge to grow deeper connections, improve yourself, and work toward your ideal.

This relates in a way to the ridiculous tweet by Rollo Tomassi that Beau posted. He and others like him have a very twisted view of what it is to be a 'knight' or your ideal person. They focus pretty much exclusively on material pursuits as the ideal. There is simply no inner work to be done other then setting your horse toward material gain. Same might be said of 'motivation' gurus like David Goggins and Jocko Willink. An argument I've seen a handful of times from clips from some of the popular figures/shows in the manosphere (Kevin Samuels, Tate, FreshandFit podcast, The Whatever podcast, etc.) is this idea surrounding a 'high value man' and that he does not need to come home from work and have to deal with the problems of his girlfriend/ partner. That right there demonstrates how many of these guys view 'relationships' and women. It's narcissistic and juvenile, without meaning, discovery, intimacy or growth. They come across as just looking for an extension of themselves to act and behave the way they want.

And so this leads to another fundamental that is missing which is the understanding of the predator's mind and how that ties in heavily with the biological mind as well as our lower emotional body. We are what we feed our minds and what we give to others, and these guys are focused on a lot of material things as well as just things that are trash. Perhaps those things might provide for an outlet, but it is not providing things that give people real meaning and purpose. Maybe it can provide enough purpose for an OP, but it will likely just lead to suffering for men who need something more.
 
I believe that the only heroic King that exists and his love the lady Goddess is subject and waiting to be unlocked by oneself when one is in resonance with the productive aspects of the self and aligned to SAD.
Soul mates committed to the work of true love.


 
It seems that a lot of what we see happening in the West is tied up in this strange question of 'what is a woman?' This got its start with the fairy godmother of feminism, Simone du Beauvoir:

In Simone de Beauvoir's famous work The Second Sex (https://amzn.to/43I96q7), she wrote one of the most famous lines in feminist thought: "One is not born but becomes woman." This statement, and her articulation of what it means, outlines the modern-turned-postmodern Gnostic cult we know as feminism. Her point is that women, meaning people who are female, have two choices in how they "become woman." They can follow the social expectations laid upon them by patriarchal society, in effect becoming Woman-for-Man, or they can throw off the entire sex binary, patriarchal control, and all societal expectations and, in effect, become Woman-in-Herself, the gnostically liberated Woman as she can only be outside of the influence of the demiurgic power of patriarchal society.


So women are not born, but made. I think that's fair enough, and can be true for everyone. It's an expression of human potential. I found it interesting that she's using the same logic as the older understanding, the need to craft human beings. But de Beauvoir's point was to subvert the older understanding of men and women being made for each other, and open up the option for women to step away from the 'energetic union'.

As has been mentioned here already, part of what makes feminism good COINTELPRO is that it contains an element of truth. Laura write in The Wave that 3D earth has a major current of 'murdering the feminine'. There is the fact of predatory men. The trick was to begin extending an understanding of predatory men to include all men and society itself. This thinking may have been all the more acceptable after the horrors of WWII. As it took hold, I think one effect was the empowerment of predatory women.

Now it's all gone bonkers with the trans movement that posits that a woman is anyone who says they are a woman. It's a textbook case of 'women are not born, but made'. Watching the horrible social implications of this idea of womanhood roll out has been crazy. It's not easy to watch.

Matt Walsh and other conservative voices have found their own answer in that a woman is 'adult human female'. When I first heard it, I thought that this is a decent enough rebuttal to the trans movement's denial of reality, and a good example of men defending women and children. But I also liked John Carter's analysis of the conservative ideal of a woman, what he calls a 'wheat field tradwife'. He says its just as empty as the trans movement version of woman, or just as fake as OnlyFans e-girls. I'm not sure if that's totally true, but I Iiked it as a way to question easy answers provided ready-made by conservative media.

From what I'm reading here about the manosphere dudes, they have their own answer to 'What is a woman?' There's the psychology of women's traits, combined with a biological drives, and also a general understanding of patters of male/female attraction, all of which is true at some level. This provides men with a kind of operating manual that can be used for any number of purposes, from gaining confidence in dating all the way to more effective predation. To my eyes it looks like the manosphere agrees with Walsh's somewhat flat answer that a woman is an adult human female, but an element of action is added to it.

Then there's the approach to this question 'what is a woman' as it might be seen from a deeper understanding of reality. This piece by Luc opened things up for me in a really good way:

In some sense, one might even agree with Macy Grey who (in)famously said, in a mea culpa moment after having been harassed by the trans activist mob, being a woman is a “vibe.”

But only in some sense. Because clearly, what we mean by woman has to do with biology as well. It’s just that it would be ridiculous to reduce this meaning to “reproductive organs” or chromosomes. In many ways, such definitions are a crutch, a reaction to the gender ideologues. We don’t need biology to know what a woman is.

So—does that mean the gender ideologues are off the hook? Au contraire.

What I said here is the reason why the assault on womanhood by the gender-benders is even more insidious than it at first seems: not only do we lose the straight-forward, although unsatisfactory, biological answer. No, their mind games are much more destructive and evil than that.

We risk losing the bottomless richness of our intuitive, non-verbal understanding of what a woman is. The kind of knowledge that is as sure as it gets, and because of that, cannot be expressed in words.

In short, we risk losing the history of the entire cosmos; our connection to the infinite depth of our existence, to every experience we have from cradle to grave; to our entire history, society, dreams, drives, feelings, aspirations; our connection to something higher, above our whims, to true love.

We not only lose some biological definition. We lose All and Everything.

That was a breath of fresh air amidst all this cultural tumult. The mention of 'All and Everything' reminded me of the book by J.G. Bennett called Sex; the relationship between sex and spiritual development. He writes that sex has two normal functions - regulation of emotion or appeasement of drives, and reproduction. There is also the third function of sex as an expression as Love. There is no clear definition of a woman in what he writes, but rather the description of marriage as a powerful process of forming a conduit for higher energies. I infer that without a woman it's not possible.

"As for the third sexual function, we can see that it plays virtually no part in today's world. We have taken old traditions and have not looked at their relevance for a modern society. Our monogamous system, with one man and one woman permanently mated, very seldom works in practice because we have taken the kernal of truth - that marriage is one of the most sacred things in human life - and misinterpreted it, turned it into something utterly degrading by the imposition on people of a pattern of life where there is no corresponding inner reality. Marriage in the true sense, that is the indissoluble union between male and female, active and passive principles, represents the pinnacle of human life, and cannot be demanded of those who are not capable of it. It is not merely wrong, but even impious, to fasten onto people a label which they are not capable of bearing, and the awkwardness of our present social arrangement is that it is based, not only on a misunderstanding of human nature, but also on an even more serious misunderstanding of spiritual reality.

If the regulative and procreative roles of sex could be rightly established, then marriage could be seen for what it truly is. It would be understood by all to be a source of blessing for all mankind. Blessing is an objective action whereby spiritual power reaches into the existing world to renew faith, hope and love. Without this blessing, human life becomes insufferable. True marriage is the very kernel of human unity and any society that even approximates to the spiritual pattern of humankind, needs some, even if only very few, such unions.

The union of man and woman comes about to fulfill a common destiny. The two are one in the secret place, even though they may be separate in time and space. When this place opens in love towards all, all who are surrendered to love, may enter. It is the communion of saints, an inner society, which brings into the presence of mankind the influence of what, in time, is the far distant future of mankind when all will be in communion.

There is a union even beyond this. In the Sufi terminology we have been using it is called Beit-ul-Ma'mour, or the Abode of the Lord. In this union, God enters the soul. This is the same as saying that the supernatural reality beyond the limits of the solar system is immediately present in the Sacred Marriage. Whereas the first abode Beit-ul-Muharem, is a union on the level of conscious energy, and the second the Beit-ul-Mukades is a union on the level of the creative energy, the third union is on the level of the energy of love. The supernatural reality of the third cosmic or reconciling force can manifest directly. It makes possible a redemptive action, unconstrained by the limitations of space, time, and number. God enters into the marriage as the child and the source of their union. In the Beit-ul-Ma'mour the man and the woman have lost the illusion of their separate existence; they have even lost entirely the illusion of existing at all."

So the Sufi manosphere was pretty wild! That's their ideal of male/female relationships. They must have had an interesting dating scene... Anyways, Bennett goes pretty far out there into the aether, and I'm not sure if it's all that useful in terms of daily life interactions.

What I am getting from all this is that men and women are made, not born. They are different influences in this self-making process, be it the manosphere or feminism or whatever. They can choose to be made for each other, ie., marriage. Their marriage can be for them, yes, but the highest ideal is that the relationship is a way of giving back to All and Everything. So as not to get lost in the aether, this giving back is a practical, everyday work on the self in service to the the wellbeing of the significant other in all of their complexities. This work is what grounds the current from above.
 
My advice to any young (or old) single guy reading this is whilst okay to theorise how things should be, nothing beats just getting your hands dirty with some real life experience. Certainly one thing you'll learn very quickly is the world doesn't fit too nicely into theories and you'll have to learn how to mostly figure things out by yourself. Just be a decent guy with good character, and not some crazy person and you know, let the chips fall where they may. Rejection is probably your best friend in the dating world so embrace it. Life's messy most of the time and doesn't fit too well into the theories people come up with to try and figure it out.

On the gym and physical fitness, my personal view is that you need to do something physical regularly to maintain some level of health. Whether that's in a gym or somewhere else, just do something physical and try and maintain a decent physical condition - look at it this way, it won't do you anything bad but the opposite will most likely result in some undesirable outcomes. Over the last couple of months I got into a state of being quite sedentary and I didn't feel too good with an ever increasing level of guilt and shame that I decided to pay for a PT to get back into doing something and just bypass my will which was becoming rather lazy and good at making excuses - over the last couple of weeks when I've been having some guided PT sessions I've felt really good. Nothing beats getting up at 5am to go workout before the day begins and I'll be sticking with it for the foreseeable future.

Good poem for the guys sat on the fence of life hesitating to jump in and try something

Thank you Scottreader. A down-to-earth opinion in this gender nonsense. Overthinking kills the joy.
 
One of the most glaring issues, that seems to relate to this problem is Darwinism is a significant if not predominant influence, which makes our relationships and drives / motivations out to be purely based on materialism/ biology. And that it is the competitive, dog eat dog world that creates success or failure. In this there really isn't much room for the experience and development of love and how that is a driving force for communication and mutual understanding, of sharing and working on vulnerabilities, of sharing and working on misconceptions, and various programs we develop throughout life.

This perhaps speaks to a more general issue: many of us here, I suppose, kind of understand that there are many different angles, many different ways to approach truth and get a better understanding of reality. But we also know that we cannot get hung up on one specific angle forever. This can suck us in and ultimately let us fall. (I wrote about this years ago on another thread.)

The pattern seems to be that people find a new angle, stumble upon new information, and they go "woooww! This is so important! I will look at everything from that lens now!!" And therein lies the problem.

It happened to original feminism - like we want to shake up the somewhat too rigid role models of an era, and then it's like "wooow!! Men are the problem! Look how they started all wars! And those societal problems - it's all about socially constructed maleness!" And so on.

It happened with the race issue - "wooww, people have always told me it's all because racism, but look at those studies! These groups really are more stupid! Now my world finally makes sense!"

It happened with the manosphere - "woooww!! We have always been told there are no differences between men and women, but now I know it's all biological!! I can hack them, and feel superior, and nature made it so they have to serve me!"

And with so many other issues. The important thing is to step back from these issues at some point, and remember that they are only ever just one aspect among so many other things.

There is no harm in exploring different angles, including evolutionary psychology etc., the problem comes when people get hung up on an angle. You must learn to take a step back, forget about your pet theory for a moment, and look through a different lens.

Where there is evolutionary psychology, there is also soul development, love, and conscious work on advancement, not to mention reincarnation and destiny. Where there are differences between the sexes, there are also differences between soul groups. Etc.

It is true that young men are suffering, and that our society has not been good for them for a long time. (Women are suffering because of that, too, obviously.) This creates an interesting situation with a lot of pent-up male energy. This can be a blessing, if that energy is channelled into creativity, true heroism, rebuilding society, etc. But such pent-up energy can, as history shows, easily lead to destruction and mayhem wrought by psycho gangs as well. It seems to me some of the manosphere gurus are more in the "wannabe psycho gang leader" category.
 
What basic truths are you talking about? So far, I haven't seen anything worthwhile that isn't available from other sources. Why this philosophy in particular has become so popular is another issue.
I think it just drives the point home to men that they need to work on themselves and make themselves into a better man before women could find them attractive.
I don't know, some Hollywood movies do a pretty good job. And even Disney, believe it or not. A lot closer to the truth than this stuff anyway. Though they do tend to focus much of the time on what the man's role is, and not so much the woman. Maybe that's because men need more explicit advice?
What I meant is how Hollywood presents this idealized version of romance that, when taken at face value does a disservice to both sexes.
Aeneas wasn't being a progressive liberal. He was being a conservative gentleman. His reading of the situation and the execution of his defense was not perfect, but he did read that something pathological was afoot and reacted. I appreciated the gesture even if it wasn't needed in this case.
You are your own example there
I didn't think he was being that. I merely saw it as a good opportunity to present a certain idea. It was probably misplaced on my part.

Sorry if it came across that way. Not that Aeneas was actually being sexist. It was more tounge in cheek, sort of like Joe said it, as well.
Just wanted to point out how these ideologies always end up in the opposite extreme.
Seriously. Well, to be fair, some women are just mellow and deferential by nature without it being caused by any pathology or deficiency on her part. But I'm pretty sure that that is rare.
For me, submissive means that a person has no thoughts of their own, or at least never presents them and just goes along with whatever others impose on them.
I could never be with a woman like that, but that's what these manospheriods seem to want in a woman, more than anything else. Someone that they can boss around and never get called out on their bull.

My wife is very outspoken and certainly no pushover but at the same time she doesn't want to make the big decisions herself. She'll give her opinion but defer to me. She said so herself, that she couldn't be with a man who doesn't take charge and constantly asks her to decide on important things.
 
it is time to rethink if the woman next to you is the man you want in your life and vice versa for the woman.
Haha
Ok I know I am treading on thin ice in thinking I know where Jimmy is coming from (and if I do, my goodness!) but I think there is a point here. We all have a masculine and feminine aspect that plays into this mess and further muddies the waters.
 
Ok I know I am treading on thin ice in thinking I know where Jimmy is coming from (and if I do, my goodness!) but I think there is a point here. We all have a masculine and feminine aspect that plays into this mess and further muddies the waters.
Of course, that's the irony, it's like in cowboy movies where a toothless outlaw comes into a bar with his muscular body and knocks on the door and everyone looks at him in silence while he takes his revolver, adjusts his pants and shouts AAh! bartender, bring me a glass of milk! and then he pulls out a flowers from his pocket and gives it to a girl.
 
Exactly the bolded part. I would also say: Decide what specific kind of man you want to be and what specific kind of woman you want to attract. Focus on learning about those two types of characters and make efforts to become the former.
I think that is good advice. Yesterday I thought of this subject in terms of A, B and C influences. If the other person is predominantly or fully run by A influences and thus preoccupied with the external world, is such a person what one would like as a partner, just because they can talk glibly, have a sixpack, dresses faultlessly, has money or the other way round, if the women, look like an hourglass, plays simple minded, praises the sixpack etc.? If one is trying to escape the natural law, then such a choice for partner might not be ideal and also not for the other person involved.

Relationships seem one of natures way of getting us to work on ourselves and to learn our 'karmic and simple understandings'. It is also where deeply held programs can surface.
Very true. It is certainly one way which we are familiar with in our societal setup and one where a mirroring process can happen on a frequent basis. Another way is within a close network like this forum if one is dedicated to growing and maturing as a person. The forum has the advantage of there being more eyes to give input and feedback, but the drawback that it is easier to hide behind the screen. With a partner that can be more difficult as that person sees you in all situations, both in your glory but also in your misery.

That is where love comes into it as Paul reminded us about in 1 Corinthian 13.
Rephrasing it to fit this thread: "If you have a sixpack, look and talk glibly, have money, the greatest haircut or an hourglass figure, the best wrinkle free face botox injections can make, but if do not have love, you have nothing. (free interpretation from an unknown letter ascribed to be from Paul...I think).
I didn't think he was being that. I merely saw it as a good opportunity to present a certain idea. It was probably misplaced on my part.

Sorry if it came across that way.
There was no misunderstanding as I took it that you were presenting an idea.
 
My 2¢

The ideal way to act towards any human being : Be yourself and treat them with respect. No "Acting" is required.
I take the point of not acting, which is a good start as it only adds pretense and you will only fool the other and yourself in the end.

The problem with "just be yourself" is as Joe said:
I never liked the "just be yourself" advice, because my first thought was always "what if I'm an asshole"? Try to be a really good asshole perhaps? No one ever qualifies that advice by saying: 'By "be yourself", I mean figure out your true nature under all that crap and make it manifest'.
 
I take the point of not acting, which is a good start as it only adds pretense and you will only fool the other and yourself in the end.

The problem with "just be yourself" is as Joe said:

In the context of the world being a classroom, and other people being mirrors, giving us constant feedback so we can (choose to or not) work on ourselves, acting is an intentional deception, preventing the opportunity to work on your true self. That just allows us to work on the character we are acting as.

What if I'm an asshole ? If I'm not aware that I am, I would hope someone would tell me so I can change and not be an asshole, unless I want to be one, or I don't want to believe them that I am - but that's choosing to work on yourself or not I guess. I think acting in a relationship to be blocking even this chance to improve yourself, and be more excellent to others.
 
In the context of the world being a classroom, and other people being mirrors, giving us constant feedback so we can (choose to or not) work on ourselves, acting is an intentional deception, preventing the opportunity to work on your true self. That just allows us to work on the character we are acting as.

What if I'm an asshole ? If I'm not aware that I am, I would hope someone would tell me so I can change and not be an asshole, unless I want to be one, or I don't want to believe them that I am - but that's choosing to work on yourself or not I guess. I think acting in a relationship to be blocking even this chance to improve yourself, and be more excellent to others.
Well there are other traits that can get in the way like for me it was being very very introverted. It would have been nice if I could have hid that trait and I sort of eventually did. Before 30 my total career asking out a woman on a "date" consisted of sending an e-mail to someone at work asking to eat lunch with her at work and I did get to do that. I eventually figured out how to sound outgoing online and I dated three women I met online, the 3rd being my wife. It was very rocky when it became in-person. My introversion doomed the first two relationships and even with my wife, a little less introversion would have been nice. But faking it online in order to get some in-person awkward experience sort of worked even if online me will always roll my eyeballs at in-person me.
 

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