Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War
- Thread starter Laura
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Richs
The Cosmic Force
Alana said:
So, basically this guy is stating 2+2=5, and we are all supposed to miss that? It IS a fact that biology is not in any way a 'social construct', but is an objective reference which clearly identifies our reproductive organs? How could anyone with at least two neurons not understand that this is sheer nonsense?
It appears to lead to exactly the way things currently are.
I just might call you whatever you want because you would obviously be crazy, and nobody knows what a crazy person may do next.
BHelmet
The Living Force
PhoenixToEmber said:
You have hit on a huge issue. Kind of an expression and example of the STS/STO energy battle. Domination vs refusing domination and here we see it playing out. It doesn't matter how articulate, reasonable, insightful and logical the one side can be - the other side can always resort to ignoring the arguments and just shout louder and repeatedly their mantra while down-playing any potential negative outcome as a paranoid conspiracy theory. So creepy to see the archetypes that are seeking to dominate in full view. BUT, very instructive.
Thanks for the thread and the SoTT articles posted on Peterson, and am just super disgusted at what is going on, which is exactly a modified version of what Lobaczewski was urging for people to understand. On the one video, even the lawyer parsing out constitutional law, had not a clue of the bigger picture yet reminded the audience of being a 30 year scholar on the subject. I was also reminded as a type of parallel course, the vitriol expressed against the anti-anthropogenic climate change agenda; the deniers et al. This hysteria is beyond reasoning and felt for Jordon as he grappled to even find the right damn words to counter this pronoun poop. :(
BHelmet
The Living Force
sedenion said:
You have said a lot.
1. Linking Individualism to Liberalism is problematic. The problem is that the understanding of the meaning of liberal and conservative (in the US anyway) has been turned upside down in my lifetime in several ways. Add to this the problem of liberals calling themselves liberals but acting like something else entirely. I knew many conservatives who considered themselves rugged individualists back in the 60's. One of the fundamental positive aspects of individualism is free will. But certainly free will of one individual has to strike a balance with the free will of others.
2. I get your points about Lumieres, enlightenment but wasn't the real point there to overthrow the power of the churches and monarchies and pave the way for something else. (a new, different Boss) I would say Humanism is not intrinsically bad or good - it depends how it is used and understood.
3.. Regarding equal rights: I know I am repeating myself but, any concept or slogan can be used for many different purposes and applied different ways and redefined to suit various agendas. The key is the real agenda beneath the banner in the particular instance. Liberte, Egalite and Fraternite can can be a beautiful thing or a nightmare depending on how the terms are used; by whom; and for what reason.
Richard S said:
Worst: They invented words and expressions with their original meaning, and they given to the people these words with another meaning... like religion: you have an exoteric meaning (what you give to the people you want to rule) and the esoteric meaning (dedicated to initiates who rule the people). For example, as i said, "humanism" does not mean what we usualy think. "Human rights" have an hidden meaning (if everybody is equal, who can decide which rights humanity can have or not ? what can you conclude about who writen this "legal declaration" ?), etc... they introduced concepts like "progressivism" which are now deeply lying in our social culture, so you have to "progress" again and again, because it is good to go ahead...to which goal ? do you know ? they know:
"A well-organized country is one where the small number makes the great number work, is nourished by it, and governs it." (Voltaire, which was a Lumière, an Humanist, but not a philantrope nither an anarchist...)
BHelmet said:
This is where you have to...how do you say ? think with a hammer (strange expression) and ask good questions... liberalism is "freedom", but freedom of what, for who ? I can give you the historical answer : Originaly, that was the freedom to: Trade, Enslave, Make money (which was forbidden or frowned upon by monarchy and catholic church, like credits with interests, for example)... This is why "liberalism" is, in fact, linked to economical theory of "free trading". ( as i said in the previous post, there is exoteric and esoteric meaning to all this bunch of 18th century concepts )... make research about what is called "physiocrates" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiocracy ), these guys was responsible of the disaster that leaded France to revolution in 18th century (revolution by who ? not the people as they said)... you know, the history is repeating itself, but always with a larger scale :)
BHelmet said:
As i said in the previous post, "humanism" does not mean what is usually understood about (esoteric <-> exoteric). Yes, that come with the battle against church (to change the boss, as you said, also see above answer), you know have to watch who were the famous "humanists", their real values and goals... Notice: i am not saying that the church was perfect, but for example, if you look to the french "human rights declaration" ( http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b69480451/f1.highres ), you sure can see the famous eye-pyramid, an angel, the ouroboros, but also a Roman Lictor at the center: symbol of the Roman Empire (this symbol still the Republic symbol in France currently)... do you begin to get the "picture" ?
BHelmet said:
The first meaning of this "equality" concept was: Equality in rights... but this is also a way to deconstruct what we call the "verticality"... however, as i said; these guys were NOT anarchists at all.
Haven't finished going through all the material/links yet. Started reading this thread yesterday morning. Well, what can I add that hasn't been well pointed out already. I'll try.
I think, we've been dealing with these kinds of issues (and they are all connected in intricate ways) for a long time on the forum and SOTT. The ponerization process at play. It doesn't matter if they take over ideologies and words and their meanings or invent them from scratch, really. The end result of pathological types trying to ram down the throats of the vast majority of humanity their way of experiencing and seeing is the same. That's also the tell-tale sign of it being the macrosocial (or even more personal interactions have the same dynamics) process described in Political Ponerology.
Laura's work has covered this kind of thing in so many ways from so many angles. Rereading her writings always refreshes the important points and makes new connections to later work. "The Golden Age, Psychopathy, and the Sixth Extinction", among many others, is a case in point where she really lays out how ANYTHING can be taken over and twisted into a total caricature, and even to its total opposite. Everything is corrupted by this ponerizing system, science, religion, education, media - everything.
I don't know what more mind boggling, "humanitarian bombing" or this kind of hair raising nonsense. If we let the manipulators and social engineers have their way, and their hystericized engineered "products" too, these are the logical end results: people will argue that biology is a cultural construct. Again, the tell-tale sign is that they manipulate AND force these nonsensical "super good thinking" defined issues on everyone else. And this shows its STS signature.
One thing reasonable people have retained is they don't have this need to force others to think like them, to force them to use a certain vocabulary (even if it isn't nonsensical - why would someone want to force others, ALL others especially, to use certain prescribed words?), force others to associate with those they don't want, etc., etc. This forcing and fascistic approach is what gives away what's really going on.
I think one of the ways to protect ourselves from these processes (besides having a deep knowledge of Ponerology, and other important knowledge) is to keep working on ourselves and networking so as not to be so doctrinaire, identified/attached with/to ideologies, theories, etc., not to over-identify with insignificant parts of ourselves, etc. In short doing the Work and keeping an open mind, keeping in mind what we know and what we don't. In the end truth matters more than any theory or ideology. I think that's one of the most important defenses for psychological and spiritual hygiene against this kind of insinuation of insanity onto humanity at large.
Well the general public doesn't have that knowledge or put those efforts in (not that we have the whole banana yet either), but even they start getting some immunity under certain circumstances because of their natural human instinctive substratum/healthy instincts as Lobaczewskie put it. After a while of suffering, they react and start banding together without even knowing the terms of Political Ponerology, etc. They instinctively realize that there's an abnormal/pathological process going on and try to recover their normal way of experiencing and normal human relations, ignoring the artificially imposed divisions, prohibitions, promotions, etc. I think we saw a version of that with the latest presidential elections in the U.S.
People across the board who were suffering under the pathological rulers put aside their superficial differences and gave a push-back to the status quo and lying media. All that BS they were spewing didn't work. Blacks, Hispanics, women, especially, all voted for Trump in numbers that took the establishment by surprise. Their BS and manipulations didn't work.
Finally, although again, it's a working hypothesis, and we keep our minds open and adjust our understandings with new data, the only thing that fully explains all that goes on on this planet and in the lives of humanity is the hyperdimensional explanation - as humans, and especially psychopaths don't have that kind of control and multi-transgenerational outlook to set up some of these things that play out over centuries and millenia. Another interesting thing is the difference between biological evil as Lobaczewskie emphasized in the psychopaths and other pathological types and the moral evil, as the hyperdimensional STS forces (where they have a choice). The psychos are a lower level reflection of the higher forces, so the much more limitation, i.e. they can't change or make different choices but are the perfect tool of the hyperdimensional masters to keep the farm conditions just right for them, so to speak.
I think, we've been dealing with these kinds of issues (and they are all connected in intricate ways) for a long time on the forum and SOTT. The ponerization process at play. It doesn't matter if they take over ideologies and words and their meanings or invent them from scratch, really. The end result of pathological types trying to ram down the throats of the vast majority of humanity their way of experiencing and seeing is the same. That's also the tell-tale sign of it being the macrosocial (or even more personal interactions have the same dynamics) process described in Political Ponerology.
Laura's work has covered this kind of thing in so many ways from so many angles. Rereading her writings always refreshes the important points and makes new connections to later work. "The Golden Age, Psychopathy, and the Sixth Extinction", among many others, is a case in point where she really lays out how ANYTHING can be taken over and twisted into a total caricature, and even to its total opposite. Everything is corrupted by this ponerizing system, science, religion, education, media - everything.
I don't know what more mind boggling, "humanitarian bombing" or this kind of hair raising nonsense. If we let the manipulators and social engineers have their way, and their hystericized engineered "products" too, these are the logical end results: people will argue that biology is a cultural construct. Again, the tell-tale sign is that they manipulate AND force these nonsensical "super good thinking" defined issues on everyone else. And this shows its STS signature.
One thing reasonable people have retained is they don't have this need to force others to think like them, to force them to use a certain vocabulary (even if it isn't nonsensical - why would someone want to force others, ALL others especially, to use certain prescribed words?), force others to associate with those they don't want, etc., etc. This forcing and fascistic approach is what gives away what's really going on.
I think one of the ways to protect ourselves from these processes (besides having a deep knowledge of Ponerology, and other important knowledge) is to keep working on ourselves and networking so as not to be so doctrinaire, identified/attached with/to ideologies, theories, etc., not to over-identify with insignificant parts of ourselves, etc. In short doing the Work and keeping an open mind, keeping in mind what we know and what we don't. In the end truth matters more than any theory or ideology. I think that's one of the most important defenses for psychological and spiritual hygiene against this kind of insinuation of insanity onto humanity at large.
Well the general public doesn't have that knowledge or put those efforts in (not that we have the whole banana yet either), but even they start getting some immunity under certain circumstances because of their natural human instinctive substratum/healthy instincts as Lobaczewskie put it. After a while of suffering, they react and start banding together without even knowing the terms of Political Ponerology, etc. They instinctively realize that there's an abnormal/pathological process going on and try to recover their normal way of experiencing and normal human relations, ignoring the artificially imposed divisions, prohibitions, promotions, etc. I think we saw a version of that with the latest presidential elections in the U.S.
People across the board who were suffering under the pathological rulers put aside their superficial differences and gave a push-back to the status quo and lying media. All that BS they were spewing didn't work. Blacks, Hispanics, women, especially, all voted for Trump in numbers that took the establishment by surprise. Their BS and manipulations didn't work.
Finally, although again, it's a working hypothesis, and we keep our minds open and adjust our understandings with new data, the only thing that fully explains all that goes on on this planet and in the lives of humanity is the hyperdimensional explanation - as humans, and especially psychopaths don't have that kind of control and multi-transgenerational outlook to set up some of these things that play out over centuries and millenia. Another interesting thing is the difference between biological evil as Lobaczewskie emphasized in the psychopaths and other pathological types and the moral evil, as the hyperdimensional STS forces (where they have a choice). The psychos are a lower level reflection of the higher forces, so the much more limitation, i.e. they can't change or make different choices but are the perfect tool of the hyperdimensional masters to keep the farm conditions just right for them, so to speak.
Atreides said:
Wow! That is a real I opener right there. If the stuff he says in there is true (which I couldn't check yet, but seems reasonable), then I'm really suprised how throughout and complete the rewriting of history has been, in regards to the "democratic party". Even when take into account his apparent pro rebublican bias there, the stuff he presents is still suprising to me and I guess most people out there.
Dinesh D'Souza refers to his book and movie called "Hillary's America: The Secret History of the Democratic Party" as a source, in which he covered most of that stuff.
Sounds very interesting. Will watch the movie soon.
Thanks for sharing the work of Jordan Peterson! I watched the first video interview that was brought up and bits and pieces of the others. What really stands out to me thus far, is his long study of authoritarian regimes in the past (like Nazi germany, soviet union and China under Mao) and how what happened back then, seems to play out right now in front of our eyes and it seems in a larger scale.
I think his worry and determination to do something about it, stems from that research. It doesn't look good indeed, although I have to admit that I need to look into the subject more deeply, to get the "full horror of the situation".
We can see that trend pretty much everywhere in the west, enforced by so called "progressive liberals" and their followers. It almost looks like many people who so completely fall for it, display another variation of the "flat earth syndrome". A "create your own reality" sort of thing.
Interestingly russia seems to have decided a while ago, to not go follow that stick, by passing the infamous "homosexual propaganda laws". If you look closely what the laws actually say and what Putin and Co. have said about it, it is quite obvious that they want to protect especially their youth and children from "non traditional propaganda" in places like schools and so forth.
Paraphrasing Putin about that subject of homosexual, anti traditional propaganda, forced on the public : "leave the children alone!"
So Putin and Co. seem to naturally do the right thing, here as well.
I think his worry and determination to do something about it, stems from that research. It doesn't look good indeed, although I have to admit that I need to look into the subject more deeply, to get the "full horror of the situation".
We can see that trend pretty much everywhere in the west, enforced by so called "progressive liberals" and their followers. It almost looks like many people who so completely fall for it, display another variation of the "flat earth syndrome". A "create your own reality" sort of thing.
Interestingly russia seems to have decided a while ago, to not go follow that stick, by passing the infamous "homosexual propaganda laws". If you look closely what the laws actually say and what Putin and Co. have said about it, it is quite obvious that they want to protect especially their youth and children from "non traditional propaganda" in places like schools and so forth.
Paraphrasing Putin about that subject of homosexual, anti traditional propaganda, forced on the public : "leave the children alone!"
So Putin and Co. seem to naturally do the right thing, here as well.
The declaration of the human rights embodies the doctrine of the French Revolution. This revolution destroyed the established order based on the Church and the nobility and replaced it with a far worse creed based on materialism, nihilism and individualism. It was the beginning of the end and led to the pathetic state of our 'modern' society.
Although the French revolution spread the concept of secularism (which is just a politically correct word for the destruction of the religions and ultimately God), one can find the word 'holy' used once in the 17 articles of the declaration.
So what is so holy for the revolutionaries? Certainly not God, not even human, not even justice. The sole item that is considered as 'holy' is property:
Article 17: property being an inalienable and holy right...
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/Droit-francais/Constitution/Declaration-des-Droits-de-l-Homme-et-du-Citoyen-de-1789
The original version written in 1789 was amended in 1948 and the term 'holy' was removed from article 17.
Whew, what a revealing topic. Well, when gold is being refined/purified by heating the crucible (being melted down), the dross always rises to the top, where it's visible and accessible to be skimmed off and discarded.
Don't know if this is an appropriate comparison, but it seems that this pathology has reached the point in our society where it is finally being revealed in all of its ugliness and can be dealt with.
The hidden Liberal agenda is no longer hidden. Like all psychopathy, it loses much of it's predatorial power once it's revealed.
Don't know if this is an appropriate comparison, but it seems that this pathology has reached the point in our society where it is finally being revealed in all of its ugliness and can be dealt with.
The hidden Liberal agenda is no longer hidden. Like all psychopathy, it loses much of it's predatorial power once it's revealed.
The rewriting history was indeed one of the missions of the enlightenment and its subsequent revolution. The enlightenment was created in antagonism to what is now called the 'dark ages', the medieval times marked by 'obscurantism'. But who can really believe that the ones built the cathedral were ignorant starving slaves? In comparison what is the legacy of modern ages? Nuclear bombs? Modern art? Gender theory? Neo-conservatism?
In several respects life was better past then than it is now. It is a very difficult thing to accept because we have been indoctrinated to equate progress with material progress. Sure we have TVs and cars (when we can afford it), but what about more fundamental things like family, communities, art, joy, trust...?
The revolution eradicated God, then the industrial revolution made us venerate scientism and spread labour slavery, the XXth century distributed to the elite our collective resources and assets (hospital, schools, roads, energy,...) and made us debt slaves.
Since the end of the XXth century we witness repeated attempts to rip us from the little we have left: family (through the liberalization and merchandization of marriage and adoption), national identities (globalization and federalization), our very own identity (gender fluidity) and any sense of community (cult of differences spread by organized minorities).
Wow. I didn't realize how far this "gender identity and expression" thing has gone. I can understand that some very small percentage of population might identify with opposite sex they've born, perhaps due to past life experiences or some other factors, and they shouldn't be persecuted for that. But 50 different genders, how ridiculous is that!? Not to mention the zealous and vehement mindset these social justice warriors/left wing authoritarians have incorporated.
This passage from Political Ponerology describes quite well what we're seeing now, osit:
This passage from Political Ponerology describes quite well what we're seeing now, osit: