Is There an Ideal Way of Acting and Being in Male-Female Relationships?

[KTC]

I think there are quite a few members who are in a long term relationship or married to someone who isn't really interested in what we do, but somehow they work it out. Maybe they can chime in with their examples if it's not too personal.

I'm happily married for 17 years to someone who is not involved in the work and we have great love and respect for each other. The secret is IMO that neither of us (in my marriage) has ever felt dependant on the other. We spend a lot of time together since we live pretty remote on property and don't have a friend circle yet we are also very independent and always have been.

We also weren't looking for each other, it was a shot gun wedding so that we could both travel and live in each others countries and be adventure bound. Serendipitously we fell in love along the way so I guess the idea that things come to you when you're not looking for them is true for us.

From where I stand one issue lies in people believing that to be married means that you become one person with all the same activities and interests but in my experience that doesn't need to be the case, nor is it necessarily healthy.

We share very solid beliefs and views on the topics that matter to us including health care, lifestyle, mindset, being creative and always looking for ways to learn and grow but out interests are quite different.

I read a lot and my husband has never really picked up a book. He will spend hours in the garden, building something useful while I am happy with my head in a book, cooking, walking the beach, listening to podcasts. I meditate, he says that fishing is meditation. We both love being active, he runs and I swim. We both love pushing ourselves mentally, I enjoy studying, he prefers working with his hands.

The commonality is that we are both constantly growing and that is the thing that has probably kept us happily together. I dare say if one of us kept growing and expanding and evolving but the other one stayed fixed then we would grow apart but the fact that we are both about self development albeit in different ways we are on a similar trajectory.

By the time we had met we had both spent a lot of time on our own travelling and experiencing life in different countries and I think that those experiences gave us both self confidence in a way that when we came together we have always enjoyed each others company but never needed each other.

I think that stems from us both growing up in families that ended with ugly break ups and the women in particular being very needy and not self sufficient. Both of our mums were completely broken and hopeless when our fathers left and we can both see how hard it was for both parties.

For years I was repelled by my mother for her weakness of relying so much on my father and I could understand how tiring it was for my father. I would never put that burden on to someone else, nor would I stick around if I felt like someone was reliant on me for their own happiness.

We have a joke that he is the braun and I am the brains and it works well for us. Life is tough without being in a crap relationship. I have no idea why people keep suffering just for the sake of being with someone but we all know people who are.

 

[Alejo]

We are the exception, right? So why not in this case? Why can members not take a step back and assess the validity or otherwise of what he was saying from that detached perspective? Why do some of you seem to react as if it were a personal judgement?

I think part of it is because we all tend to grab value and worth from others (and I don't think it can be otherwise), specially the opposite sex, and specially if it is of a romantic or sexual nature. So, someone stating that there are certain rules that apply and that perhaps we may have been playing it wrong all along... well, that stings, for single people.. and even for people in long term relationships.

it's a risk factor that perhaps, we may have not considered and that's at the very least uncomfortable. Though I realize there may be more involved.

Which is why I think it's a good idea to have a discussion about this, because the term "simp", for instance, has such a nasty connotation, that men will almost immediately react against it "I am not a simp!! you're the simp!", like a gag reaction. Maybe similarly to the way the term "slut" has the same nasty connotation in women.

And I think there's a lot more to that than the simple modern condemnation, specially if you think about it within the context of everything that has been shared thus far. Because a simp would essentially be a man who fails to be a man, based on what that individual understands a man to be.. and this knowledge might be even older than the individual's lifetime, maybe even genetic memory might be involved. And the same thing goes for "slut", is essentially a woman doing a poor job at the job of a woman.. that is being selective in partners and becoming a low hanging fruit, if you will.

But maybe you are a simp, or have been.. I know I have, oh brother have I ever. But I believe that the way out of it is not to pretend you're not, or convince yourself that you're not, but really dig past it... use it as a working term for the time being, assume it as a reality or a working hypothesis, and then test it, with your memory and with your life and see if you like it.. if you don't then now you have a chance to change it.

Stop comparing yourself against other people, who are better emotionally regulated, or have a partner and seem happy.. and face yourself. Really, what can be more manly than that, emotionally stable and educating. Instead of freaking out at a possibility, you face it and test it and fix it if you choose to.

But that approach will give you the chance to really work at the foundation of your behavior, and that's what I meant above by attractiveness being something that emanates from within, and not simply a costume you put on. Because if you are a simp, then a part of you enjoys being in that place and behaving in the way you do, because you get something out of it, even if it hurts in the end.

Which brings me to something Scottie said, about Crowder, which is perhaps another misconception I see, really being a man, a masculine man, has nothing to do with being overtly and loudly aggressive, because the loudest man in the room, is the weakest man in the room. Having the capacity to be loud and aggressive is masculine indeed, but being that by default, sounds more like a teenager... fun, but a teenager nonetheless.

If you really feel the need to belittle weaker people in order to build up your self image, then you're no better than an immature child, even if you use big boy words.

 

[BHelmet]

There are different ways of doing “the work”. I think it is not a rigidly and narrowly defined concept. A person lives their life and if they become self aware and are in a positive relationship with the creative force where they are striving to learn and evolve, then different contexts can be used. IOW, there are different sets of terminology and disciplines that can…work. So, two people might seem to be on differing paths but when they compare notes they may discover they have been passing many of the same trees and are on a parallel track.

The Metaphors are just for Jimmy! LOL.

 

[Joe]

Really, what can be more manly than that, emotionally stable and educating. Instead of freaking out at a possibility, you face it and test it and fix it if you choose to.

And that's more or less the essence of it and what we're aiming it. It requires hard work and is gonna involve trial and error and failure and trying again. I'm reminded of a session from Dec. 29th 2018 that I think underlines why we're sort of clumsily trying to figure this out:

Q; Is the promotion in Western society of a hostile attitude towards traditional masculine qualities part of a broader nefarious plan?

A: Yes

Q: (Joe) Is part of that to try and make a generation of weak men?

A: Yes

Q: (Joe) Is that with a view to some kind of post 4D transition scenario or something like that, or is it more of a takeover on 3D?

A: More a reflection of desired relationship between 4D STS and humanity.

Q: (L) So in other words, they want to get into doing anal probes. (laughter)

A: Not far off! Dominance over the normal male.

 

[987baz]

A lot of what we are discussing here reminds of this thread from 2018 for those interested.
The "Rational Male and Female"? - Biology and Programs in Relationships

At the time it was some what of a revelation for me, discovering how men and woman think very differently, and for a variety of reasons, this is natural and even necessary, after all we are the yin and yang, we're meant to fit together, the two opposites that make a whole!?

It's a fascinating subject, and one well worth exploring IMO, to better understand the opposite sex and their motivations via biology and psychology has certainly helped me understand my own failures. And as Joe said above, there's lots of trial and error, we all have our own individual makeup, some learned some intrinsic. The key as always is knowing, or at least striving to know, both your own tendencies and those of the opposite sex and acting accordingly.

 

[Nević Nenad]

I think there are quite a few members who are in a long term relationship or married to someone who isn't really interested in what we do, but somehow they work it out. Maybe they can chime in with their examples if it's not too personal.

Its simple, you have to be respectfull and try to be as little selfish as you can. There is a real person in front of you, and you must never forget that. Any kind of esoterism and "work on self", without understanding that is just fake IMO.

 

[Michal]

this is a safe space and no one can really hurt you, but I better let Corvus speak for him.
@Corvus thanks in advance anyway, your comments helped us at the end of the day.

Hi Armagelipsis-matiasmauran,
I think that in that safe space You also can hurt and feel hurted. Why not?
If one attacks somebody for false reasons do You think it does not hurt?
Projecting things on somebody that are not his/her - I think it might hurt especially when it comes from people that You trust.

How I see it: Corvuses comments did not help directly here. Without Joe's comments (authority) this conversation was not showing signs that somebody was capable to see what he wrote. Joe helped to turn back the conversation and redirect attention of some participants from feelings and probably automatically created assumptions to more based on fact/text conversation.

I had a feeling reading this conversation that some of our Fellows here felt assured of being right by the group: my assumption of such thinking: I am not alone in my feeling because X, Y, Z commented similar way so my feelings gains some credibility although I have not fully understood what somebody said.
There was also at the beginning comment from authority - first Beau, then Sandra chimed in and Laura, which I feel had an effect for some of You to filter this conversation through initial, authorities comments and switch off Your own thinking.

 

[Corvus]

I do not have much time to go through all posts in detail but two boks I would recommend, one is Atomic Atracttion: Psychology of Attraction by Christopher Canwell that is available on kindle and is based on 120 scientific studies and it is most explanation based supported by studies with examples and practical input, but in the end there are some conclusions he comes about dark triad traits and being selfish that may not be best advice and the other I prefer is by Jim Wolfe How to Attract and Keep Her, that is based on 30 years of research about attraction, relationships and marriage and what works and what does not, it has practical input from A to Z, and the basis is about you and in a way working on self as a basis for all, which women to avoid, how to behave that can be applied also with other persons and help you navigate those situations. First part is more about attraction and second is more about long lasting relationships giving respect, affection, humor, etc...

There are some things I would also not agree which is understandable because those authors do not have broader knowledge but it will help you tremendously navigate relationships and have broader knowledge that few man of soul have. I have come across it few years ago but should have taken it more seriously earlier because I have seen it first hand in trial and error and let s be honest man are not thought that anymore because fathers did not teach us that or they also did not know it, so it was enligthening experience and relationships are far from simple, and someone who says it is and that all that is common knowledge knows very little, especially when your partner has some past traumas, insecurities, insecure and anxious attachment, etc...that make it double effort and Wolfe gives advice that kind of women should be avoided if you are not willing to give extra effort.

And I should have been more specific about that I was thinking also about social networks, dating apps, where there are many self centered people, women mostly seeking validation based on their looks and many man being desperate and sexually thirsty, an as said it is prevalent among younger generation and promiscuity, cheating is being promoted, but I do not think it is also only among younger people because I see many people that are older, and it is not that it was not there that behavior before and social media only revealed what was already happening and as one women said women do it also like man just smarter, but also think technology and extreme programming made it worse in last decade which is obvious by the current state of the world but I am aware that social networks are today becoming prevalent and main way to reach and know many people you could not few decades ago, so it is becoming prevalent in the west. In the east where finnacial situation is harder it is much harder because peoples primary concern is money and so people look at that more in their partners.

And Canwell goes more in the research and gives not so nice facts of reality and one example that is good for Sandra thread is that anxiety breads attraction and you can easily link it to psychopathy:

Part of the reason why so many people stay in toxic relationships stems from the fact that toxic relationships are the perfect breeding ground for anxiety. One unusual aspect of stress is that key stress hormones are also responsible for eliciting pleasure in the brain. As a result, women can become addicted “biochemically” to stressful, negative, or life-threatening situations when they become hooked on the chemical release that occurs during stressful situations. This is the primary reason why a woman can be so angry and upset with a man, yet find him so attractive at the same time. Fear and dread are closely linked to human survival. Implementing dread game is a simple way to trick a woman’s brain into thinking her survival is at stake. At a biological level, inducing dread activates a woman’s fear receptors, releasing endorphins, cortisol, adrenaline, and norepinephrine into the woman’s body, causing wave after wave of anxiety and sexual tension. This chemical release now brings the woman’s focus onto the source of her anxiety—you. And just as she was about to forget you, you once more become the focus of her attention.

Research published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology found evidence for heightened levels of sexual attraction in conditions where high levels of anxiety exist.118 In one example, the study found that men and women are likely to throw caution to the wind and indulge in extremely promiscuous behavior during times of war.119 This desire for sexual intercourse arises, not from a state of safety and security, but from a state of fear and anxiety. Because the purpose of humanity is to reproduce, an imminent threat to life triggers extreme levels of sexual desire to ensure the survival of the species.

The idea that attraction flourishes in a swamp of anxiety, selfishness, and uncertainty doesn’t sit well with men who prefer to believe that love and attraction exist in perfect harmony. Love and attraction can exist in harmony, but to have love you must first have attraction. It’s a classic case of the chicken or the egg, which comes first? If your goal is to build attraction with women, it’s crucial to separate the sweet, tender nature of love from the harsh reality of attraction. Love does exist, and it does grow out of attraction, but if you think you must be sweet, caring, and kind to win a woman’s heart, you’re sure to be disappointed.

As we dig deeper into the depths of attraction, it becomes clear that women adore men who score high on dark triad traits.120 These dark triad traits include narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. Men who score high on dark triad traits are usually more confident and selfish than their less self-assured peers. They’re also more likely to be self-interested and attempt to manipulate and exploit other people without any sense of guilt or remorse. Among such men, there’s a dark, apathetic quality that often underpins their relationships with women; a quality that challenges women and keeps them around despite the man’s “asshole” behavior. Research has found evidence to suggest that men who possess dark triad traits are more likely to date more women, have more sex, and be seen as more attractive.121

A study published in the Journal of Evolutionary Psychology suggests that self-absorbed, narcissistic men are more desirable for both one-night stands and short-term relationships.122 If research into attraction is anything to go by, women are more attracted to men who wear flashy, stylish clothes, have humorous verbal expressions, and display open, confident body language—all qualities that narcissists possess in abundance.123It’s for this reason that narcissists strike such a powerful first impression: they are natural born charmers who stand out from the crowd.124

Another trait that makes dark triad men so appealing is their self-absorbed nature. The dark triad man puts himself and his needs first. Taken to an extreme, men who score high on dark triad traits are often highly destructive, not just to themselves but to the people around them. And even though it’s estimated that approximately one percent of the world’s population is psychopathic, the majority of psychopaths are fully functional, productive members of society. Instead of becoming serial killers and mass murderers, as depicted by Hollywood, most “functional psychopaths” live highly productive lives, only resorting to manipulation and deception to get what they want. The benefits of selfishness and narcissism mustn’t be underestimated. The man who’s selfish and self-centered is much more likely to be successful in life. He’s more likely to get promoted, get what he wants, and acquire more skills and knowledge along the way. He’s more likely to start his own business. And he’s more likely to acquire a greater number of assets and resources in the process.

This is part of the reason why women find dark triad men so attractive.125 Dark triad men are not only more resourceful and assertive—two important components of attraction—they’re also more likely to be charming and humorous. Another aspect that makes dark triad men so alluring is their propensity to take risks and go after what they want without fear of reprisal. This was corroborated by a study published in the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin. The study found that men who displayed nonconformist traits such as risk-taking and assertiveness were seen as more attractive.126 After all, in a world where most people are conformist, the man who’s unafraid to stand out is a unique and valuable commodity. Women want men who have a sense of purpose and ambition. The last thing a woman wants is a man who’s focused exclusively on her and her erratic emotions.

A woman must feel safe pouring her emotions into you without having to worry that you’ll fold under pressure. In the same way, you wouldn’t want to keep your money in a bank that isn’t safe and secure, women don’t want to invest their emotions into men who are weak and vulnerable. This doesn’t mean you should go out of your way to be mean or obnoxious. Research shows that women aren’t attracted to aggressive men who commit reckless acts of violence, they’re attracted to assertive men who have the courage to go after what they want in life.

A man’s innate aggression is only valued when it comes to protecting his loved ones from outside aggressors. Are evil, aggressive men attractive? The answer is no.

Research has confirmed that men who were “known to be evil” or “mean,” regardless of appearance, were classified as highly “unattractive” by both men and women.127

As you read this, you might start to feel unsettled, wondering if you really have to be an “asshole” or selfish to build attraction with women. In the world of seduction, being selfish and self-centered is not as bad as it sounds. It simply means focusing on you as opposed to focusing on her. What’s more, displaying dark triad traits communicates to women that you have the ability to stand up for yourself and focus on what’s important in life: you, your goals, and your mission. You must have purpose, you must have goals, and you must have a mission to give your life meaning. It doesn’t matter whether you want to become a doctor, artist, businessman, entrepreneur, athlete, soldier, or entertainer. If you can harness the dark triad traits that already exist within you, you’ll not only achieve greater focus and clarity, you’re much more likely to be successful as well.

The man who fails with women is the man who seeks out relationships to give his life meaning. Without clear goals and a sense of purpose, you’ll be left feeling unsatisfied, and no amount of love or tenderness from a woman will make you feel better. That’s not to say that having a loving relationship with a woman is impossible, far from it. In fact, I’m here to tell you that you can have love, you can have sex, you can have trust, and you can have loyalty. But before you have any of these things, you must first build attraction.

After all, the purpose of this book is not to show you how attraction should be, it’s to show you how attraction really is. And once you appreciate and understand the true nature of attraction, you can have all the love, sex, and intimacy your heart desires.

I attached Jim Wolfe book in pdf for those who are interested.

 

[Corvus]

Here is Wolfe take on dating myths that are so prevalent today:

I’m not going to say that Western culture causes dating and relationship problems because you are ultimately the cause of what happens in your life <===adopt this powerful mindset.
However, the assumptions embedded in what we unconsciously accept as “normal” about dating and the way romantic relationships are portrayed in TV shows, movies,
magazines, books, and music certainly don’t help you.
When you add the force of marketers trying to convince you that their products will
make women like you more and what your friends and family think you should do when it comes to dating and relationships, it becomes an almost impossible task to resist the ideas of the world around you so that you can be more successful with women.
To get what you want when it comes to dating and relationships, you must resist the
incredibly powerful forces around you that work against you.
If you want to be successful with women and have healthy, satisfying relationships, you simply can’t do what everyone else does.
Hollywood often portrays “normal” male characters as weak, dumb, and immature.
It tends to portray men who are successful with women as men with some kind of dark,
fatal flaw or as inherently bad human beings.
Movies and TV shows reinforce the idea that women are the prize and that you should
be chasing them (not the other way around).
The myth that you should bring her flowers on a date shows up in countless scenes.
Hollywood would have you believe that if you become friends with a woman and then reveal that you’re in love with her several months later, she might love you back.
Disney would have you believe that women are princesses in need of saving.
Movies and TV shows imply that fighting is “normal” in a marriage (couples handle
disagreements in vastly different ways, and that’s a major factor in determining the
health of a relationship).
Our music tends to imply that you should be the one chasing her.
I can’t count the number of songs that tell us we “need” each other.
Men’s magazines give you terrible and often contradictory dating and relationship advice.
Marketers try to sell you on the idea that particular beer brands, clothes, cars,
deodorants, diamond rings and any other thing you can buy will get you the women you want. They also imply that you should buy her expensive gifts, get her jewelry as
often as possible, and take her on trips you can’t afford to impress her.
Marketers will do whatever it takes to sell you a product and a great way to do that is
to convince you that something will help you be more successful with women.
And it’s not just Hollywood, Disney, the media, and mass-marketers creating myths and
passing on bad beliefs.
It’s also the “happy couple” posting happy-looking photos on social media while they
struggle in real life.
It’s celebrity couples who seem perfect to the outside world but end up hating each other.
It’s relationship “experts” who ignore truths they don’t like, give ineffective advice, or promote a bunch of fluff, which doesn’t help the people they serve even if they sell a
ton of books.
Even closer to home, our friends and family perpetuate how they think relationships should be when it’s very unlikely that they have the relationships they really want themselves.
When 70-90% of marriages are NOT happy, healthy, and functional, bad ideas about
dating and relationships are everywhere.
No wonder it’s so difficult.
The powerful forces of culture and well-meaning but misguided people in your life are aligned against you.
To be successful with women, you must resist these forces. This chapter will give you
some ammunition for the fight.
Chances are, through no fault of your own, you have some beliefs that are holding you
back when it comes to dating and relationships.
For your sake, for the women you date, and for future generations, let’s break down
some common false beliefs people have about dating and relationships and replace
them with something closer to reality so that you can be more successful with women
and become a shining light to the world around you as you lead by example.
MYTH: If I befriend her and then all of a sudden "tell her how I feel," she might finally
see how awesome I am and want to be with me.
This one comes straight from the movies, so I wanted to start here. And, in the movies
is the only place this kind of thinking belongs.
TRUTH: She wants a man who will communicate what he wants honestly from the
beginning, not spring it on her randomly later.
If you befriend her but you really want to date her, you’re actually being dishonest and
trying to trick her or manipulate her into liking you. That’s not a good thing no matter
how good your intentions are.
You’re simply trying to avoid rejection. There’s nothing “nice” about it. It simply
communicates low internal value and internal weakness.
It doesn’t make her like you more because she’s attracted to internal strength, not
weakness.
We’ll talk about how to show interest in an attractive way and without being needy
later, but owning your interest in her from the start is important.
Instead of befriending her, go for what you want. Don’t waste your time or hers.
You are strong enough to handle it if she’s not interested.
It’s natural for you to want her.
None of us would be here without that desire.
The more you own your desire for her as normal and not a big deal, the better you’ll
do.
MYTH: As a man, it’s your job to chase her.
TRUTH: As a man, it’s your job to encourage her to chase you (much more about this
later).
MYTH: She’s just “scared.”
TRUTH: She’s not scared. At all. She’s just not interested.
I see this one in movies sometimes. The male character is professing his love for the
female character, and when she resists his advances, he says to her, “You’re just
scared,” or some variation of that general idea.
Let me ask you this: Is she scared of eating her favorite foods, shopping at her favorite
store, or listening to her favorite music?
Of course not. Because she’s ACTUALLY interested in those things.
If her favorite actor or musician wanted to take her out, do you think she’d be excited
out of her mind to go or would she be too “scared?”
A woman who’s interested in you will want to spend time with you and
eventually be in a relationship with you. She will not be afraid at all.
It sounds simple enough, but most men don’t fully grasp this truth.
If you think she’s “just scared,” she’s actually just not interested.
It’s no big deal. Let it go. Move on to the next one who isn’t “afraid.”
The only rare exception to this myth is when her interest in you is so high that she actually does get super nervous around you. In that case, she’ll still agree to go out with you and show up. That’s why we read her actions.
When you’re with her, she might be awkward, fidget, or even keep her body very still around you. If she likes you that much and you misread her nervousness for lack of
interest, she’ll re-engage you later.
MYTH: Women are princesses who need saving.
TRUTH: Women are people who can take care of themselves.
Your job is to find a self-reliant woman and make her already awesome life even better
while she does the same for you.
MYTH: There’s some kind of 1-10 scale that we use to rate women.
TRUTH: There’s no 1-10 scale. Throw it out.
I highly encourage you to change your "rating scale" to 1 or 0 (interested/not
interested).
You're either interested in her or you’re not.
That will take some pressure off you and make your behavior more consistent.
The key is to treat all the women you’re interested in the same, regardless of how
good-looking you think they are.
As soon as you think of a woman as a “10,” it will be nearly impossible for you to date
her.
The truth is that someone else thinks she’s a “7” or a “9.” Who cares?
YOU decide who you're attracted to regardless of social pressure. It doesn't matter
what anyone else thinks about her.
What do YOU think? This is YOUR life.
The only question that matters is this: is she attractive enough for you?
If the answer is yes, then move forward. That will help you no matter how good-looking
she happens to be and it will help you even more with the better-looking ones (or
“1’s”).
The women who are attractive enough for you are all on the same level from now on.
MYTH: Women, especially "attractive" women, are goddesses that we must chase after.
TRUTH: It's time to take women off a pedestal if you have put them there.
This one is related to the last two.
It's her job to overcome obstacles. It's natural for her to chase you.
Society just has you brainwashed to think it's the other way around. Start putting up
little obstacles in her path and she’ll like you more. Try it.
One example is a “false time-constraint:”
You: "I want you to come inside with me, but I have to get up super early, so you can’t
stay long."
Her: "I won't stay long! Please let me come in..."
You: “Ok, you can come in, but only for a few minutes.”
Notice how you pull her in and then push her away because of a small, external
obstacle.
“I’d give you my number, but you’re too drunk. You’ll forget to text me.”
“I’m busy right now, but let’s grab a quick drink tomorrow.”
Creating these little obstacles works really well. You show her some interest and then
take it away and let her chase you if she wants more. You don’t just keep giving it to
her whether she wants it or not. And you’re cool about it whether she chases you at
that point or not.
Then, it’s partly her idea if things happen between you, not just yours.
That takes the pressure off of her and makes her feel like she’s earning your attention.
That makes you different from all the men who either show their interest in her without
ever taking it away or hide their interest in her completely. It’s what makes you
attractive.
When you show some interest and then take it away and she starts chasing you for
more, you’re in the best possible position. We want her to chase you and work to get
you. It’s best for both of you.
Also, and more importantly, women are just people like you.
They are right about some things and wrong about some things, just like you.
They have good qualities and bad qualities, just like you.
Women are not goddesses. They are not evil.
They are not above you. They are not beneath you.
She's a perfectly imperfect human being, just like you.
So, what are the things that truly matter when it comes to picking a partner if nobody’s
perfect? We'll get to that in chapter 6.
MYTH: Women aren’t as sexual as men.
TRUTH: Female sexuality is suppressed in many cultures.
Most women are very sexual, but when her society looks down on female sexuality, it
can hurt her reputation to fully express her sexuality in public.
She doesn’t want you or anyone else to think negatively about her.
If you show her that you won’t judge her at all for her sexuality and that you’ll protect
her reputation in public, good things will probably happen.
MYTH: Women don't need help with dating and relationships.
TRUTH: One of the things I wish I could make both women and men see is how much
the "other side" is trying to be more attractive to them.
I think that would help people view each other in a more positive light when it comes to
dating.
When people first started hearing that I knew something about dating and
relationships, more women came to me for coaching than men.
Many women I talk to can’t understand why men would need help with dating.
Seriously.
You’d be surprised by how many people of all genders are trying to figure this stuff out.
Keep that in mind when you’re out there connecting with women; they’re trying too.
They’re nervous too. They’re frustrated too. They want to attract and keep their ideal
man too.
Show her that man exists by applying the principles in this book.
MYTH: Men are more afraid of commitment than women and women are happier in
relationships than men.
TRUTH: In a 2006 survey conducted by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention
involving over 12,000 people, 66% of men agreed with the statement, “It is better to
get married than go through life single,” while only 51% of women surveyed agreed.
Neil Chethik’s research has shown that 90% of married men say they would marry the
same woman again if given the choice. A 2006 Women’s Day Magazine and AOL survey
of over 3,000 married women showed that only 44% would marry the same man again.
Also, women are much more likely to be the partner who files for divorce.
So, while our society portrays men as inherently commitment-phobic and implies that
women are happier in relationships, the reality is that there is evidence that men
actually value marriage more than women and that more men than women are happy
in their marriage.
While men seem to need much more help navigating the relationship landscape and
keeping their partner happy, women buy about 70% of the books in the relationship
category.
It’s women who are generally unhappy in their relationships today, yet it’s women who
tend to buy books about the subject. Books about relationships are usually written for
women because marketers know this.
That’s one reason I wrote this book.
MYTH: If she’s dating you or married to you, she’s in love with you.
TRUTH: She could be going out with you for lots of different reasons. Only one of them
is that she’s actually available and interested in you.
If she marries you, that doesn’t necessarily mean she’s in love with you at all. It just
means she’s married to you. There’s a huge difference.
In fact, I’d be willing to bet that a majority of married women are not in love with their
husbands. And many women who were in love with their husband at some point no
longer feel that way.
Luckily, this book will show you how to tell if she’s actually interested in you, how to
raise her interest in you to the level we call being “in love,” and then how to keep it
there.
MYTH: Nobody knows what women want.
TRUTH: We talked about this in chapter 1, but it’s worth repeating. It's not about what
women "want;" it's about what women actually respond to.
That’s why you can’t ask them what they want and get a real answer very often. They
aren’t necessarily attracted to what they think they should be attracted to. Neither are
we.
Luckily, we know what women respond to, as we discussed in chapter 1.
In order to apply the principles of female attraction and achieve relationship bliss, you
have to accept the reality of what attracts her and get rid of wishful thinking.
Until then it will be an uphill battle.
It’s also important not to judge her for what she’s attracted to. She can’t help it any
more than you can. We accept these truths and move forward in the way that’s best for
everyone based on reality.
Trust me; sometimes I don’t necessarily like the realities of human psychology either.
Sometimes the reality of who we are can be offensive to our intelligence.
That doesn’t mean it isn’t the truth.
Remember: The less I fight reality, the better I do.
MYTH: Women like assholes.
TRUTH: Women like men who are internally strong.
Again, that means they don't pretend to be her friend when they really want to date
her. They’re not ashamed of their true desires, so the way they act toward her clearly
communicates what they want. While they’re unashamed of what they want, they’re
also completely fine if she’s not interested.
Men who are internally strong have the ability to stand up for themselves and say no to
her when warranted.
This behavior doesn't make its way into truly "jerk" territory until he can only say no to
her, at which point he’s simply controlling.
Women with self-respect won't stay with a guy like that for long, but they aren't
attracted to guys who are afraid of what they want or guys who can't say no to her
either.
She wants you to be congruent with who you really are.
Turn your music up if she complains about the kind of music you like (be funny about, not mean).
If she makes fun of your interests, never back down. Don’t try to convince her to like
what you like, but don’t change your mind about what you like just because she has
different tastes and preferences either.
If you disagree with her, say so without being disagreeable.
She’s not looking for a pushover or more of herself.
She’s looking for a man who’s interested in her but won’t sacrifice himself
and his values and interests just to be with her.
You might think of a guy like that as an “asshole,” but really he just has good
boundaries.
Now, so do you.
She will be more attracted to you the more you stay true to yourself and say no to her
when appropriate, not less.
She might be upset with you in the moment when you stand up to her, say no to her,
call her out on something, refuse to change your tastes and opinions to match hers, or
otherwise stick to your guns, but she will be more attracted to you over the long-term.
She will respect you, and she can’t feel deep attraction and love for you unless she
respects you.
The only time she won’t respect you more for standing up for yourself is if she’s a
controlling woman herself. In that case, you’ll be screening out a woman that you don’t
want to be with anyway.
Trust me and try it.
MYTH: She wants a funny, nice guy who cares about her.
TRUTH: While she wants a funny, nice guy on paper, she responds emotionally to the
active demonstration of real internal value and strength, preselection, and challenge if
you pass her initial physical attraction test.
This myth is the opposite of the last myth, but it’s just as pervasive in the way our
culture encourages men to think about relationships.
As we discussed in chapter 1, if you behave like a man who has high internal value and
strength and who has lots of options, and you are playfully challenging, when she
finally earns your attention and catches you, she’ll feel like she got a good deal.
You’re the exact same guy, but the way she sees you will be different. <===Read 3X.
She then rationalizes that you are a funny, awesome guy who cares about her because
she feels so strongly about you. Not the other way around.
She will use any number of “logical” reasons why her emotional brain is so in love with
you.
That’s only a bad thing if you don’t really believe you’re good for her or you’re not really
interested in her.
Otherwise, giving her what she really wants deep down is the most ethical thing you
can do.
Why selfishly hold back the gift of her falling in love with an amazing guy just because
you want to “be yourself?”
If you don’t do it, some other guy eventually will, or she’ll end up settling like most of
the population.
Not pretty.
Give her the gift of being truly and deeply emotionally attracted to an awesome man:
you.
MYTH: If you do everything right, you can get any woman you want.
TRUTH: The most attractive man on earth can’t get any woman he wants.
There’s nothing you can do that will get you any woman you want.
If she’s not interested in you at all, there is absolutely nothing you can do to make her
like you. If she was interested in you before but has 0 interest in you now, there’s
nothing you can do to make her like you again. Trying to get her or trying get her back
is a waste of time and energy.
You can only encourage the women who are already at least somewhat interested in
you to like you more.
That’s all “game” is.
You can work on your physical appearance and social status to have more options, but
there will never be a time when every woman in the world is interested in you.
Remember that your interest in her is completely separate from her interest in you. It
doesn’t matter how much you like her. It only matters how much she likes you.
Your job is simply to identify the women who are interested in you that you
also happen to like and make them like you more.
That’s it.
If someone tells you that there’s a way to get any woman you want, they probably just
want your money.
MYTH: The most successful men never get rejected.
TRUTH: The most successful men see things differently.
They aren’t concerned about whether things work out with one particular woman or
not. They see what you call “rejection” as a good thing because it means that they have
taken action and produced an outcome.
They would rather get “rejected” now than waste time with women who aren’t
interested.
They know that each “rejection” gets them closer to what they desire. They know that
being with the women they really want requires them to face more “no’s” than the
average guy can handle and still feel good about themselves.
Some of the most successful men even enjoy rejection. They feed the positive energy
that was generated by actively pursuing their desires right back into their positive view
of themselves and then use it to take even more action.
When a woman isn’t interested, they truly believe that it’s her loss and they don’t have
to prove it. They don’t make it a big deal. They don’t take it personally and they realize
that she doesn’t even really know them.
So does “rejection” even exist? It depends on how you look at it.
MYTH: Other men are almost certainly better at attracting and keeping women than I
am.
Other guys have it way better than me, especially guys with money, fame, power, and
good looks.
TRUTH: Almost everyone sucks at romantic relationships based on love.
Powerful, wealthy, good-looking men tend to have more options, but they aren’t
necessarily any better with women than you are.
And forget the divorce rate.
Only 10-30% of marriages are happy, healthy, and functional.
The prevalence of cheating is probably higher than you think.
Creating and maintaining good romantic relationships is a skill you have to learn and
this skill is completely separate from every other skill.
Lots of rich, otherwise successful guys are terrible with women and lots of guys with no
money are great with women.
Just look at the sheer number of celebrity divorces if you don't believe me.
Even worse, being rich or famous attracts women who are interested in your money
and fame, not women who are interested in YOU.
Please stop accepting what you see on TV and the cute pictures of couples on social
media as reality.
Hardly anyone has this stuff down.
You are much better off being single and learning the information in this book than you
are being involved in almost any relationship you see out there.
Sad, but true. And also an opportunity for all of us to grow as human beings.
I've been studying dating and relationships for over 13 years now from every
imaginable angle and I'm still learning new things almost every day.
Encouraging a woman to fall and stay in love with you is a skill you can learn and just
because a guy has more money than you, is better looking than you, or is in a position
of power doesn’t mean he knows anything about it.
This book is here to support you on your unique path to getting exactly what you want
when it comes to dating and relationships.
This is about you and your happiness, not competing with the fictitious standards of
edited, glossy, filtered reality. Keep your eyes on your own lane and just keep taking action.
Wherever you are on your path right now, let’s just start moving forward toward what
you want.
MYTH: Being in a bad relationship is better than being alone.
TRUTH: It’s much better to be single and living a life you love on your own that it is to
be with a woman who isn’t right for you or who doesn’t treat you well.
So many people get into or stay in bad relationships because they’re afraid to be alone.
Don’t buy into it when people ask you things like, “When you get old, who’s going to
wipe your chin?” implying that being single is like having some kind of disease. It’s
nonsense.
Instead, take great care of yourself and get comfortable with yourself so you can be
happy no matter what happens with the women in your life and so you can walk away
if you need to. It’s better for both of you if you can be happy on your own and then
choose to bring her into your life instead of needing her.
MYTH: I need you baby.
TRUTH: You are whole and complete all on your own. So is she.
A healthy relationship involves two whole and complete individuals who add to each
other’s lives. They do NOT complete each other.
In an unhealthy relationship, 1 + 1 = 1.
The two individuals meld into one person.
In a healthy relationship, 1 + 1 = 3.
Each individual is complete on their own and the relationship between the two complete
beings creates something new.
The only things you truly need are food, water, shelter, and air.
You are there to add more to each other’s lives, not fill some kind of void inside either
of you.
MYTH: Somewhere out there, you have a "soul mate."
TRUTH: There are MANY "ones."
Sorry if this one bursts your bubble (actually I’m not because smashing this belief will
greatly improve your dating success and your relationships with all the women in your
life).
This is the foundation of a true abundance mentality.
Adopt the true belief that there are thousands of ideal women for you. It’s
mathematically true no matter what kind of guy you are.
When you meet one of these “ones,” there are thousands of ideal men for her also. If it
doesn’t work out between the two of you, it’s not the end of the world for either of you.
MYTH: When you meet “the one,” you “just know.”
TRUTH: Beyond the fact that there are many “ones,” it takes about 2 years of dating
someone before you really know them and before you can make a good decision about
whether or not they’re right for you.
Of course, sometimes you know very quickly if someone is not right for you, but it takes
much longer to make a good decision about whether she is right for you.
The way we feel about someone can easily mislead us straight into a relationship that
doesn’t serve us well.
While you can’t control the way you feel about someone, you can control whether or
not you decide to continue dating them.
This book will help you make a better judgment call on who is actually right or wrong
for you long-term.
MYTH: You’ll find her when you’re not looking.
TRUTH: Almost. You’ll attract and keep her when you stop needing her.
The opposite of being attractive is being needy. That’s why once you have her other
women will pay more attention to you.
While this myth is closer to the truth than other myths, it can be even more dangerous
because it implies that you shouldn’t have a plan.
Having a plan is paramount when you start to like her. Your ability to control yourself,
and therefore your ability to keep her attracted, will only be possible if you knowingly
follow an effective course of action.
I wouldn’t leave any of this up to chance.
MYTH: You should “just be yourself.”
TRUTH: It’s wildly naïve to think that you can attract and keep your ideal woman
without learning attractive behaviors.
Relating to women is a skill you can learn, just like driving a car. It doesn’t
fundamentally change who you are unless you let it.
If someone asked you to teach them how to drive a car, would you tell them, “Just be
yourself?”
Of course not.
While you shouldn’t change your core personality (in fact you should express your real
self more), this myth implies that you can’t or shouldn’t learn new things.
That comes from an insecure, fixed mindset. It implies that you already know
everything.
The truth is that we can always improve the way we interact with women.
What’s ironic is that the men who are most successful with women are usually the ones
who are most open to continuing to learn.
I’ll never forget what happened the day one of my first interviews about relationships
on a popular podcast came out.
I was shocked when one of the first people to tell me how much they enjoyed it and
how much they learned from it was one of my friends who has one of the most
attractive, amazing wives you could possibly imagine. He’s one of the coolest guys I’ve
ever met. If anything, he should be teaching me.
I never expected that he would listen to my interview in a million years.
Yet, he was the one who said he learned something from it before anyone else. Take
note of that lesson and always keep it in your mind.
Never stop learning.
“Just be yourself” is both the best and worst advice we can get when it comes to
dating.
It’s the best because we should strive to express ourselves authentically. It’s the worst
because it’s an essentially meaningless piece of advice and when it’s applied specifically
to dating it ignores the fact that our behavior in that context, and therefore our results,
has very little to do with who we really are “deep down.”
If anything, improving your dating and relationship skills makes you a stronger, better,
more real version of yourself. It allows you to express who you are and your true
desires at a higher level.
Let me ask you this: If women were constantly trying to be more attractive to you,
would you be offended?
Be proud of the fact that you’re learning to be more attractive to women.
Be who you are but keep growing.
MYTH: “Deep” connection with her involves sharing negative things about yourself and
your life, exposing your insecurities and wounds, and having serious conversations.
TRUTH: Experiencing new things together, sharing positives, and having fun creates the
best connection you can have with her.
A healthy relationship is based on positive mutual feelings.
I’m not saying you should be “fake happy” all the time. In fact, I think you should fully
experience all of your emotions instead of repressing them.
What I’m saying is that you can always choose to focus on positives or negatives when
you’re talking to her.
It’s far better to keep your focus on the positives and see the world through a positive
lens when you’re with her.
Be real, but share mostly positives from your past with her and leave out negatives. For
example, if your ex brutally dumped you three months ago, leave that negativity at
home instead of bringing it with you on your date.
Ask her about things that are likely to bring up positive feelings. Stay away from heavy,
serious subjects.
Build your connection with her by having as much fun as possible, not by sharing
negative, heavy things.
Add real positive energy to her life.
Don’t fall into the trap of becoming each other’s psychotherapists instead of lovers.
Handle your issues and problems on your own time. Don’t try to solve her problems
either.
Remember that there’s a big difference between being honest and being open. Always
be honest; just focus on the positives about you and your life as much as you can.
Date women who have positive attitudes and lead your conversations in a positive
direction. Be playful with her most of the time.
The fun you’re having together should be the basis of your connection with her,
especially in the early stages of dating.
You’re there to add more happiness to each other’s lives. Focus on that as much as
possible.
MYTH: Telling her how much you like her or love her will make her like you or love you
more.
TRUTH: Verbally expressing your interest in her actually makes her like you less. It kills
her attraction and love.
Instead of “telling her how you feel,” communicate your interest by properly attracting
her.
Once she’s in love with you, communicate your love by treating her well. Don’t tell her.
Show her.
She knows that men will say anything to get what they want from her, so your words
mean much less than your actions. And, she’s attracted to mystery and challenge in the
beginning stages of dating. Verbal declarations of interest take that from her.
Also, if you rarely tell her how you feel, she’ll feel like she earned it when you do. Then
she’ll think it’s a special occasion instead of losing attraction for you.
Keep your verbal expressions of love to a minimum.
If she says, “I love you” you can say, “You have excellent taste in men (smile)” or,
“How much?” instead of saying it back. Be playful with it.
If she presses you to tell her how much you love her at any point after you’re in a long-
term relationship with her, say, “Is it really that important to you for me to say it?
Okay, here you go: I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you,
I love you. Happy? (Smile and be playful with it).”
Then go back to showing her how you feel instead of telling her.
MYTH: Flowers, poems, gifts, and expensive trips make her more interested in you.
TRUTH: Those things make her less attracted to you because they destroy the frame
that you’re the prize.
As soon as you start trying to impress her or trying to make her like you, you start
losing her.
You can give her a flower, give her a small thoughtful gift, or take her on a trip once
she’s already in love with you. Just make sure you wait until then.
Give her the gift of intense increasing attraction and the feeling of falling in love with
you instead of flowers. <===Read 3X.
MYTH: Dinner and a movie is a good date idea.
TRUTH: I think this myth has been debunked for the most part, but it’s still common to
see a “dinner and a movie” date on TV shows and in movies, so I wanted to address it.
I don’t like dinner and a movie dates in general, but I think you should definitely avoid
them for at least the first 3 dates.
Why?
First, you should keep your first few dates short and fun. Having dinner requires 45
minutes to an hour minimum and a movie usually takes a couple hours. You’ll both feel
stuck there if the date isn’t going well. It creates an awkward atmosphere that makes
everything more difficult for you.
Second, it shows no creativity on your part. Every guy on the planet knows about the
dinner and a movie date. She’s seen it before. You can take her to coffee for your first
date as a low-key way to test her interest and get things going, but try to come up with
something she hasn’t done a million times for your second or third date.
Last, if you take her to a movie, you can’t talk to her, playfully banter back and forth
with her, or get to know her more. There’s no interplay. You’re just two strangers
sitting next to each other in a dark room. You’re not deepening your attraction or
connection with her at all.
More about what makes for a good date later, but for now just know that taking the
“dinner and a movie” date off the table for the first three dates will help your chances with her.
MYTH: All couples argue.
TRUTH: All couples disagree.
The way you and your partner manage the inevitable conflict that will come up between
you is one of the most important aspects of your long-term relationships.
All couples experience conflict on a regular basis.
Some couples usually talk things out calmly and respectfully, while other couples
frequently have all-out verbal wars involving put-downs and contempt.
We’ll discuss how to handle conflict with her in chapter 7, but it’s important to expect
conflict to happen in all of your relationships, learn how to deal with it well, and date
women who want to work with you instead of against you.
MYTH: There’s a time when attraction or interest “naturally” drops off.
TRUTH: Her high interest in you can be maintained indefinitely assuming you ramp it up
high enough to begin with and then do the things necessary to keep it there.
This book will show you how to do both.
Let’s start by talking about the four phases of romantic relationships so you always
know where you are and where you’re headed.

It is basically good guy guide and when you see those myths being promoted by Hoolywood, media and culture you see it is by design to make man weak, ignorant and cause suffering. And this is the reason those pathologicals have the edge by their inate nature and by programming all other to act in opposite way.

 

[Happy Poo]

My advice is not to worry about it.
If you think it through, someone who's into esoterica is just as likely to be an ashole as anyone else.
You would have to find someone who's really into the same type of esoterica as you are and someone who is both serious about the work and is applying it in their life.
Not saying it's not possible, but you can't be looking for that because it's like a needle in a haystack.
Even if you found them, it doesn't mean they would be the right person for you with your current state of development.

My experience with my wife is that she's turned out to be exactly the perfect person for me in terms of the work and everything that's really important in life. There's problems and conflict of course, but all of that is par for the course.
What you need is someone who shares your core values, not your interests.
Someone you can talk to on an equal intellectual level, even if it's not about your favorite topics. You need someone to contend with, someone who will not let you coast through life and your relationship because they don't have the intellectual means to call you out on your bullshit.
I've had a couple girlfriends before who were very much into esoterica and I know even more women who I've had no romantic involvement with and I can tell you that none of these women would be good for me even if we might agree on a good number of core ideas about the world.
My wife doesn't even believe in an afterlife it's just too difficult for her to imagine that it's real even after I exposed her to a lot of the afterlife materials and after many (very intellectually satisfying) discussions on the matter.
Yet, she is the absolute best person I know in terms of her morality and simply correct functioning. She's far from perfect and so am I and we help each other become better people even without taking any sort of esoteric ideas into the equation.
As has been said already, we need to deal with simple karmic understandings and esoteric endeavour can often be just an excuse not to work on the simple stuff.
Become a good Obyvatel, in Gurdjieff's terminology, and find someone who you deem a worthy companion on that quest.
Forget about lofty ideas and focus on the immediate things down here on earth.
That should be everyone's primary objective. Esoteric development can only come after a certain level of attainment in the simple karmic understating department.
And simple karmic understanding can be informed by the esoteric, more and more as we come along the way, but the esoteric should not be seen as a goal in and of itelf.

My two cents. Hope it helps.

Hi appreciate you comment, although for me one of the simple understandings that are intrinsic to my happiness, (speaking personally), and this I've learned through so many failures and really difficult situations, (and i know this doesn't apply to everyone and we've all got different needs etc), is that my core values are based around the work, and this such a big part of who i am that if someone doesn't intend to learn or read about these things, and should clarify, when saying esoteric, the meaning was more specifically about the Cassiopaean work. And things like the Ra materia - If someone doesn't share these things that is such a big part of life for me, then I know that it simply won't work for me.

It may be different for others, and the key probably is self knowledge.. Which is an ongoing process for sure so always open to change as I've made so many mistakes. Some have been so costly however, that I'm def not going to repeat them.

Thought i could get along with someone who didn't have an interest or share these values and were co-linear in being dedicated to the work, to learning, to become STO.

But in reality, was lying to myself to try to make life easier as it's more difficult for me to be on my own, and because of physical attraction, companionship.

Kept telling myself it would work but deep down knew that I was looking for something that wasn't there.

I've stayed away from relationships for many years before this because of having the same kind of problems with this, the same thing has happened before and with the same results. End up with a failed relationship and hurting others too .

And i guess all of our experiences are different and each person has their own needs. From what I've learned, our feelings, especially gut feelings are a powerful indication of what works and what doesn't work in our lives... And I've ignored them before with disastrous results.

Ending a relationship recently was one of the most difficult things I've had to do. But it was literally destroying my health. There were so many battles and conflicts related to disagreements about our values, so much energy drain. Many of them were because were at odds and this was down to a lack of understanding between us, due to the fact that he wasn't very interested in this work specifically.

It is better to be with someone, agreed it's good to learn from relationships.
But on the other hand what I understand is that relationships are one of the main ways people can be got at by STS. And from what I understand, all people are portals until they have "lost their scales".

And how can they loose their scales unless they learn about this and all the issues surrounding? Or are at be least open to it. Or even know that they are STS in the first place..
Went through a lot of suffering regarding this, so maybe that's why I'm really not going to compromise my values again this time, as it was an extreme experience. But again it's all learning, there must be many things that I don't understand well..

Life is harder now, got to work more, less time for doing the creative stuff I was planning which is frustrating as financially it was easier to be with someone .. But health is getting better and very happy to be free from a situation that was very damaging emotionally, physically, and spiritually, and if say I'm being broken down then I'm no good for anyone or anything lol.
Different for everyone i guess.

What i did notice though, was the constant conflict about various things that were exacerbated by misunderstandings due to gaps in our perceptions, this was a huge drain of energy.

For me the basic understandings like how energy works, and how and why negative energy drains us etc, that are taught to us via this work are intrinsic to a healthy life.

And if say my partner doesn't get this, then it became very difficult to relate to each other on a deeper level, which became really draining and frustrating.

I don't see how someone can develop this kind of awareness, protection, knowledge, without the kind of information that is given to us here.. And it was my personal experience that relationships without this aspect act as blockages. Not saying that this applies to everyone. I'd love to be in a relationship that was healthy don't get me wrong, the feeling was though, i was being idealistic about it, and my expectations were too high or something along those lines.

 

[Ryan]

Well, Corvus was in fact talking about how pathological men manipulated women, so I don't see how it didn't apply.

Yes, I see that after having re-read his post.

I would say many, maybe most men throughout history have been doing their level best. The fact that romantic love still even exists as a concept to this day is testament to that.

Looking at the history of warfare on this planet, which is primarily a male occupation, I think it's justifiable to say that our best hasn't been good enough so far.

It sounds like you're saying we should be more considerate of snowflakes around here and sugar coat whatever difficult thruths we happen to want to convey. How was Corvus to know that the author would get offended by mere statements of fact?

Not at all. Ms/Mrs Brown's "snowflakedness" is something that only just became apparent to me. Indeed, I'm tempted to re-read "Women Who Love Psychopaths" with my new perspective and see if/where said snowflakedness may have introduced bias into her findings. I don't consider such an endeavour high priority at this point though; there are much more important books to read.

If I recall correctly, external considering is not something that should be regularly practiced with people who are in the Work. If someone posts on this forum, I expect their doing the Work and can handle being exposed to ideas that might not jive with their current understanding.
Am I wrong?

External considering should be practiced at all times, especially with those in the Work. However, just because someone posts on this Forum doesn't necessarily mean they're doing the Work. It's a public place of free speech and discussion, or at least the public forums are. Best not to have expectations in that regard, osit.

 

[Matai]

This has been a very interesting thread especially due to the alternating condemnation and then seeming redemption of some of Corvus' main points. Even more interesting is the appearance of there being some disconnect even between some of the moderators/ambassadors or "Elders" of this forum based on some comments and looking at the likes of certain comments.

I was initially quite surprised by some of the reactions towards his initial post. As has been mentioned, the romance novels paint a very good picture of the general dynamics of male and female relationships. They make no secret of the inherent differences and, if anything, hyper-masculinize and feminize the characters, or at least compared to a modern day/"normal" life context. The Romance reading is also largely female inspired given most (Actually all?) of the authors of the recommended list are women. Similarly outside the forum most readers are women, Joe has also pointed out the popularity among women of the more erotic/crude version of these in "50 shades of Gray". He also made a good point of us all meaning "normal" women as opposed to women of this forum, who should be of a different caliber.

After reading the entire thread I think my initial surprise was misplaced as relationships between members of the opposite sex will generally (once again this tricky word) be the most intense and time consuming relationships we will have, often greater even than a Mother with her children. Therefore strong emotional/mental reactions are completely normal and understandable.

In regards to advice for men, Corvus has brought up some good points. Based on the summary of the books he has recommended, there are some useful pieces of advice but I would caution young men from following the advice which concerns faking anything, such as the advice to: (paraphrasing) "Make her wait longer by saying you are busy to make her more attracted". This is nowhere near as effective as actually BEING busy and truly having purpose and work that needs to be done in your life. Making up such things is a poor crutch and can only hinder you in the long term.

Plainly stated IMO if I was giving advice to a younger brother/Son I can fairly confidently make a quick list of some fairly reasonable generalizations which I believe will hold them in good stead:
Biology, looks, height, body fat, muscle mass, strength, fighting ability, wealth, future wealth, status, humor, confidence, courage, intelligence, forthrightness, assertiveness, boldness etc all matter and they matter a LOT to most women - to say otherwise would be doing them a disservice. To not work on all of these attributes in a balanced, measured way as a man making his way in a 3D STS world would be a large disservice to themselves.

YES, you WILL notably get more attention/success (however you define this) with women when you improve on any of these metrics, this is clear from the research and from anecdotal experience. Whether this correlates well with having more success with the one person who you wish to share your life with, in particular regarding forum members who undoubtedly have more complex requirements for partners in such a relationship, is more complicated, although I think it is fair to assume that the women of this forum would not be disgruntled if their significant other improved in the above mentioned areas.

I would also tell them about the negative aspects of female behavior in a general way - as Joe explained in a way that is instructive without becoming dogmatic. Many of these aspects have already been mentioned in this thread so there is no need to belabor the point.

In my own personal context my partner is very classically feminine reminiscent to most female characters in the romance novels. I think this is in part due to my voracious reading of such novels which helped further my understanding of what I truly find attractive in a women and also helped me to feel more confident in my inner sensing of myself as a man. She was raised by parents who are traditionally christian. Her Father is very masculine and was the provider of financial and physical security for the family. Her Mother was the main caregiver and manager of the household. Her Mother was a virgin before meeting her Father and her Father was more of a "rake". Certain things have surprised me being with her, in that often she will consciously tell me if I am not being "manly" enough towards her and initially I would be much more hesitant to play such a strong role. I have learnt that when my partner asks me a question the worst answer I can give is "I don't mind" or "whatever you want honey". Giving such replies is second nature to most men these days as is being cagey/shy with expressing want we want in an assertive fashion.

She will openly tell me that she would much rather I say directly want I want and that way she feels like there is an anchor/ark from which she can embrace to help make her decisions. When I am equivocal she feels more adrift and uncertain. This doesn't mean what I say is final or any silly domineering interpretation that can be made of this, we still discuss both of our wants/needs but it is much easier for her when I am clear and direct. In this way I am serving her by being more masculine. We often laugh about how neutral she can be towards things, being balanced and feeling out all sides of an issue, and how I can quickly cut to the crux of the matter. Each easily seeing the strengths/weaknesses of the other. She has recently started reading the romance novels at my suggestion and loves them! I thank her because internally I have always felt more clear in my choices than I was raised to be and her giving me such feedback has been very freeing and I am much happier because of it. I have found that her helping me uncover my true(er) self has increased attractiveness between us, particularly in the bedroom. Those familiar with the romance novels know the characters never have any issue in this department. This dynamic will obviously be different between different couples, but the essence of the polarity will ring true for most people.

 

[Michal]

Looking at the history of warfare on this planet, which is primarily a male occupation

Hi,
Once thought came to me: how many wars are purely men thing and how many fights/wars/male agression is/was inspired by women?
Seeing effect and active side is obvious.
Raising children, showing them what mom praises the most, how to be her hero, what are values worth fighting and dying for - these are the things that are created calmly and not spectacularly at homes, schools, hidden from external world.
I hope You see that I am not judging.
Just one example of our men/women interactions that creates our reality.

 

[Scottie]

We also weren't looking for each other, it was a shot gun wedding so that we could both travel and live in each others countries and be adventure bound. Serendipitously we fell in love along the way so I guess the idea that things come to you when you're not looking for them is true for us.

Sounds like the plot from a good romance novel.

But maybe you are a simp, or have been.. I know I have, oh brother have I ever. But I believe that the way out of it is not to pretend you're not, or convince yourself that you're not, but really dig past it... use it as a working term for the time being, assume it as a reality or a working hypothesis, and then test it, with your memory and with your life and see if you like it.. if you don't then now you have a chance to change it.

Stop comparing yourself against other people, who are better emotionally regulated, or have a partner and seem happy.. and face yourself.

That's it, in a nutshell. It's also fascinating to start examining yourself in this way. You might just discover that, oh look! In many ways, you're already the man/woman you want to be... It's just that there are a few 'little programs' that get in the way sometimes... And sometimes, those 'little' programs get in the way in a BIG way.

A lot of what we are discussing here reminds of this thread from 2018 for those interested.
The "Rational Male and Female"? - Biology and Programs in Relationships

At the time it was some what of a revelation for me, discovering how men and woman think very differently, and for a variety of reasons, this is natural and even necessary, after all we are the yin and yang, we're meant to fit together, the two opposites that make a whole!?

It's a fascinating subject, and one well worth exploring IMO, to better understand the opposite sex and their motivations via biology and psychology has certainly helped me understand my own failures. And as Joe said above, there's lots of trial and error, we all have our own individual makeup, some learned some intrinsic. The key as always is knowing, or at least striving to know, both your own tendencies and those of the opposite sex and acting accordingly.

IMO when some topic keeps popping up again and again that creates a lot of, um, 'emotionality', it's probably a good idea to dive in and really start working on it. Don't want any billboards falling on our heads!

Its simple, you have to be respectfull and try to be as little selfish as you can. There is a real person in front of you, and you must never forget that. Any kind of esoterism and "work on self", without understanding that is just fake IMO.

Amen!

 

[Asa]

Some members seem to have taken Corvus' statements personally, as if they applied to us. This is strange to me because most of us here have no problem when we make generalized judgemental statements about "people out there" in the context of the Work. We all seem to agree with statements like "most people are sheep" etc., because we

a) have evidence that it's true

and

b) exclude ourselves to a large extent from that statement.

We are the exception, right? So why not in this case? Why can members not take a step back and assess the validity or otherwise of what he was saying from that detached perspective? Why do some of you seem to react as if it were a personal judgement?

I suppose it's not surprising that the PTB have weaponized the differences between the sexes at this point in history. It obviously runs pretty deep, even for 'enlightened' people like ourselves.

It is very interesting that of all the complex, controversial and dark topics addressed on this forum, this one appears to trigger people the most.

In my opinion, the reason we can't detach from this topic the way we can from others is because our culture is so deeply saturated in 'feminist' ideology (in its various shades, and as it has developed over the first, second and third waves), and has been so successful in programming our beliefs, that people are automatically responding to these threads from the programmed perspective of that ideology, and ignoring observable reality.

This is why Rollo Tomassic makes the claim that 'all' women are feminists, even if they don't realize it. I would go further and say 'all' men are, as well.