Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks Gaby. I had been following the thread previously and was aware of concerns about too much protein and GNG, so I have been keeping my protein to 100 grams or less per day(about a pound of meat-fish/day). The only times I might bump it up a bit is days when i do my high intensity workouts, and sometimes i might take about 25 grams extra (about 50 grams of weigh protein if I use that) after a workout.

That might be part of the problem. How tall are you?

For 145 pounds of body weight, the protein intake would be around 65 grams per day, perhaps a bit more if you are working out a lot. Usually, it is 0.8-1 grams of protein per kilogram of ideal weight.

In general, people tend to remain in ketosis when they eat some carbs, as long as it is in the restricted range. For some, up to 40-60 grams. But if you eat extra protein, even if it is a little extra, that usually takes people out of ketosis.

Maybe that is why you did better on the paleo diet?

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

It is possible I am eating too much protein, but I did not think it was over the top so to speak.

Here is an excellent article which was quoted earlier, it summarizes the discussions around "moderate protein intake":

Restricting your protein intake will help you live longer and improve your overall health
https://www.sott.net/article/317857-Restricting-your-protein-intake-will-help-you-live-longer-and-improve-your-overall-health

There are some tips on how to calculate your protein intake.

Here is another tool:

Ketogenic Diet – Protein and Carb Counter for Dummies
http://health-matrix.net/2013/02/10/ketogenic-diet-protein-and-carb-counter-for-dummies/

I would count your protein intake for a few days to get a real sense of how much you are eating. Maybe that is the problem, too much protein.

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am curious as to anyone's understanding of my high glucose readings. Where is the glucose coming from? At first i thought I must be losing muscle (scavenging protein for glucose) but I haven't noticed any weakness in daily life or when doing weightlifting as what I am lifting keeps going up! Maybe it is glucose from fat? My weight is unchanging but that could be because I am building muscle while losing fat, though my body composition is not changing, still lots of fat there!
Since switching to a paleo diet 4 years ago, I dropped 55 pounds in 5 months (235 to 180) but since trying to go keto my weight has gone up to 200 pounds.
Anyway, this is maybe TMI (ya think? but I am open to any questions or comments! Thanks to all of you for this thread, and this forum. It humbles me and I feel gratitude.

I am curious too about how much protein you consume. We use a 80:20 ratio (fat:protein) in energy. Normally you shall not consume more protein than what your body need. We find it difficult to produce ketones if not having enough coconut oil. This kind of fat promote the production of ketones.

How do you measure ketones level and what level you achieve? We use only blood as other methods are very unreliable. Also we consider a usefull level of ketone to be between 4 and 8 mmol/L and that ketone level shall be greater than glucose level still in mmol/L.

The body is capable of producing its own glucose using gluconeogenesis. Too much protein is the probable suspect for too high glucose level, but other conditions, genetics or medications may be the culprit.

thanks Astrocyte.
I try to keep in the 80:20 range you mention. I have a 1300 calorie fat bomb made up of coconut oil, lard, butter (always 250gr butter, 500 gr from coconut oil and 250 gr from lard, or 500 gr lard and 250 gr coconut oil. butter has a fair bit of Medium Chain triclycerides, but coconut oil has way more.
so 80:20 tells me I need 4 times the calories I get from protein as fat. So if I eat 400 calories of protein(100 grams), I need to eat 1600 calories of fat(180 grams) in order to keep in the 80:20 window.
I test using a precision-xtra for ketones, and a accu-chek for glucose, first thing on arising in the morning.
Here is an example of my ketone levels with corresponding glucose levels from my last 'session' of ketosis. (I tested every day for 3 days to confirm I was in ketosis, and then checked my ketones every second day as ketone sticks are expensive!)
ketone first, then glucose. all in mmol/L
0.6 - 6.5
1.8 - 5.5
0.6 - 5.5
no test - 6
2.9 - 5
no test - no test
2.4 - 5.5
no test - 5.5
3.8 - 5
no test - 5.5
0.6 - 5.75
no test - 5.5
2.8 - 6
no test - no test
0.4 - 5.2 out of ketosis
I am curious about your mention of good ketone levels being between 4 and 8. I though ketosis was achieved from level .5 and up? in the past year I have only achieved ketone levels above 4 twice back in Oct 2015 ketosis!
In the past I was pretty strict about measuring/weighing fat and protein, but i no longer do that as I have a fairly good idea of how much of each i am consuming. Also, my goal was to achieve ketosis, and then reduce the amount of fat i ate so that my body fat would be used, so sometimes I would not worry to much if I didn't have the correct amount of fat. Also because I drink coconut milk (ratio of protein to fat is 1:17) and fat from bacon/sausage/eggs/coconut oil(for frying on low heat) I thought I was OK in the fat department.
I honestly don't think excess protein is the problem!

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks Gaby. I had been following the thread previously and was aware of concerns about too much protein and GNG, so I have been keeping my protein to 100 grams or less per day(about a pound of meat-fish/day). The only times I might bump it up a bit is days when i do my high intensity workouts, and sometimes i might take about 25 grams extra (about 50 grams of weigh protein if I use that) after a workout.

That might be part of the problem. How tall are you?

For 145 pounds of body weight, the protein intake would be around 65 grams per day, perhaps a bit more if you are working out a lot. Usually, it is 0.8-1 grams of protein per kilogram of ideal weight.

In general, people tend to remain in ketosis when they eat some carbs, as long as it is in the restricted range. For some, up to 40-60 grams. But if you eat extra protein, even if it is a little extra, that usually takes people out of ketosis.

Maybe that is why you did better on the paleo diet?

maybe that is why I did better on the paleo, and in Costa Rica also (although I think lots of sunlight and good sleep patterns helped there also)
I remember it was pretty contentious on the forum about the minimum and maximum protein and how to calculate it. In Volek and Phinneys book they recommend 0.7-0.9 grams protein per pound reference weight(1-2 grams per kilo). I took that to mean lean body mass which for me is around 160 pounds(72 kg) so about 110 grams protein(0.7 * 160 = 112 gr). I am 5'10" (although I am taller now, growing in the past 2-3 years to almost 5'11")
If my ideal body weight is Lean body mass plus fat of 5%(?) then my ideal weight would be about 170 pounds(77 kg) so using your formula 0.8 * 77 = 61 grams protein. therefore my daily fat should be about 110 grams. 61 gr protein = 244 calories * 4 = 976 calories / 9 = 109 grams(20:80 ratio)
I have been reluctant to go that low on protein as my integrative physician thought I had lost to much muscle (I can't find the report from the test right now - if I can find it I will post it here. It was a test where I lay on a bed and they used a combo of my weight? and electricity to determine body composition. i.e. %fat, etc.) which may have been for many reasons, not just low protein.
So that would be 60 grams of protein per day based on resting metabolic rate, so any exercise would need a little extra protein?
Basically if I would eat a normal breakfast (esp since I am on leptin reset) of 2 eggs, one bacon, one sausage, that would be my protein for the day. Now Kruse recommends 50-75 grams of protein in the morning meal during the leptin reset, so if I reduce my breakfast protein to 50 gr(2 eggs, 1 bacon or 2 eggs and 110 grams fish w/DHA), and eat 10-15 grams protein at my second meal that would be in the ballpark. And any carbs (like a salad) would be in the second(late aft./evening) meal. And using these figures it looks like I am eating way to much fat, so 0.5-0.75 a fat bomb (75-100 gr fat) would be more in the ball park.
btw, I am reading a book called 'mastering leptin' by Richards and they mention that (page 184) excess stimulation of gastric inhibitory peptide due to high fat consumption can induce insulin resistance. I'll check that out, but they don't reference it, and it sounds out of the ball park(one of those small studies that used trans-fat instead of real fat). but if true it could account for higher blood glucose due to insulin resistance.
So I will reduce my protein and fat, calorie intake to 1250 calories. seems low but I will try it for a couple of weeks.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Basically if I would eat a normal breakfast (esp since I am on leptin reset) of 2 eggs, one bacon, one sausage, that would be my protein for the day.

If it is a fatty sausage, that breakfast should have around 25-28 grams of protein, hardly your target for the day.

The impression that I'm getting is that it all sounds too complicated when it doesn't have to be that way. It is not normal to put so much weight on the keto diet!

What kind of carbs do you eat, if any? People who try to eliminate carbs completely tend to eat more protein, as it is practically very difficult to eat only fat.

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

It is possible I am eating too much protein, but I did not think it was over the top so to speak.

Here is an excellent article which was quoted earlier, it summarizes the discussions around "moderate protein intake":

Restricting your protein intake will help you live longer and improve your overall health
https://www.sott.net/article/317857-Restricting-your-protein-intake-will-help-you-live-longer-and-improve-your-overall-health

There are some tips on how to calculate your protein intake.

Here is another tool:

Ketogenic Diet – Protein and Carb Counter for Dummies
http://health-matrix.net/2013/02/10/ketogenic-diet-protein-and-carb-counter-for-dummies/

I would count your protein intake for a few days to get a real sense of how much you are eating. Maybe that is the problem, too much protein.

Thanks Gaby
I've read both of those, just re-watching the Rosedale video now. When I was calculating my protein in the previous post i was to lazy to get my nutrition book out, so I used an online site to get protein values. looking over your page and listed protein values, and then double checking with my nutrition book, I see I was way off on the protein. I was thinking that 2 eggs, 1 bacon, 1 sausage was about 60 gr protein, but actually it is half that! That is a typical breakfast for me.
In the past, after looking at protein values for meat/fish I guesstimated that 25% of the weight would be protein, which is the high end in reality. But by estimating protein at 25% that would put me on the low end of protein. eg. If I weighed 100 grams of beef, I would estimate that as 25 gr protein. In actuality it would be more like 15 gr. If it was 10 grams of sardines, I would estimate 2.5 gr protein, in reality it would more like 2.4 gr. It was my trick to avoid going too high in protein. But I will rigorously weigh/check my protein counts for the next while. So at the end of the day I would think "Well I've had 100 grams of protein today" but in reality it would always be less than 100 grams.

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Basically if I would eat a normal breakfast (esp since I am on leptin reset) of 2 eggs, one bacon, one sausage, that would be my protein for the day.

If it is a fatty sausage, that breakfast should have around 25-28 grams of protein, hardly your target for the day.

The impression that I'm getting is that it all sounds too complicated when it doesn't have to be that way. It is not normal to put so much weight on the keto diet!

What kind of carbs do you eat, if any? People who try to eliminate carbs completely tend to eat more protein, as it is practically very difficult to eat only fat.

Hi Gaby. Yes, a way of living/eating can not survive if it is that complicated!
When doing the paleo I just gradually reduced carbs. Going keto was just an extension of a process of carb restriction already in place. But I did get briefly 'anal' with measuring and weighing when I started to get serious about keto, just in order to develop a 'sense' of proportion as to how much of this food(whatever it was) was 100 grams, and how much protein was that, or how much fat that was.
Thank god for Laura and the fat bomb. It has been a staple for years, and I have eaten 150 gr of fat bomb every day pretty well (sometimes i run out and miss a day or two until I make more).
As for carbs for the last two years I have tried to keep them pretty close to zero. Sometimes in the last year i would give up on keto during a birthday celebration or holiday meal, but pretty well i have stuck to minimal carbs. I think my highest carbs have been from the odd vegetable in meat stew, the occasional salad, and xylitol. But with what I have been picking up from Jack Kruse, and the circadian health and wellness show, with regards to my increased light exposure (4 hours plus per day) I have started to eat a salad every day (kale, romaine lettuce, onion, olives, sauerkraut, 1/2-1 egg, feta cheese for flavour, 1/2 tomato, PUFA and MUFA oil dressing are the ingredients) so that is my main carb intake. But that is only recent and doesn't account for the past year/s.
It is a puzzle for me, I really can't figure out what kicks me out of ketosis. The only thing that makes any sense to me is hormonal disruption as in Leptin problems (and therefore cortisol, adrenalin, glycogon, insulin, etc) so that is why I am trying the leptin reset in conjunction with resetting circadian rhythms. I will also really track my protein, and make sure to stay close to good fat:protein ratios. I don't mind focusing on this as I see it is temporary and just a POSTcheck.
Thanks for your help, and others who have replied also. :)

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

btw, I am reading a book called 'mastering leptin' by Richards and they mention that (page 184) excess stimulation of gastric inhibitory peptide due to high fat consumption can induce insulin resistance. I'll check that out, but they don't reference it, and it sounds out of the ball park(one of those small studies that used trans-fat instead of real fat). but if true it could account for higher blood glucose due to insulin resistance.

Being on a high fat diet automatically induces mild insulin resistance as a way of making sure glucose doesn't go into tissues that can be fuelled by ketones instead; leaving the glucose for the brain and central nervous system, which can't get by on ketones. I've never heard it attributed to a gastric inhibitory peptide, but I suppose that's possible. But the point is not to get too bent out of shape about insulin resistance (if it's mild). It's a normal part of being on a ketogenic diet. The real question is why your blood sugar is high if it's not getting it from outside sources. How much xylitol are you eating? Are you big on the "paleo treats"? How's your stress? Have you tested for any food intolerances?

I have been reluctant to go that low on protein as my integrative physician thought I had lost to much
muscle (I can't find the report from the test right now - if I can find it I will post it here. It was a test where I lay on a bed and they used a combo of my weight? and electricity to determine body composition. i.e. %fat, etc.) which may have been for many reasons, not just low protein.

If you're losing muscle, that indicates your body is breaking it down to free up amino acids for some reason. Whether that's because you're low protein, have some sort of stealth infection, or so the body can convert it into glucose is hard to say. It could be a cortisol issue, since cortisol will break down muscle for a quick source of glucose. This makes me think it could be stress, stealth infections or food intolerances.

That said, there are a number of possibilities here, so it's hard to say for sure what might be going on. I'd say keep on digging and experimenting.

 

[Astrocyte]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am curious about your mention of good ketone levels being between 4 and 8. I though ketosis was achieved from level .5 and up? in the past year I have only achieved ketone levels above 4 twice back in Oct 2015 ketosis!

Ketosis below 4 mmol/L won't produce very usefull therapeutic effects like fighting bacteria. We also think that "mild" ketosis is popular because it have low associated risk of acidosis. Over 8 mmol/L become a little tricky and dangerous, anyway your body shall begin to produce insulin again when ketone level goes too high to limit its production (insulin not just regulate glucose but also regulate ketones). We also believe that ketone level shall be >= than glucose level. Since the body will normally not allow you to goes below 3 or 4 mmol/L of glucose, this is another reason. Some person like my spouse produce easily tons of ketones, but other like me have difficulties producing low level even under a strict diet.

About your glucose and ketone reading under fasting (taken first thing in the morning), you may have already remarked that as your ketone level goes higher, your glucose level fall, this is normal. But I shall attract your attention that if we extrapolate, under "normal" high carbs diet, your glucose level will be probably well past 7 mmol/L. It is my opignion that you suffer from diabetes type 2. Have you consulted a doctor about that? I assume you do such diet to mitigate this problem and it is a very good idea if it's the case. With time under ketogenic diet, I believe that your resistance to insulin will decrease, thus lowering your blood glucose level.

 

[Turgon]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am curious about your mention of good ketone levels being between 4 and 8. I though ketosis was achieved from level .5 and up? in the past year I have only achieved ketone levels above 4 twice back in Oct 2015 ketosis!

Ketosis below 4 mmol/L won't produce very usefull therapeutic effects like fighting bacteria.

Really?! Do you have any links. I've never read anything about ketosis fighting off bacteria once a certain threshold of ketone production is reached.

 

[Astrocyte]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Really?! Do you have any links. I've never read anything about ketosis fighting off bacteria once a certain threshold of ketone production is reached.

Potezny, N., Atkinson E. R., Rofe A. M. and Conyers R. A. J. (1981). The inhibition of bacterial cell growth by ketone bodies. Aust J Exp Biol Med Sci., 59, 639

The inhibition of bacterial cell growth by ketone bodies.

Abstract:

The effect of ketone bodies on the growth, in culture, of Escherichia coli was investigated. Both growth and glucose utilisation were inhibited in the presence of 20 mmol/l D-3-hydroxybutyrate. Lower concentrations of D-3-hydroxybutyrate caused proportionally less inhibition of growth. Acetoacetate also inhibited growth but other glycolytic inhibitors and chemical analogues of D-3-hydroxybutyrate either did not inhibit or proved to be too toxic for bacterial growth. Citrate enhanced the ketone body effect. D-3-hydroxybutyrate also inhibited the growth of Klebsiella pneumoniae, Enterobacter aerogenes, Citrobacter freundii and Salmonella typhimurium. The possible relationship between ketone body inhibition of cell growth and oxygen limitation is discussed.

This study is for one ketone only, when we are under ketosis, we produce three; acetoacetate, β-hydroxybutyrate (D-3-hydroxybutyrate) and acetone. If we assume similar activity for each one and similar molarity in blood, we can speculate 3x 8 mmol/L = 24 mmol/L total.

 

[Astrocyte]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

This study is for one ketone only, when we are under ketosis, we produce three; acetoacetate, β-hydroxybutyrate (D-3-hydroxybutyrate) and acetone. If we assume similar activity for each one and similar molarity in blood, we can speculate 3x 8 mmol/L = 24 mmol/L total.

On second thought, maybe acetone shall be excluded and acetoacetate is not present in similar molarity, so disregard this speculation of mine!

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi Gaby. Yes, a way of living/eating can not survive if it is that complicated!

I just remembered that not too long ago, I watched a conference/video of a woman doing the keto diet. She started using a ketone meter and she was surprised to see that coconut was the one thing that was consistently kicking her out of ketosis. So there goes another myth. She was arguing that although coconut oil promotes ketosis in the average person, there would still be personal reactions and/or responses, hence the importance of using a ketone meter.

Also, it is true that quite a lot of people here in the forum gained weight when having a fat bomb per day. Even though quality food is very important, in some respects, a calorie is still a calorie.

 

[Yupo]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Also, it is true that quite a lot of people here in the forum gained weight when having a fat bomb per day. Even though quality food is very important, in some respects, a calorie is still a calorie.

AMEN about a calorie being a calorie! I have gained a lot of weight, but feel good otherwise. I have not been doing fat bombs, but I have been taking in a lot of fat.
I (just this week) started to change my diet to a keto-version of CICO (calories in/calories out). I was a size 4, now I'm a 14. :(
Not all of this weight was gained on the Keto diet, but a good 15-20 lbs was.

I need a little help with my macros, please. I have searched for the answer, but not found it.
Question:
Does the recommended 75% dietary fat intake refer to 75% of consumed calories or to 75% of actual grams of the foods (fat/carb/protein)?

I tend to self medicate with food, unfortunately. Journaling my intake this week has helped me a lot with problem.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Does the recommended 75% dietary fat intake refer to 75% of consumed calories or to 75% of actual grams of the foods (fat/carb/protein)?

How about calculating your protein intake to 1 gram per kilogram of ideal weight per day. Then, aiming for 20-60 grams of carbs (closer to 30-40) and the rest as fat whether it is a fatty meat cut, a fat bomb (ideally egg-free), bone broth, etc. I have done it that way, which is the easy way. Some days you can fast, other days you can overeat (once or twice per week). This is advised so as to keep your metabolism "stimulated". Same food intake every single day can make your thyroid "lazy". Depending on each individual, more carbs can be eaten. Others need to stay at 20 grams of carbs or less.

I'm not sure where you got the 75%, but usually both calories and grams are considered in some keto diet calculators. Most macro calculations are based on grams of protein, fat, or carbs. But the total calories are also considered according to your weight and age.

Here is one of such calculators:

_http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/

I've used this one in the past. I think it was pretty okay, but I ended up consuming less protein and fat. The protein according to Rosedale's research (1 gram per kilo of ideal weight per day) and less fat because it was simply too much. I measured my ketone levels, usually before breakfast and it was always on the very high range. I had to drink lots of water to bring down the ketone levels to a more acceptable range.