Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions
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Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Here the evidence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation
Stefanson also write about excess protein consumption in his book: Fat of the land.
Nitrogenous compounds in excess in blood is bad for the brain.
Here the evidence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation
Stefanson also write about excess protein consumption in his book: Fat of the land.
Nitrogenous compounds in excess in blood is bad for the brain.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
That argument has been used time again to highlight the importance of having fat in the diet. You cannot subsist on protein alone, it is the fat that is essential.
But it is true that a person with normal kidney function can process protein just fine. As explained in the "Art of Low Carb eating", the belief of “protein is bad for kidneys” was based on studies with kidneys with impaired function and damage. People with normal kidney function can filter proteins just fine within the context of a low carb diet and not rabbit starvation.
Here is a comprehensive study comparing the effects of low-carb high-protein diet on the kidneys. It shows no harmful effects on kidney function in obese people:
_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22653255
Overall, the important thing is to keep in mind the importance of moderating protein and eating more fat.
Astrocyte said:
That argument has been used time again to highlight the importance of having fat in the diet. You cannot subsist on protein alone, it is the fat that is essential.
But it is true that a person with normal kidney function can process protein just fine. As explained in the "Art of Low Carb eating", the belief of “protein is bad for kidneys” was based on studies with kidneys with impaired function and damage. People with normal kidney function can filter proteins just fine within the context of a low carb diet and not rabbit starvation.
Here is a comprehensive study comparing the effects of low-carb high-protein diet on the kidneys. It shows no harmful effects on kidney function in obese people:
_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22653255
Overall, the important thing is to keep in mind the importance of moderating protein and eating more fat.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Yes, there is such a thing as too much protein, that's not really what I was saying (although note that the quote from Wikipedia doesn't say anything about kidney damage, only what they're able to safely process). In the context of the thread, the Ron Rosedale article is talking about situations where an individual attempts a ketogenic diet but ends up too high in protein.
It's important to remember that cases of "rabbit starvation" are usually extreme examples, where the only available food is protein (no fat or carb). It's not generally situations where people are trying to do a low carb diet and getting it completely wrong. I would imagine one would feel extremely sick long before they got to the point of damaging their kidneys, if they were subsisting on nothing but protein by choice. 221-301g is a massive amount of protein, which isn't going to be encountered by someone by accident, OSIT.
Astrocyte said:
Yes, there is such a thing as too much protein, that's not really what I was saying (although note that the quote from Wikipedia doesn't say anything about kidney damage, only what they're able to safely process). In the context of the thread, the Ron Rosedale article is talking about situations where an individual attempts a ketogenic diet but ends up too high in protein.
It's important to remember that cases of "rabbit starvation" are usually extreme examples, where the only available food is protein (no fat or carb). It's not generally situations where people are trying to do a low carb diet and getting it completely wrong. I would imagine one would feel extremely sick long before they got to the point of damaging their kidneys, if they were subsisting on nothing but protein by choice. 221-301g is a massive amount of protein, which isn't going to be encountered by someone by accident, OSIT.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Interesting little video, posted by the official Ketonix page on facebook:
It's basically the story of a brain tumor patient, who endorses the keto diet and the Ketonix device to fine-tune the ketone levels. A few notes I took:
- She had a huge brain tumor, which got removed right in time
- Afterwards, she refused Chemo and radiation and eventually used a strict ketogenic diet to battle her cancer
- She created a chart with all her blood test results during different diets (Vegan, Vegetarian, Paleo, Ketogenic)
- She endorses the Ketonix ketone testing device as opposed to test strips (don't work once keto-adapted) and blood testing (expensive)
- She used the Ketonix device to test different foods and their effects on ketosis
- According to her doctor, the results are different from person to person
- For example, coconut products kick her out of ketosis, while being totally fine for others!
- So she says we can use the Ketonix to adapt the diet to our own metabolism, blood levels, insulin resistance and so on
- If you have brain cancer for example, or MS, you might want to aim at a higher level of ketones.
- She could achieve this by measuring her reaction to different foods, and therapeutically use the diet that way.
Interesting little video, posted by the official Ketonix page on facebook:
It's basically the story of a brain tumor patient, who endorses the keto diet and the Ketonix device to fine-tune the ketone levels. A few notes I took:
- She had a huge brain tumor, which got removed right in time
- Afterwards, she refused Chemo and radiation and eventually used a strict ketogenic diet to battle her cancer
- She created a chart with all her blood test results during different diets (Vegan, Vegetarian, Paleo, Ketogenic)
- She endorses the Ketonix ketone testing device as opposed to test strips (don't work once keto-adapted) and blood testing (expensive)
- She used the Ketonix device to test different foods and their effects on ketosis
- According to her doctor, the results are different from person to person
- For example, coconut products kick her out of ketosis, while being totally fine for others!
- So she says we can use the Ketonix to adapt the diet to our own metabolism, blood levels, insulin resistance and so on
- If you have brain cancer for example, or MS, you might want to aim at a higher level of ketones.
- She could achieve this by measuring her reaction to different foods, and therapeutically use the diet that way.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Thanks LQB, very interesting. If it came up before, I must have missed it (a search for Ketonix didn't yield any result pointing to that). So this device is useless for many of us
What I didn't know and found interesting is that different foods can kick us out of ketosis, depending on individual factors and not necessarily related to carb intake - something I kind of noticed myself even without measuring ketone levels. From what I understand (which isn't much unfortunately
), all this has to do with our different hormones getting activated, influencing each other and so on...?
LQB said:
Thanks LQB, very interesting. If it came up before, I must have missed it (a search for Ketonix didn't yield any result pointing to that). So this device is useless for many of us
What I didn't know and found interesting is that different foods can kick us out of ketosis, depending on individual factors and not necessarily related to carb intake - something I kind of noticed myself even without measuring ketone levels. From what I understand (which isn't much unfortunately
), all this has to do with our different hormones getting activated, influencing each other and so on...?
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I have a ketonix device and a kit for the blood testing. And as far as I'm concern, there is nothing like the blood testing. It is accurate and you always have the right result. The ketonix device is useful but not very precise and can give a wrong info from time to time.
LQB said:
I have a ketonix device and a kit for the blood testing. And as far as I'm concern, there is nothing like the blood testing. It is accurate and you always have the right result. The ketonix device is useful but not very precise and can give a wrong info from time to time.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
One of my interrogation about Ketonix is the sensor technology behind it. Is it a simple fuel cell or as they seem to imply, an acetone specific sensor?
Another thing that bug me is this statement on their FAQ [http://www.ketonix.co/products-setup-and-support/frequently-asked-questions/]:
"KETONIX detects the presence of ketosis but does not give a quantitative indication of total plasma ketone concentrations."
In my book, not quantitative is qualitative.
On the studies they cites [http://www.ketonix.co/studies/]: 'Analysis of breath can be equally effective as urin samples' but real name: 'Breath acetone is a reliable indicatorof ketosis in adults consuming ketogenic meals':
We discover as said, that it can be equally effective as urin samples, in other words, equal or worst than urine. This study also say: "Urine dipstick analysis is less invasive but is also less reliable."
The study also state that the subjects were under controlled hydratation (125mL H2O each hr), giving a more consistent ketone concentration in urine.
I find the whole rationale behind Ketonix to be HIGHLY biased!!!
One of my interrogation about Ketonix is the sensor technology behind it. Is it a simple fuel cell or as they seem to imply, an acetone specific sensor?
Another thing that bug me is this statement on their FAQ [http://www.ketonix.co/products-setup-and-support/frequently-asked-questions/]:
"KETONIX detects the presence of ketosis but does not give a quantitative indication of total plasma ketone concentrations."
In my book, not quantitative is qualitative.
On the studies they cites [http://www.ketonix.co/studies/]: 'Analysis of breath can be equally effective as urin samples' but real name: 'Breath acetone is a reliable indicatorof ketosis in adults consuming ketogenic meals':
We discover as said, that it can be equally effective as urin samples, in other words, equal or worst than urine. This study also say: "Urine dipstick analysis is less invasive but is also less reliable."
The study also state that the subjects were under controlled hydratation (125mL H2O each hr), giving a more consistent ketone concentration in urine.
I find the whole rationale behind Ketonix to be HIGHLY biased!!!
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I had read the 'life without bread'/"ketogenic' thread up to two years ago, and then went off on the iodine and other threads as well continuing my reading on diet and health (low carb living, bursting with energy, body by science and the like as well as Dr Jack Kruse, Dr Mercola, etc) So I will go back and pick up my reading of this thread from where I left off.
I am finding it really difficult to stay on ketosis, and I wonder if anyone has had a similar problem.
For a long time I thought I was in ketosis, but it turns out checking your ketones at night is not the time to check it. I had assumed that I would by default be in ketosis after sleeping all night, but that wasn't the case as checking my ketones on waking up showed i was not in ketosis. My first longest stretch in ketosis was approx 19 days from 1 Oct 2015 to 22 Oct 2015 and the popcorn experiment blew that away! blood sugar average for that time period was 5.8 (5.5-6.2) which is another concern as my blood sugar should not be that high! My second long stretch was from 4 Feb 2016 - 20 Feb 2016 (average glucose 6.1 (5.5-6.8)) and most recently from 11 May 2016 - 24 may 2016 (average glucose 5.1 (4.5-6))
I find that eating a no carb diet will not put me into ketosis. The most reliable way for me to achieve ketosis is by fasting for a day or two, and then going to a no carb diet (I do use a little erythtritol/xylitol, and coconut milk) Over the past year I have been using the fat bomb recipe and eating about 150 grams of that every day to make sure I get enough fat. My morning meal is bacon and eggs, but lately I have mixed it up with canned fish with a DHA capsule (Jack Kruse influence) for breakfast but that is still no carb.
I do other things as well but I don't know if they are relevant, so I'll just list them off, on the off chance that someone might see a connection (5 drops lugols 5%/day, high intensity stationary bicycle 17 minutes once a week, hi intensity weightlifting (about 20 minutes) once a week, regular weightlifting once a week, walking, bicycling as needed, cold baths pretty well everyday. FIR sauna 3-6 times a week, Pulsed ElectromagneticFrequency mat, magnetico bed, q-link, and supplementation as per my doctors prescription (no medications))
I think that leptin might play a factor, so I have been doing a leptin reset diet (as per Richards "mastering leptin" and Jack Kruse) and trying to get to bed before midnight! (boy, that is a tough one - when am I going to find time to read SOTT?)
So I am looking at leptin, circadian rhythm, light and coffee (caffeine in the morning only at present) to deal with the ketosis issue.
(as an aside I noticed when I went to Costa Rica to visit my daughter last year that I lost 10 pounds, even though I was eating some carbs - which I put down to going to bed early (sunsets at 6pm!) so that is a circadian link for me.)
I am curious as to anyone's understanding of my high glucose readings. Where is the glucose coming from? At first i thought I must be losing muscle (scavenging protein for glucose) but I haven't noticed any weakness in daily life or when doing weightlifting as what I am lifting keeps going up! Maybe it is glucose from fat? My weight is unchanging but that could be because I am building muscle while losing fat, though my body composition is not changing, still lots of fat there!
Since switching to a paleo diet 4 years ago, I dropped 55 pounds in 5 months (235 to 180) but since trying to go keto my weight has gone up to 200 pounds.
Anyway, this is maybe TMI (ya think?
but I am open to any questions or comments! Thanks to all of you for this thread, and this forum. It humbles me and I feel gratitude.
I had read the 'life without bread'/"ketogenic' thread up to two years ago, and then went off on the iodine and other threads as well continuing my reading on diet and health (low carb living, bursting with energy, body by science and the like as well as Dr Jack Kruse, Dr Mercola, etc) So I will go back and pick up my reading of this thread from where I left off.
I am finding it really difficult to stay on ketosis, and I wonder if anyone has had a similar problem.
For a long time I thought I was in ketosis, but it turns out checking your ketones at night is not the time to check it. I had assumed that I would by default be in ketosis after sleeping all night, but that wasn't the case as checking my ketones on waking up showed i was not in ketosis. My first longest stretch in ketosis was approx 19 days from 1 Oct 2015 to 22 Oct 2015 and the popcorn experiment blew that away! blood sugar average for that time period was 5.8 (5.5-6.2) which is another concern as my blood sugar should not be that high! My second long stretch was from 4 Feb 2016 - 20 Feb 2016 (average glucose 6.1 (5.5-6.8)) and most recently from 11 May 2016 - 24 may 2016 (average glucose 5.1 (4.5-6))
I find that eating a no carb diet will not put me into ketosis. The most reliable way for me to achieve ketosis is by fasting for a day or two, and then going to a no carb diet (I do use a little erythtritol/xylitol, and coconut milk) Over the past year I have been using the fat bomb recipe and eating about 150 grams of that every day to make sure I get enough fat. My morning meal is bacon and eggs, but lately I have mixed it up with canned fish with a DHA capsule (Jack Kruse influence) for breakfast but that is still no carb.
I do other things as well but I don't know if they are relevant, so I'll just list them off, on the off chance that someone might see a connection (5 drops lugols 5%/day, high intensity stationary bicycle 17 minutes once a week, hi intensity weightlifting (about 20 minutes) once a week, regular weightlifting once a week, walking, bicycling as needed, cold baths pretty well everyday. FIR sauna 3-6 times a week, Pulsed ElectromagneticFrequency mat, magnetico bed, q-link, and supplementation as per my doctors prescription (no medications))
I think that leptin might play a factor, so I have been doing a leptin reset diet (as per Richards "mastering leptin" and Jack Kruse) and trying to get to bed before midnight! (boy, that is a tough one - when am I going to find time to read SOTT?)
So I am looking at leptin, circadian rhythm, light and coffee (caffeine in the morning only at present) to deal with the ketosis issue.
(as an aside I noticed when I went to Costa Rica to visit my daughter last year that I lost 10 pounds, even though I was eating some carbs - which I put down to going to bed early (sunsets at 6pm!) so that is a circadian link for me.)
I am curious as to anyone's understanding of my high glucose readings. Where is the glucose coming from? At first i thought I must be losing muscle (scavenging protein for glucose) but I haven't noticed any weakness in daily life or when doing weightlifting as what I am lifting keeps going up! Maybe it is glucose from fat? My weight is unchanging but that could be because I am building muscle while losing fat, though my body composition is not changing, still lots of fat there!
Since switching to a paleo diet 4 years ago, I dropped 55 pounds in 5 months (235 to 180) but since trying to go keto my weight has gone up to 200 pounds.
Anyway, this is maybe TMI (ya think?
but I am open to any questions or comments! Thanks to all of you for this thread, and this forum. It humbles me and I feel gratitude.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
That would be my question, too. I know that when I was eating unlimited protein, I was definitely experiencing high (and low) blood sugar symptoms. I didn't get into true ketosis until I cut the protein to moderate levels.
Gaby said:
That would be my question, too. I know that when I was eating unlimited protein, I was definitely experiencing high (and low) blood sugar symptoms. I didn't get into true ketosis until I cut the protein to moderate levels.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I am curious too about how much protein you consume. We use a 80:20 ratio (fat:protein) in energy. Normally you shall not consume more protein than what your body need. We find it difficult to produce ketones if not having enough coconut oil. This kind of fat promote the production of ketones.
How do you measure ketones level and what level you achieve? We use only blood as other methods are very unreliable. Also we consider a usefull level of ketone to be between 4 and 8 mmol/L and that ketone level shall be greater than glucose level still in mmol/L.
The body is capable of producing its own glucose using gluconeogenesis. Too much protein is the probable suspect for too high glucose level, but other conditions, genetics or medications may be the culprit.
anarkist said:I am curious as to anyone's understanding of my high glucose readings. Where is the glucose coming from? At first i thought I must be losing muscle (scavenging protein for glucose) but I haven't noticed any weakness in daily life or when doing weightlifting as what I am lifting keeps going up! Maybe it is glucose from fat? My weight is unchanging but that could be because I am building muscle while losing fat, though my body composition is not changing, still lots of fat there!
Since switching to a paleo diet 4 years ago, I dropped 55 pounds in 5 months (235 to 180) but since trying to go keto my weight has gone up to 200 pounds.
Anyway, this is maybe TMI (ya think?
I am curious too about how much protein you consume. We use a 80:20 ratio (fat:protein) in energy. Normally you shall not consume more protein than what your body need. We find it difficult to produce ketones if not having enough coconut oil. This kind of fat promote the production of ketones.
How do you measure ketones level and what level you achieve? We use only blood as other methods are very unreliable. Also we consider a usefull level of ketone to be between 4 and 8 mmol/L and that ketone level shall be greater than glucose level still in mmol/L.
The body is capable of producing its own glucose using gluconeogenesis. Too much protein is the probable suspect for too high glucose level, but other conditions, genetics or medications may be the culprit.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Thanks Gaby. I had been following the thread previously and was aware of concerns about too much protein and GNG, so I have been keeping my protein to 100 grams or less per day(about a pound of meat-fish/day). The only times I might bump it up a bit is days when i do my high intensity workouts, and sometimes i might take about 25 grams extra (about 50 grams of weigh protein if I use that) after a workout.
Gaby said:
Thanks Gaby. I had been following the thread previously and was aware of concerns about too much protein and GNG, so I have been keeping my protein to 100 grams or less per day(about a pound of meat-fish/day). The only times I might bump it up a bit is days when i do my high intensity workouts, and sometimes i might take about 25 grams extra (about 50 grams of weigh protein if I use that) after a workout.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Thanks dugdeep. I have been keeping my protein levels fairly low, bacon and sausage with 2 eggs in the morning, that's my big meal of the day. I will have about 100 grams of canned meat (meat I canned myself in glass jars) so about 25 gr of protein in the evening. That is about 100-110 grams of protein, about 400-440 calories which is about 20% of 2000 calories, and my daily fat bomb is around 1350 calories and that is about 50% coconut oil, 25% grass fed butter, 25% organic lard. Lately I have been going more to 50% lard as i can get it for free from a local butcher. It is possible I am eating too much protein, but I did not think it was over the top so to speak. I use calories not to count them but just to get an approximation of the ratio between fat and protein, and I went with 2000 calories per day based on my resting metabolic rate so I thought I could get a little more than 100 grams of protein and more than 150 grams fat (from bacon-sausage-eggs) as I am somewhat active so I certainly need more than 2000 calories per day.dugdeep said:
