Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

Niall said:
And what point did he make with it?

He just posted it and said something along the lines of "the venerable PEW research center published this..." - I understood it in the context of his video, i.e. that under 'Islamophobia laws', this kind of research could become illegal? That sort of survey can trigger people both on the left and the right I guess, and so this might fit in to JP's criticism of 'trigger warnings' and 'safe spaces' and such. Not sure though to be honest.

Niall said:
Interesting. So they basically share majority support for conservatism/traditional values. The right in the US and elsewhere would be glad to hear this. Right?

Ha, maybe :) Then again, the mention of Sharia law, interestingly enough, can trigger conservatives into anti-Muslim frenzies I guess. They may read this survey and go like uh, the refugees want to establish sharia law in the West! See, they are so backwards! Well, the survey could be read that way, and there may be some truth to the notion that Muslim tradition/culture is backwards in a sense.

But yeah, all this Muslim issue is really a sadistic mind game, as Joe put it: the conservatives are made to fear Islam/terrorists, yet are forbidden to criticize it because of political correctness. They may even share some conservative values with the Muslims, yet fear the 'hordes'... Meanwhile, the liberals are supposed to love Muslims and welcome refugees, yet their values are totally opposed to traditional Muslim values. What a tangle, and it might be deliberate indeed.

Just some thoughts - I posted the survey not so much because of Peterson, but because of the discussion about Judeo-Christian values and Muslim values and which religion is the most backwards, so to speak, and I found some of the findings interesting.
 
luc said:
the conservatives are made to fear Islam/terrorists, yet are forbidden to criticize it because of political correctness. They may even share some conservative values with the Muslims, yet fear the 'hordes'...

And what effect does it have on people that are taught to fear something but then forbidden to say that it is fearful? It usually makes them angry and even more fearful.

luc said:
Meanwhile, the liberals are supposed to love Muslims and welcome refugees, yet their values are totally opposed to traditional Muslim values. What a tangle, and it might be deliberate indeed.

Not only that, but the "neo liberals" are effectively sanctioning continued Western military intervention in Muslim-majority nations because their idea of "social justice" demands that the poor oppressed Muslims in those countries (ruled by "brutal dictators" and "bad men", or so their governments and media say) should be given Western "freedom and democracy".

It sure sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy/reality creation/broad-scale set up to me. Whoever or whatever was behind it must think they're pretty damn smart.
 
Niall said:
, a mirror that would show them how 'Western values' co-created the very 'Islam' they judge.

Yeah, I think that's an important point/factor to keep in mind. I remember reading that before the invasion of Iraq, there were zero suicide bombings, but after the invasion there were countless of them. Blowing yourself up, and injuring or killing others, in the name of Islam is something terrorists support. This week alone there have been at least two suicide bomb attacks in Baghdad killing civilians!

Looking at Q89 of the report luc posted, on p.216, it's interesting to see that the majority of Muslims interviewed said that "suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets in order to defend Islam from its enemies" is "Never justified".

Also, from the report (p.142):

Just 1% of U.S. Muslims and a median of 3% of Muslims worldwide say suicide bombings and other violence against civilian targets are often justified, while 7% of U.S. Muslims and a global median of 8% of Muslims say such attacks are sometimes justified to defend Islam.

I think that number seems about right, yet the US and Europe is in fear. There was another (recent) report saying that people in the West think that the Muslim population is much larger in their country than is the case. The media is a very effective tool... it can make any group they want to look like the enemy and amplify it.

While the real threat pretty much resides in 'the Swamp' (or organisations such as the CIA)! The Moriartys mentioned how they were told by certain ex-officials/Army personnel (if I remember correctly) that there are bases all over the US where radicals are financed/trained/looked after, etc. Now that's a scary thought! That is, if it isn't already quite a shock that western governments are capable of 'ordering' buses full of terrorists and drop them in any country's backyard if they wanted to. With the help of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and others of course.

With regard to the motion, I think it would've been more effective for everyone involved if the motion instead asked for an investigation into the White Helmets terrorist organization that the Canadian government fully supports! That would be a good start, for everyone. Sadly, that's not going to happen. I agree that Khalid's motion will only divide the people further.

Joe said:
Not only that, but the "neo liberals" are effectively sanctioning continued Western military intervention in Muslim-majority nations because their idea of "social justice" demands that the poor oppressed Muslims in those countries (ruled by "brutal dictators" and "bad men", or so their governments and media say) should be given Western "freedom and democracy".

It sure sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy/reality creation/broad-scale set up to me. Whoever or whatever was behind it must think they're pretty damn smart.

It really does, it's all getting quite scary.
 
Joe said:
Not only that, but the "neo liberals" are effectively sanctioning continued Western military intervention in Muslim-majority nations because their idea of "social justice" demands that the poor oppressed Muslims in those countries (ruled by "brutal dictators" and "bad men", or so their governments and media say) should be given Western "freedom and democracy".

Yeah, that's kind of the 'female dictatorship' thing JP talks about. They manipulate the 'motherly compassion' of people high in agreeableness and make them hate everyone that threatens their 'offspring'. I mean, how did the leftist types react to the brutal murder of Gadhafi and Sadam? "Well, I'm against death penalty, but good riddance. They deserved it, the world is a better place now..." or something like that. The whole interventionist mindset is based on this I guess, at least outwardly. The hardcore neocons of course may just be psychopaths who enjoy a good killing, as in "we came, we saw, he died bwahaha". It's sick.
 
luc said:
Joe said:
Not only that, but the "neo liberals" are effectively sanctioning continued Western military intervention in Muslim-majority nations because their idea of "social justice" demands that the poor oppressed Muslims in those countries (ruled by "brutal dictators" and "bad men", or so their governments and media say) should be given Western "freedom and democracy".

Yeah, that's kind of the 'female dictatorship' thing JP talks about. They manipulate the 'motherly compassion' of people high in agreeableness and make them hate everyone that threatens their 'offspring'. I mean, how did the leftist types react to the brutal murder of Gadhafi and Sadam? "Well, I'm against death penalty, but good riddance. They deserved it, the world is a better place now..." or something like that. The whole interventionist mindset is based on this I guess, at least outwardly. The hardcore neocons of course may just be psychopaths who enjoy a good killing, as in "we came, we saw, he died bwahaha". It's sick.

There is also a willfull blindness in that publicized compassion that reveals a serious problem in perception if not more. Let's say they really care about Muslims or any other minoritized population in the US being offended by whatever. That's fine and cute to a certain sense. How about all the Muslims, men women and children, who are starved to death, tortured, killed, poisoned and bombed, because of the very saint elites they support and elevate to a status of saints, all in their name? It's not that these victims do not matter to these righteous liberals because they are far away on other continents, or out of sight so to speak. This willfull blindness extends also towards their own compatriots who suffer from neoliberalism and other ailments of life. They are selectively compassionate enough to maintain their own status, the status quo and how they feel about themselves, but almost never in the benefit of the real victims in any dire situations.
 
luc said:
Ha, maybe :) Then again, the mention of Sharia law, interestingly enough, can trigger conservatives into anti-Muslim frenzies I guess. They may read this survey and go like uh, the refugees want to establish sharia law in the West! See, they are so backwards! Well, the survey could be read that way, and there may be some truth to the notion that Muslim tradition/culture is backwards in a sense.

It's interesting that you say 'triggered by the term Sharia'.

When Westerners hear 'Sharia', they think of these guys:

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Sharia_europe.jpg


Sharia_law.jpg


These images are from tiny groups of protesters at mosques in western Europe that are notorious for providing a platform to radical clerics. Such images have been routinely shown by the media since 9-11, giving western audiences a mirage that grossly over-inflates the prevalence of belief in such ideas among Muslims in the West (and, by extension, back in Muslim lands). One of the first mosques such images began appearing out of was the Finsbury Mosque in London. You may remember this guy:

article_2634198_15301A22000005.jpg


His hands were blown off making explosives for 'the Bosnian rebels' back in the 90s. He then took up residence at Finsbury Mosque and essentially became - thanks to the media - 'The Face of Islam in Britain' around the time of 9-11. Years later, he was finally extradited to the US on terrorism charges, and what did he tell the court?...

That he was allowed to preach his version of 'sharia' because he was doing so on the payroll of British intelligence, ostensibly to 'keep an eye on the hotheads'. Yeah right! To whip them up into a fervor, more like.

So Sharia is a loaded term in the West. In ponerological terms, its original meaning has been replaced with something else. It's now associated, in the West, with terrorism, suicide bombings, beheadings, full veils and demented intolerance for 'our way of life'. But, as you can see from Muslims' views of such things in that survey, Sharia for them is clearly not associated with those things.

So what is it?

In a word, jurisprudence. It's the body of Islamic laws in majority-Muslim countries, drawing on the Koran, legal precedents, and jurists' legal opinions. It's their equivalent of the US Code - sort of; secular, 'man-made', state-issued law largely superseded Sharia in Muslim countries during the 20th century.

The primary difference is that Western jurisprudence is based on principles enshrined in constitutions that often, though not always, claim derivation from 'God'. This body of law is then added to by nominally secular politicians, and then applied and defined by nominally secular judges. Sharia, on the other hand, is explicitly based on principles 'derived from God' then added to/interpreted by jurists and judges that are simultaneously 'men of the cloak' and 'legal officers'. So when people say 'Islam is not like other religions; it's political', there is some truth to that. But then, as we've seen with this rhetoric of late about 'the Christian West', Christianity too is amenable to being politicized.

Anyway, in practice, there are regional, ethnic, and other cultural differences in the interpretations and applications of Sharia law. Practice of it in most Muslim countries - certainly the more secular, modernized ones - sees individuals deciding for themselves which parts of Sharia to follow or ignore, while Western-inspired, secular law governs most conduct by all citizens of the state. It is no coincidence that extreme, compulsory applications of Sharia proliferate in the poorest, most-bombed-out Muslim countries. Of course Sharia in these places will take vicious, totalitarian forms. It's likewise not surprising that extreme forms of it 'take' among Muslims in Western ghettos. Like all humans, the more terrified they are, the more they crave the 'security' of absolutism and safety in unity with 'their tribe'.

Having said all that, there has been a general 'Islamic revival' in Muslim countries in recent decades. The destruction of pan-Arab nationalist, secular ideas and movements thanks to Western interference in the Muslim world during the 20th century did its part to pave the way for monstrous religious radicalism. But it hasn't succeeded in breaking up an underlying, natural tendency toward integration and unity of 'the Muslim world' on some basis. This doesn't mean that most Muslims want to live backwards lives: they want the infrastructure and the goods and the medical care just like everyone else; it's just that they also want to 'do right by God'. When they are rejecting the excesses of Western liberalism, they're doing the same thing Americans did by voting in Trump last November. It remains to be seen how far they'd go in rejecting Western 'norms'. For example, will the very nation-states drawn up for them by Western powers in the 20th century survive this 'revival'?

When Bin Laden appeared and issued his call for a return of the 'Caliphate' and the 'Ummah', the West was able to portray this Islamic revival as coming from the minds of madmen intent on harming Western civilians, thereby justifying Western leaders' 'civilizing mission' of preventing such from happening by 'liberating' Muslims through 'birthing a New Middle East'. Ironically, this has only widened and deepened the appeal of 'traditional values' in the Muslim world.

I think what's really going on (with 9-11, the War on Terror, etc) is that the PTB are trying to control and retain influence over what is essentially a naturally-occurring process, one that need not involve a great 'clash of civilizations' - but which is because the West keeps interfering in that other civilization! It's the schizoidal, circular logic of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
In regards to what Islam, Jihad law etc, really is, and what the vast majority of muslims actually do and support, this short segment from the documentary of the german journalist Jürgen Todenhöfer, called inside IS, explains it.

He interviews Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, who studied islam for 30 years, and the Shaykh explains what islam really is at its core and terms like "Jihad" and also how it gets twisted by IS Terrorsists and the western society in general.

Skip forward to 35:19 (that part is in english):

[embed]<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x4ke5g1" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4ke5g1_inside-is-10-tage-im-inslamischen-staat_school" target="_blank">Inside IS 10 Tage im inslamischen Staat</a> <i>von <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/waffendokus" target="_blank">waffendokus</a></i>[/embed]
So from my very limited perspective in that field, it seems to me that islam, as well as the other world religions, has a core in it, (or parts of a teaching of higher values as with any other religion) that promotes higher values and decency. That is what the Shaykh explains OSIT.
 
Pashalis said:
So from my very limited perspective in that field, it seems to me that islam, as well as the other world religions, has a core in it, (or parts of a teaching of higher values as with any other religion) that promotes higher values and decency. That is what the Shaykh explains OSIT.

I would rather say that islam was used as a facade for promoting some esoteric ideas which otherwise would not have survived. Jihad in these "inner" terms actually means "struggle with own qualities", as far as I know.
 
Niall said:
His hands were blown off making explosives for 'the Bosnian rebels' back in the 90s. He then took up residence at Finsbury Mosque and essentially became - thanks to the media - 'The Face of Islam in Britain' around the time of 9-11. Years later, he was finally extradited to the US on terrorism charges, and what did he tell the court?...

He was allowed to preach his version of 'sharia' because he was doing so on the payroll of British intelligence, ostensibly to 'keep an eye on the hotheads'. Yeah right! To whip them up into a fervor, more like.

I saw Danish documentary "Behind The Veil Of The Mosques" few days ago on TV, which shows hidden camera material from eight different Danish mosques, where all the clerics seem to be like minded pathological fanatics, who very least advise Muslims against Danish laws while promoting their version of Sharia law. I thought it would be quite unlike if Danish intelligence operatives and/or other similar government forces wouldn't have a clue what's going on in there, yet they let it run this way. Maybe there's similar thing going on, where some mosques in Europe are being intentionally infiltrated with radicals connected and controlled by Western intelligence agencies. This would be quite expected way to throw flames into anti-Muslim agenda. It's also known that some mosques in Europe are financed by Qatar and Saudi Arabia:

_http://www.thelocal.dk/20140619/denmarks-first-real-mosque-opens-bankrolled-by-qatar
_http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-21/saudi-arabia-funding-extremist-islamist-groups-germany
 
Oxajil said:
Yeah, I think that's an important point/factor to keep in mind. I remember reading that before the invasion of Iraq, there were zero suicide bombings, but after the invasion there were countless of them. Blowing yourself up, and injuring or killing others, in the name of Islam is something terrorists support. This week alone there have been at least two suicide bomb attacks in Baghdad killing civilians!

Looking at Q89 of the report luc posted, on p.216, it's interesting to see that the majority of Muslims interviewed said that "suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets in order to defend Islam from its enemies" is "Never justified".

Also, from the report (p.142):

Just 1% of U.S. Muslims and a median of 3% of Muslims worldwide say suicide bombings and other violence against civilian targets are often justified, while 7% of U.S. Muslims and a global median of 8% of Muslims say such attacks are sometimes justified to defend Islam.

There's also the very high likelihood that many of the reported "suicide bombings" by so-called Muslim fanatics over the last 15 years were in fact not suicide bombings at all, but only set-up or made to look that way by western intelligence agencies (CIA, MI-6, Mossad), in order to reinforce the bomb-crazy jihadi narrative and further demonize the entire Muslim population as a group. If true, this would fit in with the findings of the poll referenced above.
 
On The Rebel.ca site (they sure have put up many videos) one of the hosts who was also featured on a recent Best of the Web articles (as a video); and I agree it was good of her highlighting the Quebec Mosque shooting, asking questions that needed to be asked, and than there was this from the same host _https://youtu.be/uuYj8IqviYo (December 24th, 2016 - note the date) which was a dissection of Islam. There was some truths in so far as historical dates and some things did happen, yet her telling was rather fanatical, made to arouse anger, osit. For instance, when she discussed Spain and the Crusades - the invading Islamic horde she was saying, she failed to point out the archeological and historical context of what Spain was then and what it became when Islam established some amazing cities in Spain, where people of different faith lived and interacted side by each. She reports only from the one point of view and the view withholds parts of the story. Anyway, this is the type of video intermixed with some more reasonable ones, and even a few good ones, that feeds fear in the conservative right, which divides off the left - there is no conversation possible i.e. it is just one side or the other side. The main host, Ezra Levant, well showed his methods much earlier in Alberta coming from the a very deep divide on the right. He has been very popular in the West and is again gaining ground, with the exception of Coastal and some of the interior of BC - he is the antithesis of the neoLiberal left.

Can't remember the name of the documentary on the crusades and Spain (it was feature somewhere in the forum), yet this is what came to mind when viewing the Islam rundown from the Rebel.

And the other thing noticed after paying some attention to the left news (up here it is the M103 private members bill and the squabble that has been created), is that both sides are being primed in opposite extremes, it is as if something is going to ignite in the middle of it all - a hysterical blame game will happen and the outcome will not be good. It was just a feeling, maybe not.
 
Altair said:
Pashalis said:
So from my very limited perspective in that field, it seems to me that islam, as well as the other world religions, has a core in it, (or parts of a teaching of higher values as with any other religion) that promotes higher values and decency. That is what the Shaykh explains OSIT.

I would rather say that islam was used as a facade for promoting some esoteric ideas which otherwise would not have survived. Jihad in these "inner" terms actually means "struggle with own qualities", as far as I know.

The "higher values" part of religions more or less agree with each other. Such values are prescriptions for certain actions. Peterson contends that "religion is an evolved system of behavior" and finds evidence to back up his claim. The laws which govern human society, including modern secular law, can trace its origin back to archaic roots. Since religion has traditionally been the vehicle which brings these archaic prescriptions to people in the last 2-3 thousand years, it is tempting to assume that the core of world religions is built out of such higher values. Whenever someone wants to show how great his/her religion is, these values are brought out, dusted off, polished and presented in an interpretive framework. All fine and dandy.

Yet, there are so many actions from believers (and non-believers) which blatantly contradict some of the prescriptive commands of their respective religion. One can find exceptions which justify such transgressions using a similar interpretive framework applied on the same religious books that gave out the higher value prescriptive commands. When one wants to demonize or belittle a religion, these are the parts which would be whipped out and paraded. This game has been played with impunity for a long time and in recent times the focus has been Islam.

Religion is a mixed bag with higher values intertwined with low level tribalism. For monotheistic religions insisting on "one God with his one (or last) prophet", the low level tribal element of in-group vs out-group serve to create an environment which is ripe for takeover by ponerogenic forces. Similar dynamics happen for various modern ideologies ending in "isms", which Peterson points out frequently. The difference, imo, is that in case of religion-centric ponerization, it is easier to justify actions through appeal to a transcendent authority which makes it more difficult to bring individual accountability and responsibility into the picture.
 
obyvatel said:
Religion is a mixed bag with higher values intertwined with low level tribalism. For monotheistic religions insisting on "one God with his one (or last) prophet", the low level tribal element of in-group vs out-group serve to create an environment which is ripe for takeover by ponerogenic forces. Similar dynamics happen for various modern ideologies ending in "isms", which Peterson points out frequently. The difference, imo, is that in case of religion-centric ponerization, it is easier to justify actions through appeal to a transcendent authority which makes it more difficult to bring individual accountability and responsibility into the picture.

Exactly. Sociological studies show that groups form mostly for political reasons - and that's a loaded term because it can mean a number of things - and their "beliefs" usually are generated around supporting that "political system". Only later are these beliefs, rites, rituals, etc, reinterpreted as being something "higher" and somehow "godly". Even though she's a slog to read, I recommend having a go with the works of Mary Douglas and some spinoffs from there.
 
Laura said:
obyvatel said:
Religion is a mixed bag with higher values intertwined with low level tribalism. For monotheistic religions insisting on "one God with his one (or last) prophet", the low level tribal element of in-group vs out-group serve to create an environment which is ripe for takeover by ponerogenic forces. Similar dynamics happen for various modern ideologies ending in "isms", which Peterson points out frequently. The difference, imo, is that in case of religion-centric ponerization, it is easier to justify actions through appeal to a transcendent authority which makes it more difficult to bring individual accountability and responsibility into the picture.

Exactly. Sociological studies show that groups form mostly for political reasons - and that's a loaded term because it can mean a number of things - and their "beliefs" usually are generated around supporting that "political system". Only later are these beliefs, rites, rituals, etc, reinterpreted as being something "higher" and somehow "godly". Even though she's a slog to read, I recommend having a go with the works of Mary Douglas and some spinoffs from there.

This has been on my mind for awhile. "Religion" these days in western culture usually is quite a trivial point of disagreement between people. Some people are Christians, some are Buddhists, Jewish, or Hindu but they all vote the same and believe in the same sort of human rights, and (usually) all believe in the official scientific worldview, UNLESS they are on different sides of the political spectrum, or have some more unique views (like those here). Religious differences (aside from minor theological differences nobody appears to care too strongly about) just seems to come down to differences in personal prayers, and different rituals for rights-of-passage, marriages, and funerals.

Religious differences were the sort of things people used to burn one another at the stake for. I see these kinds of belief differences and sociocultural rifts in the political sphere more than anything. Just see how much vitriolic hatred there is for anti-vaxxers, 9/11 truthers, global warming skeptics, and those opposed to immigration or taking in refugees. These seem to be the much more substantial and critical factors to worldview than, say, whether the Holy Spirit descends from the Father and Son or just from the Father (a dispute which helped to cause the original Roman Catholic - Orthodox schism). I think the only real major dispute within Christianity these days (at least in the west) is whether abortion is a form of infanticide or not, and Lord help you if you find yourself surrounded with the opposite form of company.

Looking at the western principle of the separation of Church and State from this view, the idea that the state shouldn't settle theological disputes should also relate to the settling of scientific and historical disputes as well. This means the government shouldn't interfere with things like health choices, people's choice of news media to consume, and the general public financing of the sciences (which just seems to entrench the status quo). These seem to be things we take for granted the government should take an active role in "for the greater good", but perhaps future histories will teach us these differences may lead to the same types of strife as any other religious conflict.
 
Timótheos said:
There's also the very high likelihood that many of the reported "suicide bombings" by so-called Muslim fanatics over the last 15 years were in fact not suicide bombings at all, but only set-up or made to look that way by western intelligence agencies (CIA, MI-6, Mossad), in order to reinforce the bomb-crazy jihadi narrative and further demonize the entire Muslim population as a group. If true, this would fit in with the findings of the poll referenced above.

I was discussing this with Joe the other day. The tragic thing is that over the course of these 15-some years, 'Muslim suicide bombers' did actually become reality. The propaganda naturally 'took' on their 'side' too.

But yes, it's no surprise that most Muslims find it as abhorrent as do Westerners. Note (from the Pew survey) that it's most 'ok' in Gaza: when you create a desperate situation, self-inflicted atrocities become appealing.
 
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