Isn't suffering still an attachment to something

[tridean]

Hi All,
I wanted to ask this question as I am definitely not in a jovial state. I am feeling confused, miserable, questioning everything including 'what is the damn point to it all', but I will admit that my awareness has increased a lot, although I do have my reservations as to what exactly is doing the observations

Is it not, that suffering is an attachment to something or some outcome, and if we are attached to something, then would that not be part of the personality. If I am suffering because I am more confused, because I am more aware of my own programs, then what is it I am seeking, what is it that causes the suffering? What is it I am attached to? Or should I just suffer in peace?

 

[Joe]

I'd say yes, suffering is an attachment to something or some outcome, and is subjective and "useless" suffering. Suffering for something outside the self, or suffering for another, is more likely to be conscious suffering because it is more likely to be based on objective reality and therefore useful. Of course, subjective suffering usually has to be gone through in order to learn that it is ultimately useless and to ultimately let go of it

 

[tridean]

Hi Perceval,
I think I understand what you are saying.

I once read that a wise man realizes he has nothing to lose when he realizes he never had anything to begin with.

 

[PepperFritz]

Hi Tridean:

I think you will find the following Cass Glosssary entry helpful:

Suffering, Conscious and Mechanical

 

[tridean]

Thankyou.

Is it possible for someone to give me an example of 'objective suffering'?

Thanks
Dean

 

[Laura]

I never heard the term "objective suffering" only conscious and intentional suffering. However, if what is objective is what is based on empirical facts, then a person who is suffering from an illness or being tortured is certainly suffering objectively.

There is also the possibility that some of YOUR suffering is due to chemical imbalances in your body, from toxicity, etc, which could be a kind of "objective suffering." In that case you could stop the illness or stop the torture, so to say, by finding the cause of the suffering and changing the variables.

 

[TheSpoon]

I wanted to ask this question as I am definitely not in a jovial state.

I'm sorry to hear that Dingo, but it does sound like you might be in a helpful state for doing the Work.

if we are attached to something, then would that not be part of the personality.

As I see it, along with many other probably programmed responses, yes it would be part of your personality because it's how you react to the circumstances you find yourself in. But that's not to say that it has to stay that way.

What is it I am seeking, what is it that causes the suffering? What is it I am attached to? Or should I just suffer in peace?

I think suffering in peace would be a contradiction in terms. Accepting that you 'want' might be easier, bringing that want out into the open and also looking at what's behind that want. "What is it I am seeking?" is an excellent question. Something I've found useful to ask immediately afterwards is: "...and what would it mean if I found it, what would that allow?"

Cheers,
Spoon

 

[PepperFritz]

Did you mean to say "intentional suffering", or "conscious suffering" (vs. "mechanical suffering")?

 

[tridean]

Did you mean to say "intentional suffering", or "conscious suffering" (vs. "mechanical suffering")?

Yes, that was what I meant to ask. My apologies.

Up until recently, I always put these bouts of depression down to growing. Because of my understanding of how the comfort zones are chemically fed, I always saw it as breaking out of an old comfort zone and creating a newer one, usually that means overcoming some fears etc and striving for new goals in business and relationships, health etc. It's like a snake shedding it's skin. And as all addictions are painful to overcome, moving out of an old comfort zone into a new one would cause pain and suffering and depression of some sort.

But now that I have been studying more of the G material etc, it seems that all I am really doing is changing one skin for another, and that it doesn't matter how many skins I change into over time, it's the same thing. I can achieve a business goal, a health goal, a relationship goal that one is normally proud of but in the end, it is no different, they are all 'personality' goals AND I think it is this that has really grounded me here.

No more often in my life have I been asking myself 'what is the point', I am screaming to the god damn heavens for crying out loud. Why am I so important in this cosmos that I must have to do this challenge, learn all these lessons. Why, and for what? Am I really that important to the cosmos? And what does the cosmos want that it doesn't already have or know. Surely it knows everything..is it the experience?

I guess now after reading my last paragraph, that this is inward mechanical suffering, and really I am just feeling sorry for myself because I am fed up. I know if someone else wrote the same paragraph I'd probably see it that way.

Am I wrong to be constantly asking 'what is the point'? Is it NOT my right to do this, as it is seen as an inward consideration or 'want' to know

So yes, if someone could give me an example of conscious suffering/intentional suffering that would be appreciated.

Oh, and thank you to Laura, Spoon for your responses too

 

[PepperFritz]

Dingo:

I just wrote a rather extensive reply to your question, but unfortunately lost it via a computer crash just before I was about to post it. So it may take me some time to re-write it.

:)

 

[tridean]

Bummer. The number of times that has happened to me!!

 

[Oxajil]

Dingo:

I just wrote a rather extensive reply to your question, but unfortunately lost it via a computer crash just before I was about to post it. So it may take me some time to re-write it.

:)

fwiw PepperFritz,

Always when I write a long post, I copy/paste it and save it every 4/5 min or so in the Notepad. So if my computer would crash, I would still have a big part of it saved on my computer. And sometimes I first write my long post in Notepad or Word and then post it here.

 

[praying4goodness]

I too am suffering an almost intolerable degree. I have Morgellons Disease, and the manifestations are both physically painful and psyche-destroying. Everything I ever believed in has come into question; I even doubt my own sanity or even whether I am in fact still alive. The things that happen with this affliction are not even earthly....it is beyond what the most imaginative sci-fi writers can think up.
I still have the slightest attachment to my family or I'd be outta here...to where, I don't know...what is on the other side of death?

 

[T.C.]

Hi Dingo

But now that I have been studying more of the G material etc, it seems that all I am really doing is changing one skin for another, and that it doesn't matter how many skins I change into over time, it's the same thing. I can achieve a business goal, a health goal, a relationship goal that one is normally proud of but in the end, it is no different, they are all 'personality' goals AND I think it is this that has really grounded me here.

No more often in my life have I been asking myself 'what is the point', I am screaming to the god damn heavens for crying out loud. Why am I so important in this cosmos that I must have to do this challenge, learn all these lessons. Why, and for what? Am I really that important to the cosmos? And what does the cosmos want that it doesn't already have or know. Surely it knows everything..is it the experience?

Maybe this quote from Ark that Laura included in The Wave might help with the above?

Marseille, July 21, 1966
I am an energy transformer and a converter. That is the essence of my existence. That is my only possible goal. I can choose to serve this goal or not. I can serve only as an energy transformer. So it seems to not make much difference what I do. The result will be the same.

Or, I can serve as a channel. This is the choice between self-will and discipline. What "I" do, that is "I-Personality," is self-will. What acts through me is not self-will. Thus I wish to allow "that which can act through me" that is not self-will. For this end I need to eliminate self-will. But, God forbid, not to eliminate control!

So I wish to eliminate self-will. I wish to eliminate identification. Eliminating identification is most important. I wish to self-remember. I wish to plan to account for each and every hour. I wish to get rid of my hump. To cease being a camel.

How? Through elimination of identification. I want to listen. And to consider internally.

July 23, 1996
All this world is vanity. A vanity which will pass. The sky will pass, earth will pass, trees will pass, and people will pass too. Human aspirations will pass. Science will pass. All that keeps me together - will pass. A goal - at this level - does not exist. To set a goal - at this level - is to lie to oneself.

Humanity, truth, knowledge - these are empty words. Words surrounded by suffering which is meaningless. When I say I want to "help humanity" - these are empty words. When I say "science," "knowledge," "truth," "cognizance" - these are phantom words.

I am an energy tranformer, and I need to serve as such. And that is what I can do.

Where is the way out?

Nothing will remain of what I am doing. I might as well not exist at all. To think that I am "different?" That I am "exceptional?" That I can accomplish things that no one has succeeded in accomplishing - but I will because I will have the luck? Oh Lord, that it is possible to believe these vain illusions! I will die and nothing will be left. Nothing will succeed. Nothing will remain. No goal will be reached. Only one goal seems possible - that when the end is near, suffering will be so great that I will pass with relief.

Where is the way out? What purpose do humans serve? This is an experiment! What originates in me does not count. The only thing I can do is to allow something more powerful to speak through me. To allow something more knowledgeable to talk to me and through me. To allow something more powerful to act through me. To allow something more powerful to use me. I am just a shell, I am a machine. I am a device. I am a means to an end. I am a possibility for something more powerful to be in me and to act through me. I am a place that waits to be filled. I am a carriage without a driver and without a master. True, there is brain, there are body members, there are senses. But I am just a carriage. With no driver and no master. A personality that pretends to have rights. Which play the roles - sometimes of a driver, sometimes of a master - which says "I" contininously. Yet I am just a carriage which goes nowhere, and is doomed to crash in some ditch.

My aspirations, my ambitions, my wants - all these belong to an empty carriage and horse that is left without control. All that I am doing means nothing. All that I am doing is personality. And that comes from personality is ballast. All that comes from personality is a camel's hump.

How to pass through a needle's eye while carrying a hump? Personality must be left aside. Aspirations and whims - that is not me. Blessed are those who are meek. To be meek - that is what I need. Nonattachement. Eliminating unnecessary things. And also being conscious of the fact that EVERY MOMENT IS A BRANCHING OF THE UNIVERSE.

 

[PepperFritz]

But now that I have been studying more of the G material etc, it seems that all I am really doing is changing one skin for another, and that it doesn't matter how many skins I change into over time, it's the same thing. I can achieve a business goal, a health goal, a relationship goal that one is normally proud of but in the end, it is no different, they are all 'personality' goals AND I think it is this that has really grounded me here.

That's a very important and significant realization to come to.

No more often in my life have I been asking myself 'what is the point', I am screaming to the god damn heavens for crying out loud. Why am I so important in this cosmos that I must have to do this challenge, learn all these lessons. Why, and for what? ... Am I wrong to be constantly asking 'what is the point'? Is it NOT my right to do this, as it is seen as an inward consideration or 'want' to know

It is your "right" to desire and seek the meaning of your life and existence. But it is not your "right" to be given the answers to those questions on demand, without work, commitment, and lesson-learning on your part. The question is, are you prepared to commit yourself to discovering that meaning, no matter what it takes, no matter how much "suffering" it might entail? Are you prepared to give up your illusions and Subjectivity in order to discover truth and Objectivity?

It sounds as though you are close to reaching the point of Bankruptcy, which the Cass Glossary describes as follows:

["Bankruptcy"] is Mouravieff's term for a turning point in life where one constates that the external life can no longer provide meaning to life. This may or may not take the form of a crisis in external life but the essential idea is that formerly held inner 'A influence' values of worldly success, romance, learning, career and the like suffer an irrecoverable crash.

To truly seek on the 4th Way, one should have gone through bankruptcy, losing one's fascination with the transient values of the world. This bankruptcy will generally also involve disillusionment and disappointment with religion, various occultism or other spiritual pursuits one may have thus far had.

This bankruptcy may be a catalyst for the extra internal honesty which is needed for one to fundamentally recognize one's mechanicality, the anarchy of little I's and other such features of inner life. Such a fundamental admission is necessary for practically benefiting from the practice of the 4th Way.

I suspect that you are in a kind of "in between" state, where you have come to realize the illusory nature of the "personal goals" that you have worked so hard to attain, but either do not know how or are not yet prepared to commit to the next step. I suspect that your mechanical suffering arises from a desire to know the Truth, while also struggling to keep one foot anchored in the world of illusion. You want to know, but at the same time you don't want to know, because the answers are uncomfortable and difficult to face, and require sacrifice. Part of you is angry and despondent that you are no longer able to effectively buffer yourself from objective reality by preoccupying yourself with "personal goals". That part of you is "suffering". Such suffering is "mechanical" in that it is purely "reactional" in nature.

I would characterize intentional/conscious suffering as being pain or discomfort that one CHOOSES to experience, that one INTENTIONALLY pursues -- not simply for the sake of suffering (as though suffering were in and of itself some "purifying" or growth-promoting experience) -- but as a necessary means of learning to to see ourselves, others, and the world around us from the perspective of OBJECTIVITY , instead of through the distorting prism of our own SUBJECTIVITY -- i.e., our emotional issues, programs, mechanical behaviour, sacred cows, wishful thinking, etc.

...if someone could give me an example of conscious suffering/intentional suffering that would be appreciated.

Examples of conscious/intentional suffering:

• Committing yourself to practicing the kind of daily self-observation recommended by Gurdjieff in his 4th Way Teaching ("the Work").
  
• Consistent participation in a group such as this forum, where others also involved in the Work can provide feedback and act as an objective mirror.
  
• Practicing External Consideration, whereby you intentionally sublimate your own needs, preoccupations, and perspective in order to objectively perceive and respond to those in your immediate environment.
  
• Learning to strategically deal with and endure without complaint the Petty Tyrants in your life, in order to learn discipline, forbearance, and mastery of Self.
  
• Working to become psychologically healthy, by honestly examining your own family history and past patterns of thinking and behaviour, whether through formal psychotherapy or by reading the following "Big Four" psychology books recommended by the QFG: 1) The Myth of Sanity by Martha Stout; 2) The Narcissistic Family by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman & Robert M. Pressman; 3) Trapped in The Mirror by Elan Goulomb; 4) Unholy Hungers by Barbara Hort

I'm sure that other forum members can come up with more examples, as well as specific situations from their own experience in the Work.You may also come to a clearer understanding by reading the thread titled Intentional Sufferings, especially the response from Nomad and the post by Carpe in which he quotes extensively from the QFS book Essays on Life.

As explained by Gurdjieff: "Mechanical suffering is rooted in subjectivity and consideration for self. Intentional or conscious suffering is on the other hand rooted in internal struggle for objectivity.

I hope the above is helpful.