Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

bjorn said:
It's actually really cleverly though out, they turned one of the most successful human-right revolutions into a weapon, They made the word 'Anti-Racism' into a weapon for their own depraved desires.

"human-rights" was a weapon since the beginning... study the history and origin of what is called "liberalism", "human rights", etc... France and USA shares a lot of this history and origins (USA birth <-> French Revolution): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP3ggwPDVyc
 
When 20 years ago I took a few women's studies classes at the university, and I had come to accept (through what I read and understood at the time) that gender is a social construct, I did not know that it would lead to this! :jawdrop: To say I am dumbfounded is a great understatement. After I watched the videos posted here, yesterday and today, it led me to this discussion


where Jordan Peterson participates in The Agenda with Steve Paikin. And one of the persons present, who advocates for the pronouns and Bill-C16 is heard saying that "there are countless studies that show that biological sex is a social construct". Of course he doesn't cite the studies, due to time reasons as he says, but he should know, he is a lecturer on transgender studies!

I am really amazed at what I learned about this subject in just two days, so thank you all for sharing. It is very important information, and I am very glad Peterson is standing his ground and drawing a line on this issue. I can't help it, but if a singular person is standing in front of me and asks me to refer to him/her as "they", I will consider this person insane. And like "gender is a social construct" where would this lead to? If I see a singular person but I am bound by law to refer to him/her in plural, what does this do to my brain and my perception of reality? What other thing I will be forced to accept down the line?

And, since none of this nonsense of gender or biology (or even species classification according to some!) holds me hostage anymore, what happens if I woke up one morning and decided that I felt I was a non-binary, gender-fluid Siberian Tiger, who needs to be addressed as "Her Ferociousness"? Would it be a hate crime if someone referred to me as merely "she"? Would my fragile, endangered species state of being take such abuse? And what if I used my inherent tiger instincts to attack the person who injured me? Isn't it just my nature after all? Is this C-16 bill enough to protect my rights, or should I move to NYC where they have a longer and more encompassing list on pronoun usage?

:ohboy:
 
[quote author= Alana]And, since none of this nonsense of gender or biology (or even species classification according to some!) holds me hostage anymore, what happens if I woke up one morning and decided that I felt I was a non-binary, gender-fluid Siberian Tiger, who needs to be addressed as "Her Ferociousness"?[/quote]

:lol: Well, you wouldn't be alone, someone already beat you to it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat
C_2_maincontent_41895_largeimage.jpg


US Navy veteran Dennis Avner had at least 14 operations trying to morph himself into a feline, complete with whiskers, ears and a mechanical tail.

They included ops to split his top lip and make his ears pointed, silicone cheek and forehead implants, tooth filing and tattoos.



That's the disturbing thing with the Internet when you can look up that every crazy thought you ever had, somebody else already put into existence.

Allthough this transformation ended in a suicide, that's what those Liberals won't tell you. The overwhelming majority ultimately regret their body chance and even commit suicide. Just shows that pro-Liberals don't care about your well-being. There are a whole lot of deviant people behind the agenda.
 
Not that anyone should (or could) trust the NYT, but this is interesting in view of the thread topic:

The End of Identity Liberalism
_http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opinion/sunday/the-end-of-identity-liberalism.html?_r=0

By MARK LILLANOV. 18, 2016

It is a truism that America has become a more diverse country. It is also a beautiful thing to watch. Visitors from other countries, particularly those having trouble incorporating different ethnic groups and faiths, are amazed that we manage to pull it off. Not perfectly, of course, but certainly better than any European or Asian nation today. It’s an extraordinary success story.

But how should this diversity shape our politics? The standard liberal answer for nearly a generation now has been that we should become aware of and “celebrate” our differences. Which is a splendid principle of moral pedagogy — but disastrous as a foundation for democratic politics in our ideological age. In recent years American liberalism has slipped into a kind of moral panic about racial, gender and sexual identity that has distorted liberalism’s message and prevented it from becoming a unifying force capable of governing.

{Warning: Get out the sick bag...}

One of the many lessons of the recent presidential election campaign and its repugnant outcome is that the age of identity liberalism must be brought to an end. Hillary Clinton was at her best and most uplifting when she spoke about American interests in world affairs and how they relate to our understanding of democracy. But when it came to life at home, she tended on the campaign trail to lose that large vision and slip into the rhetoric of diversity, calling out explicitly to African-American, Latino, L.G.B.T. and women voters at every stop. This was a strategic mistake. If you are going to mention groups in America, you had better mention all of them. If you don’t, those left out will notice and feel excluded. Which, as the data show, was exactly what happened with the white working class and those with strong religious convictions. Fully two-thirds of white voters without college degrees voted for Donald Trump, as did over 80 percent of white evangelicals.

The moral energy surrounding identity has, of course, had many good effects. Affirmative action has reshaped and improved corporate life. Black Lives Matter has delivered a wake-up call to every American with a conscience. Hollywood’s efforts to normalize homosexuality in our popular culture helped to normalize it in American families and public life.

But the fixation on diversity in our schools and in the press has produced a generation of liberals and progressives narcissistically unaware of conditions outside their self-defined groups, and indifferent to the task of reaching out to Americans in every walk of life. At a very young age our children are being encouraged to talk about their individual identities, even before they have them. By the time they reach college many assume that diversity discourse exhausts political discourse, and have shockingly little to say about such perennial questions as class, war, the economy and the common good. In large part this is because of high school history curriculums, which anachronistically project the identity politics of today back onto the past, creating a distorted picture of the major forces and individuals that shaped our country. (The achievements of women’s rights movements, for instance, were real and important, but you cannot understand them if you do not first understand the founding fathers’ achievement in establishing a system of government based on the guarantee of rights.)
When young people arrive at college they are encouraged to keep this focus on themselves by student groups, faculty members and also administrators whose full-time job is to deal with — and heighten the significance of — “diversity issues.” Fox News and other conservative media outlets make great sport of mocking the “campus craziness” that surrounds such issues, and more often than not they are right to. Which only plays into the hands of populist demagogues who want to delegitimize learning in the eyes of those who have never set foot on a campus. How to explain to the average voter the supposed moral urgency of giving college students the right to choose the designated gender pronouns to be used when addressing them? How not to laugh along with those voters at the story of a University of Michigan prankster who wrote in “His Majesty”?

This campus-diversity consciousness has over the years filtered into the liberal media, and not subtly. Affirmative action for women and minorities at America’s newspapers and broadcasters has been an extraordinary social achievement — and has even changed, quite literally, the face of right-wing media, as journalists like Megyn Kelly and Laura Ingraham have gained prominence. But it also appears to have encouraged the assumption, especially among younger journalists and editors, that simply by focusing on identity they have done their jobs.

Recently I performed a little experiment during a sabbatical in France: For a full year I read only European publications, not American ones. My thought was to try seeing the world as European readers did. But it was far more instructive to return home and realize how the lens of identity has transformed American reporting in recent years. How often, for example, the laziest story in American journalism — about the “first X to do Y” — is told and retold. Fascination with the identity drama has even affected foreign reporting, which is in distressingly short supply. However interesting it may be to read, say, about the fate of transgender people in Egypt, it contributes nothing to educating Americans about the powerful political and religious currents that will determine Egypt’s future, and indirectly, our own. No major news outlet in Europe would think of adopting such a focus.

But it is at the level of electoral politics that identity liberalism has failed most spectacularly, as we have just seen. National politics in healthy periods is not about “difference,” it is about commonality. And it will be dominated by whoever best captures Americans’ imaginations about our shared destiny. Ronald Reagan did that very skillfully, whatever one may think of his vision. So did Bill Clinton, who took a page from Reagan’s playbook. He seized the Democratic Party away from its identity-conscious wing, concentrated his energies on domestic programs that would benefit everyone (like national health insurance) and defined America’s role in the post-1989 world. By remaining in office for two terms, he was then able to accomplish much for different groups in the Democratic coalition. Identity politics, by contrast, is largely expressive, not persuasive. Which is why it never wins elections — but can lose them.

The media’s newfound, almost anthropological, interest in the angry white male reveals as much about the state of our liberalism as it does about this much maligned, and previously ignored, figure. A convenient liberal interpretation of the recent presidential election would have it that Mr. Trump won in large part because he managed to transform economic disadvantage into racial rage — the “whitelash” thesis. This is convenient because it sanctions a conviction of moral superiority and allows liberals to ignore what those voters said were their overriding concerns. It also encourages the fantasy that the Republican right is doomed to demographic extinction in the long run — which means liberals have only to wait for the country to fall into their laps. The surprisingly high percentage of the Latino vote that went to Mr. Trump should remind us that the longer ethnic groups are here in this country, the more politically diverse they become.

Finally, the whitelash thesis is convenient because it absolves liberals of not recognizing how their own obsession with diversity has encouraged white, rural, religious Americans to think of themselves as a disadvantaged group whose identity is being threatened or ignored. Such people are not actually reacting against the reality of our diverse America (they tend, after all, to live in homogeneous areas of the country). But they are reacting against the omnipresent rhetoric of identity, which is what they mean by “political correctness.” Liberals should bear in mind that the first identity movement in American politics was the Ku Klux Klan, which still exists. Those who play the identity game should be prepared to lose it.

We need a post-identity liberalism, and it should draw from the past successes of pre-identity liberalism. Such a liberalism would concentrate on widening its base by appealing to Americans as Americans and emphasizing the issues that affect a vast majority of them. It would speak to the nation as a nation of citizens who are in this together and must help one another. As for narrower issues that are highly charged symbolically and can drive potential allies away, especially those touching on sexuality and religion, such a liberalism would work quietly, sensitively and with a proper sense of scale. (To paraphrase Bernie Sanders, America is sick and tired of hearing about liberals’ damn bathrooms.)

Teachers committed to such a liberalism would refocus attention on their main political responsibility in a democracy: to form committed citizens aware of their system of government and the major forces and events in our history. A post-identity liberalism would also emphasize that democracy is not only about rights; it also confers duties on its citizens, such as the duties to keep informed and vote. A post-identity liberal press would begin educating itself about parts of the country that have been ignored, and about what matters there, especially religion. And it would take seriously its responsibility to educate Americans about the major forces shaping world politics, especially their historical dimension.

Some years ago I was invited to a union convention in Florida to speak on a panel about Franklin D. Roosevelt’s famous Four Freedoms speech of 1941. The hall was full of representatives from local chapters — men, women, blacks, whites, Latinos. We began by singing the national anthem, and then sat down to listen to a recording of Roosevelt’s speech. As I looked out into the crowd, and saw the array of different faces, I was struck by how focused they were on what they shared. And listening to Roosevelt’s stirring voice as he invoked the freedom of speech, the freedom of worship, the freedom from want and the freedom from fear — freedoms that Roosevelt demanded for “everyone in the world” — I was reminded of what the real foundations of modern American liberalism are.

Mark Lilla, a professor of the humanities at Columbia and a visiting scholar at the Russell Sage Foundation, is the author, most recently, of “The Shipwrecked Mind: On Political Reaction.”
 
sedenion said:
bjorn said:
It's actually really cleverly though out, they turned one of the most successful human-right revolutions into a weapon, They made the word 'Anti-Racism' into a weapon for their own depraved desires.

"human-rights" was a weapon since the beginning... study the history and origin of what is called "liberalism", "human rights", etc... France and USA shares a lot of this history and origins (USA birth <-> French Revolution): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP3ggwPDVyc

Since the beginning? So correct me if I am wrong but you believe that Martin Luther King and the anti war movement who also fought for equal rights for black people was also part of this grand conspiracy?

I don't know what you mean with, since the beginning and to who it is referring to.
 
mkrnhr:

People are so isolated from reality you can convince them of anything. They will identify with it and defend it because they do not think. The most ironic feature of the so-called liberals is that they are authoritarians, an Orwellian inversion so obvious they cannot see it. Also, we can see the effects of the postmodernist doctrine that allows people to live in fantasy world (in addition to television and cell phones) where denial of reality is not only allowed but encouraged. One can see it as blatant destruction of individuals and society (for better control) but also a destruction of their psyche and opportunity for growth. It is by facing reality with its nice and not so nice aspects that we grow and form our individualities. These people, being individualistic in the sense of comfortable hedonism, have no individuality in the sense that they need an external protective womb, even if it is evil and perverted.

My bold area above reminded me of something I read years ago entitled, "Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars" in regards to creating artificial wombs as a construct for social engineering. At the time, this particular idea really made an impression. What is being discussed here certainly seems to apply. Some people are very intent on creating their own, protective wombs whatever the cost. Here are a few excerpts.
Asserts: This document is the doctrine adopted by the Policy Committee of the Bilderburg Group during its first known meeting in 1954.

Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars, An Introduction Programming Manual was uncovered
quite by accident on July 7, 1986 when an employee of Boeing Aircraft Co. purchased a
surplus IBM copier for scrap parts at a sale, and discovered inside details of a plan,
hatched in the embryonic days of the "Cold War" which called for control of the masses
through manipulation of industry, peoples' pastimes, education and political leanings. It called for a quiet revolution, putting brother against brother,
and diverting the public's attention from what is really going on.
**************************
When a silent weapon is applied gradually, the public adjusts/
adapts to its presence and
learns to tolerate its encroachment on their lives until the pressure (psychological via
economic) becomes too great and they crack up. (me:believing in lies) Therefore, the silent weapon is a type of
biological warfare. It attacks the vitality,
options, and mobility of the individuals of a society by knowing, understanding,
manipulating, and attacking their sources of natural and social energy, and their physical,
mental, and emotional strengths and weaknesses.

The Artificial Womb

From the time a person leaves its mother's womb, its every effort is directed towards
building, maintaining, and withdrawing into artificial wombs, various sorts of substitute
protective devices or shells.
The objective of these artificial wombs is to provide a stable environment for both stable
and unstable activity; to provide a shelter for
the evolutionary processes of growth and
maturity - i.e., survival; to provide security for freedom and to provide defensive
protection for offensive activity.
This is equally true of both the general public
and the elite. However,
there is a definite difference in the way each of these classes go about the solution of problems.
(my emphasis)

The Political Structure of a Nation - Dependency

The primary reason why the individual citizens of a country create a political structure is
a subconscious wish or desire to perpetuate their own dependency relationship of
childhood. Simply put, they want a human god to
eliminate all risk from their life, pat
them on the head, kiss their bruises, put a
chicken on every dinner
table, clothe their
bodies, tuck them into bed at night, and tell
them that everything will be alright when
they wake up in the morning.
This public demand is incredible, so the human god, the politician, meets incredibility
with incredibility by promising the world and delivering nothing. So who is the bigger
liar? the public? or
the "godfather"?
This public behavior is surrender born of fear, laziness, and expediency. It is the basis and social energy, and their physical,
mental, and emotional strengths and weaknesses

http://stopthecrime.net/docs/SILENT.pdf
 
Laura said:
But the fixation on diversity in our schools and in the press has produced a generation of liberals and progressives narcissistically unaware of conditions outside their self-defined groups, and indifferent to the task of reaching out to Americans in every walk of life. At a very young age our children are being encouraged to talk about their individual identities

Individualism is a key feature of the "liberalism", what we currently observe is not a deviation, but the original project, which is now near the final goal. It is necessary to include this in the history, before the USA independencie... before what is called "The Enlightenment" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment ), then you have to understand the root philosophy of people that called themselves as "the Lumières" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumi%C3%A8res )... i think everybody can, right now, do some simple connections... Enlightenment -> Lumière -> Illum.... i let you finish... (Dan Brown is far, far away from the real plot)

"Lumières" philosophy key features:
- Idividualism
- "humanism", or "the human above all" ( maybe even above god: leads to atheism, link with "secularism", destruction of spirituality and "transcendant" concepts, materialism, etc. )
- Eradication of the past (what is before is bad, or, do not exist, never existed: Much facilited for USA, nation created ex-nihilo... also see what "Daesh" currently does with historical artefacts, what USA does during Irak war... destruction of cultures [they need a new "empty one"]).
- A "new humanity" must be recreated with new pure basis (link to Eradication of the past, see transhumanism [goal of gender theory, and others things] )

There is also other aspect... precisely, think about the "humain rights" (pure juridical way of thinking, link with another well known religion (with 10 laws), also watch this carefully: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b69480451/f1.highres )... One question: Who give "Rights" to Who ?

Enjoy (sorry if i mentioned thing already known and discussed here).
 
bjorn said:
Since the beginning? So correct me if I am wrong but you believe that Martin Luther King and the anti war movement who also fought for equal rights for black people was also part of this grand conspiracy?

No... but maybe the good thing used to incite you(us) to swallow the poison... you have to go later in the past... ( i am not saying that black and whith must not have same rights, however, this black/white war is a very specific context of USA... in Europe, the context was: slavery abolition, no matter the "color", so we did not known this kind of "war". )

bjorn said:
I don't know what you mean with, since the beginning and to who it is referring to.

The beginning is way before Martin Luther King... this is a long transgenerational history.
 
bjorn said:
Allthough this transformation ended in a suicide, that's what those Liberals won't tell you. The overwhelming majority ultimately regret their body chance and even commit suicide. Just shows that pro-Liberals don't care about your well-being. There are a whole lot of deviant people behind the agenda.

Exactly. Psychopathy in all its forms is behind this agenda, I think. They feel non-human and they want to impose their reality on the rest of us so that they can create a world where all their perverted behaviors are "normalized" and they don't have to pretend under a mask of sanity anymore, to keep themselves out of the scrutiny of law and/or social norms/values and to keep enjoying whatever they consider to be their "rights" and "privileges". They don't give a hoot about the rest of the people, other than keeping them as willing source of "food".

"On the wall in his office at Hillary Clinton's Brooklyn headquarters, campaign chairman John Podesta has an oil painting on loan from his lobbyist brother, who is an avid art collector. The image shows two men hunched over a dining room table, bearing knives and forks. On the table lays a man in a suit, who looks vaguely like Podesta. "It's better to be the guy with the fork," Podesta quips to his colleagues, if they ask about the image, "than the guy on the table." Progressive liberal values: Tony Podesta's creepy taste in art, the creepy people he hangs out with, and Pizzagate
 
In following this thread, i found this (google translate from french's article):

For Roger Lichtenberg Simon, a political writer, novelist and Hollywood scriptwriter, "moral narcissism" is the claimed conviction to work for the good of others and the world. It is expressed in the title of the book "I Know Best". It is the fact of being persuaded to know better than others what is good for them and to want to impose it on them. Motivated by a generous sense of social justice, it manifests itself in an eternal will to do good ... And if the intention is good, the act that it engenders becomes unassailable. The end justifies the means said the Bolsheviks. The problem is that, as the proverb says, hell is paved with good intentions. And precisely, the "moral narcissists" lead us straight to this hell.

"Moral narcissism" is only the last avatar of "politically correct" and "single thought", the two pillars of the left consciousness. On the one hand, a codified speech making freedom of expression a farce. On the other hand, the unshakeable conviction that the "human rights" (the English expression of "human rights" being fortuitously devoid of the sexist connotation of its French equivalent) are the ultimate culmination of the evolution of And constitute a philosophy of life with a universal vocation
.

In short, "moral narcissism" is only the last name given to the dictatorship of thought established by the good consciences of left for half a century. It has the particularity of reducing a person to his ideas. Not to his acts. To wish for the happiness of humanity makes of oneself good. Pretending not to worry will turn you into a pariah.

Its followers are legion in Washington, where they haunt the corridors, and especially the surroundings, of the Congress. They lead American universities and major media outlets. We also meet them in Hollywood. They are headed by Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, but they also recognize themselves in Hollywood stars like Leonardo di Caprio and Susan Sarandon, the committed filmmaker Michael Moore, or the journalist Sidney Blumenthal ...

Moral narcissism affects all aspects of political and cultural debate in the United States (and by extension, in the West): from global warming to fighting the Islamic state through race relations, immigration and Bearing arms.

To support his analysis R.L. Simons revisits, among other things, the subject of global warming. Particularly emblematic

Because there can be no more generous and nobler objective than to save the planet and humanity, moral narcissism naturally asserts that it is necessary to fight by all means against this warming, even if its reality Is questionable, its origin undetermined and its consequences largely unknown. Here, indeed, is a phenomenon which has never been scientifically demonstrated; A phenomenon whose main data are "projections", not "observed facts"; A phenomenon whose consequences stem from the sphere of speculation; But above all here is a phenomenon that has been generally accepted and against which it is no longer possible to express oneself except to suffer the collective opprobrium.

Global warming is the subject of a consensus which accepts no opposition. Challenging it is tantamount to expressing disdain for the welfare of mankind and exposes you to being put at bay. In fact, according to R.L. Simon, during the last two decades, which saw the emergence of this consensus, we have witnessed two revealing semantic shifts. At first, those who challenged the reality of the phenomenon were qualified in the media as "climate-skeptics". Today they are called in English the "climate-deniers", that is to say the "negationists of the climate". This puts them in the same category as the neo-Nazis denying the Holocaust! At the same time, and faced with the multiplication of phenomena beyond a simple rise in temperature, the press began to speak of "climate change", without specifying the nature of the change ). How moral narcissism has the double faculty of killing debate and abstracting from facts. Again, only intentions matter.

The issue of climate is the survival of the human species, there can be no more important question. Everyone applauds Leonardo di Caprio when he travels the world to denounce the harmful effects of CO2 emissions. Even if, doing it on board his private jet, not an airline, he himself contributes to increase these emissions ... The actor and "eco-warrior" is himself a polluter, but what does it matter, it's the thought that counts. Nobody finds fault either when the President of the United States, Barack Obama, and all the candidates for his succession (except Donald Trump, ndla) affirm as one man that global warming is the most important challenge of politics ... Although the climate has not yet caused any casualties, but the wars in the Middle East, Africa and even in the heart of Europe make hundreds or even thousands of them every day ...

R.L Simon also discusses the treatment of Islam by moral narcissism. He particularly questions the absence of media and academic debate around the Muslim religion, whereas the events of the last 20 years and the emergence of acts of atrocious barbarism on the part of the Islamic State, On the contrary, justify a thorough study. But here, in the name of the struggle against "Islamophobia" the proponents of "moral narcissism" prevent the question from being addressed. President Barack Obama himself refuses to speak of "Islamic terrorism" but summons on "extremist violence" (it was in February 2015) where he chastises Christians for the crusades of the year ... What holds Both of dubious moral equivalence and of historical non-sense.

But whatever ! Nobody holds him back. How could this be possible? Barack Obama is the personification of triumphant moral narcissism. His will to change the world and the simple fact of saying "it is possible" (Yes We Can) were enough to make him the leader of this generation. For, once again, only intentions matter. In 2008, he personified "Hope", with a capital but unspecified as to the nature of this hope. It was also "the flattering reflection of this generation". Many Americans (and many others across the continent) liked the image he sent back to them, unlike a Bush or a Romney. On the evening of his election written R.L. Simon "Narcissus was on stage and in the room".

Eight years later, Narcisse took wrinkles and gray hair. But his convictions have never faltered. Even though events have repeatedly demonstrated the American president's mistakes - his support for the Muslim Brotherhood and Mohamed Morsi in foreign policy and the difficulties of his health reform in domestic politics - he himself has not changed his Iota positions. An inflexibility that partly explains the sterility of his two mandates. But it is the characteristic of moral narcissism to be persuaded to know better than others. "I know best" _By Gérald Olivier
http://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/avez-aime-politiquement-correct-allez-adorer-narcissisme-moral-gerald-olivier-2807598.html


https://www.amazon.fr/Know-Best-Narcissism-Destroying-Republic/dp/1594038058#reader_1594038058
 
[quote author= sedenion]The beginning is way before Martin Luther King... this is a long transgenerational history.[/quote]

Yes, but some movements where actually progressive and liberating.

But the Liberal of today isn't about either of those. They just hijacked those slogans for their own deviant purposes.



I think that the extreme-right these days only serves to push the extreme-left forwards. Liberals need someone to proof how dangerous 'intolerant' people are and the extreme right has worn out anyway. This unknown territory of social engineering pushed by Liberals is really creative if you think about it.

Although, in many European countries the extreme-right still has potential I think.
 
Not sure if you guys and gals (and otherkin - lol) saw this debate, which happened yesterday, but it's worth watching.


https://youtu.be/JDvj6DQd93o

I think Peterson very articulately presented his case, but it seems the other speakers were determined to miss his points entirely.
 
bjorn said:
[quote author= sedenion]The beginning is way before Martin Luther King... this is a long transgenerational history.

Yes, but some movements where actually progressive and liberating.

[/quote]

Certain groups of people like to take credit for anything that they can spin as "liberal" or "progressive" or "left." Liberals and the left have defined themselves as the side/party/group for "freedom" and "democracy." They have largely been the interpreters of recent history, and magically can spin any good thing into their work, and any bad thing into the work of "Snowball."

Just remember, Jim Crow laws where Democrat's laws, in the Democrat's south. Isn't it so amazing how they had a change of heart! Why it's just like magic!

It may be worth watching: https://youtu.be/-SStdawtYFA?t=14m35s
 
bjorn said:
But the Liberal of today isn't about either of those. They just hijacked those slogans for their own deviant purposes.

This is where you are partially wrong... the worm was in the fruit, since the beginning... You think the "original good philosophy" is hijacked, but, in fact, the "hijacking" IS this philosophy (which is presented as: the good, the savior, the light who enlight the darkness...), but, to understand, to see "how" this work(ed), you have to go in the past, to understand who really were these guys (and their american equivalents): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumi%C3%A8res (there is a links with banks, globalism [free trade], capitalism, etc... all is linked)

Maybe this is more easy for us in france (i can't speak for other european country), because we have an history before these guy takes the power (they want to erase it, but, it is not so easy), so we can verify (after investigating outside of the propaganda) that, before these guys arrived as saviors of the human freedom, equality and so on... WE WERE NOT IN THE DARKNESS as they said (that was not the paradise, but, that was not the hell)... however, they destroyed what worked (to make an appeal to revolution), and, since they are here and gain influence (this is not linear), we slowly go into a darker and darker world.
 
I really wanted to go to the talk but didn't actually start catching up on this thread until late morning yesterday. It's too bad, because watching some of his videos and interviews, he really has a lot of integrity and isn't backing down from this whatsoever. I've seen a number of videos from the rally he held earlier and it really shows how reasonable a lot of the students are that in support of Pederson, and that they are willing to have a discussion, but these far-left wing extremists showing up are basically looking to create total anarchy at these events.

On top of the initial sick feeling that I've gotten from all of this, which reminded me of Don Juan saying that during the time of the Spanish conquest, Seers had an endless supply of petty tyrants to temper their spirit too, seemed reminiscent of what Pederson is going through right now. I found a few videos from Pederson's rally that centers in on the left-wing LGBTQAEIOU sometimes Y extremists, and having people like that who undoubtedly seem severely character disturbed, mentally unstable/unhinged, and emotionally explosive with no ability to filter themselves, does seem like it can get out of hand very quickly, and who knows where it will all lead. I kind of pictured gangs of them roaming around with cell phones, videotaping and forcing other people to denounce their "white privilege" and "respect their rights" to not being referred to as him/her... or else. Not so different than the brown shirts. Although maybe that's just my imagination gone wild.

In this video you can see how they go about disrupting things, and some of them even get violent. And even though they are offered a platform to speak out at the rally, all of them refuse to do so.


https://youtu.be/-4R0bWC41g4

I believe the "woman" with the white t-shirt talking on the mic at the beginning is the same person in a previous video that Timotheos posted about that confronted Pederson after the rally. But you can basically see they all parrot the same rhetoric constantly. And you can see other students who aren't part of it are actually willing to be supportive, but these extremists are so nasty in their behaviour and sense of entitlement.


https://youtu.be/M9_cAtfyhec
 
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