Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks for clarifying Megan, now I understand what you meant. I think i can safely persist with 0 carbs as so far apart from the stool I noticed improvement on all levels. I think I last felt like this - especially with weight training - when I was in my 20-ties so its quite an effect. Anyhow, will see how it goes and will report back.

I'm sorry about the confusion - my developer tools were broken yesterday and I had time while I was reinstalling and banging on things to post here, but multitasking doesn't work all that great. I ended up doing my actual work in the evening, after the tools were running again.

Just remember that you (or anyone else here at this stage) shouldn't have to put up with diarrhea while keto-adapting, and I sure don't put up with it. You can have a real benefit from ketones at even 50 g/d of carbs (although as I said I wouldn't recommend starting that high unless necessary) and levels as low as 0.5 mmol/L βOHB, and then move down in carbs and up in ketones as your body is ready for it. I think we've discussed that to death already, but still it bears repeating. :)

 

[Psalehesost]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have been meaning to post an update on my experiments with cleaning up uncooperative gut bacteria. It seems to be going well, although not quite in the direction I originally expected. My original plan was to eliminate plant foods and wait, in an attempt to starve out the undesirable bacteria. I did stay with that plan long enough to clear out the tract, and reach stability.

In the mean time, however, I had been reading about the colon and the function of bacterial fermentation in it (I posted about this earlier), and I decided to try something different. As I mentioned, I bought some organic sauerkraut and started eating two helpings a day (at different times), on the theory that it would act as a cheap probiotic, solving the problem of the expense of the high potency probiotic capsules that I had been using previously.

The sauerkraut did two things: it supplied lots of the right kind of bacteria, and it supplied limited amounts of food for them in the form of the remaining unfermented saccharides. It did one other thing too -- a few days later I felt a large boost in energy! Something worked, finally. In fact I am still feeling better after two weeks of this.

[...]

I plan to reduce and then eliminate the sauerkraut at some point. I doubt that fermented vegetables would be important if normal gut fermentation were working well. I would hazard a guess that traditional foods include fermented foods because it helped compensate for the poor-quality traditional agriculture-based diet.

[...]

So now I am including veggies in my diet, but only in limited amounts and only kinds that contain few or no grams of available (net) carbohydrate. That keeps the carb intake near zero (I have started calling it "single digit carbs") but promotes fermentation on a moderate scale. The fiber volume is fairly low too -- well below the RDA -- and the fiber is of a type that seems to avoid GI tract damage. The fiber, of course, is where the non-digestible carbs reside that fuel fermentation so you may indeed want some fiber in your diet, but for fuel rather than for bulk. There are other potential sources of fuel for gut bacteria, but that is something I have not explored.

I don't know if there would be a benefit to promoting even more fermentation. It would appear that the small amount of veggies I am eating now produce plenty of it, resulting in good stool softness (indicating that it contains lots of bacteria), reasonable volume, and no significant constipation issues. Those small amounts may be all that is actually needed.

I've tried out sauerkraut as well - and still experimenting with it. My digestion never really sorted itself out completely, though I considered this a small price to pay given the mental benefits of a ketogenic diet. (Which I adopted earlier, along with other members as can be read about in the Life Without Bread thread - though I did it without protein restriction.)

I've attributed some of my digestive issues - at times constipation not having to do with any hardness, since stools were not hard at all, and at other times diarrhea - to emotional issues. The state of my mind determines the state of my bowels; there are subtle changes in how I feel proceeding automatically by association, and in some states I can't get anything out unless flushing with vitamin C (the pressure building up eventually makes it possible) due to tension, and in other states I easily get diarrhea.

The tense states have become less common, and diarrhea more common, during the last half year or so. It seemed to me that perhaps the diarrhea indicated not only nervousness (which was not fully felt), but also otherwise an inability to digest properly.

Everything just kind of "worked" prior to cutting down on carbs, but carbs make me foggy-headed. Fiber in general also makes me foggy-headed, and nearly all plant foods are out. But sauerkraut is almost fully OK - I seem to get some extra mucus production (there's regularly some to spit out in any case) and it's not a good idea to overdo it, but it's the least offensive plant food I've tried thus far - and it resulted in normal bowel movements the past two days. Today, remains to be seen.

In case of constipation, tremendous foggy-headedness sets in, so I'll know quickly if it fails.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...But sauerkraut is almost fully OK - I seem to get some extra mucus production (there's regularly some to spit out in any case) and it's not a good idea to overdo it, but it's the least offensive plant food I've tried thus far - and it resulted in normal bowel movements the past two days. Today, remains to be seen...

It may go in cycles. When you have bowel movement delays that aren't associated with other symptoms such as dry stool, I don't even think it should be called constipation. I am still experiencing that intermittently (right now, for instance), and I think it only bothers me because in the past, such delays were an indicator of major problems to come, some of it really awful. I am trying to retrain myself now to just let it take its time, and not worry about it. Whatever was causing the major symptoms is gone now.

If the mucus production is mirrored in your gut, it should make it work better. Apparently, beneficial gut bacteria can dine on the stuff as well. While the "safe starch" advocates claim you need a lot of carbohydrate to maintain mucus, I think they may be jumping to conclusions -- perhaps because they want the starchy foods that would otherwise be eliminated. There is still lots to learn.

 

[Rhythmik]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hello, thanks to all for their contributions to these threads.
I'd like to tell my story to make sure I'm doing this properly, and I also have some questions. (I read LWB, PBPM + relevant threads).
I'm male 27yrs old. 1+ yrs ago I was the heaviest I'd ever been at 92kg. Decided to start going to the gym and the dietician there gave me the typical meal plan of 40% carbs 40% protein 20% fat. I got down to 85kg but couldn't get any lighter. I then found these threads, and I decided to go pretty much cold turkey off the carbs (which at the time was mostly oats + brown rice). I was noticeably fatigued during my workouts for the first week or so but then I adjusted and felt fine.
Getting off the sugar was extremely difficult, it definitely is like a drug. But as soon as I did this I noticed quick results. I think a little while after this I was in ketosis. I was only eating twice a day, I was getting full very quickly and I wasn't dependent on food anymore. I could eat a big breakfast and not be hungry again until the evening (sometimes even the next day). I also had improved mental clarity. I then started having bone broth (from non grass-fed bones) and I felt amazing.
It was at this point that I got down to below 80kg (which I hadn't been for the previous 7-8yrs). To celebrate I accepted a friend's offer to go out for some Thai food (one of my previous favourites which I had eaten for years without any problems). Obviously this was a mistake! As soon as I'd finished my curry my face started to go extremely tingly, it was such a strange sensation. Any idea why this happened? (A poster previously said something about - noticing it more when you throw dirt on a clean slate instead of a dirty one. I understand this now) So unfortunately that meal turned into a weekend-long carb/sugar binge. It was at this point I had made some bone broth from grass-fed bones and the next day I tried some but it did not mix well with me. I then felt and understood the danger of mixing high-fat with high carbs. I then slowly got myself back off the bad stuff and I've been pretty strict but I haven't regained that level of well-being that I had previously.

So I'm basically only eating: butter, bacon (all grass-fed) lamb, beef, pork/ribs, sausages, high-quality eggs + sometimes tuna/salmon. The only vegetable I've been eating is sweet potato. Sometimes avocado.
I'm taking daily: fish oil, magnesium, celtic salt (on food and in water). I was taking coconut oil but going without for a while.
Potassium I can only obtain here via prescription. (Do I need to supplement it? What can I say to a Dr to get a prescription?)

The thread has been saying that too much protein can knock one out of ketosis. What are some safe foods that are high-fat but not too high in protein or carbs?

I'm training to get extreme strength (I'm a dancer). Some of my bodybuilding friends say that the ketogenic diet will cause muscle loss and that this has been documented. Is there any evidence to the contrary? I know a lot of bodybuilding science is bogus and I even was testing my bodyfat% and muscle mass at the gym, and during my low-carb diet I lost body fat but still slightly gained muscle mass. I'm also getting stronger so if anything I will be a good experiment for someone following a VLC diet that also wants to build muscle + extreme strength. I've also switched up my workouts, I don't go to the gym anymore but I do HIIT twice a week + a lot of body weight stuff. I assume that I can do the resistance training without weights? Are body weight exercises adequate?

One more question, today I went to the pharmacist and I got my blood sugar tested for the first time. It was 3.4 (approx. 20mins after eating 100g of pork). Is this good/bad? The pharmacist asked me if I was feeling faint and told me I should go eat some bread or some other carbs. Would it be a good idea to purchase a bloodsugar tester? What's a 'safe' range? She said that ketosis was up around 22? This doesn't make sense to me.

Any other suggestions?
Thank you

 

[lwu02eb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I made my first couple if batches of sauerkraut recently. I had the same initial nauseous reaction Megan talked about. Since then I've found that a tablespoonful with each meal is really beneficial. I use it to mop up the fat left in my bowl and it definitely helps with digestion. This is proper 'live stuff' and incredibly easy to make. I found this site really good personally:

http://www.wildfermentation.com/making-sauerkraut-2/

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Any other suggestions?
Thank you

First off, have you read this entire thread? Some (if not all) of what you're asking can be found in it. :)

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...To celebrate I accepted a friend's offer to go out for some Thai food (one of my previous favourites which I had eaten for years without any problems). Obviously this was a mistake! As soon as I'd finished my curry my face started to go extremely tingly, it was such a strange sensation. Any idea why this happened?...

I don't know what you experienced, It could be the early stages of an allergic reaction, but then it might just be the curry.

I'm training to get extreme strength (I'm a dancer). Some of my bodybuilding friends say that the ketogenic diet will cause muscle loss and that this has been documented. Is there any evidence to the contrary?...

You may find the book The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance helpful, by Phinney & Volek. P&V are low-carb researchers and ketogenic diet advocates, but they are not in the Paleo camp. Some of their food recommendations are terrible. But you can take what you learn from here about food choices (so keep reading the topics and recommended books) and apply it to their information about athletic performance. This book also seems to be what stirred the interest in ketone meters in the paleo community.

...
One more question, today I went to the pharmacist and I got my blood sugar tested for the first time. It was 3.4 (approx. 20mins after eating 100g of pork). Is this good/bad? The pharmacist asked me if I was feeling faint and told me I should go eat some bread or some other carbs. Would it be a good idea to purchase a bloodsugar tester? What's a 'safe' range? She said that ketosis was up around 22? This doesn't make sense to me...

Could you (or someone) convert the glucose reading from mmol/L to mg/dL? It does sound low, but I don't know how low. A BOHB reading of 22 mmol/L doesn't make sense to me either (you don't happen to know the units?). A range of 0.5-3.0 is good, although one can go higher, and most carb-eating people are much lower.

 

[Z...]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan it looks like you were right about the diarrhea, I ate one very small apple ( about 10 grams of carbs including fibre) yesterday afternoon and today my bowels are in perfect working order.
As long as I can stay in ketosis with this quantity of carbs I dont mind having one piece of fruit per day.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan it looks like you were right about the diarrhea, I ate one very small apple ( about 10 grams of carbs including fibre) yesterday afternoon and today my bowels are in perfect working order.
As long as I can stay in ketosis with this quantity of carbs I dont mind having one piece of fruit per day.

It is quite possible that it will change over time. I can go for weeks now without any plant foods and without major symptoms, but I am finding that certain very low carb plant foods including chard and a few lower-carb FODMAPs are beneficial. In fact, my weight has started dropping again, and I am finally back in the "normal" BMI range (< 25) for what that is worth (pretty much nothing).

I think the reason for this is the natural fermentation process and the byproducts it produces, some of which we probably don't even know about yet.

Be careful with apples. Small amounts of common fruits should not be a problem for most people, and some species can potentially provide something beneficial as an offset to the fructose -- which does not appear to be beneficial as far as I can tell, unless turning it into fat in the liver counts as a benefit. Apples, however, have been tampered with through hybridization to produce an unnatural fruit high in sugar. Apples grown from seed are not usually much good for food (traditionally they were fermented to make cider), and that is the kind we probably should use as a guide. Any number of paleo authors/bloggers have expressed concern about apples as well. There may be anti-nutrient issues.

I believe people here are mostly avoiding fruit. I occasionally eat locally-grown berries (from the back yard, especially), but I haven't had any in months now and I would not make a meal of them. They can, however, contribute to healthy fermentation in the gut.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The pharmacist asked me if I was feeling faint and told me I should go eat some bread or some other carbs.

When people eat carbs they usually associate low sugar levels with bad moods, fainting symptoms, comatose states and all the setbacks that go with a metabolism based on carbs.

Getting used to low blood sugar levels through the ketogenic diet without having any symptoms of low blood sugar levels is pro-longevity. You will enjoy reading Primal Body Primal Mind by Nora Gedgaudas.

 

[Gertrudes]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...True. And I tried cream over Christmas and was very, very sorry. It acted in my system like burning acid. It was terrible. And then there was the projectile vomiting... in short, I ruined my Christmas night!

Ouch. That sounds like 3 days after my New Years, at the beginning of 2012. Trying to come out both ends at once, in fact. (Also a lot like my UltraShake experience in 2010, with flaxseed.) I don't know if dairy was implicated last year or not. I ate some mystery food at a restaurant and paid the price 3 days later.

This time around I refused to eat out anywhere after November, and there was no such excitement. I did try a cream/coffee experiment this year and felt "funny" afterward for quite some time. It's hard to say if the dairy is feeding pathogenic microbes, or provoking an allergic reaction, or what, but the message is definitely to stay away from dairy.

Dairy has such a bad effect in me that even tough I used to absolutely love cheese, I don't ever want to get near any of that stuff. Ghee is fine though, even home made one. The problem to me seems to be purely the casein.

But speaking of Christmas and New year's meals, I flew back to Portugal this year and knew that I would be eating out at family and friends houses most of the time, so I just asked everyone to simply give me a piece of plain meat cooked with salt.
Well, wouldn't you know, plain meat for most people means that you can add curry, paprika, wine, and the list goes on.... I ended up foggy headed and with an headache most of the time. One thing that surprised me is that even heated olive oil caused me flu like symptoms. We know that any liquid oil shouldn't be heated (if eaten at all), but go tell that to the average Portuguese who has eaten virtually everything cooked in olive oil since the day he/she began to eat solids....

Second, I appear to be very sensitive to xylitol. It causes me to feel nauseous and headachey, even with a very small amount. I Found this out after experimenting with dairy free, gluten free etc xylitol chocolate (2 of the small squares) and having 1/2 spoon in a cup of tea on a couple of occasions.

Yeah, I can't have any xylitol either. In my case it gives me abdominal cramps that can last for hours. Several other members have also reported not being able to tolerate it.

I buy organic raw milk cheese for my other half and have consumed small amounts myself on occasion. It doesn't seem to have had an adverse effect but I can easily go without if it's detrimental.

Some foods may only give you adverse effects if eliminated for a long enough period of time. I have been on an almost 100% fat and meat diet for well over an year now, and every time I eat something that I shouldn't have eaten, I get stronger and stronger responses. Perhaps you could try not eating any form of dairy for a while, say a few months, and then test it again?

 

[Rhythmik]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

First off, have you read this entire thread? Some (if not all) of what you're asking can be found in it. :)

Yes I have, I've attempted to take notes but I will admit I've probably missed a few things. Apologies if my questions have been repeatedly asked already.

Could you (or someone) convert the glucose reading from mmol/L to mg/dL?

Yes it is 62 mg/dl

Thanks, I will order Art and Science

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Second, I appear to be very sensitive to xylitol. It causes me to feel nauseous and headachey, even with a very small amount. I Found this out after experimenting with dairy free, gluten free etc xylitol chocolate (2 of the small squares) and having 1/2 spoon in a cup of tea on a couple of occasions.

There is a topic here on the forum somewhere about Xylitol. Some brands are nasty. I started out buying a good brand, and then the store replaced it with a crappy one and I had to stop using it. It is also a FODMAP, which can be trouble under some circumstances. I still have the last container of it, so that I can try it in homemade tooth powder.

Just a quick question about cheese as it has been mentioned. I take it cheese is not compatable with the keto diet because it contains up to 30% protein derived from modified casein? Is that correct? Or is it more complicated than that? I know that it also contains up to 5% lactose.

I buy organic raw milk cheese for my other half and have consumed small amounts myself on occasion. It doesn't seem to have had an adverse effect but I can easily go without if it's detrimental.

I'm not sure what is going on with cheese, but the diet we are experimenting with here differs from ketogenic diets used elsewhere, and perhaps it brings out the worst in cheese by eliminating so many problem foods. I find it rather amazing how many contradictory statements have been made about cheese by knowledgeable people elsewhere that should know better. There is something complicated going on that nobody understands, I would guess.

What I do know is that while it was a staple in my diet prior to the KD, I can't eat cheese in any form now without paying a price starting several days later and continuing for weeks. It might be the protein, or it might be the oligosaccharides (FODMAPs), or it might be any number of things, alone or in combination.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Could you (or someone) convert the glucose reading from mmol/L to mg/dL?

Yes it is 62 mg/dl

Thanks, I will order Art and Science

That's low! That explains the advice to "eat carbs." You might want to monitor your blood glucose using a home glucometer, to see what's going on. The more you know before you see a doctor, the better.

You have a choice of buying a meter that also measures ketones, but possibly paying more per strip for the glucose test strips, or of buying a separate glucose-only meter with less expensive strips. I have a Precision Xtra that does both, but I still use an Accu-Chek (glucose only), sometimes. I don't know if the strips are cheaper or not for the latter, but I have a lot of them to use up! The Accu-Check strips are relatively expensive too, but it's really easy to use -- it dispenses the strips rather than making you insert them.

There is another dual-use meter in common use that I have forgotten the name of. Its strips are cheaper, but concerns about the accuracy have been reported and I decided against it.

I have a book on my Kindle waiting to be read that is about how to use a glucometer. I will skim through it and see if I think it is worth recommending.

 

[Rhythmik]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

If it's low does that mean I should be eating more carbs? (I am pretty close to zero, some days i will eat a sweet potato).
I haven't had much sleep this week if that is a contributing factor, or could it be some other kind of condition?

I will purchase a glucometer and keep track of my levels.