Is There an Ideal Way of Acting and Being in Male-Female Relationships?

[Wandering Star]

There is a phrase from a movie (paraphrasing):

- Why do you like me?

- You make me a better person!

Practically before this, the lawyer would say: There are no more questions, Mr. Judge!

 

[Michal]

Don't want any billboards falling on our heads!

What did You mean by that?

 

[Andromeda]

And Canwell goes more in the research and gives not so nice facts of reality and one example that is good for Sandra thread is that anxiety breads attraction and you can easily link it to psychopathy:

I would have thought that this was common knowledge. What I fail to see, is how, other than using this knowledge to protect yourself from pathologicals (or possibly applying it among already committed and consenting adults in the bedroom), it is appropriate to use in the context of attracting a partner. If someone needs to resort to using anxiety or dread intentionally to excite a new partner, they very likely don't have much to recommend them in the long term.

Am I getting it wrong? I didn't read the book. Does it actually recommend doing this?

Here is Wolfe take on dating myths that are so prevalent today:

I did read that. I would say that there is about 20% solid advice rapped around enough pathological attitude to render it repulsive. Most of it reads like a dog training guide couched in terms of 'giving her a gift' and 'she doesn't know her own mind'.

And a lot of it is just plain wrong. Good lord! I do recognize that a lot of younger men today need advice about relating to women, but this is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. I would think that with the level of discernment necessary to glean much of use from something like that, the young man should have the faculties to glean it from other sources. It is not hidden knowledge.

 

[nf3]

It is not hidden knowledge.

It is deeply obscured knowledge buried under piles of guilt and shame surrounding sex and, especially, healthy masculinity in today's society.

Edit: To be clear I don't mean the act of sex, which is widely promoted without shame, even to the point of sexualizing children, but the proper use of sex energy in the Gurdjieffian sense: to create children and to develop oneself to provide a stable family environment for their upbringing.

 

[Beau]

There was also at the beginning comment from authority - first Beau, then Sandra chimed in and Laura, which I feel had an effect for some of You to filter this conversation through initial, authorities comments and switch off Your own thinking.

I did react unfairly to Corvus' initial post and possibly primed others to do the same. Also want to apologize for calling @Corvus an incel in so many words. I'm glad he came back and is continuing to post in this thread despite the initial blowback he received. We are all on a learning process, no matter what it says next to our name here. And this topic can be triggering as Asa pointed out. I like where the discussion is at now, I think there's a lot to be learned from a healthy back and forth.

 

[Joe]

She will openly tell me that she would much rather I say directly want I want and that way she feels like there is an anchor/ark from which she can embrace to help make her decisions. When I am equivocal she feels more adrift and uncertain. This doesn't mean what I say is final or any silly domineering interpretation that can be made of this, we still discuss both of our wants/needs but it is much easier for her when I am clear and direct.

One thing that I've repeatedly noted in certain parts of various responses here, like the one above, is where the advice for men about "how to respond (etc.) to women" is obviously applicable in to ANYONE in responding or interacting with ANYONE.

Like Matai's comment above about his wife explicitly telling him that she prefers him to be direct about what he wants rather than being ambivalent, that's something that I think would be kind of annoying (at least mildly) to anyone.

Can anyone think of any other examples of where 'truths' about most women from a man's perspective are actually truths about most human beings from other human beings' perspective?

 

[Jimmy Ssaz]

I did react unfairly to Corvus' initial post and possibly primed others to do the same. Also want to apologize for calling @Corvus an incel in so many words. I'm glad he came back and is continuing to post in this thread despite the initial blowback he received. We are all on a learning process, no matter what it says next to our name here. And this topic can be triggering as Asa pointed out. I like where the discussion is at now, I think there's a lot to be learned from a healthy back and forth.

That is why it is not necessary to accuse or blame many times that happens and for certain behaviors tend to crucify someone in the forum unjustly.

 

[doubleback]

Wow. To all that was written in this thread. I don't mean to be harsh it is just my natural reaction for better or for worse.
It is good to have differences in opinions but what is also needed is to try to understand someone's point of view which stems from his environment and experiences. We all had it different in that regard.
Of course most people, men and women, crave to be consumed by love but what I want to point here, what I deeply think we are, is that we are souls having body/flesh experience and that we want to experience joy and hapiness and to ultimately love another being and receive it back, if at all possible.
It may also seem harsh and out of context for me to turnt into energy healing now but "energetically healthy individuals can have energetically healthy relationships" for lack of better words to express what I'm trying to say. I do not mean to say that someone who is not completely healthy cannot have happy relationship, please don't "get" me for the chosen words.
For me, love is the pure, ultimate hapiness we can experience in this earthly presence.
As I see us as souls having flesh bodies it is ultimately important to find ways to open chakras, make this vital force flow freely which would make this "earthly experience" better for everyone we interact with, of course if this love for another human being is in the center of it all, not hate.
That would maybe require some outside help. And we all are slaves to this coding we have in our bodies and it produces our reactions, for better or worse.
Eh.

 

[Michal]

It is not hidden knowledge.

There is huge amount of confusion.
Just examples:
1. How we should take care of our and our spouses needs?
2. What are good limits / borders in marriage: when husband or wife are allowed to expect anything from other side?
3. Stereotypical: when she says no she means yes. I know it is just foolish saying but for many young men and women alike from broken families (my filter) there is a lot of confusing trivia about men/women relationship which does not bring any help to anyone.
4. Growing expectation from women for men to be of help in the house with cleaning, washing, babysitting, maternity leave etc - well it is not bad per se but - first of all men need to become a men. If not there would be a lot of confusion and mess.
5. Porn culture: growing illusion among men that there is some kind of "sexual heaven" that one may fulfill all desires with woman here and now without any knowledge of reality of real woman, of real man, real me. How to converse, how to see what to look for, and also very important to stop exciting instinct and waste energy on illusions and chasing somebody that does not exist. Sex is confused with love - obvious. As in general society at least in Poland in recent years is more detached from Church then concept of other love, eternal love, love with sacrifice is going to archeological concept. We have now TV, Netflix, Youtube, music that my tell us stories about love which is becoming more and more materialistic then ever (my feeling).
6. How we may support each other in becoming best versions of ourselves: how may I support my woman, and how my woman may support me - that is everyday life knowledge that would be so cool to understand, agree on before getting into relation.

It is not hidden knowledge but we are not taught that. We learn how to get the job (not even that properly) but things like marriage, upbringing, self education, self discipline, aims, morals, values are very often part of religious upbringing then standard education. One is really happy to have wise surrounding, wise parents, family who may talk at the table about marriage, relations, solving problems etc.
Women are expecting good man - but in my feeling many of good women do not realize how tremendous influence they have on what future generation of men they create. Similar can be said about men - what kind of power we have to create women that we so desire. But along our ways there is a lot of temptations of using this power for self benefit, self pleasure. By men and women alike.

So, maybe it is not so much hidden knowledge but it is a lot of skills and understanding required to be succesful in creating healthy, supporting ground for the couple and kids and by the same time understand what are consequences of not doing right things. I see many many trials and errors and in general I may say that it is not looking good.

 

[doubleback]

I mean, without understanding what is going on how can you love someone? Is it love then? Is it ever?
An ideal in Male-Female relationship is if they love each other and have passion for each other, if they love doing things together, but then comes real life.
In real life we are in (excuse me for saying that again) these fragile, coded, flesh bodies which are sometimes incapable of showing love and passion to shine through.
Again in my humble, or not so humble opinion, we need ways to heal our bodies from past experiences and from our hacked DNA coding which is making our experiences the way they are..
Then we could have much more healthy relationships which could be called ideal, more and more..
Eh.

 

[Jimmy Ssaz]

There is huge amount of confusion.
Just examples:
1. How we should take care of our and our spouses needs?
2. What are good limits / borders in marriage: when husband or wife are allowed to expect anything from other side?
3. Stereotypical: when she says no she means yes. I know it is just foolish saying but for many young men and women alike from broken families (my filter) there is a lot of confusing trivia about men/women relationship which does not bring any help to anyone.
4. Growing expectation from women for men to be of help in the house with cleaning, washing, babysitting, maternity leave etc - well it is not bad per se but - first of all men need to become a men. If not there would be a lot of confusion and mess.
5. Porn culture: growing illusion among men that there is some kind of "sexual heaven" that one may fulfill all desires with woman here and now without any knowledge of reality of real woman, of real man, real me. How to converse, how to see what to look for, and also very important to stop exciting instinct and waste energy on illusions and chasing somebody that does not exist. Sex is confused with love - obvious. As in general society at least in Poland in recent years is more detached from Church then concept of other love, eternal love, love with sacrifice is going to archeological concept. We have now TV, Netflix, Youtube, music that my tell us stories about love which is becoming more and more materialistic then ever (my feeling).
6. How we may support each other in becoming best versions of ourselves: how may I support my woman, and how my woman may support me - that is everyday life knowledge that would be so cool to understand, agree on before getting into relation.

It is not hidden knowledge but we are not taught that. We learn how to get the job (not even that properly) but things like marriage, upbringing, self education, self discipline, aims, morals, values are very often part of religious upbringing then standard education. One is really happy to have wise surrounding, wise parents, family who may talk at the table about marriage, relations, solving problems etc.
Women are expecting good man - but in my feeling many of good women do not realize how tremendous influence they have on what future generation of men they create. Similar can be said about men - what kind of power we have to create women that we so desire. But along our ways there is a lot of temptations of using this power for self benefit, self pleasure. By men and women alike.

So, maybe it is not so much hidden knowledge but it is a lot of skills and understanding required to be succesful in creating healthy, supporting ground for the couple and kids and by the same time understand what are consequences of not doing right things. I see many many trials and errors and in general I may say that it is not looking good.

What does a person do when training his dog? Well, how would we train the predator? The predator is mental. Does the predator like to be violent? Well take a bat go to a quiet place and break a bottle then if the predator is hungry and you are married don't cheat on your wife give the predator a fictitious woman like looking at a nude magazine...so you will see that you can train the mental alligator, velociraptors or crocodile so you make friends with the predator and not kill it completely because that's Buddha's business. Buddha could kill the predator...What I am trying to say is that you cannot have a dictionary of steps A,B,C etc to follow on "HOW TO BE A GOOD HUSBAND" let's accept that the predator is a predator and that's it, he will not become a good husband.

 

[mkrnhr]

There are problems nowadays in male-female relationships, due to many factors, mostly culturo-psychological. While it is always good to know about how things work, especially our own (and others') machine, and to identify the problems, one should also be very mindful of any proposed "cures" or recipes. Sometimes the cure is as bad as the illness.
It is interesting that most proposed "solutions" involve lists of procedures, very left-brained oriented: first daye: look 30° to the right, give her 30g of 72.5% chocolate, touch her hand for 3.2 seconds, etc. and very little about genuine being and growth, which is a more holistic process. This creates an arms race of deception: 10 steps to attract males, 10 steps to attract female, 15 steps to attract males, 20 steps to attract female... If you use a technique to attract a female, how to know whether she's a woman or merely a girl?
The other issue one can see is over-simplification, especially in language. This can be very "triggering". For instance, one sees the word "simp" a lot. What does it mean? Sending money to a unknown girl on tiktok because of an arrangement of RGB pixels on a phone screen is idiotic to the extreme we can all agree on that. Is proposing to pay for a diner (not on a first date, that's equally idiotic) "simping" as well? What's the limit? As with anything about life and human beings, nothing is simple and linear. It depends on the who, where, when, why, etc.
Is there an "ideal" male-female relationship? Hopefully not, because that would be very boring indeed. What would approach something akin to a good relationship would be a level-headed man with a level-headed woman who know how to sort out their common traits and interests, their different traits and interests, and the various events and issues of life, in a level-headed manner. Something like that I think.

 

[Michal]

Can anyone think of any other examples of where 'truths' about most women from a man's perspective are actually truths about most human beings from other human beings' perspective?

"You need to treat women with respect."
Of course - but in my upbringing I did not hear much opposite statement: You need to treat men with respect.

 

[Asa]

One thing that I've repeatedly noted in certain parts of various responses here, like the one above, is where the advice for men about "how to respond (etc.) to women" is obviously applicable in to ANYONE in responding or interacting with ANYONE.

Like Matai's comment above about his wife explicitly telling him that she prefers him to be direct about what he wants rather than being ambivalent, that's something that I think would be kind of annoying (at least mildly) to anyone.

Can anyone think of any other examples of where 'truths' about most women from a man's perspective are actually truths about most human beings from other human beings' perspective?

Absolutely. After using 'red-pill principles' to learn to be assertive with women, I realized that my problem was a lack of assertiveness/weakness in all areas of my life.

 

[Michal]

Is there an "ideal" male-female relationship? Hopefully not, because that would be very boring indeed.

If You say ideal relationship then this phrase evokes one solution. Like it is only one. But is there? At least I do not believe so.
I imagine, maybe wrongly - as this is not knowledge but more of working hypothesis that we are like instruments playing different sounds, different vibrations and with good tuning we may play nice, pleasant harmonies, that are resonating and having a lot of energy, a lot more then one instrument by its own tune. Well just intuition/ feeling. So this would be ideal - to be able to play together harmonic tunes that we and others would like to listen with pleasure for benefit of all. In contrast with tunes that are frightening, depressing, disharmonic resembling Yanis Xenakis works :).