Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions
- Thread starter Laura
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Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
What is AA?
The diarrhea seems to be getting much better but still hasn't cleared completely, we will see what happens - its only been about a week or so that I am in ketosis.
well I went from approximately 70g a day long term ( with exception of Christmas period when I sinned in moderation) to 0 cold turkey, and transition was pretty smooth, astonishing in fact - so much so that I am now convinced that even those little carbs I was getting ( mostly in occasional fruits) were causing all the troubles i was experiencing ( especially low energy, mood swings and some other weird symptoms I was experiencing). Possibly the culprit was also mascarpone cheese to which I got addicted at one point.Megan said:
What is AA?
The diarrhea seems to be getting much better but still hasn't cleared completely, we will see what happens - its only been about a week or so that I am in ketosis.
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Yeah. I didn't really know what to say. Maybe we can figure something out here.
The problem sounds similar to that with FODMAP plant foods, except this seems to be more of a full-blown allergy. Actually, some of the FODMAP reactions I have had resembled a full-blown allergic reaction in the gut, so maybe they were. Mine were time-delayed, though, by 1 1/2 to 3 days depending on transit time.
I say that because the carbohydrate in question appears to be a FODMAP, an oligosaccharide. FODMAP reactions can go away under some circumstances, from what I have read and from what I am experiencing as I experiment with it, but I don't know if this particular one can or not.
I suspect that all these FODMAP problems have something to do with gut bacteria, and that establishing healthy, controlled fermentation in the colon may help. A plant-free ketogenic diet may not be a good idea in that case, although the diet can still be extremely low in carbs and it can produce high ketone levels -- it's a matter of picking the right plant foods.
When the reaction comes so soon, however, I am not sure what do to. It could involve a form of SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth), perhaps, and that might be something to test for but I don't really know. The 3-6 hour delay may point to the small intestine. There may be an underlying immune/inflammation issue, such as from heavy metal exposure (something I am considering for myself), or there may be a genetic defect that creates a vulnerability. Lots of questions; few answers.
Laura said:
Yeah. I didn't really know what to say. Maybe we can figure something out here.
The problem sounds similar to that with FODMAP plant foods, except this seems to be more of a full-blown allergy. Actually, some of the FODMAP reactions I have had resembled a full-blown allergic reaction in the gut, so maybe they were. Mine were time-delayed, though, by 1 1/2 to 3 days depending on transit time.
I say that because the carbohydrate in question appears to be a FODMAP, an oligosaccharide. FODMAP reactions can go away under some circumstances, from what I have read and from what I am experiencing as I experiment with it, but I don't know if this particular one can or not.
I suspect that all these FODMAP problems have something to do with gut bacteria, and that establishing healthy, controlled fermentation in the colon may help. A plant-free ketogenic diet may not be a good idea in that case, although the diet can still be extremely low in carbs and it can produce high ketone levels -- it's a matter of picking the right plant foods.
When the reaction comes so soon, however, I am not sure what do to. It could involve a form of SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth), perhaps, and that might be something to test for but I don't really know. The 3-6 hour delay may point to the small intestine. There may be an underlying immune/inflammation issue, such as from heavy metal exposure (something I am considering for myself), or there may be a genetic defect that creates a vulnerability. Lots of questions; few answers.
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Having diarrhea is smooth? I didn't run into that problem until I tried to drop down to zero carbs too quickly.
You could be describing FODMAP sensitivities. I gather that they are fairly common. The indigestible saccharides, which should be going to feed beneficial bacteria in the colon so they can make useful things for you, can feed other things as well. With fruit, there is also a possibility of feeding pathogenic microbes with fructose, and that can occur in different places along the GI tract (I am still trying to understand a lot of this myself).
With FODMAPs, the carbs are not available to you directly (although they do show on nutritional labeling -- hence the idea of "net carbs" from subtracting them out) because you have no means to use them, but your gut bacteria can make use of them. Eliminating all carbs can help, but it can also cause major gut problems in some people.
Small amounts of directly-digestible carbs should be fine as long as they don't feed pathogenic bacteria. Your body should be able to use the glucose to help fuel digestion to and deal properly with any minor amount of fructose. If you consume too many carbs, though, it is likely to lower your ketone levels, which is not what we are looking for here.
I have had to restrict FODMAPs to small amounts of certain ones, and eliminate fructose totally, and now I am not having any soft stool/diarrhea episodes. Something is still working itself out (I hope) in there, however, because I have intermittent minor constipation (no dry stool or anything like that).
AA = Acetoacetic Acid (or acetoacetate), the stuff that turns your ketostix purple.
H.E. said:
Having diarrhea is smooth? I didn't run into that problem until I tried to drop down to zero carbs too quickly.
You could be describing FODMAP sensitivities. I gather that they are fairly common. The indigestible saccharides, which should be going to feed beneficial bacteria in the colon so they can make useful things for you, can feed other things as well. With fruit, there is also a possibility of feeding pathogenic microbes with fructose, and that can occur in different places along the GI tract (I am still trying to understand a lot of this myself).
With FODMAPs, the carbs are not available to you directly (although they do show on nutritional labeling -- hence the idea of "net carbs" from subtracting them out) because you have no means to use them, but your gut bacteria can make use of them. Eliminating all carbs can help, but it can also cause major gut problems in some people.
Small amounts of directly-digestible carbs should be fine as long as they don't feed pathogenic bacteria. Your body should be able to use the glucose to help fuel digestion to and deal properly with any minor amount of fructose. If you consume too many carbs, though, it is likely to lower your ketone levels, which is not what we are looking for here.
I have had to restrict FODMAPs to small amounts of certain ones, and eliminate fructose totally, and now I am not having any soft stool/diarrhea episodes. Something is still working itself out (I hope) in there, however, because I have intermittent minor constipation (no dry stool or anything like that).
HE said:
AA = Acetoacetic Acid (or acetoacetate), the stuff that turns your ketostix purple.
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I should mention that I also have a strong appetite for cheese, and that it is the worst of the FODMAP/allergic reactions for me, taking weeks to recover. Cow, goat, raw, pasteurized, hard, soft -- it doesn't matter. It's all evil as far as my gut is concerned (don't ask how I know that).
Good quality cheeses contain nutrients that may be in short supply in other foods, and many paleo types do eat it, but if you have zero tolerance for it, you just have to avoid it totally and look for the nutrients elsewhere.
I should mention that I also have a strong appetite for cheese, and that it is the worst of the FODMAP/allergic reactions for me, taking weeks to recover. Cow, goat, raw, pasteurized, hard, soft -- it doesn't matter. It's all evil as far as my gut is concerned (don't ask how I know that).
Good quality cheeses contain nutrients that may be in short supply in other foods, and many paleo types do eat it, but if you have zero tolerance for it, you just have to avoid it totally and look for the nutrients elsewhere.
Foxx
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I'm really not sure if there's a cure or what it is. Some people seem to be suggesting that it may go away over time (I think the friend who also tested positive for it was told that it might go away after 7 years of either not eating mammal meat or not being bitten by more ticks, or both), but I'm not holding my breath.
My other thought is that, if I'm not mistaken, a lot of people have allergies that go away after healing a leaky gut, so perhaps my gut still has some leaks. I've been wheat free for over two years I think, soy free for probably about the same length of time, the last grain I was eating was buckwheat and gave that up about a year and a half ago and the only dairy I've eaten in a long time (6 years?) is butter and ghee--I didn't mess with the heavy cream. I've been protein restricted ketogenic for about a year. I do still get mild acne, mostly on my buttocks and upper thighs with some on my face and back sometimes. I've had facial eczema that still persisted even after being keto, though I think that might be improving now, along with dandruff. These make me think of one or both of liver issues or leaky gut, but I'm not sure why it would still be leaking--I was doing beef bone broth for a while, too. When I got the allergy testing done, I also tested pretty solidly allergic to dust mites.
The only thing that might have made me not been gluten free for any of this time was using a microwave, as Psyche brought up that possibility. I look quite carefully for it, so I don't think I've gotten any exposure from anywhere else.
I've been taking quercetin and nettles recently, which a naturopath recommended, to make the cells that release histamine less sensitive to releasing it. In case there's a liver issue, I've also been taking curcumin dissolved in fat (taking it in pill form doesn't seem to work very well, I think, so I emptied the pills into warm/hot fat and mixed it in). I've been taking some duck or chicken broth as well since testing the mammal meat hypothesis, but not every day yet.
I'll try and get in touch with the Doctor researching this because he's not very far from me.
Thanks LQB!
Laura said:
I'm really not sure if there's a cure or what it is. Some people seem to be suggesting that it may go away over time (I think the friend who also tested positive for it was told that it might go away after 7 years of either not eating mammal meat or not being bitten by more ticks, or both), but I'm not holding my breath.
My other thought is that, if I'm not mistaken, a lot of people have allergies that go away after healing a leaky gut, so perhaps my gut still has some leaks. I've been wheat free for over two years I think, soy free for probably about the same length of time, the last grain I was eating was buckwheat and gave that up about a year and a half ago and the only dairy I've eaten in a long time (6 years?) is butter and ghee--I didn't mess with the heavy cream. I've been protein restricted ketogenic for about a year. I do still get mild acne, mostly on my buttocks and upper thighs with some on my face and back sometimes. I've had facial eczema that still persisted even after being keto, though I think that might be improving now, along with dandruff. These make me think of one or both of liver issues or leaky gut, but I'm not sure why it would still be leaking--I was doing beef bone broth for a while, too. When I got the allergy testing done, I also tested pretty solidly allergic to dust mites.
The only thing that might have made me not been gluten free for any of this time was using a microwave, as Psyche brought up that possibility. I look quite carefully for it, so I don't think I've gotten any exposure from anywhere else.
I've been taking quercetin and nettles recently, which a naturopath recommended, to make the cells that release histamine less sensitive to releasing it. In case there's a liver issue, I've also been taking curcumin dissolved in fat (taking it in pill form doesn't seem to work very well, I think, so I emptied the pills into warm/hot fat and mixed it in). I've been taking some duck or chicken broth as well since testing the mammal meat hypothesis, but not every day yet.
I'll try and get in touch with the Doctor researching this because he's not very far from me.
LQB said:
Thanks LQB!
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
True. And I tried cream over Christmas and was very, very sorry. It acted in my system like burning acid. It was terrible. And then there was the projectile vomiting... in short, I ruined my Christmas night!
anart said:
True. And I tried cream over Christmas and was very, very sorry. It acted in my system like burning acid. It was terrible. And then there was the projectile vomiting... in short, I ruined my Christmas night!
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I have to say I didn't fully understand your point about the FODMAP's.
I understand many people here run into the same problem which sorted itself out. Therefore I am not too worried about it as I am definitely seeing a lot improvement.Megan said:
I have to say I didn't fully understand your point about the FODMAP's.
I wanted to be sure this is what you meant - I thought your question was odd after I stated I am in ketosis for about 10 days and the urine stick is deep purple.Megan said:
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
True. Cheese in the paleo community is something that is so much in demand that nobody much seems to want to talk about why you wouldn't want it unless you have an overt reaction to it.
My point is that 'wanting' cheese could signal a nutrient deficiency, and if that is the case then any nutrients in question need to be obtained some other way. The pattern that I experience does not appear to be an addiction pattern -- I don't want more and more, or experience withdrawal symptoms -- but it might be a deficiency pattern. Unfortunately, I don't know what is missing.
I have juggled things a bit, adding a few fermentables to what I eat, and I am not noticing any "attraction" to cheese right now, so perhaps I solved the problem without ever knowing exactly what it was.
The difficulty that I have had with cheese is that my housemate usually has goat cheese in plain view in the fridge -- otherwise I would never have any kind of cheese in the house at all. I will try negotiating with her to keep it out of sight, the same way she wanted me to keep raw meat out of sight, and that may take care of that.
She has other junk, by the way, but cheese is the only item that I found myself wanting, so I suspect it was something my body was looking for in the nutrients and it wasn't just fat.
anart said:
True. Cheese in the paleo community is something that is so much in demand that nobody much seems to want to talk about why you wouldn't want it unless you have an overt reaction to it.
My point is that 'wanting' cheese could signal a nutrient deficiency, and if that is the case then any nutrients in question need to be obtained some other way. The pattern that I experience does not appear to be an addiction pattern -- I don't want more and more, or experience withdrawal symptoms -- but it might be a deficiency pattern. Unfortunately, I don't know what is missing.
I have juggled things a bit, adding a few fermentables to what I eat, and I am not noticing any "attraction" to cheese right now, so perhaps I solved the problem without ever knowing exactly what it was.
The difficulty that I have had with cheese is that my housemate usually has goat cheese in plain view in the fridge -- otherwise I would never have any kind of cheese in the house at all. I will try negotiating with her to keep it out of sight, the same way she wanted me to keep raw meat out of sight, and that may take care of that.
She has other junk, by the way, but cheese is the only item that I found myself wanting, so I suspect it was something my body was looking for in the nutrients and it wasn't just fat.
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Sure, but that doesn't fall under my definition of "smooth." :)
I persisted for several weeks at zero carbs when I first started out, and it just would not let up (alternating diarrhea and constipation for weeks on end), and I think there are others here for which it did not sort out so easily either. I increased carbs a bit (to around 20-30 g/d, I think) and it was fine. At the time, we weren't going so much for elevated ketones.
I personally wouldn't recommend going 70 to 0 in one step. It will work well for some, and make some quite ill. For the rest, I suppose it will sort itself out. The 20 g/d starting figure comes from a great deal of experience with the Atkins diet. But where Atkins goes back up after that, we have gone down. I was able to come back down again, once I worked up the courage to try it. (That first time was BAD!)
OK, then you are still excreting a lot of AA. From what I can remember it took me a long time to go through that phase -- the body doesn't seem to know what to do with it at first. So you might also be noticing it in your stool (not sure), or even coming from your skin, where it can cause or exacerbate a rash. It might even be giving you it's own "good" feeling; I don't really know about that.
H.E. said:
Sure, but that doesn't fall under my definition of "smooth." :)
I persisted for several weeks at zero carbs when I first started out, and it just would not let up (alternating diarrhea and constipation for weeks on end), and I think there are others here for which it did not sort out so easily either. I increased carbs a bit (to around 20-30 g/d, I think) and it was fine. At the time, we weren't going so much for elevated ketones.
I personally wouldn't recommend going 70 to 0 in one step. It will work well for some, and make some quite ill. For the rest, I suppose it will sort itself out. The 20 g/d starting figure comes from a great deal of experience with the Atkins diet. But where Atkins goes back up after that, we have gone down. I was able to come back down again, once I worked up the courage to try it. (That first time was BAD!)
HE said:
OK, then you are still excreting a lot of AA. From what I can remember it took me a long time to go through that phase -- the body doesn't seem to know what to do with it at first. So you might also be noticing it in your stool (not sure), or even coming from your skin, where it can cause or exacerbate a rash. It might even be giving you it's own "good" feeling; I don't really know about that.
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Ouch. That sounds like 3 days after my New Years, at the beginning of 2012. Trying to come out both ends at once, in fact. (Also a lot like my UltraShake experience in 2010, with flaxseed.) I don't know if dairy was implicated last year or not. I ate some mystery food at a restaurant and paid the price 3 days later.
This time around I refused to eat out anywhere after November, and there was no such excitement. I did try a cream/coffee experiment this year and felt "funny" afterward for quite some time. It's hard to say if the dairy is feeding pathogenic microbes, or provoking an allergic reaction, or what, but the message is definitely to stay away from dairy.
Laura said:
Ouch. That sounds like 3 days after my New Years, at the beginning of 2012. Trying to come out both ends at once, in fact. (Also a lot like my UltraShake experience in 2010, with flaxseed.) I don't know if dairy was implicated last year or not. I ate some mystery food at a restaurant and paid the price 3 days later.
This time around I refused to eat out anywhere after November, and there was no such excitement. I did try a cream/coffee experiment this year and felt "funny" afterward for quite some time. It's hard to say if the dairy is feeding pathogenic microbes, or provoking an allergic reaction, or what, but the message is definitely to stay away from dairy.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Thanks for clarifying Megan, now I understand what you meant. I think i can safely persist with 0 carbs as so far apart from the stool I noticed improvement on all levels. I think I last felt like this - especially with weight training - when I was in my 20-ties so its quite an effect. Anyhow, will see how it goes and will report back.
Thanks for clarifying Megan, now I understand what you meant. I think i can safely persist with 0 carbs as so far apart from the stool I noticed improvement on all levels. I think I last felt like this - especially with weight training - when I was in my 20-ties so its quite an effect. Anyhow, will see how it goes and will report back.
L
lwu02eb
Guest
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Just wanted to add a couple of my experiences lately:
I've noticed other people mention this too. I have found that the best way to carry the amount of fat required per meal is to seal the meat (restricted to 100g per person) in the required fat (1:3 or 1:4 if I'm not mistaken) and then add a couple of ladles of bone broth. The broth emulsifies the fat and makes it a whole lot more palateable.
Second, I appear to be very sensitive to xylitol. It causes me to feel nauseous and headachey, even with a very small amount. I Found this out after experimenting with dairy free, gluten free etc xylitol chocolate (2 of the small squares) and having 1/2 spoon in a cup of tea on a couple of occasions.
Just a quick question about cheese as it has been mentioned. I take it cheese is not compatable with the keto diet because it contains up to 30% protein derived from modified casein? Is that correct? Or is it more complicated than that? I know that it also contains up to 5% lactose.
I buy organic raw milk cheese for my other half and have consumed small amounts myself on occasion. It doesn't seem to have had an adverse effect but I can easily go without if it's detrimental.
Just wanted to add a couple of my experiences lately:
I've noticed other people mention this too. I have found that the best way to carry the amount of fat required per meal is to seal the meat (restricted to 100g per person) in the required fat (1:3 or 1:4 if I'm not mistaken) and then add a couple of ladles of bone broth. The broth emulsifies the fat and makes it a whole lot more palateable.
Second, I appear to be very sensitive to xylitol. It causes me to feel nauseous and headachey, even with a very small amount. I Found this out after experimenting with dairy free, gluten free etc xylitol chocolate (2 of the small squares) and having 1/2 spoon in a cup of tea on a couple of occasions.
Just a quick question about cheese as it has been mentioned. I take it cheese is not compatable with the keto diet because it contains up to 30% protein derived from modified casein? Is that correct? Or is it more complicated than that? I know that it also contains up to 5% lactose.
I buy organic raw milk cheese for my other half and have consumed small amounts myself on occasion. It doesn't seem to have had an adverse effect but I can easily go without if it's detrimental.
