Kantek

[Cosmos]

Was chatting with a friend about Kantek today, and a question came up that I haven't been able to find an answer to, at least on this thread.

So, Kantek was supposedly Planet V, and the asteroid belt is the remaining fragments. Further, the planet, while smaller than Earth, was large enough to maintain an atmosphere; indeed there's speculation in this thread that the atmosphere might have been thicker than Earth's, enabling a comparable surface temperature despite it having been further from the Sun.

The one big problem is that there isn't enough material in the asteroid belt to make a planet. The total mass is about 3% of the Moon's mass; that's nowhere near enough to retain an atmosphere, let alone a dense atmosphere. So, if the asteroid belt is in fact composed of the fragments of Kantek, there's a lot of missing material.

Where did it go?

I only see 2 possibilities:

1. Most of it was ejected from the solar system. Given that the gravitational binding energy of a planet - the amount of energy necessary to blow it up - is really immense, the extra amount required to send most of the mass onto an interstellar trajectory isn't inconceivable, I guess. It's the difference between godlike and power and godlike + 1.

2. The missing material is Mars, and the different orbits of Mars and the asteroid belt bodies are a consequence of orbital changes induced in one or both during Venus' entry into the solar system. In this scenario there was no Planet V, but the asteroids are indeed the fragments of a destroyed planet.

Years ago, my mother told me that she figured caucasians had come from Mars. She said she hadn't read this anywhere, that it just sort of occurred to her and made sense at a deep level. Looking at all the science fiction stories regarding ancient, advanced civilizations on Mars, and the overwhelming fascination with going back to Mars - all cultural products of Europeans, and having a cultural resonance that seems to go well beyond any rational basis - I really can't help but wonder if the fascination with Mars might not be a deep genetic memory.

Interested to hear other perspectives on this question.

Well, according to the C's Kantek was destroyed about 79 thousand years ago, which could be more than enough time to disperse most of the original mass of the planet especially if there were many smaller chunks. Also, if we consider the statement of the C's (that every 3600 years a comet cluster sweeps through the solar system) there is a good chance that much of the original mass has now been dispersed or has slammed into other planets. And that is probably just one cycle of many other Comet/Asteroid intrusions/cycles that go through the solar system and potentially effected the situation. According to wiki, the Asteroid belt mass is actually approximately 4% of the Moon. There is also the possibility that they haven't spotted large sections of the objects contained in that belt yet.

 

[psychegram]

Well, according to the C's Kantek was destroyed about 79 thousand years ago, which could be more than enough time to disperse most of the original mass of the planet especially if there were many smaller chunks. Also, if we consider the statement of the C's (that every 3600 years a comet cluster sweeps through the solar system) there is a good chance that much of the original mass has now been dispersed or has slammed into other planets. And that is probably just one cycle of many other Comet/Asteroid intrusions/cycles that go through the solar system and potentially effected the situation. According to wiki, the Asteroid belt mass is actually approximately 4% of the Moon. There is also the possibility that they haven't spotted large sections of the objects contained in that belt yet.

Hmm.

Well, there are only two (known) ways to remove debris: photon pressure and direct collision.

Light pressure only works on extremely fine dust grains; that's for instance how we know that the zodiacal dust in the inner solar system must be from a relatively recent giant comet (see Clube & Napier).

Direct collision is right out, because the distance between astronomical objects is vast compared to their size. A comet cluster sweeping through the inner system would have no effect on bodies in the asteroid belt because the distances between them is so large - there might be one or two collisions, but not enough to remove 90% of the mass.

As to missing material, by now we've identified all of the largest bodies. There are almost certainly smaller bodies that haven't been detected, but it doesn't seem possible that this could contain 90% of the mass. Going back to light pressure, one might posit that the really small dust grains were removed that way - but then, most of the mass post-explosion would need to have been in the form of dust. Not sure how plausible that is.

 

[SOTTREADER]

One thing I'd double check is the 3% or 4% assertion. How true is this? Do other scientists have a different view etc

I'd think that's the first thing to nail down for sure before attempting to understand where the missing material might be.

 

[psychegram]

One thing I'd double check is the 3% or 4% assertion. How true is this? Do other scientists have a different view etc

I'd think that's the first thing to nail down for sure before attempting to understand where the missing material might be.

That's pretty well nailed down. It's basically just a matter of counting up all the asteroid belt bodies, then adding up their total masses taking into account 1) their sizes, 2) their compositions. The population of the asteroid belt is very well characterized, both in terms of the number of bodies, how big they are, and what they're made of (composition is admittedly a bit more uncertain, but there are really only a few possibilities, e.g. nickel-iron vs carbonaceous chondrite, and these can be inferred from their appearance).

tl;dr while there's obviously going to be some uncertainty on the mass of the asteroid belt, it would be absolutely shocking if that uncertainty was enough to make up the difference with a planet.

 

[SOTTREADER]

That's pretty well nailed down. It's basically just a matter of counting up all the asteroid belt bodies, then adding up their total masses taking into account 1) their sizes, 2) their compositions. The population of the asteroid belt is very well characterized, both in terms of the number of bodies, how big they are, and what they're made of (composition is admittedly a bit more uncertain, but there are really only a few possibilities, e.g. nickel-iron vs carbonaceous chondrite, and these can be inferred from their appearance).

tl;dr while there's obviously going to be some uncertainty on the mass of the asteroid belt, it would be absolutely shocking if that uncertainty was enough to make up the difference with a planet.

This may be an interesting article it doesn't necessarily answer the questions..

The asteroid belt might actually be a giant a cosmic refugee camp

It used to be thought the amount of mass in the asteroid belt dropped by 99 per cent in the solar system’s first 100 million years

www.wired.co.uk

Looks like it's a bit of a mystery.

Added: Some say the material in the belt may have been ejected there from the surrounding planets.

As it stands it looks like Mars may be the best candidate for Kantek but it'd suggest some catastrophic event on Mars which should be detectable on the surface. I only know of the scarring on its surface but don't think this is catastrophic enough?

 

[psychegram]

This may be an interesting article it doesn't necessarily answer the questions..

The asteroid belt might actually be a giant a cosmic refugee camp

It used to be thought the amount of mass in the asteroid belt dropped by 99 per cent in the solar system’s first 100 million years

www.wired.co.uk

Looks like it's a bit of a mystery.

Added: Some say the material in the belt may have been ejected there from the surrounding planets.

As it stands it looks like Mars may be the best candidate for Kantek but it'd suggest some catastrophic event on Mars which should be detectable on the surface. I only know of the scarring on its surface but don't think this is catastrophic enough?

That article only indicates uncertainty over the initial composition of the asteroid belt, under the conventional scenario in which it formed with the solar system; it indicates that rather than the material having been depleted, it might instead have started empty and then filled up as gravitational interactions kicked the solar system's leftovers into the space between Mars and Jupiter. Point being, it has nothing to do with how much material is currently there ... which isn't surprising as this is fairly well known.

I agree that the most plausible scenario is that Mars was Kantek. If the Valle Marineris was indeed caused by a cosmic lightning bolt, as @Pierre has suggested, then the amount of material in the belt could well be consistent with some considerable fraction of Mars' surface having been ejected into space. While still incredible, I find this scenario more believable than an entire planet being reduced to rubble.

The binding energy of the Earth is about 10^32 J, which is similar to the energy output of the Sun over about 1 week. If it were to explode relatively instantaneously, say over 1 second, that would release 10^32 W or about 600,000 times the power output of the Sun ... only concentrated in the volume of a planet. That's extremely energetic - it's hard to see anything in the solar system surviving such an event.

 

[seek10]

Here is my speculation based on what C's said. I always wondered how this asteroid belt circles like a good boy in line, if it exploded near to earth.
1994-10-18

Q: (L) Was there ever a time in history when Kantek, Martek, and Earth were all three occupied by sentient races which communicated with one another?

A: No.

Q: (L) Was there ever a time in history when all three planets were occupied simultaneously?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Why are there different races?

A: Many reasons. Experimental creations. Partly.

1994-10-22

Q: (L) The planet that was destroyed between Jupiter and Mars that we now know as the asteroid belt, you said was destroyed by psychic energy. Could you clarify that?

A: The occupants of that planet, many of whom are your soul ancestors, simply decided to develop a service to self atmosphere that was so super charged in the negative that it actually caused their home planet to be destroyed because the energy levels became so intense crashing back upon themselves that they actually destroyed the atomic structure of the planet, causing it to physically explode.

Q: (L) Was this done technologically or was it strictly done by mind power?

A: They are one and the same.

Q: (L) Did they do something like drop bombs?

A: No, no. This was done by psychic energy. There has been in a transient fashion of reality the danger of the same thing happening on your planet. Although we are quite confident it won't because we see all reality, past present and future. But, you must understand also that even in our particular perspective point, all reality is nonetheless fluid. There are still many choices of realities and possible futures and possible pasts and possible presents. But we feel fairly confident that that particular fate will not befall your planet, although it did the one then known as Kantek.

This makes me wonder, this explosion happened in another reality and small part of the physical mass leaked into this reality or something like that?

When asked why we can't see the dark star which is supposed to be near the solar system, C's seems to be hinting that it is in another reality and we can't see it unless we go there or it comes to this reality.

Again, there are some assumptions in the this conversation.
- Assuming We know how to measure weight of all the particle and doing it correctly.
- Assuming destruction of atomic structure means physical mass is still valid. But, we don't know what it means "collapse of atomic structure". In our current understanding it is related to atom bombs where physical articles converted to energy.

If it exploded in our reality, I doubt how many planets ( like mars and earth) near it survive? Even if we assume Earth and Mars is on the other side of sun of than that of Kantek's side, explosion will be too huge for the planet to survive.

1994-09-30

Q: (L) Is this cluster of comets the remains of a planet?

A: No.

 

[Ursus Minor]

1994-10-22

This makes me wonder, this explosion happened in another reality and small part of the physical mass leaked into this reality or something like that?

When asked why we can't see the dark star which is supposed to be near the solar system, C's seems to be hinting that it is in another reality and we can't see it unless we go there or it comes to this reality.

Writing about 'another reality' do you mean Kantek would have been in 4D?

When a large number of Kantekkians were brought to 3D Earth then, how did they survive as we know that 4D-STS cannot maintain themselves in 3D for long?

If the dark star would be in 4D then we would have a bi-density binary star system which I don't believe can exist.

To my recollection the dark star cannot be seen because it is so dark and still somewhat far off.

If it exploded in our reality, I doubt how many planets ( like mars and earth) near it survive? Even if we assume Earth and Mars is on the other side of sun of than that of Kantek's side, explosion will be too huge for the planet to survive.

Very interesting question.

 

[Neil]

I think a lot of our legends of psychic abilities and people who had magical powers relate to Kantek, which was a fairly prosaic 3D planet in our reality. Modern humanity is really a degenerate, devolved, and psychically crippled bestial race of dust kickers and scavengers living on the trash heap of once great civilizations. Some psychic abilities seem to function by superseding the forces of nature; much fascination has been taken in telekinetic phenomenon which seem to negate the force of gravity. It stands to reason that gravity is not the only force of nature which can be supplanted, especially since they all seem to be unified at some level. I think what happened on Kantek is that the psychic energy essentially nullified the Strong Nuclear Force and the atoms just sort of came unraveled. The sudden loss of nuclear binding energy scrambled the subatomic particles by causing them to scatter, which basically turned the planet into a giant particle accelerator, with uncontrollable nuclear chain reactions turning much of the mass of the planet into exotic particles or pure energy which radiated out into space. Evidently this was a haphazard, chaotic, and somewhat random process which was not homogeneous, otherwise the entire planet would've essentially vanished and there would be no debris except maybe for some hydrogen atoms.

 

[seek10]

Writing about 'another reality' do you mean Kantek would have been in 4D?

I will try my best. Dimensions are parallel worlds ( 3D or 4D) and Densities are vertical ( 1 to 7) . My current understanding is Realities can be complex combination of dimensions or single dimension ( single density or multiple densities) depending on consciousness of the person or technology or evolution. C's mentioned parallel, perpendicular reality, intersection of realities etc. I could be wrong though.

When a large number of Kantekkians were brought to 3D Earth then, how did they survive as we know that 4D-STS cannot maintain themselves in 3D for long?

C's mentioned this process. they were airlifted to 4D and dropped off in 3D. Dropping off may not need 4D folks to come down to 3D. They can use grays. May be people are unconscious or conscious , Willing or unwilling , veiled or not. They seems to do all the time type of this.w.r.t Neandarthals, folks at Mohenjo-Daro and Native Americans from Asia to America's etc.

To my recollection the dark star cannot be seen because it is so dark and still somewhat far off.

Very interesting question.

True, that is also possible. But this time all are riding wave, which the reality border between 3D and 4D w.r.t to us. I will have to find the actual quote.

 

[hlat]

Even mainstream science acknowledges that mass and energy are convertible, eg Einstein's E=mc2. So it doesn't mean much that there's not much mass observable now in the asteroid belt, when the mass of Kantek in its destruction could've been converted to energy.

 

[psychegram]

Even mainstream science acknowledges that mass and energy are convertible, eg Einstein's E=mc2. So it doesn't mean much that there's not much mass observable now in the asteroid belt, when the mass of Kantek in its destruction could've been converted to energy.

The c^2 part of that equation is pretty important. Direct conversion of 90% of the mass of an entire planet to energy wouldn't just destroy the planet. It would destroy the solar system, including the Sun, and probably every star in the solar neighborhood. It's far more energy than is released in a supernova.

 

[Joe]

The c^2 part of that equation is pretty important. Direct conversion of 90% of the mass of an entire planet to energy wouldn't just destroy the planet. It would destroy the solar system, including the Sun, and probably every star in the solar neighborhood. It's far more energy than is released in a supernova.

That's a good question for the next session.

 

[Neil]

It would've been a peculiar explosion to be sure, with the SNF nullified, fission and fusion would be impossible and solid matter could not exist. If gluons were also nullified then even protons and neutrons would decay into something and all you're left with is photons, electrons and neutrinos. Neutrinos are considered to be the most abundant elementary particles in the universe yet are paradoxically about the hardest to detect and understand. Neutrinos are very ethereal particles without much interaction with the physical world, so if you ended up with a bunch of them maybe the energy more or less disappears from our perspective? How particles would decay if the SNF were eliminated is getting into some fringe CERN-type stuff that is beyond my physics knowledge, however the Cassiopaeans' comments about the atomic structure of the planet being destroyed led me to believe that the physical constants of the universe were radically altered in such a way that normal matter was no longer stable, which led me to ponder about the four forces of the cosmos.

 

[psychegram]

It would've been a peculiar explosion to be sure, with the SNF nullified, fission and fusion would be impossible and solid matter could not exist. If gluons were also nullified then even protons and neutrons would decay into something and all you're left with is photons, electrons and neutrinos. Neutrinos are considered to be the most abundant elementary particles in the universe yet are paradoxically about the hardest to detect and understand. Neutrinos are very ethereal particles without much interaction with the physical world, so if you ended up with a bunch of them maybe the energy more or less disappears from our perspective? How particles would decay if the SNF were eliminated is getting into some fringe CERN-type stuff that is beyond my physics knowledge, however the Cassiopaeans' comments about the atomic structure of the planet being destroyed led me to believe that the physical constants of the universe were radically altered in such a way that normal matter was no longer stable, which led me to ponder about the four forces of the cosmos.

Well, during a supernova a considerable fraction of the core mass is converted to neutrinos. While they are indeed very weakly interacting, the matter-energy conversion equivalence means that those neutrinos, in the quantity produced, still pack enough of a punch to detonate the star. Point being that if 90% of the mass of a planet were directly converted to neutrinos you'd still be having a really bad day if you were sharing a solar system with it.