Is There an Ideal Way of Acting and Being in Male-Female Relationships?

[Happy Poo]

Bit of change subject here, hope you guys don't mind..
The title of this thread really got me thinking.. Have been thinking about relationships, about what would be the ideal kind a lot recently and for me, and an ideal partner for me would be someone who is genuinely interested in the work here.. I mean how can we really understand each other unless they understand the C's and these kind of subjects?

And was thinking, how rare it really is to meet someone who is sincerely dedicated to the work here.

How in reality just how difficult it is to meet and just even chat to another human being that understands this!

I've not met anyone who is really fascinated with these esoteric subjects in everyday life. . (Apart from one guy i worked with once and he was married). And those who show some interest is fleeting at best. Most people I've met in day to day life seam to be "exoteric" or more normal for want of better word.

So was thinking, if it's so rare it to meet someone in actual life that is really into this stuff, (and doesn't just say they are) , then just what are the chances of meeting an ideal partner in terms of the work, being able to understand, able to truly understand and talk about the subjects here?

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that it's very unlikely. And if it doesn't happen, then he ho.. It could be worse lol. I'd rather be single that with someone who doesn't really show a real interest for these subjects, who doesn't care about it.

And when this is the case, found this to be really difficult in past relationships, and a big obstacle with regards to wether we could really relate to each other.. If that makes sense my grammar isn't great.

Maybe others here have met more folks in person who are oriented towards esoteric subjects, but I've found that this is really rare for sure. Can be pretty lonely, even exasperating at times.

Sorry meant to say, I'd rather be single "than" with someone who doesn't understand the work. Apologies for bad grammar again
..

 

[Turgon]

Would you accept the staggering success of 'Fifty shades of gray' as some sort of evidence? Enough evidence perhaps to make a generalization?

Interesting you'd bring that up as an example. Here's Peterson's psychoanalytical take on why 50 Shades was the highest selling novel of all time w/regards to women.

This is a great example of the way a statement that is generally true can be quibbled over by saying that, in this case, "men aren't exempt from this either". It's like, yeah, I think everyone knows men can be emotional too, so what's the point of even mentioning it. It's beside the point being made, which is true, which is that women are more prone to "bursts of emotionality" than men. The problem seems to be that people immediately think that someone (in this case women) are being "harshly judged" when that is not the case. At least, that's NOT the case here where we're expressly trying to AVOID divisive commentary and argumentation in favor of a better understanding of the world, people and ourselves.

That's just a comment Turgon, on that particular point, and does not detract from the majority of your post which I think was spot on.

All good! It was a pretty lame comment anyways for the reasons you pointed out and because, well, I was being too PC and 'careful' in that in a lot of ways, I've learned that to point out to a woman that she's being emotional or irrational is like an invitation for her to be even more so. It's almost a running joke around men that you never tell a woman to calm down when she's emotional otherwise you're basically asking for trouble.

But more often than not, men need to provide stability by not opening up - by simply ignoring their emotional fluctuations and pretending they don't exist. Like, when you are feeling crappy, you don't talk about it - because what good does it do to complain about your feelings? Especially for the women in your life, who have to struggle more with those things? That wouldn't be fair to them.

In certain contexts it's good to open up but there are times when your wife/spouse simply isn't the best person to do it with. Gurdjieff had said as much: Do not try to be everything to your spouse; accept that there are things that you cannot give him or her but which others can.

 

[Scottie]

And when Corvus’ post read like he’d lifted it from any manosphere article on the web, it struck me as not being info learned from experience - i.e.,

That's part of the problem. And I don't mean that it's Corvus' problem. It's nearly impossible to discuss this stuff without 'triggering' many people. But then, I guess that shouldn't be surprising because look what's happening in Western society...

they would become, for women (and anyone else who's interested), the living embodiment of the composite male protagonist character in the romance novels so many have been reading for several years now.

Yeah, and:
1. Many of those men in those novels (who turned out pretty well despite being 'rakes' or even borderline 'evil') would be torn to shreds here
2. The goal is not to become that 'living embodiment' for ALL women or ALL men, but to attempt to become that for only ONE - even if we never actually get there

Obviously, not everyone will 'find someone', and probably not everyone needs to - for whatever reasons. The self-work still needs doing!

So, you can think 4d or 6d or Polar Opposites or whatever you want... But in the end, we are all either men or women stuck in a 3d body here in little old physical 3rd density. That means right now, we fit here, and we better get busy learning the lessons of 3d - not some higher reality. Simple and karmic understandings...

Yeah, real "simple"... Thanks, C's!

 

[Beau]

It's almost a running joke around men that you never tell a woman to calm down when she's emotional otherwise you're basically asking for trouble.

I think that's good advice! Instead of telling your girlfriend or wife to calm down, you should show to her that you can be relied on to be the calming force surrounding the swirl of emotions that women are often dealing with by not reacting and by being able to logically deal with the situation. If you say "hey calm down", that could be seen as you being bothered by emotions instead of being able to stoically navigate the troubled waters. If you can't deal with some turbulent emotions from time to time, how are you going to be able to deal with something that could actually be important to survival?

 

[Ryan]

So he "just came" from a successful date (whatever that means) and he had two tomorrow, one of which he cancelled, so he has one tomorrow. So he went on a date with a girl, it was successful, although he clearly isn't that enthused about this particular girl since he is going on another date tomorrow with another girl. Please someone tell me how this is, on the face of it, a problem or bad or a mistake?

Why call a date "successful" if you're happy to immediately go on a date with someone else? To me, a successful date means that both people enjoyed the experience and would like to see each other again. So why not cancel the dates with the other people rather than go into a situation where you might be wasting someone else's time?

His point, if you read his second post, was that the 'dark triad' - machiavellianism, sub-clinical narcissism, and sub-clinical psychopathy - when manifested by men in the context of attracting women are VERY successful in doing so. Men with those traits are masters at flattery and making a person feel like they're special, they're exciting, spontaneous, fearless, confident. His point was that these traits SHOULD be manifested by men who have a 'heart and soul' rather than my callous psychos who just lure women in and then hurt them.

Ok, I re-read Corvus' posts rather than the previous skimming. I see what you mean.

That was the whole point of what he was saying, and it is, coincidentally, precisely the same thing that Laura said (more than once) many years ago when we first came across Sandra Brown's book. In fact, maybe you (and everyone else here) should watch the video Laura posted yesterday in the 'Women who love psychopaths' topic, because that guy pretty much says the same things Corvus said, although much expanded, and from a hard science and statistical data pov.

I did watch that video. And it does present the same kinds of findings that Corvus was referring to, only, shall we say, in a way less likely to offend people who've made a career out of helping traumatised women?

Really Ryan? "Because she was asking for it"? Come on man.

Okay, fair call. I apologise for that, @Corvus; that wasn't what you were saying.

Sandra Brown's response to Corvus [..] was pretty lamentable IMO. Then again, as I said in a previous post today, this specific topic isn't really of interest to women, so I also understand why she got outta Dodge.

Well, she mentioned earlier she had other things to attend to, so she might have been 'halfway out the door' already.

 

[BHelmet]

1. The non sequitur Jimmy-isms are hilarious comic relief.

2. Male-female Relationships take time to evolve; to suss out; to learn; and to unlearn all the wrong-headed baloney we have “learned” and assumed to be true. It takes a long time and effort to actually stand in the presence of another soul and see them for who they are; to see how they tick apart from all our projections and assumptions. Add to this mix that a big part involves learning our own mechanisms and “reading errors” before a real relationship is possible. After 36 years I know my wife better than ever but Good God, some things took 3 decades to finally “get”. And of course, it never ends. So, I think the key is, who are you willing to roll the dice with? One or two dates is a very limited sample to really see who you might be getting involved with.

3. Relationships inevitably involve a kind of Murphy’s Laws scenario. I.e. Assume your assumptions are going to be wrong. You are going to have to confront exactly what you are trying to avoid if you are going to grow. At some point the person you love is going to show up as intolerable, and push the hell out of your buttons. (So, looking for the perfect person is one of God’s little jokes in life) Relationships are also a chance to witness and own the STS driving force behind our own facades and illusions.

Such a fertile ground for the work.

 

[Joe]

Maybe others here have met more folks in person who are oriented towards esoteric subjects, but I've found that this is really rare for sure. Can be pretty lonely, even exasperating at times.

I think there are quite a few members who are in a long term relationship or married to someone who isn't really interested in what we do, but somehow they work it out. Maybe they can chime in with their examples if it's not too personal.

 

[Joe]

It's almost a running joke around men that you never tell a woman to calm down when she's emotional otherwise you're basically asking for trouble.

Yeah, I've heard that one too, but it made me think about the fact that telling anyone to "calm down" when they're worked up about something is pretty much a bad idea. I've known plenty of men who didn't react very well to it.

 

[Joe]

Why call a date "successful" if you're happy to immediately go on a date with someone else? To me, a successful date means that both people enjoyed the experience and would like to see each other again. So why not cancel the dates with the other people rather than go into a situation where you might be wasting someone else's time?

What about enjoyed the experience but there was no "spark", so a decision was made by one or the other to no go any further?

And it does present the same kinds of findings that Corvus was referring to, only, shall we say, in a way less likely to offend people who've made a career out of helping traumatised women?

People who have made a career in post modern Diversity Equity and Inclusion-dominated American academia, are easily offended it seems.

 

[T.C.]

How did you determine from what he wrote that that is what was likely or possibly going on with him?

Good question. Can I answer it as what I thought I was originally perceiving, or will any explanation I give be a post hoc attempt at being ‘right’?

I tend to think that negatively twisted ideas or ideologies need fertile soil to grow in. I interpreted Corvus’ writings as someone who had a psychological/emotional weak spot that left him vulnerable to a pathological mind-virus.

I was writing from experience, since this kind of material appealed to me when I was going through a period of depression, coupled with unrequited love. If I take a cursory look back through the first couple of posts in the thread, I see Corvus writes, “Nowadays, a man must work 50 times harder to get a woman who is 20 times worse.” Firstly, no one could write that from literal, practical personal experience, and secondly, that’s a good example of one of these mind-viruses I’m talking about that needs fertile ground to take root in: you can’t get what you want no matter how hard you try, and if you do get it, the juice is hardly worth the squeeze.

I feel it would be unfair for me to go back through all his posts and try to cherry-pick things that I can use to try to confirm my ideas. On balance, I think that having not just dipped my toe in the manosphere ideas, just jumped in up to my knees, I thought that IF Corvus was in a similar place I was when I tried the ideas on, that I might be able to save him some time and energy by sharing what I managed to distil from it all.

So, in a nutshell? Black and white, parroted ideas that have been shown to be part of the program of divide and conquer of the sexes seem to me to grow the strongest roots in those who have psychological and emotional flaws or weaknesses. I guess my reasoning that this may apply to Corvus was a “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” methodology.

 

[mariowil7]

Yeah, the hormonal cycle alone makes it true that women are more emotional and emotionally "fluid". There is no point saying that "men can be emotional too!" in this biological context.

It is also true that we have been subjected to so many bad ideas like that "men should open up emotionally" that we can't see the forest for the trees. I mean, yes, if emotions ruin your life and behavior, you need to solve that problem, and part of it might be "opening up", such as going to therapy if you have PTSD. Or if there's an issue that needs to be addressed because it hampers your life and relationship, you need to talk about it with your spouse. But more often than not, men need to provide stability by not opening up - by simply ignoring their emotional fluctuations and pretending they don't exist. Like, when you are feeling crappy, you don't talk about it - because what good does it do to complain about your feelings? Especially for the women in your life, who have to struggle more with those things? That wouldn't be fair to them.

Generally I think there is a lot of truth in the Red Pill space; the problem however is that there are subtleties that can only be learned by experience and trust in common sense, and getting these subtleties wrong can have disastrous consequences. And it is very easy to get them wrong when your only source is the manosphere. This can lead young men to infer that they should be treating women like crap, when in fact such information should encourage them to treat them better. I have seen guys online advocating for men to celebrate their midlife crisis, buy a sports car, go on a party trip and sleep with teens, things like that. You know, to show it to them, to live out your manliness, blabla. It's this stupid idea of a zero-sum game between the sexes. Given the craziness of feminism and the increasing feminization of everything, it's easy for young men to get drawn into this sort of thinking, but it's no good for anybody.

Great @luc and @Joe.. You both really nailed it... Thank you both for your really balanced approach to the matter in discussion.

The only think that I can say in all this thread is that: Nature is Sexist. (digest it slowly and calmly please...)

 

[Jimmy Ssaz]

1. The non sequitur Jimmy-isms are hilarious comic relief.

2. Male-female Relationships take time to evolve; to suss out; to learn; and to unlearn all the wrong-headed baloney we have “learned” and assumed to be true. It takes a long time and effort to actually stand in the presence of another soul and see them for who they are; to see how they tick apart from all our projections and assumptions. Add to this mix that a big part involves learning our own mechanisms and “reading errors” before a real relationship is possible. After 36 years I know my wife better than ever but Good God, some things took 3 decades to finally “get”. And of course, it never ends. So, I think the key is, who are you willing to roll the dice with? One or two dates is a very limited sample to really see who you might be getting involved with.

3. Relationships inevitably involve a kind of Murphy’s Laws scenario. I.e. Assume your assumptions are going to be wrong. You are going to have to confront exactly what you are trying to avoid if you are going to grow. At some point the person you love is going to show up as intolerable, and push the hell out of your buttons. (So, looking for the perfect person is one of God’s little jokes in life) Relationships are also a chance to witness and own the STS driving force behind our own facades and illusions.

Such a fertile ground for the work.

I work very hard with me if you laugh at me too that speaks about yourself.
Maybe I am not the "new Gurdjieff" type as the forum likes, or Tristan, Perceval or King Arthur.
Although Perceval was also underestimated.
Hypothetically if I really were an improved version of the Ultimate Life Warrior I would have the Grail with me and anyone no matter if they are the entire illuminati world consortium, negative hyperdimensional beings or whoever (the entire elite would slice them up like delicious cake and glub bite! Plus who knows if I have certain dormant powers and remain in a state of stillness and peace..spoiler alert! slice of bread SAS crakss! yum yum yum yum.
I have a heart guys..don't judge me or many here consider themselves the "new Fullcanelis" ?

 

[Revolucionar]

Bit of change subject here, hope you guys don't mind..
The title of this thread really got me thinking.. Have been thinking about relationships, about what would be the ideal kind a lot recently and for me, and an ideal partner for me would be someone who is genuinely interested in the work here.. I mean how can we really understand each other unless they understand the C's and these kind of subjects?

And was thinking, how rare it really is to meet someone who is sincerely dedicated to the work here.

How in reality just how difficult it is to meet and just even chat to another human being that understands this!

I've not met anyone who is really fascinated with these esoteric subjects in everyday life. . (Apart from one guy i worked with once and he was married). And those who show some interest is fleeting at best. Most people I've met in day to day life seam to be "exoteric" or more normal for want of better word.

So was thinking, if it's so rare it to meet someone in actual life that is really into this stuff, (and doesn't just say they are) , then just what are the chances of meeting an ideal partner in terms of the work, being able to understand, able to truly understand and talk about the subjects here?

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that it's very unlikely. And if it doesn't happen, then he ho.. It could be worse lol. I'd rather be single that with someone who doesn't really show a real interest for these subjects, who doesn't care about it.

And when this is the case, found this to be really difficult in past relationships, and a big obstacle with regards to wether we could really relate to each other.. If that makes sense my grammar isn't great.

Maybe others here have met more folks in person who are oriented towards esoteric subjects, but I've found that this is really rare for sure. Can be pretty lonely, even exasperating at times.

My advice is not to worry about it.
If you think it through, someone who's into esoterica is just as likely to be an ashole as anyone else.
You would have to find someone who's really into the same type of esoterica as you are and someone who is both serious about the work and is applying it in their life.
Not saying it's not possible, but you can't be looking for that because it's like a needle in a haystack.
Even if you found them, it doesn't mean they would be the right person for you with your current state of development.

My experience with my wife is that she's turned out to be exactly the perfect person for me in terms of the work and everything that's really important in life. There's problems and conflict of course, but all of that is par for the course.
What you need is someone who shares your core values, not your interests.
Someone you can talk to on an equal intellectual level, even if it's not about your favorite topics. You need someone to contend with, someone who will not let you coast through life and your relationship because they don't have the intellectual means to call you out on your bullshit.
I've had a couple girlfriends before who were very much into esoterica and I know even more women who I've had no romantic involvement with and I can tell you that none of these women would be good for me even if we might agree on a good number of core ideas about the world.
My wife doesn't even believe in an afterlife it's just too difficult for her to imagine that it's real even after I exposed her to a lot of the afterlife materials and after many (very intellectually satisfying) discussions on the matter.
Yet, she is the absolute best person I know in terms of her morality and simply correct functioning. She's far from perfect and so am I and we help each other become better people even without taking any sort of esoteric ideas into the equation.
As has been said already, we need to deal with simple karmic understandings and esoteric endeavour can often be just an excuse not to work on the simple stuff.
Become a good Obyvatel, in Gurdjieff's terminology, and find someone who you deem a worthy companion on that quest.
Forget about lofty ideas and focus on the immediate things down here on earth.
That should be everyone's primary objective. Esoteric development can only come after a certain level of attainment in the simple karmic understating department.
And simple karmic understanding can be informed by the esoteric, more and more as we come along the way, but the esoteric should not be seen as a goal in and of itelf.

My two cents. Hope it helps.

 

[Revolucionar]

I work very hard with me if you laugh at me too that speaks about yourself.
Maybe I am not the "new Gurdjieff" type as the forum likes, or Tristan, Perceval or King Arthur.
Although Perceval was also underestimated.
Hypothetically if I really were an improved version of the Ultimate Life Warrior I would have the Grail with me and anyone no matter if they are the entire illuminati world consortium, negative hyperdimensional beings or whoever (the entire elite would slice them up like delicious cake and glub bite! Plus who knows if I have certain dormant powers and remain in a state of stillness and peace..spoiler alert! slice of bread SAS crakss! yum yum yum yum.
I have a heart guys..don't judge me or many here consider themselves the "new Fullcanelis" ?

Jimmy, you seem like a nice guy and you have your ideas about the world, which is great but you have to take a step back, come back to earth and realize that you are mostly just inserting noise into the conversation.
To be honest, I read a few sentences and then just skip your posts as they're mostly rambling, off topic, and largely incoherent.

No one is asking you to be the next Fulcanelli, in fact, just the opposite. Be clear and precise. Take time to formulate your thoughts in a way that people can easily understand what you're meaning to convey.

I sense that you are under 23 years of age.
There's timebto grow up, but at the same time, indulging yourself by writing whatever comes to mind is not going to help you in that regard. Try to take feedback on board. Feedback you receive here will usually be on point and you reject it at your own peril because other people generally see what we can't see in ourselves.
Also, people around here tend to know their stuff so don't just keep doing what you're doing disregarding everyone's advice and observations of your goal really is to advance yourself in knowledge and being.

Some concrete advice?
Stop using metaphor and fanciful narratives to convey your thoughts. Be succint, clear, unambiguous and to the point. You'll have a much more rewarding experience both here and in life.
Write poetry instead to satisfy that need. You'd probably be good at it.

 

[BHelmet]

I work very hard with me if you laugh at me too that speaks about yourself.
Maybe I am not the "new Gurdjieff" type as the forum likes, or Tristan, Perceval or King Arthur.
Although Perceval was also underestimated.
Hypothetically if I really were an improved version of the Ultimate Life Warrior I would have the Grail with me and anyone no matter if they are the entire illuminati world consortium, negative hyperdimensional beings or whoever (the entire elite would slice them up like delicious cake and glub bite! Plus who knows if I have certain dormant powers and remain in a state of stillness and peace..spoiler alert! slice of bread SAS crakss! yum yum yum yum.
I have a heart guys..don't judge me or many here consider themselves the "new Fullcanelis" ?

Take it easy Jimmy. I am just laughing. We all have to be able to laugh at ourselves. I can laugh at me and even make fun of myself. I realize I am not perfect and although I try very hard, even then it does not always work out. All non sequitur means is basically: Out of left field. Like, where the heck did that come from?!? (and how does it relate?) It is not meant to be a personal attack although I can understand how you could take it that way. Take a deep breath and exhale.